NationStates Jolt Archive

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113268572534704333-kl_gh5uVNgDPNPepwznr7DnkfW8_20051204.html?mod=blogs

A quick summary (just using this as a topic article for general disscussion rather then a specific point)

Do you think that schools have the right to punish students for the content of their NON-school published blog

Do you think that schools have the right to censor student blogs (non school owned blogs)

(looking at the discussion type I dont think Ill make a poll at this time)

Not really, unless they find plans to commit suicide or shoot people, in which case the school, naturally, has the right to interfere.

Last month, the Roman Catholic Diocese of Paterson, N.J., banned the students at its 58 elementary schools and five high schools from maintaining personal Web pages on sites like MySpace and Xanga, a blogging service. Marianna Thompson, director of communications for the diocese, said the goal of the ban is to protect students from online predators, as well as to prevent students from harassing or bullying each other. "An unsupervised blog is an inappropriate use of their time," she said

So, I'm guessing that means they're not allowed to use school facilities to start or maintain a blog, although I'm probably wrong.

Because I could see them being banned within schools for being an "inappropriate use of ... time" but I don't think anything gives the school the right to dictate what a kid can or can't do at home. If the blog is threatening towards the school of staff or other pupils, surely they should take action through the police?

Let's see... public school, therefore government-supported. Therefore covered by the First Amendment protection of free speech.

The school interefered with the student's right to free speech. Claims that this cause a disruption in school activities are irrelevant, because the alleged offense took place off of school grounds.

The school is in the wrong. Court sentences the principal to be drawn and quartered.

:p

All I can say is that I am happy that there is nobody who can punish me for what I write in my blog.

I understand completely if the girl got in trouble for harassing someone at school, I would understand if she was using school computers and such to blog and they found the text objectionable (because it could be said it was "school sponsered" by some random whiny parent)

but what she writes at home, on her own computer, is not really I think any of the school's business, unless she is breaking the law (threatening someone) or has posted something that they are mandatory reporters about (like she is getting abused, or she wants to hurt herself)

All I can say is that I am happy that there is nobody who can punish me for what I write in my blog.

I understand completely if the girl got in trouble for harassing someone at school, I would understand if she was using school computers and such to blog and they found the text objectionable (because it could be said it was "school sponsered" by some random whiny parent)

but what she writes at home, on her own computer, is not really I think any of the school's business, unless she is breaking the law (threatening someone) or has posted something that they are mandatory reporters about (like she is getting abused, or she wants to hurt herself)
I happen to agree as long as school resources were not used in the creation of or mantinance of the blog the scool should have no part of it.
If something crosses the line legaly then law enforcement should be notified, not school sanctioned punishment

I happen to agree as long as school resources were not used in the creation of or mantinance of the blog the scool should have no part of it.
If something crosses the line legaly then law enforcement should be notified, not school sanctioned punishment
exactly.

I worry now that maybe someone might read my blog and sue me:eek: Probably not though, because I didn't say anything that bad, I just rant, although I had to knock it back from full public viewing because I said something about how Katie Couric annoys me one day and these weird Katie Couric fans started leaving less than desireable comments about it. :(

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113268572534704333-kl_gh5uVNgDPNPepwznr7DnkfW8_20051204.html?mod=blogs

A quick summary (just using this as a topic article for general disscussion rather then a specific point)

Do you think that schools have the right to punish students for the content of their NON-school published blog

Do you think that schools have the right to censor student blogs (non school owned blogs)

(looking at the discussion type I dont think Ill make a poll at this time)
Well in this case, the girl was in effect continuing the bullying of a classmate over the internet. Therefore the schools actions i this case are little different than if they yelled at her for bullying someone outside of school - no big deal.

In this case however,Others have taken a more aggressive approach. Last month, the Roman Catholic Diocese of Paterson, N.J., banned the students at its 58 elementary schools and five high schools from maintaining personal Web pages on sites like MySpace and Xanga, a blogging service. Marianna Thompson, director of communications for the diocese, said the goal of the ban is to protect students from online predators, as well as to prevent students from harassing or bullying each other. "An unsupervised blog is an inappropriate use of their time," she said.they are way off - outside of school? Not continuing the bullying of anyone from school? None of their goddamn business.

Well in this case, the girl was in effect continuing the bullying of a classmate over the internet. Therefore the schools actions i this case are little different than if they yelled at her for bullying someone outside of school - no big deal.

what is your definition of bullying? If I don't like someone am I being a bully? If I write down on a peice of paper that I think they are a jerk, am I being a bully?

why should it matter what she wrote on her blog? If she isn't threatening him, or physically holding him down and making him read it why does it matter?

Everyone has to learn at some point that

a not everyone likes you
and
b some people are idiots

I think the kid probably knows both of these things are true about this girl, and should probably steer clear of her when he doesn't have to deal with her (like don't read her blog:rolleyes: )

If you don't post on a blog using your real name, and you don't mention your own identity, how are they going to know whose blog it is?

In this case however,they are way off - outside of school? Not continuing the bullying of anyone from school? None of their goddamn business.

I should point out that a private school (which is the case here) has a bit more legal leeway in attempting to control the activities of its students, even outside of school. If the kids or parents don't like it, they can always withdraw and go to a public school instead.

what is your definition of bullying? If I don't like someone am I being a bully? If I write down on a peice of paper that I think they are a jerk, am I being a bully?

why should it matter what she wrote on her blog? If she isn't threatening him, or physically holding him down and making him read it why does it matter?

Everyone has to learn at some point that

a not everyone likes you
and
b some people are idiots

I think the kid probably knows both of these things are true about this girl, and should probably steer clear of her when he doesn't have to deal with her (like don't read her blog:rolleyes: )Yeah that's one way of looking at it. I meant to equate the blog post to something like spreading rumors outside the school gates or something - taken as part of a bigger campaign this could be seen as bullying. All depends how the 'victim' sees it i guess. There can be indirect bullying, yeah? Although a month suspension for teasing seems a bit steep.

I should point out that a private school (which is the case here) has a bit more legal leeway in attempting to control the activities of its students, even outside of school. If the kids or parents don't like it, they can always withdraw and go to a public school instead.
Well I didn't know that; but it still isn't right.

I should point out that a private school (which is the case here) has a bit more legal leeway in attempting to control the activities of its students, even outside of school. If the kids or parents don't like it, they can always withdraw and go to a public school instead.
Hopfully market forces take care of such contemptable behavior on the schools part

Hmm, a difficult issue…

On one hand, a school should not look after student every minute of the day. When you’re not at school, you’re not your schools responsibility anymore.

On the other hand, if you use a blog to harass other students, then it becomes the responsibility of the school to deal with it, in the same way as it would deal with it had it happened at school.
Also, if the blog-owner criticises the school and its teachers / staff, then it very much becomes a matter that the school should deal with. Saying “teacher x is a bad teacher” is one thing, saying “teacher x is should be shot, killed, and dipped in acid” is quite another…

But still, having said that, I must admit that I wonder why the parents didn’t take contact to the parents of the blog-owner asking for an explanation and an apology. That, IMHO, would be the best solution.

All of this begs the question: how much freedom of speech should you have? Here in Denmark we have a small Nazi-party, and there’s a long ongoing discussion regarding whether or not they should be allowed to express themselves in the media. For example, they have a small privately funded radio station, and every now and then someone will try to shut it down via a lawsuit. So far they’ve been allowed to continue broadcasting in the name of free speech…

However, we do have limits. Not too long ago, a similar station was shot down because the owner encouraged the extermination of jews. “Freedom of speech, but with responsibility” I believe the phrase was. That is, you have the freedom to speak your mind, as long as you’re not encouraging something illegal.

And that’s what makes this case so difficult. Bullying and harassing other students is not illegal. But it sure is unpleasant to be on the receiving end of.
So yes, I personally believe that the school should interfere in this, as it should in other harassment-case…

Ok, from what I can see, it sounds like a typical teenager being crass more than anything else. It doesn't seem like she's bullying someone so much as she's saying of a friend, "ew, you got stuck with that loser?".

Ms. Iacovacci said the boy she wrote about is a friend, and that she made the comments as a joke. "I think it was unfair," she said of the suspension over her online post.

THis is a hideous attack against the first ammendment. Just because a person goes to school automatically takes away all their rights? BS

The school has no jurisdiction.

Yeah that's one way of looking at it. I meant to equate the blog post to something like spreading rumors outside the school gates or something - taken as part of a bigger campaign this could be seen as bullying.
things that happen outside of school are none of the schools business unless the law is being broken ect. but then it isn't really the school's business as much as the police's business.



All depends how the 'victim' sees it i guess.
'vicitms' are hardly objective, making the rule to where "it's how so and so feels it should be viewed, is dangerous. I know that because sometimes I get all cranky and hormonal, and I feel like the world is out to get me, if my husband says something and I take it wrong is that his fault? no, it's mine. (not exactly the same, but if you feel like someone is out to get you, seemingly innocent things turn bad superfast)




There can be indirect bullying, yeah?
sure, and if it happens on school property, then the school should deal with it, if it happens elsewhere the kid should report it to the police if he thinks his 'bully' is breaking the law, if they aren't then you just gotta chalk it up to "some people are idiots" and get on with your life.

sure, and if it happens on school property, then the school should deal with it, if it happens elsewhere the kid should report it to the police if he thinks his 'bully' is breaking the law, if they aren't then you just gotta chalk it up to "some people are idiots" and get on with your life
Well, yeah, but if it starts on school property an carries on off site, then the school still gets involved - or thats how it works round here anyway.

I should point out that a private school (which is the case here) has a bit more legal leeway in attempting to control the activities of its students, even outside of school. If the kids or parents don't like it, they can always withdraw and go to a public school instead.
Yes, they can withdraw and go to a public school, which is most of the time a worse environment to learn. B

ut this still does not mean that the school can control the students outside activities. Thats like saying:

If you shop at Sears they can command you not to go to McDonalds.

Yes, they can withdraw and go to a public school, which is most of the time a worse environment to learn. B

ut this still does not mean that the school can control the students outside activities. Thats like saying:

If you shop at Sears they can command you not to go to McDonalds.
Well technicaly they can command all shopers of sears must not go to McDonalds
But they would go out of busniess fast

Hopefully the same happens to thoes private schools that do such

Well, yeah, but if it starts on school property an carries on off site, then the school still gets involved - or thats how it works round here anyway.
the question isn't if it works that way, so much as should it work that way.

the question isn't if it works that way, so much as should it work that way.
Very true.

I remember from school: If you were going to get in a fight, what you would do is "touch base" at your house then go to the fight in order to keep the school out of it, because the school considers the trip to and from school part of their jurisdiction.

I remember from school: If you were going to get in a fight, what you would do is "touch base" at your house then go to the fight in order to keep the school out of it, because the school considers the trip to and from school part of their jurisdiction.
hey, yeah I remember that. It was like if you got in a fight on the way home then you could get in trouble, but if you got into a fight in your front yard, then they couldn't do anything because you weren't "thier responsibility anymore"

The school had the right to intervene becuase the blog was by a current student, about current students and involved activities ocuring at school. In a country like the US it might be possible to invoke the First Amendment but in more considerate nations it should be obvious that it is necessary that the school become involved.

The school had the right to intervene becuase the blog was by a current student, about current students and involved activities ocuring at school. In a country like the US it might be possible to invoke the First Amendment but in more considerate nations it should be obvious that it is necessary that the school become involved.
so if I say something about someone at work (like Charlie doesn't do his job, and he is lazy) at say the Mc donalds then my place of employment should intervene?

I don't think that it's any of the "school's business" things that happen off school property.

so if I say something about someone at work (like Charlie doesn't do his job, and he is lazy) at say the Mc donalds then my place of employment should intervene?

I don't think that it's any of the "school's business" things that happen off school property.
I would say no
While I can see them ensuring your ride to and from school after that it is none of their busniess unless it crosses the legal line ... in that case again law enforcement is the one that should be contacted at that point

The school had the right to intervene becuase the blog was by a current student, about current students and involved activities ocuring at school. In a country like the US it might be possible to invoke the First Amendment but in more considerate nations it should be obvious that it is necessary that the school become involved.
Now is it "necissary" ?

This is just yet another sad case of schools severely underestimating students' ability to deal with stuff. People slag each other off all the time to their faces but does anyone bother with that? No, because the slag-ee just slags right back at the slag-er, so all is fair and well.

Yet as soon as something like this happens its completely different. Seriously, I managed to get through twelve years of state education with minimal interference from teachers, and I managed fine - sure I got insulted, maybe even bullied (not that I realy saw it as such) but to be fair I wasn't always the most pleasant individual myself. What's the point of sheltering us from everything bad in the world? All that will achieve is kids going into said world and getting annihilated the first time they come across someone nasty 'coz there'll be no teacher to run to.

This is the reason why you don't dob in even your most hated enemy for doing bad stuff - it's more trouble than just sorting it out yourself, or ignoring it. That and it makes you a pussy lol.

The school had the right to intervene becuase the blog was by a current student, about current students and involved activities ocuring at school. In a country like the US it might be possible to invoke the First Amendment but in more considerate nations it should be obvious that it is necessary that the school become involved.
Would you say the same thing if this had happened in college?

Would you say the same thing if this had happened in college?
I would say the same thing I have :p which is it is none of their busniess

Would you say the same thing if this had happened in college?
Not at my school. My entire program alone would cripple the whole computer system if they even thought of such a thing.

Since when does the school have the right to censor what kids do outside of school? This is not within their jurisdiction. Schools have no place to punish students for anything, no matter how illegal, outside of school. They can put provisions about breaking the law in their charters (so if a kid goes to juvie, they don't have to keep them around) but for putting disparaging remarks about teachers and other students in their blogs? Schools have better ways of spending their time and money. Enforcing bullshit PC codes is a waste of their time. Try spending that time cracking down on cheating or something.

Hmmm... difficult issue. Personally, I agree that schools do not have the right to punish students for what was posted in a blog, off school property, out of school hours, and not using school equipment.

Playing devil's advocate though, I also see why schools may be concerned about what students post in their blogs and the effect it has on other students.

In 2004, an 11-year-old girl took her friend, Satomi Mitarai, into an empty classroom, slit open Satomi's throat, and let her bleed to death in Sasebo, Nagasaki Prefecture, Japan. The reason that the girl stated for killing her friend was that Satomi had posted a remark about the girl's looks on an online diary.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20040603a1.htm

Now while we have not had such an issue in the US, yet, I can see why the school may be concerned about the effects of blogs on students. Not to mention that after Columbine, there has been a strong anti-bulling movement in the schools.

I believe the rule is, and I say this as a student who should know this, is that if what is said affects school , as in the victem no longer wants to go to school, then it is school business. But if it does not or than it is fine. In the oringinal case I belive that the girl was in the right, especially if it did not affect the "Victim"

Well in this case, the girl was in effect continuing the bullying of a classmate over the internet. Therefore the schools actions i this case are little different than if they yelled at her for bullying someone outside of school - no big deal.

In this case however,they are way off - outside of school? Not continuing the bullying of anyone from school? None of their goddamn business.

Think that's bad? There is an Orthodox Jewish community in NJ which has TOLD, not asked, TOLD the parents in their synagogue -- if you do not either give up your internet connection or place your computer under lock and key and ONLY access the 'net for the parents' e-mail, their children will be thrown out of shule.

Hmm, a difficult issue…

On one hand, a school should not look after student every minute of the day. When you’re not at school, you’re not your schools responsibility anymore.

On the other hand, if you use a blog to harass other students, then it becomes the responsibility of the school to deal with it, in the same way as it would deal with it had it happened at school.
Also, if the blog-owner criticises the school and its teachers / staff, then it very much becomes a matter that the school should deal with. Saying “teacher x is a bad teacher” is one thing, saying “teacher x is should be shot, killed, and dipped in acid” is quite another…

But still, having said that, I must admit that I wonder why the parents didn’t take contact to the parents of the blog-owner asking for an explanation and an apology. That, IMHO, would be the best solution.

And that’s what makes this case so difficult. Bullying and harassing other students is not illegal. But it sure is unpleasant to be on the receiving end of.
So yes, I personally believe that the school should interfere in this, as it should in other harassment-case…

I fail to see how a school can possibly decide what students can & cannot do outside school premisses. That's just horribly wrong. And knowing a bit about Denmark, I very much doubt a school there would even attempt such a thing.

However, if it comes to a schools attention that a student is doing something that disrupts that school in particular or students & staff at the school, then they of course should try to intervene. Contacting the parents should usually suffice, and if that fails, most schools can & will kick out students who try to somehow harm or destroy the school or students or staff. Usually such cunduct is criminal & will simply result in the school contacting police, parents & socialworkers. I doubt this is much different in USistan.

All of this begs the question: how much freedom of speech should you have? Here in Denmark we have a small Nazi-party, and there’s a long ongoing discussion regarding whether or not they should be allowed to express themselves in the media. For example, they have a small privately funded radio station, and every now and then someone will try to shut it down via a lawsuit. So far they’ve been allowed to continue broadcasting in the name of free speech…

There's not much debate about that outside leftwing grassroots movements, as far as I know. However, one of the youngest Danish political parties did feel forced to kick out the members from DNSB (the Danish Nazis, who aren't a party by the way, just an organisation & responsible for the majority of nazi-propaganda in Europe). A hollow gesture at best, but they are nevertheless now the (arguably) second most influential party in Denmark, although they actually aren't in government.

I don't think schools should have any right censor kids. If they are blogging at home or anywhere but at school, then the school should not be able to punish the kids for blogging. In my opinion, no matter what they may post, it should have no realevance to their school.

This is why I'm very, very glad that we don't have the bullshit of freedom of speech to deal with. This way, when students out here spread nasty lies and post horrible things about each other on blogs for other students to read and then carry on with at school, we can discipline them.

If a student makes a cruel, or disparaging comment about another student, or a teacher, that student should be punished; whether they do it at school, or at home. Bullying is a serious problem, and can have real consequences. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are two examples of the tragedy of bullying and how it can end promising young lives.

This is why I'm very, very glad that we don't have the bullshit of freedom of speech to deal with. This way, when students out here spread nasty lies and post horrible things about each other on blogs for other students to read and then carry on with at school, we can discipline them.

If a student makes a cruel, or disparaging comment about another student, or a teacher, that student should be punished; whether they do it at school, or at home. Bullying is a serious problem, and can have real consequences. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are two examples of the tragedy of bullying and how it can end promising young lives.
Which should be dealth with if it crosses legal lines

School has no busniess poking its nose into what I do or write on my private time
It is out of school jurisdiction

Let's first establish some basic facts/ideas:

If a Roman Catholic diocese "banned" it, I highly doubt that this was a public school. IIRC, a church has no jurisdiction over a public school. The only thing that the church can do in that case is frown upon it, but they have no legal jurisdiction over a public school. It may be different in NJ. I'm in Nebraska, and at least that's how it works here.

Private schools are entitled to do whatever they want. Sorry, just how it works. Think of it as a business - except the direct customers have little say ;). The kids' parents are the ones consenting to the school to educate their children.

As for this issue in public schools, yes, it does occur. Why? Misuse of school resources is what originally started it. Students would access social network sites (Myspace, Xanga) in a school library or computer center, over the monitored school network. Now, when you're a network tech at one of these schools and see a few thousand MySpace hits, you just have to see what's up, and if it's anything bad, like harassment, threats, and the like, you are legally obligated, as a school official, to send it up the chain of command, to so speak. It's the same deal as when a student reports a case of harassment.

Do I agree? To an extent. I believe it's wrong for kids to threaten other kids and push them around, but I still believe in their free speech rights. I believe that the school has the power to discipline a student for misusing school resources (a computer and a network connection, in this case) by viewing these sites in school, but I don't agree with a school bringing out-of-school activities into it. If the parents really want something done about it, they can go to the authorities (Death threats, harassment threats, etc).

Anyone keeping a blog should be punished anyway.

Damm nerds.:mad:

Anyone keeping a blog should be punished anyway.

Damm nerds.:mad:
I bet almost everyone who responded has a blog.

and I bet you have one too.:eek:

Well , I have to admit I find the blogging phenomenon less than interesting, but I reckon that any type of websapce is someone's own personal property (to an extent, and depending on the host, obviously), and that until people cross the bounds of illegality they are free to say what they want to say without restriction. The school has no right to interfere until something serious is mentioned, not just some petty classroom dispute. I can think of numerous websites that, were their authors in school, would be given this same sort of scrutinisation. Why should school children be an exception?

Would you say the same thing if this had happened in college?

I know for a fact that my college has taken action against students based on the content of blogs, but I think it's only happened in cases where they believed there was a threat of violence involved.

Why should anyone be punished for their personal feelings. Such should only be viewed by those with thick emotional skill. To punish somone on account of their thoughts sends out an almost evil look on the personal mind.

Anyone keeping a blog should be punished anyway.

Damm nerds.:mad:
Geek
Not nerd

Geek
Not nerd
This is a time when any idiot with an opinion has a blog. personaly i couldnt care less about anyone's life or personal views. nor would i expect anyone to care about mine. Life sucks, Get a helment!

This is a time when any idiot with an opinion has a blog. personaly i couldnt care less about anyone's life or personal views. nor would i expect anyone to care about mine. Life sucks, Get a helment!
Why are you on a debate forum if you dont care about personal views?

Why are you on a debate forum if you dont care about personal views?
you missunderstand, i feel they shouldnt be punished. Nor should they by any means feel unique in this. you cannot be punished for your own views.

They lack the right to censor or punish for content of blogs, but if a reliable connection between the student and the blog reveals something like a suicide plan or other planned acts of violence/vandalism, then steps should be taken, it's just what steps that is the sticky bit there.

At first I thought as the concensus did that this was an overextension of school authority. Then I read the article completely and realized why she was truly being punished. Though I post quotes from Hagakure a lot, I feel this one quote sums up the whole affair.

A certain Master Tokuhisa was born quite different from other people and looked to be a bit moronic. Once, a guest was invited and mudfish salad was served. At that time everyone said, "Master Tokuhisa's mudfish salad," and laughed. Later when he was in attendance and a certain person made fun of him by quoting the above remark, Tokuhisa pulled out his sword and cut the man down. This event was investigated and it was stated to Lord Naoshige, "Seppuku is recommended because this was a matter of rashness within the palace."
When Lord Naoshige heard this, he said, ' 'To be made fun of and remain silent is cowardice. There is no reason to overlook this fact because one is within the palace. A man who makes fun of people is himself a fool. It was his own fault for being cut down."
Hagakure

Let's see... public school, therefore government-supported. Therefore covered by the First Amendment protection of free speech.

The school interefered with the student's right to free speech. Claims that this cause a disruption in school activities are irrelevant, because the alleged offense took place off of school grounds.

The school is in the wrong. Court sentences the principal to be drawn and quartered.

:p
except freedom of speech does have limitations, including slander which this may fall under. i dont agree with what happened but you must not use freedom of speech because this does not fall under it

We notified parents of content on some of our students Myspace pages. They were highly inappropriate. Three students were disciplined for having photos of themselves drinking alcoholic beverages. I think the thing to remember here is that these are kids, not adults. Their "rights" are limited whether you like that or not. Parents and schools need to be on the same page where what is and what isn't acceptable behavior. I don't think it's a violation of human rights to watch out for our kids...yes, kids.

They lack the right to censor or punish for content of blogs, but if a reliable connection between the student and the blog reveals something like a suicide plan or other planned acts of violence/vandalism, then steps should be taken, it's just what steps that is the sticky bit there.
Have you never had a deviant or depressed thought. If they talk about killing somone else, watch em. if they dont do anything, you just wasted tax money. if they do, you did the right thing. you cant pick out the ones that will do this. a lot of money would be wasted. that's bad.

While it's within the girl's rights to write whatever she wants, wherever she wants to, it's also the school responsibility to protect the boy's own rights. Of course, your blog is your personal business and none others'... until you start harassing other people. Let's not forget our rights end when someone else's rights start.

Maintaining that this particular case is none of the school's business is parallel to suggesting that a student who's been suspended for bullying younger classmates should not be held responsible by the school if he turns to waiting for them a block away from school grounds, so that he may beat them up for the fun of it.

Schools and colleges, in general, get to intervene whenever anyone directly (and sometimes indirectly) attack, harass or simply tease one of their own, until both students leave the institution, hence all ties to the school dissapearing.

Maintaining that this particular case is none of the school's business is parallel to suggesting that a student who's been suspended for bullying younger classmates should not be held responsible by the school if he turns to waiting for them a block away from school grounds, so that he may beat them up for the fun of it.

Exactly it is NONE of the schools busniess what happens off of school ground (baring transport too or from)
At that point it is not in their jurisdiction, other athorites take over.

Another thought on this ... if schools get to punish students for said behavior they are acting as an athority ...
Does that mean they are liable if they fail to protect students off of school grounds?

Maintaining that this particular case is none of the school's business is parallel to suggesting that a student who's been suspended for bullying younger classmates should not be held responsible by the school if he turns to waiting for them a block away from school grounds, so that he may beat them up for the fun of it.

Exactly it is NONE of the schools busniess what happens off of school ground (baring transport too or from)
At that point it is not in their jurisdiction, other athorites take over.

Another thought on this ... if schools get to punish students for said behavior they are acting as an athority ...
Does that mean they are liable if they fail to protect students off of school grounds?

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113268572534704333-kl_gh5uVNgDPNPepwznr7DnkfW8_20051204.html?mod=blogs

A quick summary (just using this as a topic article for general disscussion rather then a specific point)

Do you think that schools have the right to punish students for the content of their NON-school published blog

Do you think that schools have the right to censor student blogs (non school owned blogs)

(looking at the discussion type I dont think Ill make a poll at this time)

If the blog is NOT ever accessed from school hardware, and there is NO iminent danger to the school/other students from the content (to life or property), then they have no right to act upon it.

If the blog is not owned by the school, then it is private property of the student. Ergo, to deface it or censor it whilst it is in a public forum not sponsered by the school is a violation of a person's right to privacy and creativity.

End of story. If there is no danger to the school/student body, and the school's systems have not been used in anyway, said actions are unlawful.

Bono B Bono Bonoduche']We notified parents of content on some of our students Myspace pages. They were highly inappropriate. Three students were disciplined for having photos of themselves drinking alcoholic beverages. I think the thing to remember here is that these are kids, not adults. Their "rights" are limited whether you like that or not. Parents and schools need to be on the same page where what is and what isn't acceptable behavior. I don't think it's a violation of human rights to watch out for our kids...yes, kids.

You make a good point here. If there is solid evidence of breaking a law on such a blog sight, i.e. photos, video clips, then it is actionable. HOWEVER! The school administration, as long as the infraction happened off school property and time has no right to act upon it OTHER THAN telling off the police. ANYONE who observes it has the right to report. HOWEVER, my next door neighbor doesn't have the right to sentence me to three months in jail (excluding the possiblility that he's the judge). That's what appears to be going on. Anything not on school ground or time is not the jurisdiction of the administration. They DO have the right to report it to the proper authorities though.

Great! So as a teacher, in my blog next year, I can talk about how difficult that kid with Asperger's syndrome makes my teaching. I can say how I really hate having little Tommy in my class, and how he shouldn't really be at school, because he never does any work anyway. I can tell the whole world about how I caught Sarah Smith giving headjobs to the boys' cricket team in the boys' toilets. I can whinge and bitch about the grindingly stupid kids in my classes who should just quit school now and go work as cleaners. As long as its all true? And the school can't fire me or discipline me in anyway whatsoever? And you'll all defend my rights? Because that's what students do on their blogs, and according to many people on here, they should not be punished by the school. They have their rights after all.

Great! So as a teacher, in my blog next year, I can talk about how difficult that kid with Asperger's syndrome makes my teaching. I can say how I really hate having little Tommy in my class, and how he shouldn't really be at school, because he never does any work anyway. I can tell the whole world about how I caught Sarah Smith giving headjobs to the boys' cricket team in the boys' toilets. I can whinge and bitch about the grindingly stupid kids in my classes who should just quit school now and go work as cleaners. As long as its all true? And the school can't fire me or discipline me in anyway whatsoever? And you'll all defend my rights? Because that's what students do on their blogs, and according to many people on here, they should not be punished by the school. They have their rights after all.
Sure, whatever floats your boat. People are not required to read your blog afterall.

So you'll defend my rights when parents and students sue me, and when the school fires me huh? Nice to know. I'll just go and set up a gossip column about my students right now.

Great! So as a teacher, in my blog next year, I can talk about how difficult that kid with Asperger's syndrome makes my teaching. I can say how I really hate having little Tommy in my class, and how he shouldn't really be at school, because he never does any work anyway. I can tell the whole world about how I caught Sarah Smith giving headjobs to the boys' cricket team in the boys' toilets. I can whinge and bitch about the grindingly stupid kids in my classes who should just quit school now and go work as cleaners. As long as its all true? And the school can't fire me or discipline me in anyway whatsoever? And you'll all defend my rights? Because that's what students do on their blogs, and according to many people on here, they should not be punished by the school. They have their rights after all.
Unlike students you are hired staff you have a professional responsability
The students are not and should not be bound to such when it is an invulentary action (they are forced to go to school (private schools are a different situation))
Where as you choose to abide by their responsability rules, and get paid for it, the students are in a forced activity

If you find their professional responsabilities too much you may choose to work elsewhere or in a different field

As long as students are exercising legally protected freedom of expression, they should be legally protected. Libel and incitement to violence are not legal forms of expression and students can be punished for them. The smart thing for the school would be to offer its punishment as an alternative to legal prosecution for the student.

I would be interested to know if students posted naked pictures of themselves, could they be arrested for distributing child pornography?

I think the Internet should be a place of total free speech. However I do go to a private school, and something like this happened—a girl was blackmailing and slandering me, and also stalking three school alumni through Xanga. She was eventually suspended, and the school has removed her access to the Internet in all locations (including home). Now, this IS a private school, but I don't think it should have THAT much say over our out-of-school actions. I mean, I'm glad that she was caught and no longer harasses me, but this girl is, by order of the teachers, in school AND out of school, disallowed to: 1) whisper, in or out of school; 2) say anyone's name when they can't hear it, under ANY circumstance, in or out of school; 3) use the Internet or computer, in or out of school, unless being monitored by a parent or teacher, and doing so for school; 4) use the phone unless for homework strictly, and monitored by a parent or teacher. Now, THAT is a violation of rights in my opinion, no matter HOW private our school is.

I think the Internet should be a place of total free speech. However I do go to a private school, and something like this happened—a girl was blackmailing and slandering me, and also stalking three school alumni through Xanga. She was eventually suspended, and the school has removed her access to the Internet in all locations (including home). Now, this IS a private school, but I don't think it should have THAT much say over our out-of-school actions. I mean, I'm glad that she was caught and no longer harasses me, but this girl is, by order of the teachers, in school AND out of school, disallowed to: 1) whisper, in or out of school; 2) say anyone's name when they can't hear it, under ANY circumstance, in or out of school; 3) use the Internet or computer, in or out of school, unless being monitored by a parent or teacher, and doing so for school; 4) use the phone unless for homework strictly, and monitored by a parent or teacher. Now, THAT is a violation of rights in my opinion, no matter HOW private our school is.
How the hell were they able to manage taking away her home internet access?

Unlike students you are hired staff you have a professional responsability
The students are not and should not be bound to such when it is an invulentary action (they are forced to go to school (private schools are a different situation))
Where as you choose to abide by their responsability rules, and get paid for it, the students are in a forced activity

If you find their professional responsabilities too much you may choose to work elsewhere or in a different field

If students can post disgusting rumours and stories about me on their blogs, without punishment because they have to go to school, why can't I do the same? Why can't a criminal post stories about the prison guards and other prisoners on a blog? They after all I'm sure didn't choose to go to prison.

Yeah I am a hired professional, but like myself (at least in my country) students have a code of behaviour, and a list of responsibilities that they must adhere to. The behaviour that is usually associated with school involvement in blog postings (at least out here) is covered by the code of behaviour. Students agree to adhere to it when they enrol at school (especially when they have passed the stage of compulsory education). By suggesting that schools shouldn't have the power to punish students for behaviour committed outside of school time and off school grounds, you are effectively saying that teachers shouldn't be able to place students who don't do their homework, or complete assessment requirements on detention. We shouldn't be able to suspend students for a host of things, including behaviour committed during school functions off school grounds outside of school hours (i.e. during Saturday sport - we have that for state school students in my state). The school has the right to discipline a student who breaks the code of behaviour they agreed to adhere to when they enrolled at the school. If they don't like it, or the parents don't like it, change schools.

How the hell were they able to manage taking away her home internet access?

It's a very "community-oriented" school...in other words, they bribed her mom—take away Lorraine's Internet access, and you won't have to re-apply for the scholarship at the end of the year. Unless we kick her out firt. They didn't kick her out, though, and so she's back and freakier than before...only [possibly off drugs and] no longer a stalker.

Seriously though. Stick the kid in psychotherapy—don't take away her rights!

If students can post disgusting rumours and stories about me on their blogs, without punishment because they have to go to school, why can't I do the same? Why can't a criminal post stories about the prison guards and other prisoners on a blog? They after all I'm sure didn't choose to go to prison.
Unlike students they have commited actions that do not allow them full participation in society


Yeah I am a hired professional, but like myself (at least in my country) students have a code of behaviour, and a list of responsibilities that they must adhere to. The behaviour that is usually associated with school involvement in blog postings (at least out here) is covered by the code of behaviour. Students agree to adhere to it when they enrol at school (especially when they have passed the stage of compulsory education).
After the point of cumpulsory education the rules change in my opinion ... the studen is then able to activly decide if the benifits of continuing at that institution weigh against the restrictions they might be subject to

By suggesting that schools shouldn't have the power to punish students for behaviour committed outside of school time and off school grounds, you are effectively saying that teachers shouldn't be able to place students who don't do their homework, or complete assessment requirements on detention. We shouldn't be able to suspend students for a host of things, including behaviour committed during school functions off school grounds outside of school hours (i.e. during Saturday sport - we have that for state school students in my state).unlike with controlling their actions outside of school homework is just seting a requirement for productivity, in fact i never did homework outside of school.

As for after school events that I can see, participation in them is agreeing to the school code of conduct. that is deffinatly an area the school should have controll over
The school has the right to discipline a student who breaks the code of behaviour they agreed to adhere to when they enrolled at the school. If they don't like it, or the parents don't like it, change schools.
Agreed for private schools, I just dont feel this should apply to the public school system here

If they or their parents choose a private school they are choosing to abide by their rules and they have an opt out option
I do not feel this should apply to cumpulsitory public school system

It's a very "community-oriented" school...in other words, they bribed her mom—take away Lorraine's Internet access, and you won't have to re-apply for the scholarship at the end of the year. Unless we kick her out firt. They didn't kick her out, though, and so she's back and freakier than before...only [possibly off drugs and] no longer a stalker.

Seriously though. Stick the kid in psychotherapy—don't take away her rights!
Ahh I see ... personaly while i know my kid needs help (and I would seek geting them that attention)

Even if i agreed that the actions the school picked where the nessisary one... i would still tell the school to go blow me just on principal lol

I think the Internet should be a place of total free speech. However I do go to a private school, and something like this happened—a girl was blackmailing and slandering me, and also stalking three school alumni through Xanga. She was eventually suspended, and the school has removed her access to the Internet in all locations (including home). Now, this IS a private school, but I don't think it should have THAT much say over our out-of-school actions. I mean, I'm glad that she was caught and no longer harasses me, but this girl is, by order of the teachers, in school AND out of school, disallowed to: 1) whisper, in or out of school; 2) say anyone's name when they can't hear it, under ANY circumstance, in or out of school; 3) use the Internet or computer, in or out of school, unless being monitored by a parent or teacher, and doing so for school; 4) use the phone unless for homework strictly, and monitored by a parent or teacher. Now, THAT is a violation of rights in my opinion, no matter HOW private our school is.

What about the rights of the students she bullied? IMHO (after suffering similar kinds of slander and bullying) she got exactly what she deserved. And I applaud the parent for actually agreeing to it.

Agreed for private schools, I just dont feel this should apply to the public school system here

And why shouldn't it apply to the public sector? Why do private school teachers have the privilege of not being slandered by their students, whilst public school teachers, who have it a lot tougher in most cases, do not?

And by the way, why can a student sue me because they swung on their chair and broke their arm, or because I told them that they weren't going to get into uni with their current marks, but when they accuse me of being a lesbian whore, a moll, or physically threaten me (none of which has actually happened to me personally, just to a lot of the teachers I know), I have absolutely no recourse?

What about the rights of the students she bullied? IMHO (after suffering similar kinds of slander and bullying) she got exactly what she deserved. And I applaud the parent for actually agreeing to it.



And why shouldn't it apply to the public sector? Why do private school teachers have the privilege of not being slandered by their students, whilst public school teachers, who have it a lot tougher in most cases, do not?

And by the way, why can a student sue me because they swung on their chair and broke their arm, or because I told them that they weren't going to get into uni with their current marks, but when they accuse me of being a lesbian whore, a moll, or physically threaten me (none of which has actually happened to me personally, just to a lot of the teachers I know), I have absolutely no recourse?
1) because it is a public service rather then a private insitution, participation in a private institution here is optional

As such it removes the students and parents right to decide if they want to abide by rules controling their private activities

and
2) because you are an adult and a professional
If they do that in school you have every right object to that sort of behavior
Out side of school they are not bound by school rules just the standards as applied to all minors and citizens

What about the rights of the students she bullied? IMHO (after suffering similar kinds of slander and bullying) she got exactly what she deserved. And I applaud the parent for actually agreeing to it.


Hey, I was the main one she bullied. I'm all for my rights, most surprisingly. :rolleyes: However I don't think she got 'what she deserved'. This girl was seriously disturbed mentally, and after her suspension, she only went to one therapy session before they reinforced the new rules, and she stopped seeing the therapist (her mother's insistence). Being her victim, so to speak, I believe I should have some say in assessing the depth of her mistake—since it was after all mostly on me. She was (and is) bothered. She has been pretty messed up her whole life, partly because of family events, partly because of personality disorders. I know that she did things wrong; I mean, I nearly got expelled for acting on her blackmail before I finally told! But their response was wrong. That is a total violation of her rights as a human being. I mean, this girl was banned from whispering, on or off campus! Even when everyone can hear her! And her mom, by the way, only agreed because they said if the girl wasn't kicked out by the end of the school year, she wouldn't have to re-apply for her scholarship over the summer.

Unfortunately, being special districts as they are, school systems can get away with a whole bunch of BS. They don't need to go by probable cause.

Personally, I don't think the schools should get involved in this at the slightest. But the blogs are public domain, so the matter isn't should...

So you'll defend my rights when parents and students sue me, and when the school fires me huh? Nice to know. I'll just go and set up a gossip column about my students right now.

Yes, I'll defend your rights.