NationStates Jolt Archive

It's official, folks:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/11/28/noconfidencevote051128.html

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MPs topple Liberal government, trigger election

Last Updated Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:32:56 EST
CBC News

The opposition parties banded together Monday to defeat the Liberal minority government and set the stage for an election that is expected to culminate in a mid-January vote.

In a 171 to 133 vote, the House passed a historic no-confidence motion exactly one year and five months after Canadian voters elected the Liberals.

Prime Minister Paul Martin will now have to go see Governor General Michaëlle Jean Tuesday morning and ask her to dissolve Parliament.

As the vote was conducted, parliamentarians stood up to applaud MPs who will not be running in the next election.

The Liberal defeat marks the first time a government has fallen on a straight motion of no-confidence in Parliament.

Other minority governments have been forced into elections after losing budget votes or censure motions interpreted as loss of confidence.

Last week, Opposition leader Stephen Harper officially tabled the motion of no-confidence which read: "That this House has lost confidence in the government."

The Liberals have 133 seats, followed by the Conservatives with 98, the Bloc Québécois with 53 and the NDP with 18. There are four seats held by Independents and two are vacant.

According to a poll conducted by Environics Research for the CBC, 35 per cent of decided voters said they would vote Liberal. The Conservatives came in at 30 per cent and the NDP was picked by 20 per cent.

With a margin of error of plus or minus 2.5 per cent, 19 times out of 20, the poll puts the Liberals and Conservatives at a virtual dead heat.

Federal elections have to be held on a Monday and the campaigns have to be at least 36 days long. Martin is expected to call for a slightly longer campaign, setting the vote for mid-January, either the 16th or the 23rd, with an agreement among the parties to take a holiday break and stop campaigning between Dec. 23 and Jan. 3.

An eight-week campaign would be the longest the country has seen in two decades.

The last time a government fell at the hands of the opposition was Joe Clark's Conservative government in 1979.

Monday's vote means a number of bills will die on the order paper, among them an act to decriminalize small amounts of marijuana and an animal cruelty bill.
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Well, then! See you on the hustings!

Let the indicting begin!

Damnit!

Why couldn't they have got the pot bill to go through before shutting the government down?

Damnit!

Why couldn't they have got the pot bill to go through before shutting the government down?
Oh, it would've died a lingering death on the Floor of the House anyway. On a fundamental level, Paul Martin doesn't have the balls to follow through, and never did. Try again next decade.

Oh, it would've died a lingering death on the Floor of the House anyway. On a fundamental level, Paul Martin doesn't have the balls to follow through, and never did. Try again next decade.
:(

but pot is better for you than alcohol... :(

:(

but pot is better for you than alcohol... :(
This was a Legacy Bill dating back to Chretien. Chretien knew when it was long-since past time to change some minor parts of the Criminal Code to more accurately reflect the now rather decided popular opinion that marijuana is a perfectly acceptable part of everyday Canadian life.

Martin knows when something is going to land his keester in hot water (in this case with Mr. Bush in Washington) and he's not about to boil his own buns anytime soon.

He's a crafty one, like all good Liberal leaders are. Look how riled up certain posters on NS are, blaming the toppling of this government on everything but their own party, their own leader. Does anyone really think Paul Martin is anything other than elated by this outcome?

He precipitated this dissolution by abandoning the agreement made with the party holding his own in power - the NDP. I'm not at all surprised to see the long knives out for friend and neighbour who dare vote their mind; it had to happen sooner or later.

See, I've got a long memory, too. And there are certain things I'll choose to hold against my Liberal overlords, but I won't go making a shrill display of those things. I'll just choose to act upon them, vote how I desire for the first time in fifteen years, and let the cards fall where they may.

Horrors! I might vote for a Green! An NDPer! A Marxist-Leninist! An Independent! Zounds! Such blinkered infamy! It ought not to be allowed!

Paul Martin is no babe in the woods, people. He's just as odious as what's on offer at the Tory buffet, but there's more out there than those two.

Don't let anyone push you or your vote around.

Now I can start the countdown to January 24th; the first day of the new Conservative Majority Government.

In my Dreams.....

I will discover on the 23rd that Canadians still believe liberal fear based propaganda against the Conservatives.

Now I can start the countdown to January 24th; the first day of the new Conservative Majority Government.

In my Dreams.....

I will discover on the 23rd that Canadians still believe liberal fear based propaganda against the Conservatives.

Just remind them that a vote for the Liberals is a vote for warcriminals.

Just remind them that a vote for the Liberals is a vote for warcriminals.

Because they supported operations in Kosovo and the Balkans? C'mon, there was ethnic cleansing going on. How about reminding that were part of the reason Rwanda happened? Or about how they striked the killing blow against funding for the military(which has been going on since the 60s, maybe late 50s)?

The only way the liberals will lose is if they get George Bush to be their leader, or Dick Cheney.

If anyone is too blame for the continued Liberal minority it is the Bloc, whom I don't think should be a federal party anyways.

Was actually designed to promote more enforcement, not less.

By making pot use simply a finable offense, rather than something requiring court and possibly leading to jail time, it's something that police are much more likely to enforce, while at the same time allowing the government to not only tax marijuana, but to claim it still isn't strictly legal. Nothing like having the cake and eating it too.

Because they supported operations in Kosovo and the Balkans? C'mon, there was ethnic cleansing going on. How about reminding that were part of the reason Rwanda happened? Or about how they striked the killing blow against funding for the military(which has been going on since the 60s, maybe late 50s)?

The only way the liberals will lose is if they get George Bush to be their leader, or Dick Cheney.

If anyone is too blame for the continued Liberal minority it is the Bloc, whom I don't think should be a federal party anyways.

Actually, a serious question: How much have people been effected by the Gomery Commision? I mean, is it possible that what was revealed could be enough to drive people who have in the past voted liberal to keep the conservatives out, to vote for the NDP, or, alternatively, keep a lot of liberal voters home?

Or was it all just a tempest in a teapot for the average voter?

Actually, a serious question: How much have people been effected by the Gomery Commision? I mean, is it possible that what was revealed could be enough to drive people who have in the past voted liberal to keep the conservatives out, to vote for the NDP, or, alternatively, keep a lot of liberal voters home?

Or was it all just a tempest in a teapot for the average voter?

The Gomery Commision in it's self probably isn't too important but when added to the other scandals? Then it becomes important. If Canadians vote liberals in it is just sending a message that politicians can get away with murder time and time again.

I will discover on the 23rd that Canadians still believe liberal fear based propaganda against the Conservatives.
Even though they say they won't touch abortion laws in this country, I don't really trust them to not fuck things up. I mean, look at how the provincial conservatives fucked things up here and I think Harper said that Harris did a good job...? I don't want the rest of the country to have to deal with that sort of shit.

Plus the whole bit where he went to the states to badmouth Canada. That was pretty low.

An eight-week campaign would be the longest the country has seen in two decades. Eight weeks is a long campaign for you guys in Canada? Man, in America our presidential elections take a around a solid year to do between the primiaries and the actual elections. Then I have to pick a congressman and a senator (well only 2/3 of the time) every two years. Not mention the fact that most local elections take place in the years when the state and national elections are NOT being held. It always seems like an election is coming up soon in America expect for a brief period of time in late November and December. Then the whole thing starts over again in January.

Darn lucky Canadians.

Now I can start the countdown to January 24th; the first day of the new Conservative Majority Government.

In my Dreams.....

I will discover on the 23rd that Canadians still believe liberal fear based propaganda against the Conservatives.

It's not propoganda... (Okay, maybe it is a little)
I mean, have you HEARD the things Harper says? It's not just the Liberals saying he's scary... he IS scary!
And his platform is total garbage. To do away with corruption and scandal in politics? Isn't that what politics is about? Please, Mr. Harper... you're not fooling anyone. A politician is a politician. "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" is your way of life.

Frankly, the Conservatives would be a good choice in this next election but I don't think they can successfully maintain the economy. They'll help build defence spending and probably do a lot of good for settling those people in Alberta who are also talking about Seperation.
The Liberals, though, can handle the economy. Sponsorship scandal or not.

If the conservatives got a more moderate leader then they'd stand a shot at getting elected.

Oh, and if they could get their really extreme members to shut up at key moments... that would probably help things a bit too.

Frankly, the Conservatives would be a good choice in this next election but I don't think they can successfully maintain the economy. They'll help build defence spending and probably do a lot of good for settling those people in Alberta who are also talking about Seperation.
The Liberals, though, can handle the economy. Sponsorship scandal or not.

Economy is a big thing to worry about. The way Harper talks about pouring money into the military makes me think of Dubya. Seriously. As far as I'm concerned, paying off the debts of this country is more important than having all the latest and greatest military gadgets, and going to war. And, yeah, Harper has supported the idea of joining Bush in his wars.
Harper might settle down Alberta, but I doubt he'd be as good with keeping Quebec in Canada as the Liberals have been... of course, there's the sponsorship scandal stain on that reputation now, but the polls suggest that the Liberals are bouncing back from that.
Even so... I'm not voting Liberal. (Although I would really LIKE to, because of the jerks kicking them out for a winter election)
NDP. I don't want them to win, but I would like to keep Canada going in a socially progressive direction, rather than regressive, as it surely would be under Harper.

I find Canadian politics terribly depressing. Even aside from the fact that every major party leader is either a slimeball or a nutcase, I simply don't agree with the issue stances of the Liberals, Conservatives, or NDP. Sadly, the only party I even remotely sympathize with is the Bloc Quebecois.

Frankly, the Conservatives would be a good choice in this next election but I don't think they can successfully maintain the economy. They'll help build defence spending and probably do a lot of good for settling those people in Alberta who are also talking about Seperation.
The Liberals, though, can handle the economy. Sponsorship scandal or not.

Alberta is talking about separation?!

*cries with joy*

Maybe I'll get to see Canada destroyed in my lifetime after all. I've been wanting the western provinces to wake up and realize that the east is exploiting them for years.

The Gomery Commision in it's self probably isn't too important but when added to the other scandals?
The Liberals were basically exonerated by the Gomery Report.

What other scandals do you refer to?

If Canadians vote liberals in it is just sending a message that politicians can get away with murder time and time again.
If Canadians vote Liberal, then they are voting for a stronger dollar, a low unemployment rate, a huge infusion of cash into health care, low inflation, low interest rates, strong economy, and 8 straight years of budget surplus, and paying down the National debt.

Not too shabby.

Alberta is talking about separation?!

*cries with joy*

Maybe I'll get to see Canada destroyed in my lifetime after all. I've been wanting the western provinces to wake up and realize that the east is exploiting them for years.
What would Alberta gain through separation?

I find Canadian politics terribly depressing. Even aside from the fact that every major party leader is either a slimeball or a nutcase, I simply don't agree with the issue stances of the Liberals, Conservatives, or NDP. Sadly, the only party I even remotely sympathize with is the Bloc Quebecois.
Meh, I'm guessing that either the conservatives will settle down into something more moderate making them contenders for running the country again or the NDP will pick up some support and become contenders for running the country so things will be more interesting.
I'm thinking with things how they are, the liberals will be up for a while. It's fine by me, I don't mind them, they've done some good things, but it would be nice to know that they actually have to compete to gain our votes...

Alberta is talking about separation?!

*cries with joy*

Maybe I'll get to see Canada destroyed in my lifetime after all. I've been wanting the western provinces to wake up and realize that the east is exploiting them for years.
The only western province that gives in more money than it gets is Alberta. All the others get money from the federal government... I fail to see how the west is being exploited.
Furthermore, I fail to see how the east is exploiting them when Ontario is the other province taking a loss as far as getting money from the federal government goes. And last I checked, Ontario is in the east.

What would Alberta gain through separation?
Why should the western provinces should stay part of Canada when they pay the highest per capita taxes and get virtually ignored by the federal government in return? It is, simply put, economically preposterous for BC and Alberta in particular to still be part of Canada.

God, I feel like I've snuck in on something very personal, like a sex party I have no business attending. It really is true: We Americans know nothing about Canada!
I thought this might be interesting in a voyeuristic way, but I don't have a single fucking clue as to what you guys and girls are talking about.
Sorry about the inconvenience.

*closes door quietly*

The only western province that gives in more money than it gets is Alberta. All the others get money from the federal government... I fail to see how the west is being exploited.
Furthermore, I fail to see how the east is exploiting them when Ontario is the other province taking a loss as far as getting money from the federal government goes. And last I checked, Ontario is in the east.
On the other hand, Ontario also gets a say in who runs the country. The national elections aren't already decided by the time Ontario gets to vote in its timezone. Ontario is getting the government it is voting for; no province west of it can say the same. The west doesn't have the same political interests or culture as the east that rules it.

Why should the western provinces should stay part of Canada when they pay the highest per capita taxes and get virtually ignored by the federal government in return? It is, simply put, economically preposterous for BC and Alberta in particular to still be part of Canada.
Quebec pays the most taxes.
BC gets money from the federal government.
And if Alberta gets to leave because the federal government is taking money from it, then why shouldn't Ontario use the same argument?
It's stupid, we're one country, for better or worse, we look after the other provinces when they're struggling and the other provinces look after us when we are. That's how it works. It's like a big family. Sure, not always perfectly happy, what with one brother thretening to leave on occasion and other siblings feeling ignored, but the point is that if we work together, we can make things great, while if we just bicker and split up then we'll all be fucked.

On the other hand, Ontario also gets a say in who runs the country. The national elections aren't already decided by the time Ontario gets to vote in its timezone. Ontario is getting the government it is voting for; no province west of it can say the same. The west doesn't have the same political interests or culture as the east that rules it.
Ok, well how do you propose splitting up the voting other than by population? Should a vote in Alberta count for 20 votes in Ontario?
1/4th of our country's population lives between Windsor and Quebec. If you want Alberta to have more influence, encourage immigration into Alberta, have more kids, generally increase the population of the area, then you can have more say because you have more people to speak up.

Quebec pays the most taxes.
BC gets money from the federal government.
And if Alberta gets to leave because the federal government is taking money from it, then why shouldn't Ontario use the same argument?
It's stupid, we're one country, for better or worse, we look after the other provinces when they're struggling and the other provinces look after us when we are. That's how it works. It's like a big family. Sure, not always perfectly happy, what with one brother thretening to leave on occasion and other siblings feeling ignored, but the point is that if we work together, we can make things great, while if we just bicker and split up then we'll all be fucked.

*applauds*
I vote Dakini as my official voice, as I go to sleep. :) Well said.

Quebec pays the most taxes.
BC gets money from the federal government.
And if Alberta gets to leave because the federal government is taking money from it, then why shouldn't Ontario use the same argument?
It's stupid, we're one country, for better or worse, we look after the other provinces when they're struggling and the other provinces look after us when we are. That's how it works. It's like a big family. Sure, not always perfectly happy, what with one brother thretening to leave on occasion and other siblings feeling ignored, but the point is that if we work together, we can make things great, while if we just bicker and split up then we'll all be fucked.
Quebec doesn't pay the most per capita taxes, and that's the number that matters, IMO. Regardless, I support Quebec separation, so I don't see where this point is going.

As for BC, hell, I honestly think it could do better economically than it is now, but as I already pointed out, the argument is not only economic, but also cultural. I say this as someone who has lived in the west and the east (currently living in Ontario, studying in Quebec).

I just explained why Ontario doesn't have to leave Canada; it *is* Canada. It has a huge impact on Canadian politics. Part of the reason the west gets so screwed is that the federal government doesn't give a damn about what Alberta thinks.

I don't think Canada can make things great by sticking together. When has Canada ever been great, anyway? Honestly, this sounds like a bunch of nonsense national pride with no rationale behind it. I don't want to stick together. I think some provinces would be better off in both the short and long run, economically, culturally, and politically, if Canada no longer existed in its current form.

Ok, well how do you propose splitting up the voting other than by population? Should a vote in Alberta count for 20 votes in Ontario?
1/4th of our country's population lives between Windsor and Quebec. If you want Alberta to have more influence, encourage immigration into Alberta, have more kids, generally increase the population of the area, then you can have more say because you have more people to speak up.
I don't propose it at all. I'm proposing separation. Though I would note that the American system solved this problem (to an extent) by having representatives by population and senators by state (2 each).

:(

but pot is better for you than alcohol... :(

Pot is far worse for your lungs than tobacco & you are just as likely to crash a motor vehicle when you are stoned as when you are drunk.

<blithely missing the point>

Ok, well how do you propose splitting up the voting other than by population? Should a vote in Alberta count for 20 votes in Ontario?
1/4th of our country's population lives between Windsor and Quebec. If you want Alberta to have more influence, encourage immigration into Alberta, have more kids, generally increase the population of the area, then you can have more say because you have more people to speak up.
Actually, 37.5% of Canada's population lives in Ontario, hence 1/3 of the Federal seats.

I don't propose it at all. I'm proposing separation. Though I would note that the American system solved this problem (to an extent) by having representatives by population and senators by state (2 each).
Canada does have representation by population for the House of Commons but not the Senate.

Although it should be obvious from the other Canadian political threads that I do have a party preference, all I ask is that all Canadians of voting age do the right thing and get out there and VOTE this year. I don't want to see no wimpy 60% voter turnout (and don't even talk to me about some lower number).

I don't care who you vote for (though of course I wish you'd choose one for their policies and platform and not because you like the party colours). Write your own name down if you're that bitter and cynical. Just remember - with the new campaign financing rules, any party that gets at least 4% of the popular vote gets funding for future campaigns. There is no time like now to help build your party of choice, even if that party is not destined to earn any seats in this election.

And hell, if the almost 40% of eligible Canadians who didn't vote last year had actually dragged their butts down to the polls in June 2004, they might have changed the political face of the last year and a half. We might have had a majority of government of either LPC or CPC stripe. We could even have elected some Greens, or maybe a minority NDP gov't! 40% of eligible voters is a big damn chunk. Everyone's vote DOES matter - and if you just sit on your butt at home instead of voting, you just made someone else's voice louder at the expense of your own.

GET OUT AND VOTE!

The Liberals were basically exonerated by the Gomery Report.

What other scandals do you refer to?


If Canadians vote Liberal, then they are voting for a stronger dollar, a low unemployment rate, a huge infusion of cash into health care, low inflation, low interest rates, strong economy, and 8 straight years of budget surplus, and paying down the National debt.

Not too shabby.

Have no fear my good friend. Did you watch the depressed Jack Layton after the vote? I think he got his bluff called, at least that's what the pundits were saying. And The Bloc will be the Bloc. Harper, what a sorry excuse for a speech, I keep going "like what" every time he said Canada needed a change. *LOL* And then the beautiful, uplifting Martin speech reminded me again why they are the only choice.

Yes, let the Canadians decide, because the Liberals are leading in all polls and I doubt that is going to change, while granted it may only be another minority government for them, just remember that Pearson only governed for two minority government's and look at the foot-print he left on Canada for always.

Perhaps after this election, the official assholes, umm I mean opposition won't be so quick to bring down the government again, or face personal ruin.

Harper doesn't win this one he's out. And Layton in all his depressed stand tonight will probably go the way of the old and used and not so bright politician after the next Liberal win.

So fear not my friend. The Liberals are already proving to be the only choice.

Let the people vote the way they want. Paul Martin has a record to run on like no PM before him. What exactly does Harper want to change? Our increase in the dollar? Our lower inflation? Our low interest rates? Maybe he'd like to fix the fact that we have less unemployment now than we have had in 30 years! Come on Harper, we're ready for you and those back-stabbing flip-flopping NDP.

There is no doubt that Alberta would be better off economically if we seperated from Canada. We would have lower taxes. A better Economy and a Conservative Government. We have no debt and a huge surplus. Plus, we are by far the best province why not be the best country.

Eight weeks is a long campaign for you guys in Canada? Man, in America our presidential elections take a around a solid year to do between the primiaries and the actual elections.
Eight weeks seems insufferably long to me! The typical campaign in the UK is about 4 weeks, but we usually know an election is looming quite a while before that (although we don't know the date until the PM decides), so we have months of pre-election "posturing".

...and those back-stabbing flip-flopping NDP.
What I find incredible, Steph, is that you - an erudite and well-informed politico, are allowing yourself to be so drawn along party lines that you seem to be turning quite an exceptional blind eye to the fact that Paul Martin planned it this way. That he has rather definitively cast himself in the role of the aggrieved martyr while personally authoring his own government's downfall seems to make not one whit of a difference to you, as a professed Liberal supporter.

Well, I'm getting bored with your provocative posturing. I've got a long memory too, Steph; The national debt you're so concerned about your children's children paying off was instigated by the late great Liberal PM Pierre Elliot Trudeau (and compounded by the scoundrel Brian Mulroney).

Kindly get off the fuckin' high horse before you get a nosebleed already.

GET OUT AND VOTE!
And don't vote against anyone - vote for someone instead.

And don't vote against anyone - vote for someone instead.

Yes, that would be nice too. :) Baby steps.

Although it should be obvious from the other Canadian political threads that I do have a party preference, all I ask is that all Canadians of voting age do the right thing and get out there and VOTE this year. I don't want to see no wimpy 60% voter turnout (and don't even talk to me about some lower number).

I don't care who you vote for (though of course I wish you'd choose one for their policies and platform and not because you like the party colours). Write your own name down if you're that bitter and cynical. Just remember - with the new campaign financing rules, any party that gets at least 4% of the popular vote gets funding for future campaigns. There is no time like now to help build your party of choice, even if that party is not destined to earn any seats in this election.

And hell, if the almost 40% of eligible Canadians who didn't vote last year had actually dragged their butts down to the polls in June 2004, they might have changed the political face of the last year and a half. We might have had a majority of government of either LPC or CPC stripe. We could even have elected some Greens, or maybe a minority NDP gov't! 40% of eligible voters is a big damn chunk. Everyone's vote DOES matter - and if you just sit on your butt at home instead of voting, you just made someone else's voice louder at the expense of your own.

GET OUT AND VOTE!
I think part of the problem with the low voter turnout is that the voter's list needs cleaned up. There are a lot of dead people who are still on that list, a lot of duplicates, a lot of people who have left the country et c. Hell, there's one tax place that automatically checks the box so many landed immigrants end up on the list but don't vote because they know they legally shouldn't.

Quebec doesn't pay the most per capita taxes, and that's the number that matters, IMO.
Taxes are based on income. If Alberta is paying the most per capita, then that's because Alberta would have the highest per capita income.
Quebecers pay the biggest percentage of their income (between federal and provincial) of any province.

I just explained why Ontario doesn't have to leave Canada; it *is* Canada. It has a huge impact on Canadian politics. Part of the reason the west gets so screwed is that the federal government doesn't give a damn about what Alberta thinks.
And like I said, if you want Alberta to have more of a say, encourage immigration into Alberta. I'm sure some of the immigrants flooding into the greater Toronto area wouldn't mind settling down in Calgary.

I don't think Canada can make things great by sticking together. When has Canada ever been great, anyway? Honestly, this sounds like a bunch of nonsense national pride with no rationale behind it. I don't want to stick together. I think some provinces would be better off in both the short and long run, economically, culturally, and politically, if Canada no longer existed in its current form.
I really fail to see how things could improve by splitting up the country.

There is no doubt that Alberta would be better off economically if we seperated from Canada. We would have lower taxes. A better Economy and a Conservative Government. We have no debt and a huge surplus. Plus, we are by far the best province why not be the best country.
I know some former Calgarians who would disagree with your assessment of Alberta as being "by far the best province"...

Although I do wish an astronomical society around here would manage to get municipal governments to listen and enact some dark sky bylaws. That sounds nice.

I think part of the problem with the low voter turnout is that the voter's list needs cleaned up. There are a lot of dead people who are still on that list, a lot of duplicates, a lot of people who have left the country et c. Hell, there's one tax place that automatically checks the box so many landed immigrants end up on the list but don't vote because they know they legally shouldn't.

<grin> Fair enough. I don't actually expect corpses to rise up to mark their X. :D

<grin> Fair enough. I don't actually expect corpses to rise up to mark their X. :DFlip-flopper!

Flip-flopper!

Ooooo! Bu-u-u-r-r-r-n! :D