NationStates Jolt Archive

Reported by the BBC World, on streaming radio, Wednesday, November 30

Cuba has recently started a new program with its South American neighbors. Cuba offers up its medical expertise and thousands of people in poor regions of SA nations (so far Venezuela and Argentina) get free surgery to restore their eyesite. The details of this deal have not yet been released, but Cuba does benefit financially from the deals.





Comments?

I wish I had more information on this.

I love South American politics, they are so fascinating to me.

*waits for the "cuba is teh evil" crowd*

Where are these surgeries going to take place?

Where are these surgeries going to take place?

What is with these questions? Who are you, do you want us to think you are a troublemaker?

Move along now - *prod's TSI with AK47*- move along now and go work hard for the motherland, Father Fidel knows what's best for you.

What is with these questions? Who are you, do you want us to think you are a troublemaker?

Move along now - *prod's TSI with AK47*- move along now and go work hard for the motherland, Father Fidel knows what's best for you.

Ironically, if you change "the motherland" to "the economy" and "Father Fidel" for "King George", the idea translates well to America.

Although Father Fidel is a little catchier...that aliteration!

Kick-ass, way to go Cuba. See, they ain't all bad :p

Certainly not as bad as some of our business parteners (China, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait).

I assume the point of this is to show you can be successful without bowing to US influence and letting western companies have free run of your economy, and of increase solidarity amoungst South Americans.

Ironically, if you change "the motherland" to "the economy" and "Father Fidel" for "King George", the idea translates well to America.

Although Father Fidel is a little catchier...that aliteration!
Hmmm, I don't recall anyone in the USA being forced by government entities to go to work while being roughed up with an M-16 in recent years...no, decades...no, wait, it has NEVER happened in American history.

In the meantime, Fidel and his bedpartner Hugo are experts at physically roughing up whatever opposition arises.

Hmmm, I don't recall anyone in the USA being forced by government entities to go to work while being roughed up with an M-16 in recent years...no, decades...no, wait, it has NEVER happened in American history.

Bullshit. Bullshit bullshit bullshit bullshit bullsht.

Opsition has never been roughed up in the US? Ha!

What about the gov sending in national guard to break up strikes with bullets?
What about WWI, where law enforcement organized mobs of citizens to illegaly spy on, attack, and terrorize those who didn't show enough support of the war or the government?
What about the FBI giving the KKK info on the stops of the freedom riders and promising them not to interfear with their beatings?
What about all through Red Scare?

Learn some history.

Kick-ass, way to go Cuba. See, they ain't all bad :p

Certainly not as bad as some of our business parteners (China, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait).

I assume the point of this is to show you can be successful without bowing to US influence and letting western companies have free run of your economy, and of increase solidarity amoungst South Americans.


Yeah all one needs to be a successful communist nation like cuba is fifty or so years of economic support from another communist country, Sounds like a solid plan to me.

If you want a more recent example, the Utah SWAT team raided a legal music event on private property, manhandled many people, forced the crowd to disperse, and threatened people with automatic weapons.

Yeah all one needs to be a successful communist nation like cuba is fifty or so years of economic support from another communist country, Sounds like a solid plan to me.

Tell me, who's supporting Cuba right now? Have they had forgien support for the past decade and a half, since the Soviet Union broke up?

And turning your nation into economic colony and military base of the US is a great way to go ::sarcasm::

If you want a more recent example, the Utah SWAT team raided a legal music event on private property, manhandled many people, forced the crowd to disperse, and threatened people with automatic weapons.

They broke up a music party on private property? Or did they break up and send home the people at a beer and pot fest of underage teens behind someone's house who's parents were gone for the weekend?



:p

They broke up a music party on private property? Or did they break up and send home the people at a beer and pot fest of underage teens behind someone's house who's parents were gone for the weekend?



:p


Accully, the owners were home, hey had opened their ranch for the event, which they had a permit for.

There were security guards at the gates who searched all people comming in and confescated all illegal items.

It was an accual event, not a bunch of drunk teens behind an empty house. The property owners had applied for an recieved a permit to hold this event.

There goes your baseless assumtions.

I think it's a fiendishly clever, secret plan by Cuba. They'll insert a microchip whilst each patient is under the anaesthetic. In 3-6 months time, after the patients have recovered from their surgery, Fidel will activate their chips. Bingo, an instantaneous army of fit, healthy, robot-like anti-capitalist infiltrators/warriors. It's pure genious I tell you! ;)

Where are these surgeries going to take place?

Venezuela already got several thousand, Argentina is in the works.

Cuba trading what they have for what they want and need. Sounds like capitalism.

Pity healthcare isn't as good for Cubans: http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

http://www.therealcuba.com/mini-me1.GIF

Bullshit. Bullshit bullshit bullshit bullshit bullsht.Well, I know already what "intellectual prowess" I am facing. Let's dissect your statement...

Opsition has never been roughed up in the US? Ha!Let's see some "examples"...hopefully you can back them up with facts...

What about the gov sending in national guard to break up strikes with bullets?You must be referring to the Kent State shootings, which were carried out by the State National Guard...in a state run at the time by... Democrats...this will come to play again, read on. By the way, until the National Guard is brought under Federal control, they act at the whim of the State Governors. Laying Kent State at the Federal feet is not very intellectually honest.
What about WWI, where law enforcement organized mobs of citizens to illegaly spy on, attack, and terrorize those who didn't show enough support of the war or the government?Really? Do you have proof of this? I am actually disappointed in you...I thought you would bring out the incident with the WWI vets who were roughed up law enforcement several years after the war...but they were roughed up when they rioted, after disobeying police orders to disperse from the Mall in Washington DC. Again, laying this at the feet of the Federal government is not very intellectually honest.

What about the FBI giving the KKK info on the stops of the freedom riders and promising them not to interfear with their beatings?I have absolutely no idea what you're referring to in this case. Freedom riders? You need to give some actual link to this, but I will not hold my breath waiting for those links.

What about all through Red Scare?What about it? Joseph McCarthy, think what you may about his methods, did this country a service by identifying and unmasking the level of infiltration into the US Government and throughout American society in general that achieved by the KGB after WWII. Were his methods suspect at best? Sure, but McCarthy certainly had the Nation's best interests at heart...unlike certain Democrats and other assorted American Leftists today.

Learn some history.
Funny you should say that. I have given you a few items of homework, and remember, if you post something you can't prove (and I am willing to wager most of what you posted here falls into that category,) go back to your first line.

I have absolutely no idea what you're referring to in this case. Freedom riders? You need to give some actual link to this, but I will not hold my breath waiting for those links.

You claim to know history, yet do not know about the freedom riders? Just google it. ;)

What about it? Joseph McCarthy, think what you may about his methods, did this country a service by identifying and unmasking the level of infiltration into the US Government and throughout American society in general that achieved by the KGB after WWII. Were his methods suspect at best? Sure, but McCarthy certainly had the Nation's best interests at heart...unlike certain Democrats and other assorted American Leftists today.

And WTF? The man was a maniac! Most of the people he "unmasked" were not KGB agents, not affiliated with them, and were completely innocent of any charge! And he had that infamous list of communists in the government, that he would never reveal... ever wonder why?

This is not to say I completely agree with Katzistanza's view either, but I'll get around to that later.

I have absolutely no idea what you're referring to in this case. Freedom riders? You need to give some actual link to this, but I will not hold my breath waiting for those links.

What about it? Joseph McCarthy, think what you may about his methods, did this country a service by identifying and unmasking the level of infiltration into the US Government and throughout American society in general that achieved by the KGB after WWII. Were his methods suspect at best? Sure, but McCarthy certainly had the Nation's best interests at heart...unlike certain Democrats and other assorted American Leftists today.

You know nothing about Freedom Riders, but defend Joseph McCarthy.... I don't think we really need to read anymore of your posts to know your position.

PS. Freedom Riders....civil rights movement....ever heard of it?

Well, I know already what "intellectual prowess" I am facing. Let's dissect your statement...

That was juvinile of me, yes, and I apologize.


You must be referring to the Kent State shootings, which were carried out by the State National Guard...in a state run at the time by... Democrats...this will come to play again, read on. By the way, until the National Guard is brought under Federal control, they act at the whim of the State Governors. Laying Kent State at the Federal feet is not very intellectually honest.

I wasn't refering to Kent State. I was refering more the Ludlow and the like.

As to your "state" vs. "federal" argument, I never tried to lay the actions of the national guard at the federal government's feet. The asertion that I was contending was that "the opposition being roughed up" doesn't happen in America.

Really? Do you have proof of this? I am actually disappointed in you...I thought you would bring out the incident with the WWI vets who were roughed up law enforcement several years after the war...but they were roughed up when they rioted, after disobeying police orders to disperse from the Mall in Washington DC. Again, laying this at the feet of the Federal government is not very intellectually honest.

I'll have a source for you, quoted and with page number, within 24 hours.


I have absolutely no idea what you're referring to in this case. Freedom riders? You need to give some actual link to this, but I will not hold my breath waiting for those links.

This little tidbit I come across on one of those encyclopedia sites durring a 10th grade english project on J. Edgar Hoover. As I no longer attend high school, I no longer have acess to that specific database. I'll try to find another source for you.

The freedom riders were a group of civil rights activists riding the bus system across the country, their final destination DC, I believe, raising support for civil rights for blacks.

What about it? Joseph McCarthy, think what you may about his methods, did this country a service by identifying and unmasking the level of infiltration into the US Government and throughout American society in general that achieved by the KGB after WWII. Were his methods suspect at best? Sure, but McCarthy certainly had the Nation's best interests at heart...unlike certain Democrats and other assorted American Leftists today.

I'm not so much talking about McCarthy, as the many communist demonstrations, rallies, and strikes that were attacked by police, private security, or other groups (such as the skinheads).

As for McCarthy himself, the ends don't justify the means.


Funny you should say that. I have given you a few items of homework, and remember, if you post something you can't prove (and I am willing to wager most of what you posted here falls into that category,) go back to your first line.

You have indeed given me some homework, I'll get right on it. I'll try to have some sources for you within 24 hours.

On J. Edgar Hoover and the Civil Rights Movement:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAhooverE.htm

"Aware of the planned violence weeks in advance, the FBI did nothing to stop it and had actually given the Birmingham police details regarding the Freedom Rider's schedule, knowing full well that at least one law enforcement officer relayed everything to the Klan."

http://www.kooriweb.org/foley/essays/essay_14.html

http://www.jerryjazzmusician.com/mainHTML.cfm?page=mcwhorter.html

http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/12/06/specials/branch-waters.html

"Neither local police or federal agents intervened in the ambush, and in fact the Birmingham Police Department informally agreed to allow the Klansmen up to 20 minutes in which to assault the Freedom Riders before police would arrive on the scene."

http://www.publiceye.org/huntred/Hunt_For_Red_Menace-02.html

Any search on MLK, J. Edgar Hoover, the Freedom Riders, The Civil Rights Movement and the FBI, or Eugine "Bull" Conner will bring up multiple refrences to what I was refering to.

Any in-depth study on J.E.H. and the FBI's activites durring his leadership will turn up some chilling results.

so that leaves example 1, 3, and 4

1) will you concide that the Ludlow Massacare happened, as it can be found it pretty much any history text?

3) I'll have a source quoted for you tomarrow.

4) I had though this was common knowledge, but I'll see if I can find some spacific examples, if you'd like?

Pity healthcare isn't as good for Cubans

Funny you should say that. I've been to Cuba. I've talked to Cubans who were highly critical of their government. They all said they did have access to excellent healthcare. And, unlike in some countries, the level of healthcare you receive isn't dependent on your income.

The fact is pretty much undisputed. Despite the US embargo which leaves them critically short of medical supplies, Cubans match the US in terms of life expectancy. A pretty astonishing feat.

Funny you should say that. I've been to Cuba. I've talked to Cubans who were highly critical of their government. They all said they did have access to excellent healthcare. And, unlike in some countries, the level of healthcare you receive isn't dependent on your income.

The fact is pretty much undisputed. Despite the US embargo which leaves them critically short of medical supplies, Cubans match the US in terms of life expectancy. A pretty astonishing feat.

Bizarre isn't it? Shades of grey in an issue can just confuse people though, so maybe you'd be better not pointing out the facts in case you fuse a few neocons brains :p

*waits for the "cuba is teh evil" crowd*

Yes, in cuba for the foreigners and governing elite hospitals, restaurants and hotels, were the average Cuban Citizens like my family are not allowed with
or without Cuban pesos their national currency, not even with Dollars or Euros sent to them by thier oversees relatives.


Cubans in Cuba have to ask thier Cuban overseeas relatives to send them medicine, eye glasses and even toilet paper, toilet paper I am not exsagerating.

Yes, in cuba for the foreigners and governing elite hospitals, restaurants and hotels, were the average Cuban Citizens like my family are not allowed with
or without Cuban pesos their national currency, not even with Dollars or Euros sent to them by thier oversees relatives.


Cubans in Cuba have to ask thier Cuban overseeas relatives to send them medicine, eye glasses and even toilet paper, toilet paper I am not exsagerating.

Well, I stand corrected. Except just about every country in the West has selective healthcare of some sort, derived from the ability to pay.

And as for the shortages, well perhaps the good old US of A's boycotting doesn't help that situation much?

OMG! Teh evil commies helping people! Helping others is wrong, encourages laziness!

Hmmm, I don't recall anyone in the USA being forced by government entities to go to work while being roughed up with an M-16 in recent years...no, decades...no, wait, it has NEVER happened in American history.

In the meantime, Fidel and his bedpartner Hugo are experts at physically roughing up whatever opposition arises.

Apparently, you have never heard of the labor wars that occurred in the US. Attempts to unionize and strike were met with force in the early 20th Century.

http://www.reapinc.org/History.html
http://www.boisestate.edu/history/cityhistorian/2galleries_haywood/laborwars1.html
http://www.matewan.com/History/battle.htm
http://www.umwa.org/history/lattimer.shtml
http://www.umwa.org/history/ludlow.shtml

What about it? Joseph McCarthy, think what you may about his methods, did this country a service by identifying and unmasking the level of infiltration into the US Government and throughout American society in general that achieved by the KGB after WWII. Were his methods suspect at best? Sure, but McCarthy certainly had the Nation's best interests at heart...unlike certain Democrats and other assorted American Leftists today.


:headbang: :headbang:

Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?

Well, I stand corrected. Except just about every country in the West has selective healthcare of some sort, derived from the ability to pay.

And as for the shortages, well perhaps the good old US of A's boycotting doesn't help that situation much?

As I have posted many times before, the so called embargo has a big hole, Cuba trades with the European Union nations, Canada, Australia, New Zeeland, Japan, Mexico, Venezuela, China, and others including the USA,
Cuba buys hundreds of millions of $ Dollars in goods from the USA on a
cash as you buy basis.

American subduary companys oround the world trade with Cuba, in Cuba there are hard currency stores with all kinds of American brand products
sold to the Cuban people only in convertible Cuban Pesos, that is hard foreing currency like Dollars and Euros sent by thier overseeas relatives exchanged by the Cuban government into Cuban Convertible Pesos, not in regular Cuban Pesos thier national currency.

Over to million European, and other tourists visit Cuba each year, staying in
zones for tourists only, hotels, restaurants and hospitals for tourists only.

The only thing left of the so called embargo is a lack of American Credits,
while Cuba receives credits from Europe and other nations, sometimes it defaults on them, re negotiates them, or pays the minimum just to get by.

Cuba owes those nations billions of $ Dollars worth.

Some businesses who have done business in Cuba have left because the Cuban government gives them a hard time in collecting thier profits.

Foreign companys who invest in Cuba have to pay the Cuban government in hard currency per worker, a Cuban government agency hires the workers and pays them in Cuban Pesos alot less than they would get if the foreing company would pay them in that hard currency, Cuban workers are not allowed to strike or protest or chanllenge those conditions.

What about it? Joseph McCarthy, think what you may about his methods, did this country a service by identifying and unmasking the level of infiltration into the US Government and throughout American society in general that achieved by the KGB after WWII.

You mean the KGB agents he exposed like Red Ronnie Reagan? Oh yeah ... McCarthy did a *faaabulous* job. I'm going back to the real world now ... yours sucks.

Ironically, if you change "the motherland" to "the economy" and "Father Fidel" for "King George", the idea translates well to America.

Although Father Fidel is a little catchier...that aliteration!

Father Fidel? As in Father Christmas? Ah! So Cuba is the real North pole, and Fidel is Sancta Claus! Excuse me, I have a letter to write... :D

And, again, this is a silly posting. Please ignore it and it might go away by itself. But Christmas is comming, that much is true!

Reported by the BBC World, on streaming radio, Wednesday, November 30

Cuba has recently started a new program with its South American neighbors. Cuba offers up its medical expertise and thousands of people in poor regions of SA nations (so far Venezuela and Argentina) get free surgery to restore their eyesite. The details of this deal have not yet been released, but Cuba does benefit financially from the deals.

Comments?

They exported doctors to Africa for a long time.

Over time, they also sent thousands of soldiers, as mercenaries, also for money.

I can hardly wait for history to repeat itself.

They exported doctors to Africa for a long time.

Over time, they also sent thousands of soldiers, as mercenaries, also for money.

I can hardly wait for history to repeat itself.

Yes, they did send doctors and soldiers, but it was the CIA who sent the mercenaries.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/17/spotlight/

Yes, they did send doctors and soldiers, but it was the CIA who sent the mercenaries.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/17/spotlight/

You're forgetting the thousands of Cuban troops sent to Angola, with payment for their services sent directly to Cuba, aren't you?

What about it? Joseph McCarthy, think what you may about his methods, did this country a service by identifying and unmasking the level of infiltration into the US Government and throughout American society in general that achieved by the KGB after WWII. Were his methods suspect at best? Sure, but McCarthy certainly had the Nation's best interests at heart...unlike certain Democrats and other assorted American Leftists today.


Well, by that logic you could justify Castro's uncovering and confinement of "capitalist infiltrators" and counter-revolutionists. He certainly has the Nation's best interests at heart.

As I have posted many times before, the so called embargo has a big hole, Cuba trades with the European Union nations, Canada, Australia, New Zeeland, Japan, Mexico, Venezuela, China, and others including the USA,
Cuba buys hundreds of millions of $ Dollars in goods from the USA on a
cash as you buy basis.

American subduary companys oround the world trade with Cuba, in Cuba there are hard currency stores with all kinds of American brand products
sold to the Cuban people only in convertible Cuban Pesos, that is hard foreing currency like Dollars and Euros sent by thier overseeas relatives exchanged by the Cuban government into Cuban Convertible Pesos, not in regular Cuban Pesos thier national currency.

Over to million European, and other tourists visit Cuba each year, staying in
zones for tourists only, hotels, restaurants and hospitals for tourists only.

As far as I know, any USian company that does business with Cuba is breaking USian law, and subject to punitive measures. That includes subsidiary comapnies, as well.

It is true that there are places in Cuba that are only open to tourists, but there are also resources only available to Cuban citizens, and these provide similar goods and services at a cost that Cubans can afford.

You're forgetting the thousands of Cuban troops sent to Angola, with payment for their services sent directly to Cuba, aren't you?

So if a soldier gets paid, he or she is automatically a mercenary? That would mean that the US army is comprised solely of mercenaries.

You're forgetting the thousands of Cuban troops sent to Angola, with payment for their services sent directly to Cuba, aren't you?


Ooooohhhhhhh teh EVIL commie bastiches!

Not like the lack of mercenaries in Iraq right? Doing unnoficial things like, say protecting the entire CPA including americans such as Paul Bremmer during his entire tenure right? Not that they were recruited from the military either right?

Oh wait - they're called "Contracters" now so it's not the same thing at all......

So if a soldier gets paid, he or she is automatically a mercenary? That would mean that the US army is comprised solely of mercenaries.
No, you're missing the point.

Cuba was paid, mostly by the USSR, to send troops to train and fight in Angola. It was a major source of income for Cuba.

That's why after the First Gulf War, when the King of Saudi Arabia offered to pay US soldiers 1000 dollars each as a reward for a job well done, then-President Bush (the dad) said "No" because it would have made us mercenaries.

No, you're missing the point.

Cuba was paid, mostly by the USSR, to send troops to train and fight in Angola. It was a major source of income for Cuba.

That's why after the First Gulf War, when the King of Saudi Arabia offered to pay US soldiers 1000 dollars each as a reward for a job well done, then-President Bush (the dad) said "No" because it would have made us mercenaries.

Really, how odd. I think I'm going to need a credible link for the USSR thing.

By the way, when you say President Bush, one assumes you mean Georg Bush Sr.

When people discuss the current president, people just say Bush.

Really, how odd. I think I'm going to need a credible link for the USSR thing.

By the way, when you say President Bush, one assumes you mean Georg Bush Sr.

When people discuss the current president, people just say Bush.

The USSR paying for Cuban soldiery is a long-standing, widely known, and indisputable fact.

Yes, I put "The dad" in parentheses in my post.

It's a matter of the following:

If your country sends you, and they pay you as a soldier, and that's it, it's legal. If a third party pays either you or your country for the service, you are a mercenary. If you are not an official member of the armed forces of your country, and you are paid to do combat, you are a mercenary.

By treaty and convention, you can pay your own soldiers. With your own money.

Castro's Cuban mercenaries «bring a certain stability to Angola» - Andrew Young, US Ambassador to the United Nations, quoted in Time, April 25, 1977

http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/mercenaries,0.pdf (see Box 1)

http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/archives_roll/2003_10-12/book/book_hemenway_cuba.html

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r102:H02MY1-55:

I could go on...

So Kimchi, if soldiers are sent to fight a war and the bill is picked up by other countries, then does that make the US involvment in Kuwait in the early 90s a mercenary action?

After all, the bulk of US costs WERE covered by other countries?

And Rummy and Co were certainly quite clear at the start of the current Iraq war that he expected that some military occupation costs as well as reconstruction would be covered through oil revenues. the fact that they weren't doesn't mitigate the fact that it was inteded to happen that way.

So Kimchi, if soldiers are sent to fight a war and the bill is picked up by other countries, then does that make the US involvment in Kuwait in the early 90s a mercenary action?

After all, the bulk of US costs WERE covered by other countries?

And Rummy and Co were certainly quite clear at the start of the current Iraq war that he expected that some military occupation costs as well as reconstruction would be covered through oil revenues. the fact that they weren't doesn't mitigate the fact that it was inteded to happen that way.

You can have someone pay for the gas, or for the weapons, or for maintenance costs.

It's all accounting. But the Cubans and the USSR were rather open about the whole thing - they were hiring troops and paying them.

You can have someone pay for the gas, or for the weapons, or for maintenance costs.

It's all accounting. But the Cubans and the USSR were rather open about the whole thing - they were hiring troops and paying them.


And the US doesn't hire troops and pay them?

How many paramilitaries are receiving paycheques from federal channels in IRaq right now? And how many of them are recruited directly from the US military?

It's not like this is a big secret either right?

And the US doesn't hire troops and pay them?

How many paramilitaries are receiving paycheques from federal channels in IRaq right now? And how many of them are recruited directly from the US military?

It's not like this is a big secret either right?

Hiring private security contractors is hiring mercenaries.

Hiring mercenaries is not illegal. It's a longstanding tradition in the UK SAS and Royal Marines to let individual soldiers go on extended unpaid leave - while they are encouraged to join mercenary outfits around the world to gain combat experience. Then they return to their units.

I'm making the point that when Cuba sends "doctors" it usually sends "mercenaries" as well. The so-called "free" program composed of "volunteers" has in the past actually been a money making business.

Bulgaria, for example, had a similar program for supplying "volunteers" to work in other countries. Bulgaria was paid.

Hiring private security contractors is hiring mercenaries.

Hiring mercenaries is not illegal. It's a longstanding tradition in the UK SAS and Royal Marines to let individual soldiers go on extended unpaid leave - while they are encouraged to join mercenary outfits around the world to gain combat experience. Then they return to their units.

I'm making the point that when Cuba sends "doctors" it usually sends "mercenaries" as well. The so-called "free" program composed of "volunteers" has in the past actually been a money making business.

Bulgaria, for example, had a similar program for supplying "volunteers" to work in other countries. Bulgaria was paid.

Ahhh....so THAT must be why the US turned down Castros offers of medical help after Katrina... they were afraid of the inevitable invasion of the Cuban Army!!!!!!

:D

Just curious, but how many countries in central america got "technical advisors" at the same time as they got USAID help on health issues during the cold war?

Not passing judgement one way or the other, just pointing out that it doesn't seem to have been a terribly one-sided practice by the other side....

Ahhh....so THAT must be why the US turned down Castros offers of medical help after Katrina... they were afraid of the inevitable invasion of the Cuban Army!!!!!!

:D

Just curious, but how many countries in central america got "technical advisors" at the same time as they got USAID help on health issues during the cold war?

Not passing judgement one way or the other, just pointing out that it doesn't seem to have been a terribly one-sided practice by the other side....

The difference is that the US doesn't charge you for the technical advisors.

Oh, well that's OK then.....makes it all SOOOOOOO different!

:rolleyes:


Now then, how was the technical aid funded in Nicaragua again? I don't remember.... shall you ask Ollie North or shall I?

Oh, well that's OK then.....makes it all SOOOOOOO different!

:rolleyes:

Now then, how was the technical aid funded in Nicaragua again? I don't remember.... shall you ask Ollie North or shall I?

Once again, the locals didn't pay for it - the US "arranged" some creative funding. Probably why there was an investigation.

Oh, well that's OK then.....makes it all SOOOOOOO different!

:rolleyes:


Now then, how was the technical aid funded in Nicaragua again? I don't remember.... shall you ask Ollie North or shall I?

Just because it's free don't mean it ain't good!

Yes, in cuba for the foreigners and governing elite hospitals, restaurants and hotels, were the average Cuban Citizens like my family are not allowed with
or without Cuban pesos their national currency, not even with Dollars or Euros sent to them by thier oversees relatives.


Cubans in Cuba have to ask thier Cuban overseeas relatives to send them medicine, eye glasses and even toilet paper, toilet paper I am not exsagerating.

Do you live in Cuba currently? Or are you a former resident?

Apparently, you have never heard of the labor wars that occurred in the US. Attempts to unionize and strike were met with force in the early 20th Century.

http://www.reapinc.org/History.html
http://www.boisestate.edu/history/cityhistorian/2galleries_haywood/laborwars1.html
http://www.matewan.com/History/battle.htm
http://www.umwa.org/history/lattimer.shtml
http://www.umwa.org/history/ludlow.shtml

Cat-Tribe took care of labor for me, I suppose all that leaves me is the WWI mobs, which I'll have in a jiffy. There goes your claim that I'd get no sources :p

The difference is that the US doesn't charge you for the technical advisors.

No, you just have to open your economy to US corperate control :p

Anyway, the Cubans sent troop because the Angolans asked them to.
And untill Cuban troops are sent into Africa again, I'm ganna assume these past couple of dacades of free doctors are nothing more and nothing less then just that.

*waits for the "cuba is teh evil" crowd*

Cuba is teh evil!

Anyway, the Cubans sent troop because the Angolans asked them to.

And paid them, too. They weren't volunteers.

And paid them, too. They weren't volunteers.

And it should be noted that the Angolan government asked them, not the Angolan people. The Angolan people viewed the Cuban intervention as a form of imperialism.

...

It's all accounting. But the Cubans and the USSR were rather open about the whole thing - they were hiring troops and paying them.
Actually we weren't, and the Angola business is much more legally complicated. The Cubans in Angola were not mercenaries -- after all, they were sent on official duty as members of the Cuban armed forces.

One wonders whether the 'Chinese volunteers' of the Korean War were legally mercenaries, however. Was North Korea paying them?

And paid them, too. They weren't volunteers.

never said they were.

Actually we weren't, and the Angola business is much more legally complicated. The Cubans in Angola were not mercenaries -- after all, they were sent on official duty as members of the Cuban armed forces.

One wonders whether the 'Chinese volunteers' of the Korean War were legally mercenaries, however. Was North Korea paying them?
We'll never know.

Besides, being a mercenary is legal. You just don't enjoy certain protections under the Geneva Conventions.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that when Cuba sends doctors, that usually is not all they send.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that when Cuba sends doctors, that usually is not all they send.

Exactly. They also send military advisors, "teachers" (propagandists/indoctrinators, really), etc.

Tell me, who's supporting Cuba right now? Have they had forgien support for the past decade and a half, since the Soviet Union broke up?

And turning your nation into economic colony and military base of the US is a great way to go ::sarcasm::



That was awesome you never even acknowledged that fac that yes they were supported by the soviet union, way to go. And yes they still recieve support from other nations, communist china for one. As for the sarcadm I appluad your effort in changing the subject but you only get a c+ for content.

Really? Do you have proof of this? I am actually disappointed in you...I thought you would bring out the incident with the WWI vets who were roughed up law enforcement several years after the war...but they were roughed up when they rioted, after disobeying police orders to disperse from the Mall in Washington DC. Again, laying this at the feet of the Federal government is not very intellectually honest.

My great great grandfather, a German immigrant and pastor, was dragged out of his church and severely beaten by such a mob.

...

Besides, being a mercenary is legal. You just don't enjoy certain protections under the Geneva Conventions.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that when Cuba sends doctors, that usually is not all they send.
Being a mercenary is sometimes legal, sometimes not. A country may decide that a captured combatant is a mercenary and, therefore, an unlawful combatant -- and try him as a criminal. The Angolan government did just that with several Britons in the 1970s, IIRC.

As for Cuba, yes.

Being a mercenary is sometimes legal, sometimes not.

It's legal as long as you don't get caught...

http://www.therealcuba.com/

Scroll down and see what Castro's boy are really doing in Venezuela.

It's legal as long as you don't get caught...
A good summing-up. :)

That was awesome you never even acknowledged that fac that yes they were supported by the soviet union, way to go. And yes they still recieve support from other nations, communist china for one. As for the sarcadm I appluad your effort in changing the subject but you only get a c+ for content.


I figured it was common knowledge that they recieved support from the USSR, and my post reflected that.

Can you provide me a link as to the support they get from China?

Also, no new nation, capitalist or communist or anything in between, thrives and is successful without help from bigger nations in this day and age.

As for the sarcasm, I was responding to your o-so-witty one liner a few pages back. And I was pointing out that getting the US to be your piggybank is no better then relying on the USSR.

http://www.therealcuba.com/

Scroll down and see what Castro's boy are really doing in Venezuela.


Yes, because a site called "the real cuba" is ganna be unbiased and fair ::rollseyes::

I liked how they get their panties in a twist about the american air national guardsman who Cuba killed in the 60s, but neglect to mention that he was shot down while bombing Cuban farms and feilds.

:fluffle: cuba :fluffle:


THEY WERE SHOOTING AT UNARMED MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN!
cos that never happens in the West. people here hand out candy in the streets :rolleyes:

:fluffle: cuba :fluffle:



cos that never happens in the West. people here hand out candy in the streets :rolleyes:

Ever read Against All Hope?

The 21st century looks rather cloudy for the USA when it comes to imposing its diminishing imperialist influence on Latin America. More projects like this one are already taking place, for example the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas is already replacing the FTAA which was 'buried' by Hugo Chavez and Nestor Kirchner in Argentina not so long ago when Emperor George had to leave the Summit of the Americas through the back door (i laughed when i saw his face of humiliation).

On energy plans, well the region has plenty of resources most of which are now free from American hands and Hugo is building an energy grid through the whole of the Sub-continent. two weeks ago he signed the construction of a pipeline which will connect Caracas to Buenos Aires and in the future Brasilia will be anexed to it. Last week, while in Venezuela, America's best ally in the region, Colombian president Alvaro Uribe also signed the construction of a gasline which will connect the north of Colombia with Maracaibo Lake, this will eventually be extended to the Colombian port of Buenaventura on the pacific coast so that Venezuelan oil can be shipped directly to China through Colombia

The new television channel, Telesur created by Cuba, Venezuela, Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil is a project which is aimed at replacing CNN, of course, this is not liked by Washington (i bet it's not going to be long before Bush tells Blair that he wants to bomb the HQ of Telesur, just like what he wanted with Al Jazeera,is this free media? yeah right!*sarcasm*)

Petro Caribe is also another project which involves Cuba, basically, Cuba will provide Venezuela with top doctors in exchange for cheap oil which i think is one of the best 21st Socialist initiatives.

It's all going from bad to worse for Bush and Condi, there are 12 presidential elections due to take place in Latin America over the end of this year and the whole of 2006, from this, at least 10 are expected to elect left wing candidates (apart from Colombia and Paraguay i think)

Do you know what this tells me? that Latin America is fighting and winning its second independence war, 200 years ago it broke free from the hands of Colonialism, this time it's rapidly breaking free from the hands of Imperialism. I dream of the day when the South American Commuinity of Nations becomes one united and sovereign country:fluffle: where there will be no space for Washington oligarchs.:gundge: :mp5:

but way to go still.....we'll get there though

Ever read Against All Hope?
no. should i?
(synopsis??)

Cuba has recently started a new program with its South American neighbors. Cuba offers up its medical expertise and thousands of people in poor regions of SA nations (so far Venezuela and Argentina) get free surgery to restore their eyesite. The details of this deal have not yet been released, but Cuba does benefit financially from the deals.
Is this going to be like Castro's plan to give bean cookers to all of his people, that still hasn't been implenmented yet?

http://www.therealcuba.com/

Scroll down and see what Castro's boy are really doing in Venezuela.

Niice real neutral website that. Of course its true- if you disagree you are automatically a SCUM SUCKING COMMIE:rolleyes:

From my understanding of the subject, the cuban forces sent to Angola were actually government forces...and they primarily fought against the U.S.-backed South African forces that had invaded the place themselves, from occupied Namibia. If I had to choose between the communists and the apartheid forces, I think I'd choose the former.

There is a program up here in the Frozen North called "the Passionate eye" (which may be imported). One episode featured footage from an Irish film crew who had been caught in Venezuela during the coup which briefly unseated Chavez.

there were quite a few demonstrations going on at that time, and on one of the country's newschannels,there was footage of what appeared to be a gunman (unmasked, with a revolver) taking potshots at people demonstrating against Chavez. You could hear the noise of the riot in the background while this gunman, backed by his cheering friends, keeps on firing at the crowd below, which is not visible in that scene.

By chance, the Irishmen were there too, and took footage of the pro-Chavez gunman from a slightly different angle. Then, after a few seconds for the audience to establish that this was the same gunman from the newsfootage, the camera zooms out.

And the street below the bridge was empty. There was nothing there except litter and debris from the demonstration, which had occurred earlier. the whole thing had been staged and filmed.

That's what those pictures on www.therealcuba.com remind me of. It could be true (Opposition calls them "Cuban intelligence"? How do they know?), but the opposition stations and photographers are not above staging things.

I don't even know if Chavez really is as evil as the Americans say he is, because I keep recalling that one Passionate eye episode. It takes only the discovery of a single lie to make even the truth suspect.

Cuba certanly is one of the best countries out their. at least by ratio.

Cuba certanly is one of the best countries out their. at least by ratio.

It's ruled by a dictator. Anywhere there is a democracry is better than it.

Bullshit. Bullshit bullshit bullshit bullshit bullsht.

Opsition has never been roughed up in the US? Ha!

What about the gov sending in national guard to break up strikes with bullets?
What about WWI, where law enforcement organized mobs of citizens to illegaly spy on, attack, and terrorize those who didn't show enough support of the war or the government?
What about the FBI giving the KKK info on the stops of the freedom riders and promising them not to interfear with their beatings?
What about all through Red Scare?

Learn some history.
He thinks that you said the whole American government being prodded around with m-16s. Everyone knows what America has done to people in history.

He thinks that you said the whole American government being prodded around with m-16s. Everyone knows what America has done to people in history.

No. He said that no one in US history had ever been forced to work at gunpooint by the government.

He then said that, unlike the US, Cuba has used violence against opponents.

When the errors of these statements were pointed out, he defended them.

He was not misunderstood. He was just wrong.

no. should i?
(synopsis??)

Written by a guy who spent 22 years in a Cuban gulag.

If your country sends you, and they pay you as a soldier, and that's it, it's legal. If a third party pays either you or your country for the service, you are a mercenary. If you are not an official member of the armed forces of your country, and you are paid to do combat, you are a mercenary.

Except when you're called a "civilian contractor" instead. :D

fair play to cuba, its life expectancy and literacy rates are so much better than pretty much anywhere else in Latin America, and it has Casto's regime to thank for that. And anybody who prattles on about how terrible it is to have a dictatorship with a less than perfect human rights record on the US doorstep is probably just upset that it isnt a US controlled dictatorship (in which case nobody would say anything about such things... e.g Nicaragua under the Somozas or Chile under Pinochet).

And fair play to both cuba and venezuela under chavez. The US should damn well keep its nose out of south american politics and stop trying to force its destructive neoliberal free market policies where theyre not wanted.

Under Somoza, Nicaragua had a free speech, an annual GDP growth rate of 8%, freedom of religion, and workers had collective bargaining and the right to strike. Granted, Somoza had his faults. He was an unabashed nepotist, and many elections were mere political theater. But for the most part, Nicaraguans were allowed to go about their lives minding their own business. People could say "down with Somoza" and nothing would happen. Indigenous people were left alone. The country had peace. Under the Sandinistas, Indians were sent to concentration camps, clergy were persecuted, torture and corruption were widespread, and 15-20% of the population fled the country. Whereas, under Somoza, anti-government rallies typically drew 10,000-15,000 people, pro-government rallies drew over 75,000 people, sometimes more than 100,000.

fair play to cuba, its life expectancy and literacy rates are so much better than pretty much anywhere else in Latin America, and it has Casto's regime to thank for that. And anybody who prattles on about how terrible it is to have a dictatorship with a less than perfect human rights record on the US doorstep is probably just upset that it isnt a US controlled dictatorship (in which case nobody would say anything about such things... e.g Nicaragua under the Somozas or Chile under Pinochet).

And fair play to both cuba and venezuela under chavez. The US should damn well keep its nose out of south american politics and stop trying to force its destructive neoliberal free market policies where theyre not wanted.

Under Castro, Cuba's infant morality is 24th lowest in the world. Under Batista, it was 13th lowest. Under Batista, Cuba had about 12 prisons. Now it has over 200. Under Batista, there was no death penalty. Since taking power, Castro has executed thousands of people.

Latin America is weak, divided and corrupt. Castro will die someday (unless he gets big brothered, and becomes eternal) and the government will not be able to stand. Cuba is a personality cult to the extreme. Raoul will not be able to hold the state together, and, to say the least, the US will be faced with a nightmare of a refugee problem in southern Florida.

A few amusing bits and pieces about "Cuber"

The health care system is often touted by many analysts as one of the Castro government's greatest achievements. What this analysis ignores is that the revolutionary government inherited an already-advanced health sector when it took power in 1959.

Cuba's infant mortality rate of 32 per 1,000 live births in 1957 was the lowest in Latin America and the 13th lowest in the world, according to UN data. Cuba ranked ahead of France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan, Austria, Italy, Spain, and Portugal, all of which would eventually pass Cuba in this indicator during the following decades.

Today, Cuba remains the most advanced country in the region in this measure, but its world ranking has fallen from 13th to 24th during the Castro era, according to UN Data. Also missing from the conventional analysis of Cuba's infant mortality rates is its staggering abortion rate -- 0.71 abortions per live birth in 1991, according to the latest UN data -- which, because of selective termination of "high-risk" pregnancies, yields lower numbers for infant mortality. Cuba's abortion rate is at least twice the rate for the other countries in the table below for which data are available.

In terms of physicians and dentists per capita, Cuba in 1957 ranked third in Latin America, behind only Uruguay and Argentina -- both of which were more advanced than the United States in this measure. Cuba's 128 physicians and dentists per 100,000 people in 1957 was the same as the Netherlands, and ahead of the United Kingdom (122 per 100,000 people) and Finland (96).

Unfortunately, the UN statistical yearbook no longer publishes these statistics, so more recent comparisons are not possible, but it is completely erroneous to characterize pre-Revolutionary Cuba as backward in terms of healthcare.

Cuba has been among the most literate countries in Latin America since well before the Castro revolution, when it ranked fourth. Since then, Cuba has increased its literacy rate from 76 to 96 percent, which today places it second only to Argentina in Latin America. This improvement is impressive, but not unique, among Latin American countries. Panama -- which ranked just behind Cuba in this indicator during the 1950's -- has matched Cuba's improvement when measured in percentage terms.

Rationing has been a staple of Cuban life since the early 1960's. During the early 1990's, Cuba's food consumption deteriorated sharply, when massive amounts of Soviet aid were withdrawn. On its own without Soviet largesse and abundant food imports, Cuban agriculture was paralyzed by a scarcity of inputs and poor production incentives resulting from collectivism and the lack of appropriate price signals. In pre-Castro Cuba, by contrast, food supplies were abundant. The 1960 UN Statistical yearbook ranked pre-Revolutionary Cuba third out of 11 Latin American countries in per capita daily caloric consumption. This was in spite of the fact that the latest available food consumption data for Cuba at the time was from 1948-49, almost a decade before the other Latin American countries' data being used in the comparison. Looking at the same group of 11 countries today, Cuba ranks last in per capita daily caloric consumption, according to the most recent data available from the UN FAO. Indeed, the data show Cuba with a poorer food supply situation than even Honduras.

A closer look at some basic food groups reveals that Cubans now have less access to cereals, tubers, and meats than they had in the late 1940's. According to 1995 UN FAO data, Cuba's per capita supply of cereals has fallen from 106 kg per year in the late 1940's to 100 kg today, half a century later. Per capita supply of tubers and roots shows an even steeper decline, from 91 kg per year to 56 kg. Meat supplies have fallen from 33 kg per year to 23 kg per year, measured on a per capita basis.

Although some would blame Cuba's food problems on the U.S. embargo, the facts suggest that the food shortages are a function of an inefficient collectivized agricultural system -- and a scarcity of foreign exchange resulting from Castro's unwillingness to liberalize Cuba's economy, diversify its export base, and pay off debts owed to its Japanese, European, and Latin American trading partners during the years of abundant Soviet aid. This foreign exchange shortage has severely limited Cuba's ability to purchase readily-available food supplies from Canada, Latin America, and Europe. The U.S. Embargo has added, at most, relatively small increases in transportation costs by forcing Cuba to import food from non-U.S. sources elsewhere in the hemisphere.

The statistics on the consumption of nonfood items tell a similar story. The number of automobiles in Cuba per capita has actually fallen since the 1950's, the only country in the hemisphere for which this is the case. (Unfortunately, the latest available data for Cuba are from 1988.) UN data show that the number of automobiles per capita in Cuba declined slightly between 1958 and 1988, whereas virtually every other country in the region -- with the possible exception of Nicaragua -- experienced very significant increases in this indicator. Within Latin America, Cuba ranked second only to Venezuela in 1958, but by 1988, had dropped to ninth.

The 1988 data on automobiles also reveal that countries in Asia and Europe that once ranked far behind Cuba in this measure have since surpassed Cuba by a wide margin. Japan, with four cars per 1,000 inhabitants in 1958, was far behind Cuba (24) that year, but by 1988, Japan's number had grown to 251, whereas the figure for Cuba remained frozen at its 1958 level. Similar comments could be made for Portugal (increased from 15 in 1958 to 216 in 1988), Spain (increased from six to 278), and Greece (increased from four to 150). Indeed, Italy's 29 cars per capita was not far ahead of Cuba's 24 in 1958, but by 1988, Italy boasted 440 cars per capita, whereas the figure for Cuba was unchanged from the 1950's.

Telephones are another case in point. While every other country in the region has seen its teledensity increase at least two fold -- and most have seen even greater improvements -- Cuba's has remained frozen at 1958 levels. Today, Cuba has only 3 telephone lines per 100 people, placing it 14th out of 20 Latin American countries surveyed in 1994 and far behind countries that were less advanced than Cuba in this measure in 1958, such as Argentina (today 14 lines per 100 inhabitants), Costa Rica (13), Panama (11), Chile (11), Venezuela (11), and several others.

Cuba also has not kept pace with the rest of Latin America in terms of radios per capita. During the late 1950's, Cuba ranked second only to Uruguay in Latin America, with 169 radios per 1,000 people. (Worldwide, this put Cuba just ahead of Japan.) At that time, Argentina and Cuba were very similar in terms of this measure. Since then, the number of radios per capita in Argentina has grown three times as fast as in Cuba. Cuba also has been surpassed by Bolivia, Venezuela, El Salvador, Honduras, and Brazil in this indicator. Today, Cuba ranks just above average for Latin American countries.

In terms of television sets per capita, 1950's Cuba was far ahead of the rest of Latin America and was among the world's leaders. Cuba had 45 television sets per 1,000 inhabitants in 1957, by far the most in Latin America and fifth in the world, behind only Monaco, the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom. In fact, its closest competitor in Latin America was Venezuela, which had only 16 television sets per 1,000 people. Today, Cuba has 170 televisions per thousand, behind Uruguay (232 per capita), Argentina (220), and Brazil (209). Of these three countries, Uruguay in 1957 had fewer than one television per 1,000 people, and Argentina and Brazil each had five per 1,000 people -- far behind Cuba's 45 per capita.


Post 1959 Cuba falls short in areas of industrial production once prioritized by Soviet client states, such as electricity production. Although Cuba has never been a regional leader in public electricity production per capita, its relative ranking among 20 Latin American countries has fallen from eighth to 11th during the Castro era. In fact, in terms of the rate of growth for this measure, Cuba ranks 19th of 20 countries in the region, with only Haiti showing less accelerated development.

Cuba is the only country in Latin America whose production of rice has fallen since 1958, when it ranked fourth in the region in production of this staple. Two of the countries ranking ahead of Cuba in rice production in 1958 -- Colombia and Peru -- have since seen their rice production grow by more than three fold. Cuba's Caribbean neighbor, the Dominican republic, has increased its rice production by four fold since 1958. Perhaps even more telling are Cuba's yields per hectare in rice production. Whereas the Dominican Republic has increased rice yields from 2100 kg per hectare in 1958 to 5400 kg per hectare in 1996, Cuba's yields today are only 2500 kg per hectare, a negligible increase from the 2400 kg per hectare registered in 1958, according to UN FAO data.

Cuba's exports have not kept pace with other countries of the region. Of the 20 countries in the region for which comparable IMF data are available, Cuba ranks last in terms of export growth -- below even Haiti. Mexico and Cuba had virtually identical export levels in 1958 -- while Mexico's population was five times Cuba's. Since then, Cuba's exports in 1958 have merely doubled while Mexico's have increased by almost 130-fold, according to IMF statistics. Cuba's exports in 1958 far exceeded those of Chile and Colombia, countries which have since left Cuba behind. The lack of diversification of Cuba's exports over the past 35 years also is remarkable, when compared with other countries in the region.

Cuba's enviable productive base during the 1950's was strengthened by sizable inflows of foreign direct investment. As of 1958, the value of U.S. foreign direct investment in Cuba was $861 million, according to United States government figures published in 1959. Adjusting for inflation that foreign investment number amounts to more than USD 4.3 billion in today's dollars.

Contrary to popular perception, U.S. investors were not focused on the sugar industry in the 1950's. U.S. firms began to gradually sell their Cuban sugar holdings to Cuban firms beginning in 1935. By 1958, U.S. firms owned fewer than 40 of Cuba's 161 mills. While U.S. firms were moving away from sugar, they were rapidly investing in a range of other ventures, especially in infrastructure development. According to U.S. government statistics, 41 percent of U.S. direct investments in Cuba were in utilities as of 1958.

The sources for what I have written are the United Nations and the International Monetary Fund.

The paper was an analysis written by the US Department of State.

It doesn't really seem to be a rousing endorsement of the Castro system. It is just further evidence that continuing down the road to autarchy is a surefire way to not grow at all, and continue to impoverish your people, just as Cuba has done.

Cuba's been doing this for years. They export their medical expertise as a weapon. It's become pretty uneffective in recent years, however. This will continue as Castro is outshone by his idealogical twin, Hugo Chavez.

fair play to cuba, its life expectancy and literacy rates are so much better than pretty much anywhere else in Latin America, and it has Casto's regime to thank for that. And anybody who prattles on about how terrible it is to have a dictatorship with a less than perfect human rights record on the US doorstep is probably just upset that it isnt a US controlled dictatorship (in which case nobody would say anything about such things... e.g Nicaragua under the Somozas or Chile under Pinochet).

And fair play to both cuba and venezuela under chavez. The US should damn well keep its nose out of south american politics and stop trying to force its destructive neoliberal free market policies where theyre not wanted.
Destructive free market neoliberal policies my friend? Sir, what the fuck are you talking about? The free market neoliberal policies have played a vital role in the incredible economic success of the United States, Japan, Western Europe and increasingly so, East Asia and China. Even today Mexico is greatly benefitting from NAFTA, and is well on the way to achieving catchup. Neoliberal economic policies are certainly not destructive, autarchy is.

Under Castro, Cuba's infant morality is 24th lowest in the world. Under Batista, it was 13th lowest.

Proves nothing, really, unless you know what the mortality rates per 1,000 were
in Batista's day. For all we know, that just means that more countries are reporting infant mortality rate to the same index now.

Today, Cuba's infant mortality rate is 6.3. The US infant mortality rate is 6.5. Canada's is 4.82. Hong Kong, which has the lowest rate, is at 2.97. Cuba appears to be in pretty good company in this regard.

Proves nothing, really, unless you know what the mortality rates per 1,000 were
in Batista's day. For all we know, that just means that more countries are reporting infant mortality rate to the same index now.

Today, Cuba's infant mortality rate is 6.3. The US infant mortality rate is 6.5. Canada's is 4.82. Hong Kong, which has the lowest rate, is at 2.97. Cuba appears to be in pretty good company in this regard.
I cited the numbers in the immensely long article, here's a paragraph that I'd say has to do with it.

Today, Cuba remains the most advanced country in the region in this measure, but its world ranking has fallen from 13th to 24th during the Castro era, according to UN Data. Also missing from the conventional analysis of Cuba's infant mortality rates is its staggering abortion rate -- 0.71 abortions per live birth in 1991, according to the latest UN data -- which, because of selective termination of "high-risk" pregnancies, yields lower numbers for infant mortality. Cuba's abortion rate is at least twice the rate for the other countries in the table below for which data are available.

I cited the numbers in the immensely long article, here's a paragraph that I'd say has to do with it.

Today, Cuba remains the most advanced country in the region in this measure, but its world ranking has fallen from 13th to 24th during the Castro era, according to UN Data. Also missing from the conventional analysis of Cuba's infant mortality rates is its staggering abortion rate -- 0.71 abortions per live birth in 1991, according to the latest UN data -- which, because of selective termination of "high-risk" pregnancies, yields lower numbers for infant mortality. Cuba's abortion rate is at least twice the rate for the other countries in the table below for which data are available.
Interesting. According to nationmaster.com (who also got their stats from UNHDR) Cuba has the 4th highest abortion rate with 7.39958 per 1,000 people. Russia has by far the most with 19.2885 per 1,000 people. Sweden is 5th with 4.16452 per 1,000 people, and the US is 6th with 4.0945 per 1,000 people.

If someone wants to do the math to find out whether the abortion rate really is .71 abortions per live birth, in 2005, the birth rate per 1000 in Cuba was 12.03. For the record, the birth rate per 1000 in Canada was 10.84. The birth rate for the US is 14.14 per 1,000. The birth rate for Russia is 9.8 per 1,000. In fact, the Russians appear to have twice the number of abortions as live births.

Just a thought, aside from all the debate around Cuba.

Everytime an american tries to moralize others, to give them "freedom" lessons, I can't do anything but laugh.

Your foreign policies has caused the deaths of million of people and it continues to do so. The puppet governments you help, finance or literally install by yourself sell their own countries to foreign corporations backed by some "civilian contractors" (armed mercenaries), all in the name of freedom.

You have no moral ground to give anyone on this planet any "freedom lesson".

Just for the fun of it, do a little search on HRW website:
Venezuela: http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu
2 pages of results.

United States: http://hrw.org/doc/?t=usa
59 pages of results.

And since you were in Iraq to liberate the Iraqi people and give them their country, tell me what the fuck what this order, imposed on the Iraqi people by the occupier-in-chief Paul Bremer and his "100 orders before leaving office".
"Before the US proconsul Paul Bremer left Baghdad, he enacted 100 orders as chief of the occupation authority in Iraq. Perhaps the most infamous was Order 39 which decreed that 200 Iraqi state companies would be privatised, that foreign companies could have complete control of Iraqi banks, factories and mines, and that these companies could transfer all of their profits out of Iraq. The “reconstruction” of the country amounts in effect to wholesale privatisation of the economy and is little short of economic colonisation."
-Times Online, UK editorial by Michael Meacher (8/22/05).

Now, that must be giving "Iraq" back to "Iraqis"... or not.

P.S: I am totally in favor or Chavez' Venezuela and Castro's Cuba. There's still much to do to further improve the life of their people but they are on the right track.

The 21st century looks rather cloudy for the USA when it comes to imposing its diminishing imperialist influence on Latin America. More projects like this one are already taking place, for example the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas is already replacing the FTAA which was 'buried' by Hugo Chavez and Nestor Kirchner in Argentina not so long ago when Emperor George had to leave the Summit of the Americas through the back door (i laughed when i saw his face of humiliation).

On energy plans, well the region has plenty of resources most of which are now free from American hands and Hugo is building an energy grid through the whole of the Sub-continent. two weeks ago he signed the construction of a pipeline which will connect Caracas to Buenos Aires and in the future Brasilia will be anexed to it. Last week, while in Venezuela, America's best ally in the region, Colombian president Alvaro Uribe also signed the construction of a gasline which will connect the north of Colombia with Maracaibo Lake, this will eventually be extended to the Colombian port of Buenaventura on the pacific coast so that Venezuelan oil can be shipped directly to China through Colombia

The new television channel, Telesur created by Cuba, Venezuela, Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil is a project which is aimed at replacing CNN, of course, this is not liked by Washington (i bet it's not going to be long before Bush tells Blair that he wants to bomb the HQ of Telesur, just like what he wanted with Al Jazeera,is this free media? yeah right!*sarcasm*)

Petro Caribe is also another project which involves Cuba, basically, Cuba will provide Venezuela with top doctors in exchange for cheap oil which i think is one of the best 21st Socialist initiatives.

It's all going from bad to worse for Bush and Condi, there are 12 presidential elections due to take place in Latin America over the end of this year and the whole of 2006, from this, at least 10 are expected to elect left wing candidates (apart from Colombia and Paraguay i think)

Do you know what this tells me? that Latin America is fighting and winning its second independence war, 200 years ago it broke free from the hands of Colonialism, this time it's rapidly breaking free from the hands of Imperialism. I dream of the day when the South American Commuinity of Nations becomes one united and sovereign country:fluffle: where there will be no space for Washington oligarchs.:gundge: :mp5:

but way to go still.....we'll get there though

I sure hope you're right.

Destructive free market neoliberal policies my friend? Sir, what the fuck are you talking about? The free market neoliberal policies have played a vital role in the incredible economic success of the United States, Japan, Western Europe and increasingly so, East Asia and China. Even today Mexico is greatly benefitting from NAFTA, and is well on the way to achieving catchup. Neoliberal economic policies are certainly not destructive, autarchy is.

Yes, neoliberalism helps the west, those already powerful, but the global south just gets screwed farther and farther up the ass.

And how free is free trade, really?

When the US congress had to vote on the WTO treaty, an independent group offered a donation of $10,000 to a charity of the recipiant's choice to any congressman who would read the whole thing and answer 10 simple questions about it. No one did. The vote was delayed. After it was delayed, one republican congressman and avid free trade supporter decised to take them up in their challenge. He read it, answered the questions, and then anounced that he was changing his vote from yes to no.

The one guy who accully read the thing, who had started out supporting it and was a supporter of free trade, said it was a bad thing. What does that tell you?


You can't call something "free" when organizations like NAFTA and the World Bank have the ability to go above elected lawmakers and change the laws of a nation.

You can't call something "free" when organizations like NAFTA and the World Bank have the ability to go above elected lawmakers and change the laws of a nation.

I'm sorry, but you can't argue that freely entering a treaty that has an agreed upon dispute resolution mechanism is anything sinister, especially when you always have the option to withdraw from the treaty.

If rulings go agaionst you to the point where you feel that the benefit derived from your membership in the treaty has degraded, then you withdraw from it. Simple.

Frankly, that's more "FREE" than the domestic law situation.

I mean if, in the course of your daily activities, you frequently find yourself at odds with the legal system, you can't exactly suddenly decide that it's too burdensome for you and withdraw from it can you?

Nope.