NationStates Jolt Archive

So is Joe Lieberman, a DEMOCRAT, lying to us?
The answer to your question is the same as the answer to this question:

Is Joe Lieberman a politician?
Do you think politics requires a certain amount of trust by the public in order to work?

Everyone (with very few exceptions which generally get eyes rolled at them) here contests that politicians are basically the scum of the earth - that they lie, that they are corrupt, that they do everything wrong.

But might that kind of attitude be exactly what causes it in the first place?
If a politician knows that good behaviour will not be rewarded, if he/she knows that it is never even considered that he/she might genuinely represent the people - does that not encourage selfish and ultimately damaging behaviour?

We get the politicians we deserve, don't we?

ther's usually a mix of honest and corrupt. i think the best way is to give politicians the benefit of the doubt, but still keep an eye on them.

Okay corruption exists. Yet they are all still more educated and qualified (and supported by the public). They're the best we have, you don't like them vote them out.

We get the politicians we deserve, don't we?
Oh, yeah. How many American's abuse the system and test the law everyday? McDonalds lawsuits about fat people and hot coffe, people faking injuries to sue (especially with autos), and then our politicians do it and what do we do? We're like: Oh my Gawd, what in the name of bloody hell and Jesus is he doing? Building a bridge to no-where in Alsaka, to an island with 40 people, who rarely leave the island! What gives man?

Here in Finland, I rarely see a person jay walk. They wait for the walk light to turn green, even after the traffic has stopped. Is that not dedication? That's why Finland is one of the least corrupt governments on the planet. And I lost my cell phone yesterday. Guess what? Somebody actually turned it in, and I didn't have to buy a new one and stuff. I can leave my bike in the city, unlocked, and it'll be there when I get back.*

We sure do get the politicians we deserve.

*yes, I realize that America has more people, and thus can have a higher chance of theft and such, but if everyone raised their kids to be well, moral, they don't even have to know the word "God," "Jesus," or anything, the US would be a lot better

Everyone (with very few exceptions which generally get eyes rolled at them) here contests that politicians are basically the scum of the earth - that they lie, that they are corrupt, that they do everything wrong.
Still, at least they're not lawyers. Well, at least some weren't previously lawyers.

This entire site is about a virtual world and how it is run- it's proof positive that the system we have- electing a representative- is at best hundreds of years out of date. With issues openly debated and decided among hundreds of thousands of people, who can be corrupted?

Here in Finland, I rarely see a person jay walk. They wait for the walk light to turn green, even after the traffic has stopped. Is that not dedication? That's why Finland is one of the least corrupt governments on the planet. And I lost my cell phone yesterday. Guess what? Somebody actually turned it in, and I didn't have to buy a new one and stuff. I can leave my bike in the city, unlocked, and it'll be there when I get back.*

We sure do get the politicians we deserve.

*yes, I realize that America has more people, and thus can have a higher chance of theft and such, but if everyone raised their kids to be well, moral, they don't even have to know the word "God," "Jesus," or anything, the US would be a lot better

You make a good point. I was in India not so long ago and the people were horrible, you could see they would steal everything you had if they could run away fast enough and the people I mets racism and hatred to muslims was extreme, I'm sure anyone they would elect is the same. Basically the politicians are just a reflection of the people and society. Its great to go to places like Finland or Japan and meet a vast majority of people who are amazingly polite and helpful.

Its great to go to places like Finland or Japan and meet a vast majority of people who are amazingly polite and helpful.
I've never been to either...but I generally think that you get bad apples everywhere.

At least in Japan for example, they have a sometimes...well, peculiar relationship with outsiders. Polite maybe, but still distanced. You'll never really be integrated.

Still, at least they're not lawyers. Well, at least some weren't previously lawyers.

Yes, being an ex-used-car salesman or an exterminator so much better prepares you for writing and passing legislation. :headbang:

Heh...it's so ingrained within society that I get crap whenever I tell someone i'm a politics student.

Do you think politics requires a certain amount of trust by the public in order to work?

Everyone (with very few exceptions which generally get eyes rolled at them) here contests that politicians are basically the scum of the earth - that they lie, that they are corrupt, that they do everything wrong.

But might that kind of attitude be exactly what causes it in the first place?
If a politician knows that good behaviour will not be rewarded, if he/she knows that it is never even considered that he/she might genuinely represent the people - does that not encourage selfish and ultimately damaging behaviour?

We get the politicians we deserve, don't we?

We do.

People like to bitch about politicians, but then they vote for one's that are slicker and/or run more negative campaigns.

Are politicians all dirty liars and cheats? Well duh. Where the heck have you been for the past four bajillion years?

Heh...it's so ingrained within society that I get crap whenever I tell someone i'm a politics student.
that's stupid, politics is the modern philosophy. i take issue mostly with the reasons behind giving you crap.

and for the record, i know some politicians who are great people and not even slightly corrupt.

that's stupid, politics is the modern philosophy. i take issue mostly with the reasons behind giving you crap.

and for the record, i know some politicians who are great people and not even slightly corrupt.

Amen.

I have no doubt that there are politicians out there who get involved out of a sense of obligation to help their fellow humans, who have great intentions, who are generally honest and forthright when they set out to do their work, and who may even remain that way once in office--but they are few and far between for what I think are two reasons.

The first is just the simple notion that power corrupts and leads one to rationalize all sorts of dishonest behavior in the claimed pursuit of a greater good. Even an honest person can be led down this road of the ends justifying the means.

The second is that even if they aren't corrupted by power, there are too many people who are already corrupt who want power and are willing to do to almost any length to get it, which puts the honest person at a distinct disadvantage. As a result, more dishonest and corrupt people are either elected or gain power through other means than honest people do, and so it's easy to see the stereotype of the dishonest politician brought to life.

and for the record, i know some politicians who are great people and not even slightly corrupt.

You know, I don't doubt you really- but could you name them for me please? Just for kicks.... ;) I'm betting they aren't important or in power.

I have no doubt that there are politicians out there who get involved out of a sense of obligation to help their fellow humans, who have great intentions, who are generally honest and forthright when they set out to do their work, and who may even remain that way once in office--but they are few and far between for what I think are two reasons.

The first is just the simple notion that power corrupts and leads one to rationalize all sorts of dishonest behavior in the claimed pursuit of a greater good. Even an honest person can be led down this road of the ends justifying the means.

The second is that even if they aren't corrupted by power, there are too many people who are already corrupt who want power and are willing to do to almost any length to get it, which puts the honest person at a distinct disadvantage. As a result, more dishonest and corrupt people are either elected or gain power through other means than honest people do, and so it's easy to see the stereotype of the dishonest politician brought to life.

I just want to add that some political systems are far more easily corrupted than others. The American system, for example, doesn't even work unless candidates are corrupt these days. Perhaps not corrupt in a criminal sense, but at least in an ethical sense. It's a blaring conflict of interest to have corporate-sponsored candidates, and much much worse when it's the only way for someone to even become a candidate.

I just want to add that some political systems are far more easily corrupted than others. The American system, for example, doesn't even work unless candidates are corrupt these days. Perhaps not corrupt in a criminal sense, but at least in an ethical sense. It's a blaring conflict of interest to have corporate-sponsored candidates, and much much worse when it's the only way for someone to even become a candidate.
I agree--any system that requires the huge amount of private money to get elected that the US system does, especially on a state-wide or national level, is going to be corrupted simply by the quid pro quo of fundraising.

Yes, being an ex-used-car salesman or an exterminator so much better prepares you for writing and passing legislation. :headbang:

Obviously, what would experience selling unwanted items or eliminating parasites bring to Government?

Hold on......

Prolificacy']Obviously, what would experience selling unwanted items or eliminating parasites bring to Government?

Hold on......
Funny...

But TCT has a point. For example, there's not a doubt in my mind that stemcell research would've passed if the politicians had a clue what it was about. Knowledge beyond that of the ironage is imperative if you want to make decisions based on facts these days.

If you're put in a position where you make, alter or approve legislation, you better have the education. Otherwise you don't have a snowballs chance in hell of understanding what you're doing. If you sit with the responsibility of a ministry in your hands, it's simply unacceptable if you have to rely on your underlings to understand what they're doing. You need to be able to understand what's getting done, otherwise you cannot fulfull your responsibility to the public.

I wouldn't want a used car salesman to handle changes in criminal law in my country. If I can't understand half the shit being done, what chance does another random person without appropriate education have?

Do you think that's desirable for a legal system?

that's stupid, politics is the modern philosophy. i take issue mostly with the reasons behind giving you crap.

and for the record, i know some politicians who are great people and not even slightly corrupt.

Hey, it's not like I pay what they have to say any heed. :p

Generally, the stuff that comes out of a politician's mouth is optimized to get the politician elected (or re-elected), or to give the politician's party an advantage in that regard (unless the politician says something really stupid).

Thus, all politicians are optimized in their ability to get elected - not in their ability to perform the will of the constituency, use good judgment, run a country, etc.

You really need to dispense with what a politician says - and concentrate solely on what they do.

What do they actually present as legislation? What do they vote for? And what policy decisions do they implement?

Listening to them talk, and assuming they will follow through is an exercise in futility.

You can take back words, but you can't take back a policy decision - you can't take back a vote, and you can't take back an action.

Do you think politics requires a certain amount of trust by the public in order to work?
Depends on what you mean by "work." I say no.

Everyone (with very few exceptions which generally get eyes rolled at them) here contests that politicians are basically the scum of the earth - that they lie, that they are corrupt, that they do everything wrong.
Exactly! So let's give them more power and twenty more agencies to oversee and more tax dollars and a bigger budget and... oh wait.

Honestly, the hypocrisy of saying "Politicians suck" and then demanding that we allow them to gather exasperating powers is just what I've come to expect of the left. And suggesting that your politicians are some sort of shining beacon of humanity is only more suspect. I've never been able to understand the "logic" that suggests we curb corruption by doubling its opportunities and tripling its potential profits.

But might that kind of attitude be exactly what causes it in the first place?
If a politician knows that good behaviour will not be rewarded, if he/she knows that it is never even considered that he/she might genuinely represent the people - does that not encourage selfish and ultimately damaging behaviour?

We get the politicians we deserve, don't we?
Well, yeah. George Carlin had a few [typically] astute observations on the subject: when you have arrogant, ignorant citizens, you will [under a Democracy] invariably end up with arrogant, ignorant politicans who go to office seemingly for the sole purpose of munging everything up with their boundless incompetence. Garbage in, garbage out.

Politician is a euphemism for crook.

Are politicians all dirty liars and cheats? Well duh. Where the heck have you been for the past four bajillion years?

Honest politicians through history (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Honest_politicians)


(See also the entry about Lawyers (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Lawyer) ) :)

All politicians are, to a greater or lesser extent, liars and crooks.

Japan and meet a vast majority of people who are amazingly polite and helpful.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Please come visit Japan. You will be incredibly shocked.

And yes, Cat-Tribe, being an exterminator qualifies you as a great politician, as I personally met the great extermanator DeLay. He is a great politician in the worst sense.



Riddle me this: How do you know if a politician is lieing? It's lips are moving.