NationStates Jolt Archive

This pole will find out how many people agree with prayer in public schools.

This pole will find out how many people agree with prayer in public schools.

What type of prayer? Kids praying quietly themselves or something like school led/sponsored prayer?

Prayer is allowed in the public school, in the sense that they can't stop my kid from praying. I don't believe it should go any further than that.

I don't think the school should lead a prayer or have special prayer time, it's kinda "grab it when you can" which is what it's like in real life too.

Does prayer belong in school? sure, in the sense that you can pray on your bathroom break, or before you eat lunch, or on the playground.

No! What the hell is wrong with you!? God's busy! Quit bothering him!

Prayer is allowed in the public school, in the sense that they can't stop my kid from praying. I don't believe it should go any further than that.

I don't think the school should lead a prayer or have special prayer time, it's kinda "grab it when you can" which is what it's like in real life too.

Does prayer belong in school? sure, in the sense that you can pray on your bathroom break, or before you eat lunch, or on the playground.

This sums up my opinion on the subject pretty well. Though the poll is confusing because the poster makes no distinction between these two types of prayer. You'd think they would want to make a poll on a topic like this as clear as possible.

Unless it's a private/religious education institutuion, prayer has zero place in a public school, as it violates the rights of us who don't wish to be exposed to that tripe, and prayer for one person isn't prayer for another. It's better to have no prayer that way no one gets any special treatment.

As long as there are examinations, there will be prayer in public schools.

How can you stop someone quietly praying anyway?

This pole will find out how many people agree with prayer in public schools.


If you're going to do a... ahem...pole, You might want to make sure it actually makes sense before you post it.

ANGRY!!! Praying was MANDATORY in my primary school! Forced religion should be BANNED! The tedious hours upon hours of sitting on the damned school hall floor and waiting for break time. Must find headmaster and kill him with a sniper rifle...:sniper:

Tee he hee! Always wanted to use that smiley!

This is one subject on which I must agree with the Biblical answer: school prayer runs contrary to the Revealed Word of God.

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men... But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret..." (Matthew 6: 5-6)

"No prayer in schools should no(t) be allowed"? Hang on... Did you just sucker me in to agreeing with you by using a double negative?

"No prayer in schools should no(t) be allowed"? Hang on... Did you just sucker me in to agreeing with you by using a double negative?

LMAO

This pole will find out how many people agree with prayer in public schools.

Love that spelling.

As long as there are examinations, there will be prayer in public schools.
Awesome :D

Back to the origional post - personal and private prayer is fine. Prayer organised within social groups is fine, and I can't see anything wrong with the school allowing a room somewhere for this. Instituted prayer and prayer led by the school is not fine in a secular state school and if you want that then send your kid to a private religous school.

This pole will find out how many people agree with prayer in public schools.


But, of course. They're within their rights!

Praying in scools should not be allowed...if it is led by school. I mean, everyone has the right to profess a religion that they want, if this in turn does not interfere with anybody's right not to be exposed to religion, I say why not. Like someone already said, at breaks, at lunch or in a special room for that effect, I have no problem with that.

But, when it crosses the line and praying is endorsed by school teachers and /or administrators and is used in school or any other activity related to school, it is unacceptable.

Religion must be personal and not institutionnalised in such places as the government or schools. Unfortunately, some countries like the USA have not understood the concept of separation of State and Religion.

But, of course. They're within their rights!
I believe that prayer is an individuals desire to correspond with their higher deity. Should prayer be allowed? Yes, provided it does not involve mass participation. This would allow for each individual to "pray" as they see fit and not force their beliefs on others.

No prayer in school.

Church is for praying.

School is for more useful endeavors.

There's a difference between prayer that's allowed and prayer that's compulsory. I remember we used to pray at the begining of religious education class, but those kids who didn't take religious education but ethics didn't have to.
I don't really see the point in banning prayer from school, people should be allowed to pray anytime they want. But I feel it has to be non-compulsory...

I agree with the posts of most of the former but it does open up some grey ground.

In my secondary school prayer was school led as per a British state sanctioned religion - church of england. I think that this is the most important question as it begs to how tolerant society is, you can be excluded from assemblies where prayer occurs, but is that not a sign of intolerance. IE other religions are excluded and lets face it churches EXPECT you to follow a benediction or the like.

If you don't beleive me, attend a church you don't have faith with and think how much you feel expected to follow their tradditions, I know I do.

As for private prayer no, but where this develops into said grey area, is how it develops.

Are we talking clubs? mini churches within the school?

Are such things healthy or do they segregate a school community?

I'd be very interested to find out a few answers to that question.

In my school there was a "christian club" that I went to just to see what it was like and I, like when I was in catholic school find it too dogmatic to stomach. At what point does something like that hosted by teachers become none recreational and state funded?

This pole will find out how many people agree with prayer in public schools.
No, this pole will find out:

http://www.rosenblatt-sf.com/Selected_Photos/Utility%20Pole%20(ca.%201975).jpg
Tell us, oh wise one.

*worships*

If prayer were a part of public school I would either stop going or make a complate pain in the ass of myself.

Public schools are basically run by the government, and thus to include religion in schools as such would be a direct violation of the bill of rights (amendment 1) and the general idea of the seperation of chuch and state. I live in Kansas, and I know how backwards it looks right now, don't blur this important line.

Unless it's a private/religious education institutuion, prayer has zero place in a public school, as it violates the rights of us who don't wish to be exposed to that tripe, and prayer for one person isn't prayer for another. It's better to have no prayer that way no one gets any special treatment.

Its funny. People make this arguement for religious material but when religous people complain about their religion being insulted/offended the non religious people will often argue "Then ignore it". Why cant non religious people do the same to religion if it offends them so badly.

How can you stop someone quietly praying anyway?
You Cant.This is just another way to take away our rights ,our childrens rights.At least they think they can.Its bad enuff kids cant wear what they want ,cant have the hair they want;But if someone thinks they are gonna take the right to PRAY away from my child ,they are sadly mistaken.:headbang:

I remember in my old school they got told off by Ofsted for not having a daily act of collective worship, aka Praying.

Now I think this is stupid, as I am neither a believer or an atheist, but there are many, many people in England now who are not Christian. Now it's gone a bit over the top with political correctness, but that's another topic. Yeah, so no.

I remember in my old school they got told off by Ofsted for not having a daily act of collective worship, aka Praying.

Now I think this is stupid, as I am neither a believer or an atheist, but there are many, many people in England now who are not Christian. Now it's gone a bit over the top with political correctness, but that's another topic. Yeah, so no.


How in the name of Hotdogs do you have a day of "collective" worship in a "multicultural" society?

As long as there are examinations, there will be prayer in public schools.

That is of course an argument against examinations and not one for prayer. ;)

Exactarly. Also, consider the size of the school - 1750 pupils.

You Cant.This is just another way to take away our rights ,our childrens rights.At least they think they can.Its bad enuff kids cant wear what they want ,cant have the hair they want;But if someone thinks they are gonna take the right to PRAY away from my child ,they are sadly mistaken.:headbang:
Not to be snarky, but if your post is any indication then I think schools should probably be focusing more energy on EDUCATING children, rather than letting them waste valuable class time with prayer.

How in the name of Hotdogs do you have a day of "collective" worship in a "multicultural" society?
By utterly ignoring all minority religious denominations, as well as all non-religious members of the society.

By utterly ignoring all minority religious denominations, as well as all non-religious members of the society.

In such a case I would strongly reccomend writing to your local MP and paper, if the MP doesn't listen the local papers will make him.

Lord knows even national might take an interest in something like that if you can get a minority spokesperson.

I am personally against state church schools especially as I live in a state (wales) that is oficially secular (in england they can at least excuse religion on the grounds that they have a church of england which everyone in the population is in by default).

but i'm not against what happend in my old high school which was that every so often our deputy head would ask us to think about something in paticular (such as a disastor or war or famine or what ever) so it was kind of a non faith specific prayer (if you include atheism and agnostics as types of faith (kinda the flip side of it really))

now this is coming from a second gen athiest who got out of religious education on the grounds of moral objection (which you can do here)

now this is coming from a second gen athiest who got out of religious education on the grounds of moral objection (which you can do here)


1. You're my Hero.

2. Damn straight, I'm in wales right now, now beyond RE there should be NO mention of religion in schools bare histrorically - AT ALL

I say: let them pray. I don't care if it's taking time away from class.

(The dumber they get, the easier it will be for us to stop them.:p)

We of the Most Holy Empire of the Tronian Republiic believe that some people should stop the ad hominem (sp?) arguments.
We also believe that this is little debate here has sparked multiple issues.
The Loyal Christians did create a rather ambiguous poll by not defining the issues at stake here.
Is it a matter of education? Religious Freedom? Social freedom? Lack of religion? Waste of time?

One cannot ban prayer. Russia and China both learned that the hard way; and it is indeed, as one member of this discussion has already stated, simply an unenforceable way of taking away rights.
Along the same train of thought, one cannot enforce prayer, either. Prayer is a matter of attitude and belief: one cannot pray unless one truly believes his prayer is being heard. No one can force true belief.
We of the Most Holy Empire of the Tronian Republiic believe, therefore, that this is an issue of social freedoms. It distills to the following:
Prayer in schools is "banned" as compared to policies in previous generations, where prayer was mandatory, and lack of it was punished. This is,in fact, injustice. Why force an atheist? Or a Musilm to pray as a Jew, etc? Required prayer is a violation of such freedoms.
There those today who believe that this ruling is an outlawing of all prayer.
No.
The "ban" on prayer in schools is simply a ban on school-sponsored prayer.
Prayer is very much allowed in schools and school situations, so long as the participants are willing, and not acting under the instructions of someone's authority. A football team may pray before a game, if they are of one mind or tradition. An instructor can join in on prayer, if he acts as a peer and not an administrative figure.
From a religious standpoint, prayer is a necessity: all active religion (not atheism, agnosticism, or apathy) requires constant communication with a deity (if there is no deity, then it is a philosophy, not a religion.) From a social standpoint, communal prayer acts as a powerful bonding activity, so long as all parties involved are involved voluntarily.

Summation: One cannot ban prayer, and should allow it, perhaps depending on context, even encourage it. But one cannot force prayer upon another, either.
One cannot accurately vote in this poll because prayer is, in fact, still allowed in school, and cannot be banned.
If it is about school-enforced prayer, then it should not be allowed.

Conclusion: This was a poorly designed poll. Be more specific. You make Christians look bad if you don't think things through.

This pole will find out how many people agree with prayer in public schools.

Your poll is unclear. Are we talking about organized, particularly administratively organized, prayer? I don't see how or why anyone would try to stop children from praying in school so long as they aren't disruptive with it and it is not organized (since organization ostracizes people).

I believe prayer shouldn't be allowed in school. Yet, it is. What pisses me off is that in my former high school, Christians were allowed to create groups left and right, even an evangelical one, but Jews and Muslims were rather underrepresented, and Pagan groups weren't even allowed. If you're going to allow prayer, allow it for all groups.

This pole will find out how many people agree with prayer in public schools.

Depends on exactly what is meant by that.

Personal prayer whenever, so long as it doesn't disrupt class? Absolutely

Group prayer organized by the students, so long as it doesn't disrupt class? Absolutely

A quiet room students can go to for planned prayer (ie. Muslims) or a few moments of prayer in between classes, etc.? Sure, why not?

Teacher-led or administrator-led prayer that students are expected to be a part of? Absolutely not.

Unless it's a private/religious education institutuion, prayer has zero place in a public school, as it violates the rights of us who don't wish to be exposed to that tripe, and prayer for one person isn't prayer for another. It's better to have no prayer that way no one gets any special treatment.

Fuck that. You can't tell me when to and not to pray. I'll pray around you if I damn well please.

As long as there are examinations, there will be prayer in public schools.

Nice :)


How can you stop someone quietly praying anyway?

You can't, as long as people stand up for their rights


Awesome :D

Back to the origional post - personal and private prayer is fine. Prayer organised within social groups is fine, and I can't see anything wrong with the school allowing a room somewhere for this. Instituted prayer and prayer led by the school is not fine in a secular state school and if you want that then send your kid to a private religous school.

This is pretty much my feelings on the issue.


No prayer in school.

Church is for praying.

School is for more useful endeavors.

Life is for praying.

And personally, I didn't find most of my schooling all that useful.

Not to be snarky, but if your post is any indication then I think schools should probably be focusing more energy on EDUCATING children, rather than letting them waste valuable class time with prayer.

I thought their post was spot on. You can't not let someone pray. As long as they don't do it loudly to disrupt class.

Prayer has no place in school for the same reason a Gameboy has no place in school. School is for education, not religious expression. Now, if someone wants to pray quietly before a test, or in the bathroom, or before making that free throw, fine, but time shouldn't be set aside and it shouldn't be recognized in any official capacity.

The problem with the question, as it is posed, is that it is intellectually dishonest. When you hear about prayer in school, you think about classrooms of children being forced to recite "Our Fathers" before the day begins. Naturally, most people recoil from the concept. Then victim fetish Christians show up and talk about persecution insisting that what they really meant was quiet personal prayers, and bible study clubs, and maybe a prayer over the loudspeaker before the football game...

See, when you start to put religion into school, you have problems. On the one hand you have weak willed students feeling pressured to fit in and participate. On the other side you have little miscreants like me who insist that if Easter is to be included in the "spring holliday assembly" then the school needs to order some condoms quick because Beltane needs to be included, too. Religion in schools is an open invitation for strife in a place that has no need for it.

I firmly believe religion and school should be entirely seperate, and prayer shouldn't be allowed. In my former high school, Christian groups were allowed to form and perform prayer groups/small sermons, as well as an evangelical group, but Jews and Muslims were severely underrepresented and Pagan groups weren't even allowed to form. It's precisely this selective permitting of religious groups that makes me feel that religion has no place in school--It's too easy to use to discriminate against others, it would seem.

If prayer were a part of public school I would either stop going or make a complate pain in the ass of myself.


Insist on holding a black mass in honor of Walpurgisnacht to celebrate the birth of the First Church of Satan. Make sure to let them know that you'll cover the costs of the naked woman/alter. Be sure to complain loudly when they say no, try to negotiate. Trust me, its High-larious!

No! What the hell is wrong with you!? God's busy! Quit bothering him!
Busy doing what? The output doesnt seem very high.

You Cant.This is just another way to take away our rights ,our childrens rights.At least they think they can.Its bad enuff kids cant wear what they want ,cant have the hair they want;But if someone thinks they are gonna take the right to PRAY away from my child ,they are sadly mistaken.:headbang:
So they have forced children into not having individualism and you want them all to pray to the same deity now? Its not taking away the right its allowing freedom of expression however small.

Kid praying by themselves, not bothering anybody- fine.

A school led/sponsored prayer- bad.

How in the name of Hotdogs do you have a day of "collective" worship in a "multicultural" society?

Somebody might have already responded to this as Jolt won't let me see the third page.

While schools are meant to have an 'act of collective worship' at my junior school this was simply a normal daily assembly with the occasional hymn. I could be wrong but I don't remember any praying.

At my secondary school we had two assemblies a week but they were completely secular, Ofsted asked the college why assemblies didn't take place everyday and were told that there wasn't time. They complained but nothing was done about it.

As an old country, England has accumulated quite a few laws which are either completely ignored or only applied in moderation.