NationStates Jolt Archive

For those of you not in Australia, I'll provide a summary of the Nguyen case.

A 25 year old Australian man was caught in Singapore with heroin. He was tried, convicted and is set to hang on Friday.

Many Australians believe that the Australian Government should do something to save his life. Many Australians also believe that we should not interfere in the laws of another country.

Now, without (hopefully) getting bogged down into a debate about drugs, or about the death penalty, what do you guys think? Should Australia intervene in the judicial process of another country? Should we be appealing for clemency?

Personally, I think we should stay out of it. It is Singapore's right to do as they wish, whether or not I or Australia agrees personally with the punishment meted out.

Don't they have those huge "Drugs = Death" flashing red-lettered signs in Singapore when you leave the airplane, like they do in the Philippines? The guy was probably warned..

Like the Home Office Ad's here in the UK state:

"You break another countries laws, we can visit you, get you decent representation, pass messages to friends and family, but we can't get you out."

If the guy was taking Heroin into singapore he knew the risks.

At least we can hope that the advert that'll send to most AUS citizens who would consider doing something like that, well, would make them reconsider.

It seems to me that when a citizen from country A is arrested in country B for a crime with serious repercussions, there are a few different paths that can be taken.

If the criminal act in question is also a crime in the citizen's home country but the punishment is different in the two countries. Then country A's government should insist that either the man be extradited or be tried, locally, for the maximum penalty allowable under country A's laws.

If, however, the crime commited by the citizen is not illegal in country A, then we enter a whole new can of worms, should the government of country A use economic and political pressures to rescue a man whom they see accused unfairly? In other words, is one man's life worth the relationship between two nations?

Discuss.

PS There have been many instances where people were arrested abroad for crimes which were not legally reprehensible in their own country, homosexuality being chief on the list.

*snip*

Your viewpoint entirely ignores the sovereignity of the nation which has detained the person and assumes that the laws of the citizen's nation supercedes that of the nation he is visiting.

As in the case of Singapore, the penalties for drug possession is not only clear, but also communicated at various levels to all arrivals prior to their entry. Attempting to argue that the laws of the citizen's homeland should supercede the laws of the country he/she visits in the face of this is clearly, a blatant disregard for the rules of area.

Furthermore, your example is flawed because the cause of arrest is not the tendency towards homosexuality, but rather I believe, the act of it.

Singapore and Malaysia are Asia's biggest user of the death penalty per capita. I was born in Malaysia BTW.

It's a difficult case. First of the Australian government should make sure that the trial proceded fairly. Because no one should be punished for something he didn't do.
Besides that there isn't much they could do but apeal to the good will of Singapore. From a human rights point of view they could object to the death penalty. Or they could offer to have Nguyen sit out a life sentence in Australia instead. (Some countries have treaties arranging these kinds of things)

Singapore and Malaysia are Asia's biggest user of the death penalty per capita. I was born in Malaysia BTW.

More than Delaware? I don't believe it...

For those of you not in Australia, I'll provide a summary of the Nguyen case.

A 25 year old Australian man was caught in Singapore with heroin. He was tried, convicted and is set to hang on Friday.

Many Australians believe that the Australian Government should do something to save his life. Many Australians also believe that we should not interfere in the laws of another country.

Now, without (hopefully) getting bogged down into a debate about drugs, or about the death penalty, what do you guys think? Should Australia intervene in the judicial process of another country? Should we be appealing for clemency?

Personally, I think we should stay out of it. It is Singapore's right to do as they wish, whether or not I or Australia agrees personally with the punishment meted out.

Holy fucking shit. They hang you for drugs in Singapore? IMO that sounds a bit harsh... But thats not we're talking about is it? If it were an American citizen I would fully support our government doing something to save him, but when he is extradited back to the United States we should have him tried for possesion of Heroin under our laws since he would be an American citizen.

In short, I think the Austrailians should do something to get him back since he is a citizen.

More than Delaware? I don't believe it...

I did say Asia. :p
Didn't want to mention the USA or China :D

I did say Asia. :p
Didn't want to mention the USA or China :D

I thought China was in Asia ;)

If it were an American citizen I would fully support our government doing something to save him, but when he is extradited back to the United States we should have him tried for possesion of Heroin under our laws since he would be an American citizen.

He would need to have committed a crime in the US for such a trial to happen.

Holy fucking shit. They hang you for drugs in Singapore? IMO that sounds a bit harsh... But thats not we're talking about is it? If it were an American citizen I would fully support our government doing something to save him, but when he is extradited back to the United States we should have him tried for possesion of Heroin under our laws since he would be an American citizen.

In short, I think the Austrailians should do something to get him back since he is a citizen.
if a man blatently chooses to disregard a country's law, than they are subject to the punishment that comes from its violation. I, personally, dont know how crippling herion is on their population and, therefore, do not know how justified they are in hanging that man. but it is the country's law

if a man blatently chooses to disregard a country's law, than they are subject to the punishment that comes from its violation. I, personally, dont know how crippling herion is on their population and, therefore, do not know how justified they are in hanging that man. but it is the country's law

Indeed. If someone from Singapore violated Australian law, one would expect the person to be tried, and if convicted, punished in Australia.

It's not a secret that they hang drug smugglers in Singapore.

One cannot assume that all manner of punishment is accorded to you on the basis of your nationality.

Take Gary Glitter, for example. Vietnam just caught him having sex with a 12 year old girl, and then trying to get into Thailand for more. The penalty for that crime in Vietnam is death by firing squad. If he's convicted, they're going to shoot him. He shouldn't be surprised, either.

Don't they have those huge "Drugs = Death" flashing red-lettered signs in Singapore when you leave the airplane, like they do in the Philippines? The guy was probably warned..

It's really not that simple.

NOBODY wants to be the courier. There is an extreme chance of you getting caught in any nation; even those with comparatively lenient punishments. Even less people are willing to risk the death penalty for it - which is no secret at the moment, what with all the other Australians being caught in the act lately.

More often than not, it's a case of "do it, or your family will get a visit." The people behind the drug smuggling ring don't care at all about the middle man...

The Bali 9 in Indonesia must be hoping for some public sympathy but in their case, all 9 might be shot unless someone in authority is in the Xmas mood.

For those of you not in Australia, I'll provide a summary of the Nguyen case.

A 25 year old Australian man was caught in Singapore with heroin. He was tried, convicted and is set to hang on Friday.

Many Australians believe that the Australian Government should do something to save his life. Many Australians also believe that we should not interfere in the laws of another country.

Now, without (hopefully) getting bogged down into a debate about drugs, or about the death penalty, what do you guys think? Should Australia intervene in the judicial process of another country? Should we be appealing for clemency?

Personally, I think we should stay out of it. It is Singapore's right to do as they wish, whether or not I or Australia agrees personally with the punishment meted out.
No one made him go to Singapore and carry Heroin with him. Signapore is a soverign State. Australia might want to start an advisory ad campaign about traveling to foreign countries and what can happen to you there, but other than that, I think our Aussie friends should allow the Singaporean law to take its course.

No one made him go to Singapore and carry Heroin with him. Signapore is a soverign State. Australia might want to start an advisory ad campaign about traveling to foreign countries and what can happen to you there, but other than that, I think our Aussie friends should allow the Singaporean law to take its course.

Check my previous post. In all likelihood, he was threatened into it.

Check my previous post. In all likelihood, he was threatened into it.

Pish posh. He knew what he was after: profit.

In all likelihood, he was threatened into it.He should have gone to the authorities then, instead of being caught by them.
Although I suppose that's easy to say if you're not in the situation. One has to wonder though how he came to be picked to be a courier if he wasn't part of the criminal world in the first place.

If you go to another country with the explicit intent of breaking a law in that country that you knew about and knew the penalties I can see no good arguement for your home country bailing you out of it. The only possible reason for clemency is if he could offer information on the people who asked/forced him to smuggle in return for a lighter sentence.

One soverign nation has NO business intefering in the justice system of another nation, even in the event of one of their citizens committing a crime while abroard. In fact if they were to try to coherce the other country to let the person go it shold rightly be taken as an insult to the country that the crime was committed in. Not only has a person come into their country to commit a crime, but the persons home country tries to circumvent the soverign nations justice system on behalf of a convicted criminal.

The only (rather weak) exceptions would be convictions for crimes that are not crimes in the persons home country and it was not obvious that the crime was a crime in the country they were visiting - in which case an appeal might be made, but generally such crimes are of the much more minor type.

Say I go to Texas and murder someone, does anyone think my government should bail me out?
Say I go to China and kill someone, should i get a free trip home away from the death sentence and into a much more comfortable cell?

Pish posh. He knew what he was after: profit.
Sorry, I don't buy that. Maybe if it was an isolated incident, but this sort of thing is happening far too often. Nobody would seriously willingly do that when nine others are currently facing the death penalty, another woman is spending 20 years in an Indonesian prison and it's plastered all over the media.

If he did it for profit, he was certainly incredibly stupid...but it keeps happening. Tell me, why is him being forced into it such an unlikely occurence from your point of view?

He should have gone to the authorities then, instead of being caught by them.
Although I suppose that's easy to say if you're not in the situation. One has to wonder though how he came to be picked to be a courier if he wasn't part of the criminal world in the first place.

Probably a case of "tell the cops and we'll do something worse".

And you're probably right - he might have had a few friends in a gang, or maybe was involved something like that himself. He might have made a few bad choices and ended up being stuck with that. And now he will die for it.

When you choose to visit a country you must accept its laws "iggnorance is no excuse".

I'm personally happy for malaysia to have whatever laws they like as long as they don't interfere in what anyone else does. Issue of Human rights seems an odd one since American governement seem to approve tourture (In that little bit of Cube) and the death penalty.

It's very sad what's happening to him. To be hanged (an especially barbaric form of execution, if any can be said to be "less barbaric") for making one mistake is unjust, in my opinion. I believe I heard in one of the news reports back when his plight first became widely known that he was smuggling the drugs to pay off his brother's debt, and that his brother was under some kind of threat. I don't have a specific source for that, so I can't confirm it.

Yes, he broke another country's laws, and yes he likely knew what the penalty might be if he was caught. Still, I think our government should be doing more to help one it's citizens than "Don't mean to be a bother, Singapore, ol' buddy, ol' pal, but do you think you could not murder one of our citizens, if it's not too much trouble?" But our government is spineless, and I suppose it was too much to expect them to grow a backbone, even to save a life.

It would be wrong to interfere with the laws of a sovereign nation, even to defend one of your citizens. And that bit about his being coerced into it, that seems much more unlikely than his doing it simply for profit. Coercing someone to carry a cargo worth a whole lot of money fro you just seems like a bad idea.

Coercing someone to carry a cargo worth a whole lot of money fro you just seems like a bad idea.

Seems an even more stupid idea to give it to them when their only incentive is profit and they could run off with several hundred thousand dollars worth of drugs. I imagine they'd be much easier to manage if there was some threat of physical harm to their family.

Issue of Human rights seems an odd one since American governement seems to approve torture (In that little bit of Cube) and the death penalty.That's only odd if you agree with the US position on those two issues. I don't agree on either; and even many, if not most, Americans don't agree with it.

It would be wrong to interfere with the laws of a sovereign nation, even to defend one of your citizens. And that bit about his being coerced into it, that seems much more unlikely than his doing it simply for profit. Coercing someone to carry a cargo worth a whole lot of money fro you just seems like a bad idea.

Well, I'm not talking about sending in a special forces team to break him out or anything (as cool as that would be), but making a few pathetic, mewling noises with the vague idea of asking them politely not to kill him just isn't good enough, IMO. But, again, our government is incapable of standing up for itself or its citizens when it comes to foreign relations.

I honestly think coercion is more likely than greed in this case. I'm not sure anyone is capable of that kind of stupidity without a massive helping of desperation too.

The dude had what's comming too him. He know the laws. He broke them. Citizenship doesn't matter.

It's very sad what's happening to him. To be hanged (an especially barbaric form of execution, if any can be said to be "less barbaric") for making one mistake is unjust, in my opinion. I believe I heard in one of the news reports back when his plight first became widely known that he was smuggling the drugs to pay off his brother's debt, and that his brother was under some kind of threat. I don't have a specific source for that, so I can't confirm it.

Yes, he broke another country's laws, and yes he likely knew what the penalty might be if he was caught. Still, I think our government should be doing more to help one it's citizens than "Don't mean to be a bother, Singapore, ol' buddy, ol' pal, but do you think you could not murder one of our citizens, if it's not too much trouble?" But our government is spineless, and I suppose it was too much to expect them to grow a backbone, even to save a life.

:rolleyes: Yes, the goverments just done absolutely nothing to help out this poor boy. Never mind the fact he was smuggling drugs to raise money to pay off his brothers legal fees, that he'd incurred from facing trials in Australia for. oh my gosh wouldn't you know it, drug smuggling. I have sympathy for his parents but quite frankly there are for more deserving people who need a break in life than this guy. Plently of people rot in jails or die for things far lesser than drug smuggling. Hell plenty starve to death, I'd rather see the government help out those in poverty rather than this guy.

I don't know what kind of advice the Australian government provides it's citizens as concerns international travel, but my government has the following to say:

"CRIMINAL PENALTIES: While in a foreign country, a U.S. citizen is subject to that country's laws and regulations, which sometimes differ significantly from those in the United States and may not afford the protections available to the individual under U.S. law. Penalties for breaking the law can be more severe in Singapore than for similar offenses in the United States, and persons violating Singapore laws, even unknowingly, may be expelled, arrested or imprisoned.

"There are strict penalties for possession and use of drugs as well as for trafficking in illegal drugs. Singapore has a mandatory death penalty for many narcotics offenses. Convicted offenders can expect long jail sentences and heavy fines.

"Visitors should be aware of Singapore's strict laws and penalties for a variety of actions that might not be illegal or might be considered minor offenses in the United States. These include jaywalking, littering, and spitting. Singapore has a mandatory caning sentence for vandalism offenses and caning may also be imposed for immigration violations and other offenses. Commercial disputes that may be handled as civil suits in the United States can escalate to criminal cases in Singapore, and result in heavy fines and prison sentences. There are no jury trials in Singapore, judges hear cases and decide sentencing. The Government of Singapore does not provide legal assistance except in capital cases; legal assistance may be available in some other cases through the Law Society."
-- U.S. Department of State, Consular Information Sheet, Singapore ( http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1017.html )

Given that this information is easily obtained, and that any reasonable individual researches such issues before traveling, I'm not inclined to sympathize with any Americans who might get caught committing such crimes. Neither am I inclined to sympathize even if the individual in question was being coerced. I've never been in such a situation, but I would think that the proper response to criminal coercion does not include giving in to such threats. At any rate, the last two sentences of the quote above guarantee that I will never visit Singapore myself.

:rolleyes: Yes, the goverments just done absolutely nothing to help out this poor boy. Never mind the fact he was smuggling drugs to raise money to pay off his brothers legal fees, that he'd incurred from facing trials in Australia for. oh my gosh wouldn't you know it, drug smuggling. I have sympathy for his parents but quite frankly there are for more deserving people who need a break in life than this guy. Plently of people rot in jails or die for things far lesser than drug smuggling. Hell plenty starve to death, I'd rather see the government help out those in poverty rather than this guy.

The government has made a few noises about kinda wanting them to not hang him if that's not too much bother, O Great Singapore, and that's about it. They should have done more. Hopefully Singapore will suffer economically in some fashion for doing this to show that there are consequences for continuing their death penalty nonsense as they are trying to show that there are consequences for smuggling drugs in their country. Probably won't happen, of course, which is disappointing.

You're right that there are people who deserve a break more than this guy, but just because your arm is cut a bit worse than your leg doesn't mean you shouldn't bandage your leg too.

Like the Home Office Ad's here in the UK state:

"You break another countries laws, we can visit you, get you decent representation, pass messages to friends and family, but we can't get you out."

If the guy was taking Heroin into singapore he knew the risks.

At least we can hope that the advert that'll send to most AUS citizens who would consider doing something like that, well, would make them reconsider.

One of the major points was he was exporting from Singapore to Australia.
So many believe he should be extradited.
Also it is a mandantory death sentence, not a judged sentence
Plus Australia is not very tough on drugs, likely get 5-10 years, maybe less with circumstances. (Paying off debts for brother)

I don't know what kind of advice the Australian government provides it's citizens as concerns international travel, but my government has the following to say:

"CRIMINAL PENALTIES: While in a foreign country, a U.S. citizen is subject to that country's laws and regulations, which sometimes differ significantly from those in the United States and may not afford the protections available to the individual under U.S. law. Penalties for breaking the law can be more severe in Singapore than for similar offenses in the United States, and persons violating Singapore laws, even unknowingly, may be expelled, arrested or imprisoned.

"There are strict penalties for possession and use of drugs as well as for trafficking in illegal drugs. Singapore has a mandatory death penalty for many narcotics offenses. Convicted offenders can expect long jail sentences and heavy fines.

"Visitors should be aware of Singapore's strict laws and penalties for a variety of actions that might not be illegal or might be considered minor offenses in the United States. These include jaywalking, littering, and spitting. Singapore has a mandatory caning sentence for vandalism offenses and caning may also be imposed for immigration violations and other offenses. Commercial disputes that may be handled as civil suits in the United States can escalate to criminal cases in Singapore, and result in heavy fines and prison sentences. There are no jury trials in Singapore, judges hear cases and decide sentencing. The Government of Singapore does not provide legal assistance except in capital cases; legal assistance may be available in some other cases through the Law Society."
-- U.S. Department of State, Consular Information Sheet, Singapore ( http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1017.html )

Given that this information is easily obtained, and that any reasonable individual researches such issues before traveling, I'm not inclined to sympathize with any Americans who might get caught committing such crimes. Neither am I inclined to sympathize even if the individual in question was being coerced. I've never been in such a situation, but I would think that the proper response to criminal coercion does not include giving in to such threats. At any rate, the last two sentences of the quote above guarantee that I will never visit Singapore myself.

Australia does provide advice but Australian are usually 'She'll be right mate'.
Havn't you seen how many Australians on drug crimes are in Indonesia, We got about ten of the stupid bastards

Even Fraser siad it was expecting a miracle
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,17413438%255E1702,00.html

I tend to agree that my country shouldn't interfere. As far as I am concerned he knew the risks from what I understand, and did it anyway. Although, in general I don't agree with hanging as a punishment.

If we demand that Singapore not execute Nguyen, because Australia does not believe in the death penalty, does that mean that Singapore can demand that we execute one of their citizens for a crime committed in Australia that carries the death penalty in Singapore? After all, it's tit for tat...

Now, without (hopefully) getting bogged down into a debate about drugs, or about the death penalty, what do you guys think? Should Australia intervene in the judicial process of another country? Should we be appealing for clemency?

Personally, I think we should stay out of it. It is Singapore's right to do as they wish, whether or not I or Australia agrees personally with the punishment meted out.

Agreed. There is NO reason whatsoever we that the government should intervene. Especially not after so many others have already been arrested for drug smuggling in Asian countries and imprisoned/sentenced to death. They were plastered all over the news and if this moron went and carried drugs over there, then it’s entirely his problem and now he has to face the consequences.

One of the major points was he was exporting from Singapore to Australia.
So many believe he should be extradited.


And allow Singapore to be used as a transit point for drug traffickers? Will it be something like "Excuse me, but I'm not going to sell the drugs here but somewhere else so why don't you just let me go, eh?" Thing is, he was caught in Singapore and should therefore face the charges he has to face.

With all the media attention this is getting in both countries, this has changed from a humanatarian issue to a challenge by Australia on Singapore's sovereignty. Talk of trade sanctions and boycotts by Aussie union leaders aren't going to make Singapore back down from their decision. It'll just strengthen her resolve.

Singapore cannot be allowed to be seen to soften their stance on drugs and back down publicly because it will set a bad precedent. Drug cartels are probably going to just use more Aussie traffickers because apparently it's the only country willing to go through so much trouble to save a convicted trafficker. Perhaps if this thing hadn't turned into such a media circus, diplomacy would have worked better.

Well, I'm not talking about sending in a special forces team to break him out or anything (as cool as that would be), but making a few pathetic, mewling noises with the vague idea of asking them politely not to kill him just isn't good enough, IMO. But, again, our government is incapable of standing up for itself or its citizens when it comes to foreign relations.

I honestly think coercion is more likely than greed in this case. I'm not sure anyone is capable of that kind of stupidity without a massive helping of desperation too.

I believe Indonesia threatened war with Singapore in a similar case many years ago. Singapore gave them the finger and hanged the perp. I see no reason why their attitude should change.

"Its my country damnit! I saw what goes here, not you"

That in a nutshell, is the meat of sovereignity no?

I'm strongly opposed to the death penalty, so I believe our government should do whatever it can through legal & diplomatic channels to have the sentence commuted. I don't think we should impose trade sactions, because that has no actual relevance or relationship to the case.

He was found guilty of drug trafficking & I believe he should do his time. I don't think he should die for it. Who are we to take a life? Preservation of human life is a fundamental basis of our societies.

I do wonder what our government's response would be if an Australian was facing the death penalty in some other country for something that, in Australia, wouldn't be a crime at all. For example, homosexuality/adultery/renouncing former faith in Islam in countries where sharia law applies.

This current government: they wouldn't do anything, except prattle on about how sad they were that it was happening.

That said, Nguyen was forwarned... it isn't a secret Singapore does this.

I do wonder what our government's response would be if an Australian was facing the death penalty in some other country for something that, in Australia, wouldn't be a crime at all. For example, homosexuality/adultery/renouncing former faith in Islam in countries where sharia law applies.

This current government: they wouldn't do anything, except prattle on about how sad they were that it was happening.

That said, Nguyen was forwarned... it isn't a secret Singapore does this.

I kind of wonder what would happen if the charge was something like serial rape or murder and the verdict was death.