NationStates Jolt Archive

Our Troops Must Stay (http://lieberman.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=249384)

I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the last 17 months and can report real progress there. More work needs to be done, of course, but the Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive, killing tyranny of Saddam to modern, self-governing, self-securing nationhood unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn.


The progress in Iraq is visible and practical. In the Kurdish North, there is continuing security and growing prosperity. The primarily Shiite south remains largely free of terrorism, receives much more electric power and other public services than it did under Saddam, and is experiencing greater economic activity. The Sunni triangle, geographically defined by Baghdad on the East, Tikrit to the North, and Ramadi to the West, is where most of the terrorist enemy attacks occur. And yet here too, there is progress.


There are many more cars on the streets, satellite television dishes on the roofs, and literally millions more cell phones in Iraqi hands than before. All of that says the Iraqi economy is growing. And Sunni candidates are actively campaigning for seats in the National Assembly. People are working their way to a functioning society and economy in the midst of a very brutal, inhumane, sustained terrorist war against the civilian population and the Iraqi and American military there to protect it.

So is Joe Lieberman, a DEMOCRAT, lying to us? Is he just another Neo-Con? Is he in Bush's pocket? How much Halliburton stock does he own? Does he just want to see more of our soldiers killed?

Read the article, and then try telling me we should pull out of Iraq. While your at it, try telling me that Iraqis think they are worse off!

Here is an ironic finding I brought back from Iraq. While public opinion polls in the U.S. show serious declines in support for the war and increasing pessimism about how it will end, polls conducted by Iraqis for Iraqi universities show increasing optimism. Two-thirds say they are better off than they were under Saddam and a resounding 82% are confident their lives in Iraq will be better a year from now than they are today. What a colossal mistake it would be for America’s bipartisan political leadership to choose this moment in history to lose its will, and in the famous phrase, to seize defeat from the jaws of the coming victory.


So what is this weeks excuse from the Liberals gonna be for us to pull out of Iraq and accept defeat? Because all the old excuses have been debunked!

So is Joe Lieberman, a DEMOCRAT, lying to us?
I don't think so, although he is, as all politicians do, "improving the truth" a little.

Is he just another Neo-Con?
He's not associated with any of the NeoCon Organisations, and he's pledged that he would support multilateral over unilateral action, so I'd say No, he's not.

How much Halliburton stock does he own?
No idea. I don't think he does have any, but chances are he's got plenty of stock in other companies.

Read the article, and then try telling me we should pull out of Iraq.
I'd never do that - who are you talking to?

While your at it, try telling me that Iraqis think they are worse off!
Some obviously do. But if you go to certain universities (presumably rich kids) and ask, they'll tell you something.
But that's not indicative of the entire population (not that I think that a majority would prefer Saddam over what's there now).

Read the article, and then try telling me we should pull out of Iraq. While your at it, try telling me that Iraqis think they are worse off!
I will tell you they want everyone to get out of their country.

a resounding 82% are confident their lives in Iraq will be better a year from now than they are today
Now that is a clever twisting of the truth.
"Well, we think it is damn shitty here right now, but a year from now might be better." - Joe Lieberman reports the majority of Iraqi citizens think the future kicks ass.

"Well, my computer is a piece of crap now, but a year from now I will have a new one, so it will be great." - Joe Lieberman reports I think my computer is going to kick ass.

well his people were always big fans of attacking iraq even if they tend to vote democratic.

I will tell you they want everyone to get out of their country.
We must have read different articles then. :rolleyes:

Unless, of course, your speaking of what some in the Iraqi government say. But that would be like saying that Nancy Pelosi, or George Bush speak for ALL Americans when they speak.

"Originally Posted by Joe Lieberman"

Senator Lieberman posts on NS??? :eek:

We must have read different articles then. :rolleyes:
Ignore him. His mother dressed him funny. :D

We must have read different articles then. :rolleyes:
I don't doubt it.

Liberman reports that we agree and the future is great.

His mother dressed him funny.
Big words for an old troll.

Liberman reports that Eutrusca believes he is important.

well his people were always big fans of attacking iraq even if they tend to vote democratic.
Yeah. Silly, silly them! Wanting to survive and all that shit! Tsk! :rolleyes:

So is Joe Lieberman, a DEMOCRAT, lying to us? Is he just another Neo-Con? Is he in Bush's pocket? How much Halliburton stock does he own? Does he just want to see more of our soldiers killed?

Appeal to authority. Just because Lieberman believes it to be so doesn't make it so.

Yeah. Silly, silly them! Wanting to survive and all that shit! Tsk! :rolleyes:
Hmmm?

Americans were in favour of attacking Iraq because they wanted to survive?

Hmmm?

Americans were in favour of attacking Iraq because they wanted to survive?
I believe we were discussing Israel at the time. You are obviously free to correct me at your leisure. :)

Hmmm?

Americans were in favour of attacking Iraq because they wanted to survive?
I believe he was referring to the "Aryan" poster making sublte innuendos about Jews.

So is Joe Lieberman, a DEMOCRAT, lying to us? Is he just another Neo-Con? Is he in Bush's pocket? How much Halliburton stock does he own? Does he just want to see more of our soldiers killed?

Read the article, and then try telling me we should pull out of Iraq. While your at it, try telling me that Iraqis think they are worse off!


So what is this weeks excuse from the Liberals gonna be for us to pull out of Iraq and accept defeat? Because all the old excuses have been debunked!



Lieberman is an DINO and, yes, a neo-Con.

Hmmm?

Americans were in favour of attacking Iraq because they wanted to survive?
Lieberman reports majority of Americans believe the will live to see tomorrow.

DINO

:confused:

So is Joe Lieberman, a DEMOCRAT, lying to us? Is he just another Neo-Con?

pretty much. that fucker won his senate seat by attacking the incumbent republican as being too far to the left. and he's long time pals with the fine people over at the national review.

I believe we were discussing Israel at the time. You are obviously free to correct me at your leisure. :)
I believe he was referring to the "Aryan" poster making sublte innuendos about Jews.
Yes, that makes a lot more sense...although I didn't have the impression that Aryan Einherjers was really that much of an Anti-Semite. But maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

That being said, I don't give two shits about Lieberman's religion or ethnicity, he's American and that is that.

And of the various Democrats around, he seems to be one of the few who would maybe have a chance of defeating the Republicans in an election, so I'm not a fan of people putting him down.
His security policy seems a little harsh IMHO, but still better than the current one.

2008 Election - Lieberman/Clark vs Powell/...! Who's with me?

So is Joe Lieberman, a DEMOCRAT, lying to us?


Of course he's lying. In essence, America is a dictatorship run by one party. Republicans and Democrats agree on the big issues, such as war and taxation. We are slaves.

:confused:

DINO = Democrat in name only

DINO = Democrat in name only

Ahh.

I believe he was referring to the "Aryan" poster making sublte innuendos about Jews.
"Subtle." Ok, "subtle." About as subtle as a heard of pigs in a Synagoge! :p

Of course he's lying. In essence, America is a dictatorship run by one party. Republicans and Democrats agree on the big issues, such as war and taxation. We are slaves.
Funny. I don't feel like a slave. You, however, not only sound like one, but look like one as well! :D

Lieberman is an DINO and, yes, a neo-Con.


Lieberman is a dino in the "Neo-Dem" party. He is an old school Democrat that had appeal to the majority of America. Not this far left wing bs they seem to embrace now. If the Democratic wants to win back the whitehouse they need to embrace the old school dem's. It isn't wise to get to far away from the middle of the political spectrum.

Of course he's lying. In essence, America is a dictatorship run by one party. Republicans and Democrats agree on the big issues, such as war and taxation. We are slaves.

Yep, "The Man" is holding us down.

Lieberman is a dino in the "Neo-Dem" party. He is an old school Democrat that had appeal to the majority of America. Not this far left wing bs they seem to embrace now. If the Democratic wants to win back the whitehouse they need to embrace the old school dem's. It isn't wise to get to far away from the middle of the political spectrum.

Are you talking about the same Democrats that we are? They are nowhere near far-left.

Are you talking about the same Democrats that we are? They are nowhere near Far-Left.
There's never been a worker's party in the States, has there?

Strange really.

"Subtle." Ok, "subtle." About as subtle as a heard of pigs in a Synagoge! :p


well a bit subtler than that, but who was Iraq really seen as a threat to before the war... not the mighty US of A. Though for all my differences with Isreal i don't doubt their strength, Iraq probably wasn't really much of a threat to them either now that we know their vast stores of WW1 style chemical weapons had disappeared into the sands and sky sometime in the mid 90s

There's never been a worker's party in the States, has there?

Strange really.

I imagine the irrational fear of communism that the US has put paid to that.

Are you talking about the same Democrats that we are? They are nowhere near far-left.

Yes I am talking about the same Democrats. I see a party drifting hard toward the far left. I personally do not want to see this. I think anytime you get one party to strong without a counterbalance you have problems. The way the Democratic party is drifting at this point it looks like this may happen. The best scenerio would be to have more than two viable parties. That hasn't happened yet. I don't want to see one dominate party in the US. That would not be good for anyone.

Leiberman lost all respect the second he tried to take away my video games.

There's never been a worker's party in the States, has there?

Strange really.

Depends on what you mean by "a worker's party."

Some would claim that is what the Democrats are. They are definitely the union party.

We have had various third parties throughout our history.

Depends on what you mean by "a worker's party."

Some would claim that is what the Democrats are. They are definitely the union party.

We have had various third parties throughout our history.


I personally don't think that the dem's could call themselves the "workers" party. Sure they supposedly support unions. Although union membership declined all through the Clinton years and to this day. It is difficult for me to think of them as such. They are run by rich elitist like another well known party.

Leiberman lost all respect the second he tried to take away my video games.
Lieberman reports that he will gain respect again.

Yes I am talking about the same Democrats. I see a party drifting hard toward the far left.

we must mean different things by the term 'left' for the dems to be heading 'left' at all, let alone 'far left'. either that or we mean different things by the term 'democrats'. assuming the former, what exactly does 'drifting hard toward the far left' mean in your political language?

I personally don't think that the dem's could call themselves the "workers" party. Sure they supposedly support unions. Although union membership declined all through the Clinton years and to this day. It is difficult for me to think of them as such. They are run by rich elitist like another well known party.
In all fairness to the Democrats, the rise of the "knowledge worker" and the movement of much manufacturing off-shore was in large part responsible for the decline in union membership.

we must mean different things by the term 'left' for the dems to be heading 'left' at all, let alone 'far left'. either that or we mean different things by the term 'democrats'. assuming the former, what exactly does 'drifting hard toward the far left' mean in your political language?
Facts and definitions don't matter to the populace at large - only soundbites and talking points.

Read the article, and then try telling me we should pull out of Iraq. While your at it, try telling me that Iraqis think they are worse off!*reads article*
*Turns around*
*Looks into FeriAntz face*
we should pull out...Joe LeiJewishman is an Idiot.

we must mean different things by the term 'left' for the dems to be heading 'left' at all, let alone 'far left'. either that or we mean different things by the term 'democrats'. assuming the former, what exactly does 'drifting hard toward the far left' mean in your political language?

Well what I am speaking of is the fact that the Democratic party steered away from its base. The base being a large group that is centrist. When I'm talking about old dem's I'm talking about Leiberman, Miller and the such. Hillary, Dean and the Kennedy's of the Democratic party are in my opinion not representing what the Democratic party is about in my mind. The Democratic party needs to come up with a real plan of its own to captivate the American voter. Denouncing nearly everything the President and Republicans do isnt going to capture votes. Hate doesnt win elections. Ideas, clear actionable plans do. This is where I see the Democratic party leadership "mucking" it up. Get the train back on the tracks I say.

*reads article*
*Turns around*
*Looks into FeriAntz face*
we should pull out...Joe LeiJewishman is an Idiot.
I should have put a note into that stating you may only respond if you have a brain and your not a racist.

I find it hard to believe that it is better now than it was under Saddam in areas where there is heavy insurgency activity and very little oil. I dont know if it will be better in a year, but I do know that for the past few years that is what has been touted (that next year it'll be better) yet the reports of foreigners being kidnapped keep coming out and the numbers of foreigners being kidnapped is in my understanding miniscule compared to the numbers of Iraqis being kidnapped and either ransomed or murdered or ransomed and then murdered anyway. Political assasinations have not stopped, multiple daily bombings is still the norm, and the insurgents have enough spare time up their sleeves to export suicide bombers to countries such as Jordan. That hardly seems an improvement.

Add to this that although Saddam's security forces are not engaging in torture anymore, the current security forces have simply taken up where his lot left off, and I'm not sure quite how this can be described as an improvement.

There is still torture being done by Iraqi security forces, and now there are also daily bombings, political assasinations, rampant 'for profit' crime, the risk of civil war, Iraq is now a training ground for terrorists and Iraq is now also an exporter of terrorism not to mention the propaganda value to fundamental fanatics and terrorists cannot even be calculated.

Ordinary (ie for profit) crime is rampant along with terrorism/insurgency, and no one from the ordinary civillian child through to officers in the security forces through to top politicians are safe.

Evidently since there is no longer a complete nutter who may or may not have WMD but does have an aggressive foreign policy camped out on it's border Iran has become increasingly bolshy....At least with Saddam in charge next door the Iranians (and other 'iffy' regimes in the area) had reason to 'watch their back' leaving less time for them to plan the down fall of Western society.

The invasion has provided support for fundamentalist fanatical propaganda, whilst also demonstrating that the US with all its 'military might' cant even keep order effectively in a country where the deposed (by the US) leader was highly unpopular and the majority of the populice apparently in favour of his being deposed by any method necessary, and the way in which the US went about 'getting support' for the invasion has given the world the impression that 'US intelligence' is either something US politicians cant be trusted to tell the truth about, or an oxymoron.

As for leaving Iraq, that's like putting the milk back in the bottle after it's been spilt and left festering for several days in the summer heat. Quite possibly the current situation is the reason why people objected to the attack in the first place.....I very strongly doubt that leaving now would improve things anymore than staying appears to be....

I should have put a note into that stating you may only respond if you have a brain and your not a racist.why dont you put a note stating only "happy neocons" may respond...or... "only people who agrees with you" may respond

why dont you put a note stating only "happy neocons" may respond...or... "only people who agrees with you" may respond

You are dodging the fact that you wrote a racist remark.

You are dodging the fact that you wrote a racist remark.I stand by everything i said.

sue me.

*reads article*
*Turns around*
*Looks into FeriAntz face*
we should pull out...Joe LeiJewishman is an Idiot.
Great, so now we determine argumentative validity based on the religion of the speaker...If you're Jewish, you obviously can't have real opinions because you're Jewish. Go sit in the corner and put on that yellow-star shaped hat and the accompanying armband flair.

If you're Catholic, the Pope is obviously feeding you your opinions through Terri Schiavo's feeding tube. Pull the plug and go sit in the corner with the Jew.

You get the gist (hopefully).

...If you're Jewish, May be a coincidence but...

All my Jewish friends want the US army to stay in Iraq...and they would love it if we start a war with Iran.

I don't care if they want the US army to fight endless wars...I just think Jewish-Americans should enlist...accordingly.

regardless of religion or race...The people who wants War should enlist first...

May be a coincidence but...

All my Jewish friends want the US army to stay in Iraq...and they would love it if we start a war with Iran.
Actually, no, I wouldn't want a war with Iran, thank you. The word "overstretch" comes to mind. I'm one of those funny people you consigned to the corner earlier.

I do believe the United States should not pull out of Iraq immediately and unconditionally. A phased withdrawal contingent on certain things occurring is the best way to make sure we don't cause a civil war in our wake.

I don't think anyone credible believes the US should stay in Iraq forever, so qualify what you mean when you say "pull out" and "stay."

So what is this weeks excuse from the Liberals gonna be for us to pull out of Iraq and accept defeat? Because all the old excuses have been debunked!


What does Leiberman have to do with Liberals? The day I see Howard Dean or Dennis Kucinich or Nacy Pelosi talking about how we should stay, then I'll accept that it's a Liberal voice. Leiberman is a Democrat, yes, but it's a diverse party. From far right conservatives, like Leiberman and Miller, to far left tree huggers like, Kucinich and Pelosi, and everyone in between, like Clinton and Kerry.

When I'm talking about old dem's I'm talking about Leiberman, Miller and the such.

so, republicans basically. and while it is true that miller represents one faction of the old democratic coalition, it's the shitty section that was never really on board all the way in the first place.

Hillary, Dean and the Kennedy's of the Democratic party are in my opinion not representing what the Democratic party is about in my mind.

well, you got one vaguely left-leaning dem there. hillary might count too, as long as we ignore pretty much everything she does. i've never understood the dean = teh leftists talking point though.

The Democratic party needs to come up with a real plan of its own to captivate the American voter. Denouncing nearly everything the President and Republicans do isnt going to capture votes. Hate doesnt win elections. Ideas, clear actionable plans do. This is where I see the Democratic party leadership "mucking" it up. Get the train back on the tracks I say.

ah. see, on my planet the democratic party has barely done anything to oppose even the most obviously horrendous aspects of the fascist/christian taliban coalition's agenda - other than sometimes talking about blocking the craziest of people nominated as judges. it's true that they haven't offered up much of an alternative, but that's because they've been too busy keeping their heads down and just voting for whatever is put in front of them by the republicans. those that have made the smallest inkling of vocal opposition have faced the wrath of a completely unhinged right-wing whining machine which has enough funding to put out lies quickly and densely enough to confuse everyone, and then screams 'liberal bias' at any media institution that points out that the lies are in fact lies until the original speaker appologizes for their deviationism. and, of course, there are significant elements of the democratic party on my planet which visciously turn against members of their own party that question the wisdom of their republican masters. and all of this even as public support for those masters drops to microscopic levels.

your planet sounds slightly more interesting. mine's just full of boot-lickers.

May be a coincidence but...

All my Jewish friends want the US army to stay in Iraq...and they would love it if we start a war with Iran.

I don't care if they want the US army to fight endless wars...I just think Jewish-Americans should enlist...accordingly.

regardless of religion or race...The people who wants War should enlist first...
I'd say coincidence.

I personally was against the Iraq war because of several reasons that I am way to tired to coherantly state. However, I don't think we should just pull out. We need a proper exit strategy.

Iran, fuck no.

Lieberman is Jewish, yes. He is also my representative. From the conversations that I've had with him (perhaps three or four), I can respect him very highly. While I do not like everything he likes (video games and such), he presents his view very clearly and intelligently. Moreover, he is a man who votes what he believes, not based on Democrat or Republican (this may be due to the fact that he is relatively conservative in nature). However, he has made it fairly clear to me that he is willing to compromise on most issues, which is something alot of politicians need to learn.

What does Leiberman have to do with Liberals? The day I see Howard Dean or Dennis Kucinich or Nacy Pelosi talking about how we should stay, then I'll accept that it's a Liberal voice. Leiberman is a Democrat, yes, but it's a diverse party. From far right conservatives, like Leiberman and Miller, to far left tree huggers like, Kucinich and Pelosi, and everyone in between, like Clinton and Kerry. I never claimed he was a mouthpiece for all Liberals. But he is a prominent Democrat who actually has been to Iraq 4 TIMES, and seems to know what he is talking about. Lets just ignore anything about party politics for a second. What do you think of what he had to say? Do you think we should pull out of Iraq before Iraqis can defend themselves or not? Do you think people like Pelosi and Kerry are telling the truth when they talk about Iraq as some big mess where we've done nothing but kill people and ruin the infrastructure?

All my Jewish friends want the US army to stay in Iraq...and they would love it if we start a war with Iran.

Why do I find it so hard to believe that you actually have Jewish friends? Do they think it's cute when you incorporate JEW into their last names for no other reason than to insult them?

As a "liberal" I'd just like to say that most "liberals" don't believe troops should be pulled out of Iraq. The US and the "coalition of the willing" have made their mess and they have a legal and moral responsibility to stay there until it is fixed.

What do you think of what he had to say?

Bored indifference, really.

Do you think we should pull out of Iraq before Iraqis can defend themselves or not?

I don't think we should have gone there in the first place. Regardless, we did. I believe we should have pulled out the minute the Commander in Chief - the one who in the Presidential debates said he didn't believe the military should be used for nation building - announced "Mission Accomplished".

Do you think people like Pelosi and Kerry are telling the truth when they talk about Iraq as some big mess where we've done nothing but kill people and ruin the infrastructure?

Actually, yes. I have yet to see any real good we've done over there. Doesn't mean there hasn't been good that we've done, I've just yet to actually see it.

What I do see is my own country being torn assunder because of this nasty little business. Not only the divisiveness, but the constant investigations into bribery, no-bid contracts, possible treason, and deliberate falsification of intelligence. I long for the good old days when it was just a blow-job and a little white lie.

Leiberman need not be lying. He can simply be wrong.

So is Joe Lieberman, a DEMOCRAT, lying to us? Is he just another Neo-Con? Is he in Bush's pocket? How much Halliburton stock does he own? Does he just want to see more of our soldiers killed?

Read the article, and then try telling me we should pull out of Iraq. While your at it, try telling me that Iraqis think they are worse off!


So what is this weeks excuse from the Liberals gonna be for us to pull out of Iraq and accept defeat? Because all the old excuses have been debunked!


I don't trust anyone that looks like Emperor from Star Wars!!!

Bored indifference, really.
:rolleyes:



I don't think we should have gone there in the first place. Regardless, we did. I believe we should have pulled out the minute the Commander in Chief - the one who in the Presidential debates said he didn't believe the military should be used for nation building - announced "Mission Accomplished".
Yeah, and let it turn into a terrorist state. Man, am I glad you don't make any important decisions that affect me!


Actually, yes. I have yet to see any real good we've done over there. Doesn't mean there hasn't been good that we've done, I've just yet to actually see it.
So, other than going there and seeing it yourself, your just gonna assume it's all a big mess. REAL mature of you.
What I do see is my own country being torn assunder because of this nasty little business. Not only the divisiveness, but the constant investigations into bribery, no-bid contracts, possible treason, and deliberate falsification of intelligence. I long for the good old days when it was just a blow-job and a little white lie.
Possible treason? If your talking about Valerie Flame, I have no comment, based on the sheer stupidity of the entire investigation of who leaked the name of the desk jockey.

Deliberate falsification of intelligence? Show me proof. Oh wait, thats right, THERE IS NONE!

So is Joe Lieberman, a DEMOCRAT, lying to us? Is he just another Neo-Con? Is he in Bush's pocket? How much Halliburton stock does he own? Does he just want to see more of our soldiers killed?Are you implying the Democrats don't lie? Lieberman is a Senator, which is a type of politician. Politicians lie. And he's about as neo-con as you can get within the Democrat party.


In late 2002 P.N.A.C.’s Bruce Jackson formed the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq that brought together such Democrats as Senator Joseph Lieberman; former Senator Robert Kerrey, the president of the New School University who now serves on the 9/11 Commission; P.P.I.’s Will Marshall; and former Representative Steve Solarz. The neocons also reached out to Democrats through a sign-on letter to the president organized by the Social Democrats/USA, a neocon institute that has played a critical role in shaping the National Endowment for Democracy in the early 1980’s and in mobilizing labor support for an interventionist foreign policy.

The liberal hawks not only joined with the neocons to support the war and the post-war restructuring but have published their own statements in favor of what is now widely regarded as a morally bankrupt policy agenda. Perhaps the clearest articulation of the liberal hawk position on foreign and military policy is found in an October 2003 report by the Progressive Policy Institute, which is a think tank closely associated with the Democratic Leadership Council. The report, titled “Progressive Internationalism: A Democratic National Security Strategy,” endorsed the invasion of Iraq, “because the previous policy of containment was failing,” and Saddam Hussein’s government was “undermining both collective security and international law.”


The rest of the article is here (http://www.worldpress.org/Americas/2030.cfm).

May be a coincidence but...

All my Jewish friends want the US army to stay in Iraq...and they would love it if we start a war with Iran.

I don't care if they want the US army to fight endless wars...I just think Jewish-Americans should enlist...accordingly.

regardless of religion or race...The people who wants War should enlist first...If jews want to kill arabs and arabs want to kill jews, why should us non-semites get involved?

Regarding whether or not the Democrat party is the US deserves to be considered 'leftist', I think it's a relative thing. In the US we have the evil party and stupid party. Which is which changes from time to time. What hasn't changed in a long time is which party is the Welfare/Warfare Party and which is the Warfare/Welfare Party. The former being to the left of the later.

Now I don't know that the US has ever had a wokers or labor party, per se, but there was a Socialist Party. It never really got anyone elected, but it's entire platform has long been part of US policy anyway. Somehow the word 'socialism' is politically unacceptable in the US while many elements of actual socialism are almost universally demanded. And so, we have the Demorcatic party which is basically all about democratic socialism and the Republican party which is more-or-less facism camouflaged with the relatively sensible ideas of conservatism.

So is Joe Lieberman, a DEMOCRAT, lying to us?

The answer to your question is the same as the answer to this question:

Is Joe Lieberman a politician?

I never claimed he was a mouthpiece for all Liberals. But he is a prominent Democrat who actually has been to Iraq 4 TIMES, and seems to know what he is talking about. Lets just ignore anything about party politics for a second. What do you think of what he had to say? Do you think we should pull out of Iraq before Iraqis can defend themselves or not? Do you think people like Pelosi and Kerry are telling the truth when they talk about Iraq as some big mess where we've done nothing but kill people and ruin the infrastructure?Why do I get the distinct impression that you put that bolded bit in there because you happen to agree with him? It's more than a little disingenuous for you to say "let's ignore anything about party politics" when you're basing this entire thread on the fact that a Democrat--which to you automatically means "liberal"--is supporting this war and saying that everything is going well.

Everything is not going well, and it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. We've got reports of Shi'ites rounding up Sunnis and the bodies of those Sunnis showing up days later tortured and shot in the back of the head. There' s still no real security on the ground. We've got another largely symbolic election coming up in 2 weeks--symbolic because the government would fall in a month if we pulled out and left the Iraq military to stand on its own. So what it looks like we've improved there is the ability of the Shi'ites to take revenge on the Sunnis for 30 years of repression under Saddam. Is that an improvement? Not to me--maybe that's all Lieberman wants. I don't know.

Everything is not going well, and it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. We've got reports of Shi'ites rounding up Sunnis and the bodies of those Sunnis showing up days later tortured and shot in the back of the head. There' s still no real security on the ground. We've got another largely symbolic election coming up in 2 weeks--symbolic because the government would fall in a month if we pulled out and left the Iraq military to stand on its own. So what it looks like we've improved there is the ability of the Shi'ites to take revenge on the Sunnis for 30 years of repression under Saddam. Is that an improvement? Not to me--maybe that's all Lieberman wants. I don't know.
First, there is more good news in Iraq than we see in the media. I try to make that point from time to time. Between the sensationalism of more Marines, soldiers, Iraqis, being killed and the dullness of adding new capacity to the power grid, the accomplishments get lost.

Second, there are stable regions of the country. We don't hear anything about the Kurds because the ones that weren't killed by Saddam are pretty much doing their own thing without any interference from us. The Sunni-Shite thing has been going on for centuries and there isn't a thing in the world we or anyone else can do to prevent it. That is until the Iraqi police forces are as strong as they were under Saddam. All we need do is look at the atrocities that occur frequently in Bosnia/Serbia to have a preview of what to expect down the road.

I think we would be especially fortunate if the newly elected Parliament would invite us and the British to go home, then request the UN to come in and do its job of peacekeeping and nation-building.

If jews want to kill arabs and arabs want to kill jews, why should us non-semites get involved?I agree in way..

Are you willing to vote for a Presidential Candidates that proposes less US interference in the Israel-Palestine bloody conflict? (question for you all)...I know I am.

Jews and Palestinians are the most Anti-Semites on the Face of Earth.
And the US has been in that mess for decades...and with our "help" (billions) has solved absolutely nothing...The Rest of the World actually says we are partly responsible for the never ending Bloodshed...

I agree in way..

Are you willing to vote for a Presidential Candidates that proposes less US interference in the Israel-Palestine bloody conflict? (question for you all)...I know I am.

Jews and Palestinians are the most Anti-Semites on the Face of Earth.
And the US has been in that mess for decades...and with our "help" (billions) has solved absolutely nothing...The Rest of the World actually says we are partly responsible for the never ending Bloodshed...
Here's a question for you. Do you think anyone here actually takes you seriously?

Here's a question for you. Do you think anyone here actually takes you seriously?

On most issues OD2 is a most welcome and appreciated voice.

On topics related to Jews or Isreal, he tends to foam at the mouth.

On most issues OD2 is a most welcome and appreciated voice.

On topics related to Jews or Isreal, he tends to foam at the mouth.
Yeah, well I agree with a few of the political beliefs of the Aryans, but I don't take them seriously either.

Here's a question for you. Do you think anyone here actually takes you seriously?NS unwritten rule #13

"thou should not pretend to speak for all the others..."

I will tell you they want everyone to get out of their country.


Now that is a clever twisting of the truth.
"Well, we think it is damn shitty here right now, but a year from now might be better." - Joe Lieberman reports the majority of Iraqi citizens think the future kicks ass.

"Well, my computer is a piece of crap now, but a year from now I will have a new one, so it will be great." - Joe Lieberman reports I think my computer is going to kick ass.

you really think the 80% of Iraqis who are Shi'a and Kurd want us to leave them to the insurgent/terrorist wolves right now?

I'm sure they'd like us to leave at some point, but now is not the time. Law-abiding Iraqi police/military are still not quite where they need to be in order to protect Peaceful Iraq from Insane Iraq.

And bubba... do you prefer democracy to dictatorships? Those people are going from a brutal dictator to a )hopefully) stable democratic form of government in which they won't have to fear torture or execution at the whim of a madman. I'd say that the GOOD GUYS (Shi'a, Kurds and peaceful Sunnis) will be better off in a year.

you really think the 80% of Iraqis who are Shi'a and Kurd want us to leave them to the insurgent/terrorist wolves right now?

no, they just strongly oppose your presence and want you gone as soon as possible. the 67% that think your presence makes them less secure want you gone yesterday, if not sooner. the 45% that support the insurgency think blowing you up is a good way to get you out faster.

the insurgents are largely not terrorists. the terroristic ones are largely foreigners and their numbers are dropping - they'll fall to 0 when the u.s. leaves. as will the number of recruits to the domestic anti-imperialist guerrilla forces.

Yeah, and let it turn into a terrorist state.

You mean other than the super happy fun Disney like place it is now? We've been there for three years and it has become, via our occupation, one of the worst terrorist states since Iran just after the rebellion. Just how far up did you put your head?

So, other than going there and seeing it yourself, your just gonna assume it's all a big mess. REAL mature of you.

Assume? No. I only go on the information presented to me. Strange how I can take the intelligence handed to me and formulate an opinion based on it and get called assumptive and have a backhanded remark about my maturity, but when George Bush says it was "bad information" which lead to his opinion, you'll say, "Right on, George. You're doin' a hell of a job".

YOU are the one who said to put aside partisan politics. Did take very long for you to flip-flop, now did it?

Possible treason? If your talking about Valerie Flame, I have no comment, based on the sheer stupidity of the entire investigation of who leaked the name of the desk jockey.

Plame. Yes, it's stupid to investigate possible leaks in our national security.

Deliberate falsification of intelligence? Show me proof. Oh wait, thats right, THERE IS NONE!

I don't need to show proof. Investigations are ongoing. However, when indictments start happening, I'll remember you said this.

I'm sure they'd like us to leave at some point, but now is not the time. Law-abiding Iraqi police/military are still not quite where they need to be in order to protect Peaceful Iraq from Insane Iraq.
Joe Lieberman reports the Iraqis want us to leave eventually.

do you prefer democracy to dictatorships?
Un-US-supported secular dictatorship or blindly US-supported, religious extremist democracy?
Iraq is a country composed of three opposing sects of Islam with one in an overwhelming majority and one the former pet sect of the former, "brutal" dictator. They also intend to put Shar'ia law in place.

Your silly rhetoric and talking points will not work on me; I reject your reality and substitute my own.

I agree in way..

Are you willing to vote for a Presidential Candidates that proposes less US interference in the Israel-Palestine bloody conflict? (question for you all)...I know I am.

I can't promise a vote, but I support that position.

Jews and Palestinians are the most Anti-Semites on the Face of Earth.
And the US has been in that mess for decades...and with our "help" (billions) has solved absolutely nothing...The Rest of the World actually says we are partly responsible for the never ending Bloodshed...Well, it wasn't my idea to get involved in the first place. I do think that we'd all be better off if our two governments would stop sharing a bed.