NationStates Jolt Archive

I attend an all women's college where the pronoun "she" has come under a lot of fire in the past few years. We have a fair-sized (and vocal) transgendered population that claims that the use of the pronoun "she" in the official publications of the school, disregarded and discriminated against the female-bodied students who identified themselves as male. I do believe that the student-government charter has changed its language from "she" to the "the student," but the mailings still use "her" and "she."

Part of me agrees with the logical statement "well, if you identify yourself as a man, why belong to a woman's institution?" and that the whole debate is silly. But then I think about it, and since these people are female-bodies they are legally recognized as women, and have lived similar experiences to female-bodied-female-identified women, therefore it is unfair to assume that they and their issues have no place in this arena (which some here have suggested). Some students here claim that transgender issues are not feminist issues (or women's issues, if you are afraid of the f word), but i feel as these issues are relevent, because if feminist/women's movement doesnt take them up, who will?

I guess what I'm asking is, how do you feel about the issues of transexuality, gender, and how they relate language. I have heard of some people using the pronouns "ze" and "zim" in order to avoid being forced to adopt a gendered-classification, and I really like this idea. But I don't see it being adopted by middle-america anytime soon.

"Gender neutral" pronouns can piss off for a start.

The solution is for people to realize that it is a fucking pronoun and get over their goddamn selves. If your "sexual identity" can be torn into bloody little peices by a three letter word, then maybe you haven't thought the whole transgendered thing through enough.
Other possible answers, if the above wasn't to your taste:

You're at a WOMAN's School. If you identify as a man so strongly that being called "she" sends you into epilliptic fits, then you need to get the Hell out.
Have you got a penis? No? Then your a She until you fix that. Have a nice night.

"Gender neutral" pronouns can piss off for a start.
Right, I'm sure everyone would like to be referred to as "it".

Eh! The world is done this way, even if it is wrong...

I'm getting philosphic, hit me someone. :p

I attend an all women's college where the pronoun "she" has come under a lot of fire in the past few years. We have a fair-sized (and vocal) transgendered population that claims that the use of the pronoun "she" in the official publications of the school, disregarded and discriminated against the female-bodied students who identified themselves as male. I do believe that the student-government charter has changed its language from "she" to the "the student," but the mailings still use "her" and "she."

Part of me agrees with the logical statement "well, if you identify yourself as a man, why belong to a woman's institution?" and that the whole debate is silly. But then I think about it, and since these people are female-bodies they are legally recognized as women, and have lived similar experiences to female-bodied-female-identified women, therefore it is unfair to assume that they and their issues have no place in this arena (which some here have suggested). Some students here claim that transgender issues are not feminist issues (or women's issues, if you are afraid of the f word), but i feel as these issues are relevent, because if feminist/women's movement doesnt take them up, who will?

I guess what I'm asking is, how do you feel about the issues of transexuality, gender, and how they relate language. I have heard of some people using the pronouns "ze" and "zim" in order to avoid being forced to adopt a gendered-classification, and I really like this idea. But I don't see it being adopted by middle-america anytime soon.

A lot of this debate boils down to the issue of queer theory vs. identity politics, and I must say I have a foot in each camp. I definitely see a need for identity politics while a particular group (women, TG/TS, queer; whatever) is discriminated against, but I also love the queer project of fucking with binaries.

And with gender-neutral pronouns, I think that people will always identify as men or women, so realistically we won't get rid of gender specific pronouns. However, I do think that it should not be compulsory for people to identify as part of a binary. Having a compulsory binary invariably privileges one half over the other (men over women, straight over gay etc) AND disadvantages those excluded by it. In other words, I'm not sure what is to be done, but I think debating it is a good start because the situation obviously isn't perfect right now.

It's sad that there's often a conflict between feminists and queer activists. We should be working together!

Right, I'm sure everyone would like to be referred to as "it".
Exactly.

I mean, I make no secret on here of the fact that I'm transgendered, and getting called "it" by some people isn't exactly the nicest thing in the world.

My answer: get some perspective. Pronouns aren't such a big deal. Then again, these are people who spend thousands of pounds on self-mutilation, so getting priorities straight might not be the easiest for them.

Exactly.

I mean, I make no secret on here of the fact that I'm transgendered, and getting called "it" by some people isn't exactly the nicest thing in the world.

It'd be nice if the English language had a proper gender-neutral pronoun for people. Not just for the issues presented either, just in general. No more of the whole him/her business in things, or choosing one over the other...

It'd be nice if the English language had a proper gender-neutral pronoun for people. Not just for the issues presented either, just in general. No more of the whole him/her business in things, or choosing one over the other...
It would be good for objects, but I fear the same problem I mentioned would arise.

My answer: get some perspective. Pronouns aren't such a big deal. Then again, these are people who spend thousands of pounds on self-mutilation, so getting priorities straight might not be the easiest for them.

It's not 'self-mutilation', it's making their body fit their mind. Also, if you're considering sex re-assignment surgery a form of self-mutilation, you better consider things like breast implants and nose jobs self-mutilation as well.

My answer: get some perspective. Pronouns aren't such a big deal. Then again, these are people who spend thousands of pounds on self-mutilation, so getting priorities straight might not be the easiest for them.
'Mutilating'?

:rolleyes:

I prefer 'fixing'.

A lot of this debate boils down to the issue of queer theory vs. identity politics, and I must say I have a foot in each camp. I definitely see a need for identity politics while a particular group (women, TG/TS, queer; whatever) is discriminated against, but I also love the queer project of fucking with binaries.

But can the co-exist? Because the problem that we have here is that our campus has a strong queer activist community, with a strong belief in degenderization. At the same time, the transgendered community (the majority of which are, from the biological logic that they were born women and are attracted to women, homosexual) seems to be upholding these gender-roles by adopting the male role. And even more confusingly, some degenderization activists are themselves transgendered, which seems paradoxical to me.

It's sad that there's often a conflict between feminists and queer activists. We should be working together!

I know! I have always interpereted feminism to include queer and gender (including transgender) issues, the same way that feminism includes race and poverty issues as well. The argument by some here is seems to be that since the fight for women's rights hasn't been completed yet, it would be too overwhelming to take on queer rights (unless of course, you are a queer feminst), not to even mention transgendered rights (because there you are beginning to talk not only about women but also about men). But i just don't see why some issues must take the backburner like that. I see the feminist and queer communites as allies.

It would be good for objects, but I fear the same problem I mentioned would arise.

Maybe, but it would be nice to have a single word to represent him/her.

My answer: get some perspective. Pronouns aren't such a big deal. Then again, these are people who spend thousands of pounds on self-mutilation, so getting priorities straight might not be the easiest for them.

1) I can see how pronouns can become a big deal. We understand the sociological affect that underrepresentation can have on minority groups, the striking thing about this case is that, for once, the males are the under-and/or-misrepresented group.

2)What a horrible generalization. Even if it was made in jest.

It's not 'self-mutilation' to them, it's making their body fit their mind. Also, if you're considering sex re-assignment surgery a form of self-mutilation, you better consider things like breast implants and nose jobs self-mutilation as well.

Fine, I won't call it mutilation any more.

This isn't intended as an insult, just a statement of my observations, but the opposite-gender-mind never seems to come through when transexuals speak/type.

1) I can see how pronouns can become a big deal. We understand the sociological affect that underrepresentation can have on minority groups, the striking thing about this case is that, for once, the males are the under-and/or-misrepresented group.

Big deals:

Starvation in poor countries
Climate change and other environmental destruction
Human rights abuses

Not big deals:
Pronouns

Fine, I won't call it mutilation any more.

This isn't intended as an insult, just a statement of my observations, but the opposite-gender-mind never seems to come through when transexuals speak/type.
? What the hell are you talking about? For one...how can you tell a person's gender from the way they type unless they TELL you? That 'voice' you hear, reading someone's text, is purely of your own creation. And as for speaking with transsexuals...well, you're wrong there as well. It comes through very clear.

? What the hell are you talking about? For one...how can you tell a person's gender from the way they type unless they TELL you? That 'voice' you hear, reading someone's text, is purely of your own creation. And as for speaking with transsexuals...well, you're wrong there as well. It comes through very clear.

I don't hear a voice when reading text, well except maybe my own. That's not what I meant. I think men and women just have different styles of speaking and typing. I can't explain exactly what it is. If it makes you happy to think I'm just imagining it, go ahead. I don't really care, I just thought I'd post what I'd observed.

I don't hear a voice when reading text, well except maybe my own. That's not what I meant. I think men and women just have different styles of speaking and typing. I can't explain exactly what it is. If it makes you happy to think I'm just imagining it, go ahead. I don't really care, I just thought I'd post what I'd observed.

I certainly can't tell anyone's gender from their typing, and any gender observations I make when I hear someone speak are generally based on what I observe of their sex and the pitch at which they speak more than anything. If a guy has a high melodious voice, I'll probably think that he sounds like a girl and vice versa.

Big deals:

Starvation in poor countries
Climate change and other environmental destruction
Human rights abuses

Not big deals:
Pronouns

Debate and intellectual inquiry about the usage of gendered language would not fall under the political sphere like the other examples, but the social and cultural sphere. They cannot be compared.

I don't hear a voice when reading text, well except maybe my own. That's not what I meant. I think men and women just have different styles of speaking and typing. I can't explain exactly what it is. If it makes you happy to think I'm just imagining it, go ahead. I don't really care, I just thought I'd post what I'd observed.

I agree. There are different writing and speaking styles between men and women. These are socialized of course.

But on forums like this, eventually you know who is a guy and who is girl when they eventually get OT and mention something that points either way. Just out of curiousity: male or female?

If a guy has a high melodious voice, I'll probably think that he sounds like a girl and vice versa.

Really? I've always thought that pitch makes little different to what gender a voice sounds like.

I agree. There are different writing and speaking styles between men and women. These are socialized of course.

But on forums like this, eventually you know who is a guy and who is girl when they eventually get OT and mention something that points either way. Just out of curiousity: male or female?

Male here.

No religious fundies yet? I'm surprised.

No religious fundies yet? I'm surprised.
give it time. I'm sure a few of 'em are watching their videotape recordings of 'The Hour of Power - live (recorded) from the Crystal Cathedral!!' right about now. Heck, they might be watching a new broadcast.

And then there's Benny Hinn, and Pat Robertson, blah blah blah... HALLELUJAHGOBBLE!



Up Father Phineas!

Up Fundaligionism!

HALLELUJAHGOBBLE!
HALLELUJAHGOBBLE!
HALLELUJAHGOBBLE!

Really? I've always thought that pitch makes little different to what gender a voice sounds like.

Depends on the person, but for me, if I don't see a person and they have a voice out of the normal range for their sex, I'm entirely likely to mistake them for the opposite sex.

EDIT: Then again, I always have had problems connecting observations on a large scale, so maybe it's just me.

I don't hear a voice when reading text, well except maybe my own. That's not what I meant. I think men and women just have different styles of speaking and typing. I can't explain exactly what it is. If it makes you happy to think I'm just imagining it, go ahead. I don't really care, I just thought I'd post what I'd observed.
I think, frankly, that you are vastly overestimating your abilities here. You may THINK you know someone's gender from the way they type, but I suspect you are often wrong. It would be an interesting little test, to see if you could actually tell. I really don't think the results would support your claims.

I think, frankly, that you are vastly overestimating your abilities here. You may THINK you know someone's gender from the way they type, but I suspect you are often wrong. It would be an interesting little test, to see if you could actually tell. I really don't think the results would support your claims.

Based on experiences in other forums, this is probably the most difficult places to tell who is male and female because of the use of ficticious country names for person names. Most country names sound feminine anyway, so there's really no telling.

I think, frankly, that you are vastly overestimating your abilities here. You may THINK you know someone's gender from the way they type, but I suspect you are often wrong. It would be an interesting little test, to see if you could actually tell. I really don't think the results would support your claims.

You may be right. I don't know.

transgendered, transexual, gay, lesbian, straight, other.....damn, nature's a bitch

Based on experiences in other forums, this is probably the most difficult places to tell who is male and female because of the use of ficticious country names for person names. Most country names sound feminine anyway, so there's really no telling.
Yea, there's alot of names here ending in things like "ia"...like "Potaria" or "Colodia" and they're guys.

I agree. There are different writing and speaking styles between men and women. There is a test somewhere online in which you can input text and it tries to establish what gender you are from your writing style. Apparently, I am a man. To be fair to it, though, I like to think of myself as a honoury man; very few things that I enjoy are traditionally female pastimes.

The test is here (http://www.bookblog.net/gender/genie.html); I got it from one of Max Barry's newsletters :p. Apparently, he is a woman :D

There is a test somewhere online in which you can input text and it tries to establish what gender you are from your writing style. Apparently, I am a man. To be fair to it, though, I like to think of myself as a honoury man; very few things that I enjoy are traditionally female pastimes.

The test is here (http://www.bookblog.net/gender/genie.html); I got it from one of Max Barry's newsletters :p. Apparently, he is a woman :D

LOL!

No matter what I put in, it keeps trying to tell me I'm male! =)

Based on experiences in other forums, this is probably the most difficult places to tell who is male and female because of the use of ficticious country names for person names. Most country names sound feminine anyway, so there's really no telling.
But names is not what Uber is talking about. He's talking about 'writing style'...and not needing any 'clues' outside of that style.

You may be right. I don't know.
I only challenge you on this because I used to think I was pretty sharp at telling someone's gender from their writing 'voice' as well. But BOY OH BOY have I been wrong! I was convinced that Santa Barbara was a woman. A woman with a very strident 'voice'. He is, however, not female in the slightest. There have been a number of times I've gotten the gender wrong...but then again, unless you have some way of confirming a poster's gender, maybe I was right after all, and they are simply posing as the opposite gender:)

There is a test somewhere online in which you can input text and it tries to establish what gender you are from your writing style. Apparently, I am a man. To be fair to it, though, I like to think of myself as a honoury man; very few things that I enjoy are traditionally female pastimes.

The test is here (http://www.bookblog.net/gender/genie.html); I got it from one of Max Barry's newsletters :p. Apparently, he is a woman :D
Well, I put in the text of my currently-in-progress story Dishonorable Scum of the Caribbean (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=456585), and the Gender Genie said:

Words: 3030

Female Score: 3880
Male Score: 3605

The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: female!
Which is, of course, wrong.
:p

Which is, of course, wrong. :pBloody thing's not much good, is it? :p Perhaps writing styles between men and women aren't so vastly different after all!

You're at a WOMAN's School. If you identify as a man so strongly that being called "she" sends you into epilliptic fits, then you need to get the Hell out.

Second.

i use "they" most of the time as it was originally the gender-nuetral word in english, and most people appear to understand it, and that confuses me with "he" and "she" as it takes a while to think about which it is before it is said. like lo, la, las, and los in spanish. it takes a while to think what it is first...
althought i also disagree with there being people not of one or the other gender, so this is not the reasone i call people in the nuetral pronoun.

The solution is for people to realize that it is a fucking pronoun and get over their goddamn selves. If your "sexual identity" can be torn into bloody little peices by a three letter word, then maybe you haven't thought the whole transgendered thing through enough.
Other possible answers, if the above wasn't to your taste:

You're at a WOMAN's School. If you identify as a man so strongly that being called "she" sends you into epilliptic fits, then you need to get the Hell out.
Have you got a penis? No? Then you're a She until you fix that. Have a nice night.


I fear that Fiddlebottoms here has the right of it. A crude but valid point here (3 of em, actually).

althought i also disagree with there being people not of one or the other gender, so this is not the reasone i call people in the nuetral pronoun.

how can you disagree with the way someone defines themself?

Bloody thing's not much good, is it? :p Perhaps writing styles between men and women aren't so vastly different after all!
Apparantly not. According to the web site, the algorithm has only a 58.63% success rate - greater than sheer chance, but still not very good. This despite claims by the scientists who developed the algorithm that it should be correct at least 80% of the time. Back to the drawing board, doc.

:p

If they identify themselves as male, why are they at a female school? That doesn't make sense. I figure if they're going to identify themselves as male, why would they go to a women's school? That simply doesn't make sense and seems inconsistant with identifying themselves as male.

If they identify themselves as male, why are they at a female school? That doesn't make sense. I figure if they're going to identify themselves as male, why would they go to a women's school? That simply doesn't make sense and seems inconsistant with identifying themselves as male.
Maybe they haven't transitioned, so they can't go to a male school? Or maybe they have, and the law in the country doesn't allow them to legally change sex, and therefore can't be accepted to a male school?

Possibilities, I suppose.

Maybe they haven't transitioned, so they can't go to a male school? Or maybe they have, and the law in the country doesn't allow them to legally change sex, and therefore can't be accepted to a male school?

Possibilities, I suppose.
Why can't they go to a coed school?

Last I checked, there were some of those around.

Why can't they go to a coed school?

Last I checked, there were some of those around.
Maybe they got sent their by their parents or something? I don't know :p

The solution is for people to realize that it is a fucking pronoun and get over their goddamn selves. If your "sexual identity" can be torn into bloody little peices by a three letter word, then maybe you haven't thought the whole transgendered thing through enough.
Other possible answers, if the above wasn't to your taste:

You're at a WOMAN's School. If you identify as a man so strongly that being called "she" sends you into epilliptic fits, then you need to get the Hell out.
Have you got a penis? No? Then your a She until you fix that. Have a nice night.


Second Second....or Third maybe...I'm not sure. Point is, I agree.

transgendered, transexual, gay, lesbian, straight, other.....damn, nature's a bitch

Careful, you (in a non-gender assaulting descriptive of the poster known as North Westeros) don't know what nature (?he/she/it? note my new fear of gender descriptive pronouns) might think about that statement. :p