NationStates Jolt Archive

The difference in attitude is marked - even if the essential income levels are not that different:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051126/NEWS01/511260450/1006

MONTGOMERY, Ind. -- Within hours of a tornado tearing apart the homes and businesses belonging to scores of Amish and Mennonite families in Southern Indiana, much of the debris was already being cleared and roofs were being rebuilt.

Days after last week's storm, fellow Amish from across Indiana and other states had arrived to help the community rebuild.

Simon and Alma Graber lost the back of their house and most of two hog barns Nov. 15 as the tornado, with winds of up to 200 mph, cut a 12-mile path through the area midway between Evansville and Bloomington. But their farm was shaping back up a few days later thanks to about 45 Amish workers.

"I don't know what we'd do without (them)," Alma Graber said.

Many of the Amish and Mennonite men are carpenters and tradesmen, and they quickly began building new roofs and trusses with the framing and walls already finished. Nobody remained idle, as women, children and younger men cleaned up fields littered with tin, housewares, clothing and insulation ripped from the homes.

Patrick Boylan, director of the Homeland Security program at Vincennes University, said the quick rebuilding work was far different from what he saw during an October trip to the hurricane-hit Gulf Coast.
"In the South, everybody is still waiting for someone else to do something for them," Boylan said. "We need to send them (the Amish and Mennonite residents) down to teach them how to be self-reliant. Their resourcefulness is amazing."

People from Amish and Mennonites communities in Northern Indiana and from Illinois, Pennsylvania and Ohio have spent time helping rebuild.

"I know if this happened to me, I would appreciate the help," said Lester Lengacher, a 17-year-old from Fort Wayne who was helping the Grabers, whom he'd never met before.

About 80 percent of the more than 100 homes heavily damaged or destroyed by the tornado in Daviess and Martin counties belong to Amish and Mennonites, officials said.

Jack Graber, who's spent all his life in the Daviess County Amish community, where his daughter and three grandchildren also live, said all those working knew the rebuilding needed to be quick as winter approached.

"This is just the way we were brought up," he said. "We don't generally wait on the government, and up until now we could always take care of our own losses."

While it often takes months for the visible scars left by tornadoes to be repaired, Daviess County Sheriff Jerry Harbstreit said the Amish response was quickly returning homes and lives to normal.

"In a couple of weeks, we won't be able to tell anything even happened here," he said.

Of course, there were no TVs to steal either... :rolleyes:

See that? It's an apple. See this? It's an orange. Although they're both round and fruit, comparing them is a mistake.

See that? It's an apple. See this? It's an orange. Although they're both round and fruit, comparing them is a mistake.

See that? It's a bunch of people who live in Louisiana. See this? It's a bunch of people who live in Indiana. They're both people, and... well, yeah, they're both people. Um, no real difference at all, it seems, except in attitude... :p

You can't fix your house if the first floor is under fucking water you idiot.

You can't fix your house if the first floor is under fucking water you idiot.

Under fucking water.... Hmmm. Never seen a house in a Hot Tub before, but I'll have to take your word for it. :rolleyes:

Only a small percentage of the Hurricane areas were under water for any length of time.

But that is not the point. The Amish who had their homes destroyed did NOT go whining to FEMA, they grabbed a hammer/shovel and went to work cleaning up. No $2000 debit cards. No FemaVilles. Just people willing to WORK together to get ready for winter.

What's the difference? The Amish & Mennonites are Self Reliant to the core and would not think to take from the Government (which they barely recognise anyway) what they can do for themselves.

Well, when a multi million dollar agency that has the power to break many laws and even the constitution is set up for an emergency just like New Orleans you expect it to do something.

There was a rather big difference though. The disaster at New Orleans was a lot bigger and many people were left stranded on rooftops and had to be forcibly evacuated because of fear of diseases so they couldn't even go in and rebuild their homes if they wanted to.

Plus it seems as though entire amish communities are banding together to rebuild the few homes that are damaged. Rather than in New Orleans where a large portion of the city was damaged so rather than a large community fixing the homes of one or two families, you have a large commuinity who all lost their homes. Unless they band together and build one family's home at a time while they go homeless until the community gets around to rebuilding their homes...

See that? It's an apple. See this? It's an orange. Although they're both round and fruit, comparing them is a mistake.
The only difference is the root cause of the damage.

There is no real difference, except for the self-reliance and strongwill the Amish and Mennonites have demonstrated in the face of adversity. They didn't keel to the whim of nature. They grew up dependant on themselves.

Yes, that is the only difference; the way they grew up.

But, they are indeed an example of good old fashion self-reliance.

Further, even if Katrina's victims aren't skilled in the same arts that those of the tornado were, they could certainly put on a pair of gloves or whatever safety gear is needed, roll up their sleeves and help put their city back together.

If they are worried about income, it seems to have forgotten that one can get a job helping with clean up, and various others that get the economy going again.

Well, when a multi million dollar agency that has the power to break many laws and even the constitution is set up for an emergency just like New Orleans you expect it to do something. Yes. I expect it to pass out cheques. I expect the locals to begin working on the cleanup, en-masse, as soon as and wherever possible.

There was a rather big difference though. The disaster at New Orleans was a lot bigger and many people were left stranded on rooftops and had to be forcibly evacuated because of fear of diseases so they couldn't even go in and rebuild their homes if they wanted to.

Plus it seems as though entire amish communities are banding together to rebuild the few homes that are damaged. Rather than in New Orleans where a large portion of the city was damaged so rather than a large community fixing the homes of one or two families, you have a large commuinity who all lost their homes. Unless they band together and build one family's home at a time while they go homeless until the community gets around to rebuilding their homes...
I wouldn't call 80 homes in a 12 mile area "a few". But the point still remains that the volunteer effort / dig-out vs. hand-out mentality is striking.

I wouldn't call 80 homes in a 12 mile area "a few". But the point still remains that the volunteer effort / dig-out vs. hand-out mentality is striking.
I thought there was more damage than that? (oops... for Katrina, I was thinking. I got confused there)
They were forcing people who wanted to stick around out of the city though, for fear of cholera and the like... so people weren't even allowed to stay around and fix their homes.

I thought there was more damage than that?
They were forcing people who wanted to stick around out of the city though, for fear of cholera and the like... so people weren't even allowed to stay around and fix their homes.
Which is just stupid.

The city is very limited now, and if they let these people in, something might get done.

Which is just stupid.

The city is very limited now, and if they let these people in, something might get done.
Well, if they all get cholera then there will be a bit of an issue...

But they should have things cleaned up by now shouldn't they? I mean, it's been like 3 months...

Well, if they all get cholera then there will be a bit of an issue...

But they should have things cleaned up by now shouldn't they? I mean, it's been like 3 months...
Well the water has receeded, and it has been 3 months, so, it does seem extreme in my less than humble opinion (screw pointless acronyms!)

Well the water has receeded, and it has been 3 months, so, it does seem extreme in my less than humble opinion (screw pointless acronyms!)
I dunno what's going on down there anymore. It was all over the news for a bit, I was appalled that things were handled so badly and then it disappeared. I haven't really made an effort to keep up on what's going on. Between school and issues that are closer to home I haven't been keeping track.

I dunno what's going on down there anymore. It was all over the news for a bit, I was appalled that things were handled so badly and then it disappeared. I haven't really made an effort to keep up on what's going on. Between school and issues that are closer to home I haven't been keeping track.
Well, BBC News was covering it, and it was speaking of some moderate, though slow progress.

Well, BBC News was covering it, and it was speaking of some moderate, though slow progress.
Well, that's good, I guess.

I thought there was more damage than that? (oops... for Katrina, I was thinking. I got confused there)
They were forcing people who wanted to stick around out of the city though, for fear of cholera and the like... so people weren't even allowed to stay around and fix their homes.
That was only the case for downtown NO. There was a lot of damage in a lot of places. It seems to me there were an awful lot of "out of work" people waiting for handouts rather than helping (non-NO/quarantined areas) dig out.

(In fact, the lack of Willing Labor was bad enough that South/Central American Migrant Workers (many illegal) have flooded the area. Not that they still wouldn't have been "needed", but it seems that there are a lot more working immigrants than working NOers....)

Currently all the houses in New Orleans that were flooded are now growing all kinds of molds and fungus that make the houses unlivable and serious enviromental risks. But Mayor Negan doesn't care since he wants people to come back to New Orleans and SCREW their health!

It's all about the money! (or in this case, Mardi Gras!)

Currently all the houses in New Orleans that were flooded are now growing all kinds of molds and fungus that make the houses unlivable and serious enviromental risks. Not all. Only the ones built by people who didn't take the enviornment into consideration during design/construction. A house made of Brick or Concrete Block needs very little remediation whereas a "stick & gypsum" house is essentially ruined.
But Mayor Negan doesn't care since he wants people to come back to New Orleans and SCREW their health! When has he cared? Remember the Busses.
It's all about the money! (or in this case, Mardi Gras!)
And this is unusual how?

so how did the Amish respond to their houses being flooded for weeks? I didn't see anything comparing the Amish response to a flood to the Gulf Coaster response to a flood. I guess the article didn't have anything to tell us

You can't fix your house if the first floor is under fucking water you idiot.
WARNED for flaming. Please keep the asshattery to a minimum in the future.

And you don't think this has to do with the work ethic and culture of the Amish in particular, rather than with government assistance?

I'm sure Homo Economicus is very hard-working, and always willing to help out other people in need, but real-life people aren't.

And don't forget this: If the Amish need to repair a house, they go and cut down a tree and start working. They have people there that know how this stuff is being done. Also note that there is no large sums of money involved.

In New Orleans, you need specialists to build your house. And those specialists want money. Money is not something readily available in poor suburbs of New Orleans.

It really is Apples and Oranges.

Oh please.

If the original poster were someone like Swimmingpool or Letila we'd all be singing a happy collectivist chorus about how industrious $RELIGIOUS_MINORITY is and how they deserve more recognition from the Heartless Right. Are there significant differences in the amount of damage caused? Sure. Is it easier for the Amish [who seem to love building things anyway] to fix up after a tornado than it is for NO residents to get back to square one? Of course. I probably wouldn't invoke the comparison, but I can sort of see where Syniks is coming from here. It would probably be more worthwhile to compare this to another tornadic event wherein the victims saw it fit to sit on their ass and wait for disaster funds: I'm sure it's happened more than once.

Still, I think most of the New Orleans folks just thought that the situation was more or less out of control; and it was. That doesn't justify all the theft and violence and whatnot, but it is worth mentioning. I think the point Syniks is trying to make here is that this kind of overall response would be nice to see for a change: just because something big and nasty happens doesn't mean it has to be dealt with poorly.

... the volunteer effort / dig-out vs. hand-out mentality is striking.
Isn't it though.

*sighs*
Hurricane Katrina:
Deaths = 1,325
Area = 90,000 sq miles
Cost $70-$130 billion (est)

Plus flooding for about a month and the largest migration in resent US history as jobs, homes, services, FOOD, water, medical care, eveything is gone.

Indiana Tornado of November 15th:
Deaths = None, though 16 reported injured
Area = Parts of four states, different funnel clouds though. But we'll go with the 12 miles mentioned.
Cost = N/A, but wasn't even declared to be a federal disaster. Hell, I can't find a STATE disaster decleration.

It's a whole hell of a lot easier to rebuild when you have something to rebuild with ya know.

See that? It's an apple. See this? It's an orange. Although they're both round and fruit, comparing them is a mistake.

Accully...

http://www.people.virginia.edu/%7Erjh9u/apporang.html


All joking aside, what people have said about the situations being very different is true. Also, it's the attutude you were raised in. The Amish do everything for themselves. Modern city dwellers arn't expected to know how to build houses, fix cars, grow their own food, fix plumbing, et cetera. We're trained to specialise, get a job, and use the money from that to get other people specialised to do stuff like plumbing for getting food to do it for us.

Look, all things govt. motivated are done with greed. You, as subjected people, are out of luck. you are subject to their will. you have no say. God Bless America.:headbang:

Oh please.

If the original poster were someone like Swimmingpool or Letila we'd all be singing a happy collectivist chorus about how industrious $RELIGIOUS_MINORITY is and how they deserve more recognition from the Heartless Right.

if it was from letila (or me) it would probably have been about how the authorities have actively interefered with NO community groups (established, new, and spontaneous) working to rescue people, clean up, rebuild, etc.

the amish have the right idea. it's not about self-reliance at all though. it's about solidarity and community. they are particularly fortunate in that their community posses the skills to deal with rebuilding for themselves and they don't go all profitteering against the victims on tragedy. unlike the bastard landlords and their pals in the government who have been evicting people left and right in NO and jacking up the rents.

I probably wouldn't invoke the comparison, but I can sort of see where Syniks is coming from here. It would probably be more worthwhile to compare this to another tornadic event wherein the victims saw it fit to sit on their ass and wait for disaster funds: I'm sure it's happened more than once.
But the fundamental idea he's (she's?) invoking here is that these people get by without government help - it's a typical libertarian argument.

And I'm saying to that that the Amish have simple communities, where specialisation is nowhere near the level it is outside their little world (sorry by the way if I'm offending any Amish people...but then again, you should probably get away from that computer).

The idea would perhaps be that the various specialists would help each other out after a disaster, so that the government need not be involved.
But that is very unrealistic, considering that today seldomly does anyone do anything for a stranger if it doesn't involve money.
Someone would also have to coordinate all the different specialists to come together - that too would be a government (or quasi-government).
And finally, some specialists are more useful in a disaster situation than others. We do love our C++ Programmers, but I wouldn't ask one to redo my plumbing. So even a trade between specialists would be difficult, if it wasn't done with money again.

Which brings us to our final point - without government assistance, people who are poor anyways cannot engage in the trade necessary to rebuild their homes. Our society is too complex for that.

if it was from letila (or me) it would probably have been about how the authorities have actively interefered with NO community groups (established, new, and spontaneous) working to rescue people, clean up, rebuild, etc.

the amish have the right idea. it's not about self-reliance at all though. it's about solidarity and community. they are particularly fortunate in that their community posses the skills to deal with rebuilding for themselves and they don't go all profitteering against the victims on tragedy. unlike the bastard landlords and their pals in the government who have been evicting people left and right in NO and jacking up the rents.
you see the logic. But corperations and govt.'s see nothing more than an economic boost. desasters create chaos, chaos makes destruction, destruction makes for rebuilding, rebuilding creates jobs, jobs boost economy, and rebuilt structures are in the path of destrution.

and as for the amish thing, i like my computer.

you see the logic. But corperations and govt.'s see nothing more than an economic boost. desasters create chaos, chaos makes destruction, destruction makes for rebuilding, rebuilding creates jobs, jobs boost economy, and rebuilt structures are in the path of destrution.

Broken-window fallacy. You should read Henry Hazlitt's book Economics In One Lesson.

Broken-window fallacy. You should read Henry Hazlitt's book Economics In One Lesson.

wait, who are you attributing the broken window 'fallacy' to?

I wouldn't call 80 homes in a 12 mile area "a few". But the point still remains that the volunteer effort / dig-out vs. hand-out mentality is striking.

Erm, my little town barely pushes over 4,100, yet we're far, far more more densely populated than that. So yes, I would call 80 homes in 12 miles 'a few.'

Tornadoes are unpleasant events, aye; they can cause quite a bit of property damage. However, they tend to be very nonlethal, strike a very small area, and last for only five minutes.

Hurricanes, by contrast, are just a little big bigger- you're able to see a hurricane from space, it lasts for weeks rather than minutes, and that property damage comes with lethalities- especially since, in the case of New Orleans, unique conditions caused significant portions of the city to be flooded.

There's a significant difference between a thinly-populated area with an unusually broad pool of talented carpenters just following an event that lasted for only a few minutes, and a huge city with the specialization involved in that (not many carpenters here) returning home after a weeks-long ordeal that left many areas flooded and mildewing (and yes, brick does get mildew damage). I'd say apples and oranges is a good analogy here.

Final thought: Here's a crazy idea: Maybe people and the government can work together, rather than shifting the entire burden to one side! :eek: Truly astonishing, what mad thoughts one creates in the wee hours...

See that? It's an apple. See this? It's an orange. Although they're both round and fruit, comparing them is a mistake.

Well put.

Nobody remained idle, as women, children and younger men cleaned up fields littered with tin, housewares, clothing and insulation ripped from the homes.
How long must we tolerate the Amish capitalist exploitation of children? Haven't these selfish bastards ever heard of child labor laws?

Well, when a multi million dollar agency that has the power to break many laws and even the constitution is set up for an emergency just like New Orleans you expect it to do something.
You expect it to do something and I expect it to do something. Our expectations are probably not the same. FEMA exceeded my expectations. I knew it would be bad but not that bad.

WARNED for flaming. Please keep the asshattery to a minimum in the future.
Woah, how long have you been a mod?

WARNED for flaming. Please keep the asshattery to a minimum in the future.

Wow. Rather harsh.

He was making a legitimate point.

I'd hate to see what would have happened if the Amish had suffered the same sort of storm as New Orleans. Those Mennonite rescue helicopters and Amish coastguard ships leave a lot to be desired.

I'd hate to see what would have happened if the Amish had suffered the same sort of storm as New Orleans. Those Mennonite rescue helicopters and Amish coastguard ships leave a lot to be desired.

:D

Accully...

http://www.people.virginia.edu/%7Erjh9u/apporang.html


All joking aside, what people have said about the situations being very different is true. Also, it's the attutude you were raised in. The Amish do everything for themselves. Modern city dwellers arn't expected to know how to build houses, fix cars, grow their own food, fix plumbing, et cetera. We're trained to specialise, get a job, and use the money from that to get other people specialised to do stuff like plumbing for getting food to do it for us.You have a valid point, but the people who do those things mostly live in cities. Many food growers live near cities. RE: Katrina, many many skilled professionals were forcefully prevented from helping by FEMA and other federal and federally controlled agencies.

See that? It's an apple. See this? It's an orange. Although they're both round and fruit, comparing them is a mistake.

See that? Those are a collection of idiots, waiting for the government to do everything for them - and when it doesn't, their sense of entitlement causes them to loot and pillage.

See this? It's a collection of self-reliant people who don't believe they are entitled to have their lives lived for them by the government.

Not a mistake to compare them at all.

And you don't think this has to do with the work ethic and culture of the Amish in particular, rather than with government assistance?
Yes. Absolutely. That was the whole point of this thread. I was not bashing the government, only pointing out the absolute difference in work ethic and community.
I'm sure Homo Economicus is very hard-working, and always willing to help out other people in need, but real-life people aren't.Why not? It seemed to work for Keruvalia when he stayed behind for the Houston Hurricane.
And don't forget this: If the Amish need to repair a house, they go and cut down a tree and start working. They have people there that know how this stuff is being done.Note the bit I highlighted about how NO ONE stood idly by. Everyone was helping in the cleanup - even if they couldn't help rebuild. Also note that there is no large sums of money involved.And this has exactly what to do with the attitude of the people involved - other than to prove my point that group A is greedy and lazy and group B is not?
In New Orleans, you need specialists to build your house. And those specialists want money. Money is not something readily available in poor suburbs of New Orleans.And it is on an Amish Subsistance Farm?
It really is Apples and Oranges.Nope. If I was comparing Damage it might be... but I was comparing Attitudes and work ethic - somthing that is comparable in any circumstance. The Amish are by no means Rich, but they Work - crisis or no - rather than wait for handouts.

See that? It's a bunch of people who live in Louisiana. See this? It's a bunch of people who live in Indiana. They're both people, and... well, yeah, they're both people. Um, no real difference at all, it seems, except in attitude... :p
And where would those people be if the Amish went "Screw them."? They would be out on their asses in motels while waiting for the government to come fix shit. We know the Amish and Mennonites live by their own creed and rules; you prove nothing by saying they are getting stuff cleaned up and rebuilt.

Not to mention tornadoes are not hurricanes.

Woah, how long have you been a mod?

It's been a while. Beats me how he made it but then, I know worse mods by far. Maybe the admin missed the Permaban button by accident :p

Woah, how long have you been a mod?
Um.... since April of 2003. I was the first one.

Wow. Rather harsh.

He was making a legitimate point.
And he could have just as easily made the point civilly. If I made a good point and stuck "fucking idiot" in there in regards to, say, you, hhow legitimate a point do you think it would be then?

Still, I marked it as "mild" in the tag, which usually means that he'll get a break if he collects another offense. I just happened to have the Centre up at the time.


...the amish have the right idea. it's not about self-reliance at all though. it's about solidarity and community...

Oh please.

If the original poster were someone like Swimmingpool or Letila we'd all be singing a happy collectivist chorus about how industrious $RELIGIOUS_MINORITY is and how they deserve more recognition from the Heartless Right...
I rest my case.

Also, if fixing your own house and your own neighborhood after a disaster isn't self-reliance, I don't know what is. Your logic is tedious at best.

Leonstein: I understand and agree with much of what you have to say, and would like to point out once again that I personally would not invoke this comparison, nor would I cite it as undeniable proof of the superiority of individualism. Reality is ripe with better examples anyway.

Also, if fixing your own house and your own neighborhood after a disaster isn't self-reliance, I don't know what is. Your logic is tedious at best.

from the original article:

"People from Amish and Mennonites communities in Northern Indiana and from Illinois, Pennsylvania and Ohio have spent time helping rebuild.

"I know if this happened to me, I would appreciate the help," said Lester Lengacher, a 17-year-old from Fort Wayne who was helping the Grabers, whom he'd never met before."

perhaps you means something different by 'self-reliance' than i do. to me, self-reliance is more "everyone for themsevles, i take care of me, you take care of yourself" than having a number of people from the wider community and people from different communities entirely come in to collectively work together on something.

The only difference is the root cause of the damage.

There is no real difference, except for the self-reliance and strongwill the Amish and Mennonites have demonstrated in the face of adversity. They didn't keel to the whim of nature. They grew up dependant on themselves.

Yes, that is the only difference; the way they grew up.

But, they are indeed an example of good old fashion self-reliance.

Further, even if Katrina's victims aren't skilled in the same arts that those of the tornado were, they could certainly put on a pair of gloves or whatever safety gear is needed, roll up their sleeves and help put their city back together.

If they are worried about income, it seems to have forgotten that one can get a job helping with clean up, and various others that get the economy going again.

yep, there are two americas...

Those who do it

and

Those who expect it to be done for them

cripes, this is what the welfare state has done... all this "progressive" horseshit -- "The government will be your mom and dad and take care of you hand and foot. Don't do anything for yourself, just rely on Big Government."

What happens when things go wrong? Whose fault is it? Is anything my fault if I'm totally dependent on government?

self-reliance, personal responsibility are not even in some people's vocabularies.

from the original article:

"People from Amish and Mennonites communities in Northern Indiana and from Illinois, Pennsylvania and Ohio have spent time helping rebuild.

"I know if this happened to me, I would appreciate the help," said Lester Lengacher, a 17-year-old from Fort Wayne who was helping the Grabers, whom he'd never met before."

perhaps you means something different by 'self-reliance' than i do. to me, self-reliance is more "everyone for themsevles, i take care of me, you take care of yourself" than having a number of people from the wider community and people from different communities entirely come in to collectively work together on something.

Self-reliance means that you do for yourself AND your community without waiting for the government to do it for you.

Instead of standing in a wrecked sports center waiting for the government to transport you, or instead of looting and pillaging and raping, you fill the need - you provide transport if you can - you use your gun to provide security for your neighbors - you share your food and feed the family next door.

Too many people in the US think it's the government's responsibility to do this.

You have a valid point, but the people who do those things mostly live in cities. Many food growers live near cities. RE: Katrina, many many skilled professionals were forcefully prevented from helping by FEMA and other federal and federally controlled agencies.

In the Amish community, everyone is a carpenter. In NO, very little people out of the total community are.

While the Amish do indeed have a greater work ethic and sence of self-reliance, you cannot fault the victims of hurricane katrina for not rebuilding their city, which they had not the recorces nor skills to do on their own.

See that? Those are a collection of idiots, waiting for the government to do everything for them - and when it doesn't, their sense of entitlement causes them to loot and pillage.

Yes, blame the victim. When your whole city is underwater, when you can't get to your house because of desiese, when you have everything you ever worked for snatched away, when you've been through what these people have, then you can talk.

And these people payed taxes, therefor the government should help in a situation that is out of their control.


In the real world, you need certain skills and recources to get things done. You can't magically fix a flooded city with a hardy can-do attitude and nothing else.


In the Amish case, there was excess labor, because only a small part of the community was damaged. In NO, everyone was effected, and everyone needed help.

Self-reliance means that you do for yourself AND your community without waiting for the government to do it for you.

but once you get organized communitiy involvement aren't you more or less replicating on a small scale what people think the idealized state ought do in such situations? and, as everyone likes to argue in all the anarchy threads, isn't that just government? (i think it could reasonably be called government of a sort, though it certainly isn't the state)

Instead of standing in a wrecked sports center waiting for the government to transport you, or instead of looting and pillaging and raping, you fill the need - you provide transport if you can - you use your gun to provide security for your neighbors - you share your food and feed the family next door.

Too many people in the US think it's the government's responsibility to do this.

i disagree somewhat. there needs to be a lot more looting in a much more organized fashion. when disaster strikes and people need help, it is your duty to break down the door to the nearest walmart and grab all that you can to distribute to those in need. it is your duty to take unused buses, cars, boats, whatever and organize transport out for people and in for looted and donated supplies. and when you help get people out to safety, it's your duty to help take over the available rooms at hotels and motels for them and again loot more supplies from the nearest walmart.

people do tend to think the state will actually fill what they view as it's obligation to organize all this for them. this is partially because the state goes out of its way to claim for itself the power to organize most aspects of life, especially on large scales. it's also partly because the state actively undermines such action outside of itself. i seem to recall that the state was actually blocking certain sections of the population from evacuating themselves. at gunpoint, no less.

people ought not trust the state to help them, because the state just won't do the job properly. but they can't be blamed too much for doing so, since the state itself has worked to create dependency and actively disrupts alternatives.

but once you get organized communitiy involvement aren't you more or less replicating on a small scale what people think the idealized state ought do in such situations? and, as everyone likes to argue in all the anarchy threads, isn't that just government? (i think it could reasonably be called government of a sort, though it certainly isn't the state)

If you've read my comments on such a form of government, you will find that I don't object to it at that size - but it does present scaling problems - problems that the Hutterites know all about.

Collective action on a small scale works quite well - in fact, it usually works better than government imposed from on high - but it suffers from scaling problems.

i disagree somewhat. there needs to be a lot more looting in a much more organized fashion. when disaster strikes and people need help, it is your duty to break down the door to the nearest walmart and grab all that you can to distribute to those in need. it is your duty to take unused buses, cars, boats, whatever and organize transport out for people and in for looted and donated supplies. and when you help get people out to safety, it's your duty to help take over the available rooms at hotels and motels for them and again loot more supplies from the nearest walmart.

Taking that 72 inch plasma TV, or setting fire to the Mall for fun isn't the sort of thing I approve of. Raping women or robbing people isn't something I approve of either.

I have no problem with people (even individuals) taking food or necessaries.

Taking that 72 inch plasma TV, or setting fire to the Mall for fun isn't the sort of thing I approve of. Raping women or robbing people isn't something I approve of either.

i personally can't bring myself to care whether somebody who has lost everything tries to take a tv that has already been written off as a loss on the insurance of the store they got it from.

as for the raping, robbing, and rampaging - that was almost entirely an urban myth, amped up by repeated news reports about the same few actions, which treated the one event that they all had footage of as indicative of how things were all over all the time.

i personally can't bring myself to care whether somebody who has lost everything tries to take a tv that has already been written off as a loss on the insurance of the store they got it from.

as for the raping, robbing, and rampaging - that was almost entirely an urban myth, amped up by repeated news reports about the same few actions, which treated the one event that they all had footage of as indicative of how things were all over all the time.

The one thing that was true was the sitting and waiting by the thousands. You could watch that all day on TV.

They were waiting for the government to do something. Well, if you're waiting for the government to help you, you'll be waiting a long time. And when you do get any "help", it's likely to be too little, too late, or in a form that is unpleasant.

IMHO, this is a pretty rotten example of self-reliance trumping dependance.
There's definitely better examples out there besides people who've lost everything in hurricanes and tornadoes. I'm just not feelin' it. *shrugs*

The one thing that was true was the sitting and waiting by the thousands. You could watch that all day on TV.

They were waiting for the government to do something. Well, if you're waiting for the government to help you, you'll be waiting a long time. And when you do get any "help", it's likely to be too little, too late, or in a form that is unpleasant.

Maby because the governemt said "go wait here, we'll take care of you" and the people, who had been paying taxes their whole lives, said "ok" and then were left high and dry. That's why alot of folk down there were pissed. The gov broke it's word.

Besides, as I said, the residents of NO had neither the skills nor the recources to rebuild their city.

Imagine that? JOLT had another one of its fuckups, and now my post-count, siggy, everything is gone. WTF?

Imagine that? JOLT had another one of its fuckups, and now my post-count, siggy, everything is gone. WTF?

Damn, that must suck.

:D
You need to know that the Mennonite churches in our area (large concentration of Amish and Mennonite families) are the spearhead of relief efforts around the world. Truckloads of materials were collected and dispatched to the Gulf relief effort. Van loads of volunteers of ALL Denominations went south in shifts to help with the hurricane diaster.

Of course the scale of the catastrophes is different (Indianna and New Orleans) but you are missing the basic point of the thread, as I interprete it--- is this society producing a self-reliant population able to voluntarily come together and deal with its problems or is it producing a mindless mob; incapable of dealing with a crisis if the electricty goes off.

Damn, that must suck.
Yes, I'm going to have to wait for a response from one of the mods... and we all know how quickly they "fix" these kinds of problems. :rolleyes:

What's the difference? The Amish & Mennonites are Self Reliant to the core and would not think to take from the Government (which they barely recognise anyway) what they can do for themselves.
The Amish and Mennonites are also communities that have been raised learning how to work with one another. Not neighbourhoods of strangers or acquaintances. It IS apples and oranges. You don't get that kind of community involvement overnight...it takes lifetimes to develop.

WARNED for flaming. Please keep the asshattery to a minimum in the future.
I don't actually think I've ever seen Melkor warn anyone before! *gets goosebumps*

Yes, I'm going to have to wait for a response from one of the mods... and we all know how quickly they "fix" these kinds of problems. :rolleyes:

All technical stuff is handled by jolt.

All technical stuff is handled by jolt.
Than I'll resign myself to the position as the only "NS Ghost" here!
Post count? Pu-leeeze. That's below someone of my posting caliber.
Location? I'm obviously omnipotent, and thus this is not applicable.

Czardas, eat your heart out! There's a new God in town, mortal. ;)

Than I'll resign myself to the position as the only "NS Ghost" here!
Post count? Pu-leeeze. That's below someone of my posting caliber.
Location? I'm obviously omnipotent, and thus this is not applicable.

Czardas, eat your heart out! There's a new God in town, mortal. ;)

Eichen, Please get over yourself. Like any of us care.

Eichen, Please get over yourself. Like any of us care.
Sylvanworld, please KMFA. Get a sense of humor, while you're at it. :rolleyes:

Also, a n00b like yourslef shouldn't use the word "us" here.
Nobody knows who you are, nor do they give a flying fuck.

Get over yourself.

Self-reliance means that you do for yourself AND your community without waiting for the government to do it for you.

Instead of standing in a wrecked sports center waiting for the government to transport you, or instead of looting and pillaging and raping, you fill the need - you provide transport if you can - you use your gun to provide security for your neighbors - you share your food and feed the family next door.

Too many people in the US think it's the government's responsibility to do this.


How about sitting in your attic for a few days? Its 95 and humid outside-how high does the temp climb to in the attic ?

Sooner or later, someone in a helicopter will come and cut you out.

I'm ready and prepared to make an informed decision on what to do here. I either decide to stay-in which case I have enough supplies to comfortably supply my families needs-and defend it. I have enough to help out immediate neighbors too. I can cook and produce heat if there is no power. I have water and can purify more.
Or, take the grab bags and essentials and get the family into either well maintained vehicle and head inland, equiped with hotel 800 #s to call and make reservations on the way.
Especially if I had two full days warning.

Its my responsibilty to my family and myself to make sure we can sustain our needs without waiting and counting on outside help.
Or standing in line for national guard water trucks with an empty cooking oil container or government cheese.

I went so far as to have a course of antibiotics and a scope for my children's ears in case they get and ear infection and we cant get medical help.

Also, a n00b like yourslef shouldn't use the word "us" here.
Nobody knows who you are, nor do they give a flying fuck.

Get over yourself.
ah, profanity the last resort of an otherwise overworked mind.

I guess the dinosaurs were pissed off when the mammels showed up.:cool:

Also, a n00b like yourslef shouldn't use the word "us" here.
Nobody knows who you are, nor do they give a flying fuck.

Get over yourself.
but, hey, let's get back on subject, no?

but, hey, let's get back on subject, no?
Yes, let's.

I'm not sure why anyone would choose this example to point out sloth amongst our own citizens. If anything, the Katrina disaster pretty much killed all conversations concerning government efficiency. I think that's a better arguement. JMHO, though.

You need to know that the Mennonite churches in our area (large concentration of Amish and Mennonite families) are the spearhead of relief efforts around the world. Truckloads of materials were collected and dispatched to the Gulf relief effort. Van loads of volunteers of ALL Denominations went south in shifts to help with the hurricane diaster.

Of course the scale of the catastrophes is different (Indianna and New Orleans) but you are missing the basic point of the thread, as I interprete it--- is this society producing a self-reliant population able to voluntarily come together and deal with its problems or is it producing a mindless mob; incapable of dealing with a crisis if the electricty goes off.

You interpreted correctly. :cool: (Hands Sylvanwold the whole cookie jar.)

I compared the community responses to the Tornadoes vs. Hurricanes because the FEMA/HS guy in the article did.

Again - my point was less of "rebuilding" vs. "not rebuilding" and more of "Nobody was Idle" vs "where's my cheque $2000?"

The Amish and Mennonites are also communities that have been raised learning how to work with one another. Not neighbourhoods of strangers or acquaintances. It IS apples and oranges. You don't get that kind of community involvement overnight...it takes lifetimes to develop.How about Prunes and Plums? ;) But in a sense, you are right. It has, in fact, taken aproximately 40 years since Johnson's "Great Society" to create an entire subculture that believes in community entitlement before community effort.

The Amish and Mennonites are also communities that have been raised learning how to work with one another. Not neighbourhoods of strangers or acquaintances. It IS apples and oranges. You don't get that kind of community involvement overnight...it takes lifetimes to develop.

I don't live in an Amish or Mennonite community, but I and my neighbors have already worked on our own disaster plans.

We didn't even grow up together - we just know the government isn't going to show up in time to really help.

If only more of america was more like these people.

If only more of america was more like these people.
I think most of America is more self-reliant than what you saw in New Orleans. When Hurricane Charley ripped through Punta Gorda last year and tore up our condo and many others, everyone pitched in and helped each other clear debris. It didn't take too long before the roads were usable and the adjustors started showing up.

The folks that have decided to live in large cities are much more dependent on government services than anyone else. That's fine during normal times, but they aren't the ones I'd want to be around when a real disaster strikes.