NationStates Jolt Archive

This story from Reuters ought to give the most ardent Iraq war supporter pause. From Reuters (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L26654863.htm):
LONDON, Nov 26 (Reuters) - Abuse of human rights in Iraq is as bad now as it was under Saddam Hussein, if not worse, former prime minister Iyad Allawi said in an interview published on Sunday.

"People are doing the same as (in) Saddam Hussein's time and worse. It is an appropriate comparison," Allawi told British newspaper The Observer.

"People are remembering the days of Saddam," said Allawi, a secular Shi'ite and former Baathist who is standing in elections scheduled for Dec. 15. "These are the precise reasons why we fought Saddam Hussein and now we are seeing the same things.

"We are hearing about secret police, secret bunkers where people are being interrogated," said Allawi in an apparent reference to the discovery of a bunker at the Shi'ite-run Interior Ministry where 170 men were held prisoner, beaten, half-starved and in some cases tortured.

"A lot of Iraqis are being tortured or killed in the course of interrogations."

Allawi said the Interior Ministry, which has tried to brush off the scandal over the bunker, was afflicted by a "disease".

If it is not cured, he said, it "will become contagious and spread to all ministries and structures of Iraq's government".

"The Ministry of the Interior is at the heart of the matter," Allawi said. "I am not blaming the minister himself, but the rank and file are behind the secret dungeons and some of the executions that are taking place."
Now I want to emphasize--as some Bush defenders will no doubt point out--that the article is saying that these are Iraqis doing this to each other, as opposed to US soldiers committing the atrocities. But here's my point--one of the later reasons we were given for going to war--after it became clear we weren't going to find WMD--was that Saddam was a bastard and we needed to get rid of him so the torture would stop.

Well, it looks like we've failed on that note as well. So now is it time to get US troops out of there? Take the poll.

Uh...saying that removing Saddam will immediately resolve all the problems in Iraq is like saying that removing Bush will immediately resolve America's problems in Iraq or like saying that capturing Bin Forgotten would resolve worldwide terrorism.

The fact that Iraqis are treating each other just as bad as Saddam is going to be all the more reason for war supporters to encourage us to stay.

Just my two cents.

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This article shows how quickly Iraq is advancing politically.

In Australia, it took decades for "Former-PM's disease" (with Whitlam and Fraser the most severe cases) to set in, in the US, centuries for "former-President's disease" to start (with that f****** incompetant, criminal, dictator-loving, commie-loving turd Carter being the worst).

Iraq has done it in less than three years!

(with that f****** incompetant, criminal, dictator-loving, commie-loving turd Carter being the worst)

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Methinks thou doth protest too much, still, its good (sort of) that Iraq has gone so far in so short a time. Wanksta Nation's on the ball.

So basically put, the US went in there on a dozen or so allegations and stuck to removing a dictator for brutalizing his people so that it could put in place a new governmental system that could do the same?

Though I opposed the war for hell, a bazillion reasons, and I oppose the way the US handles things in Iraq, I think that the International community should actually GO into Iraq.

Listen, the US fucked up Iraq, but If they leave now, that place will just fall into a civil war, with dangerous complications that could distabalize that area even more. And the thing is, the Iraqui common man and woman aren't to be blamed of that, so the world should at least try to minimize the future grief that are might face.

Offcourse, first the US would have to addmit it fucked up so the world could actually bear itself to get the will to do something, and that is not going to happen, so I foresee a civil war. Iran will win.

Though I opposed the war for hell, a bazillion reasons, and I oppose the way the US handles things in Iraq, I think that the International community should actually GO into Iraq.

Listen, the US fucked up Iraq, but If they leave now, that place will just fall into a civil war, with dangerous complications that could distabalize that area even more. And the thing is, the Iraqui common man and woman aren't to be blamed of that, so the world should at least try to minimize the future grief that are might face.

Offcourse, first the US would have to addmit it fucked up so the world could actually bear itself to get the will to do something, and that is not going to happen, so I foresee a civil war. Iran will win.

I agree, the USA did really screw up Iraq. However, they should help solve the problems they have caused and try to make Iraq more stable. Once Iraqis can live somewhat peacefully other nations should leave so Iraq's new government doesn't have to deal with so many problems caused the the United States.

So basically put, the US went in there on a dozen or so allegations and stuck to removing a dictator for brutalizing his people so that it could put in place a new governmental system that could do the same?
That about sums it up.

I never supported the Iraq war. Are we kinda fucking the job? Yep. Is it not what we expected? Yep. Is the current Iraq gov eeriely similar to the old one? kinda.

But I am a firm believer in the 'you break it, you buy it' policy.

We(the coalition) broke Iraq, then ducktaped together something new. Now we need to stay and ensure that it truly is fixed. If there is a cost in American blood... well then we will pay it. Withdrawing the troops now will only knock out a vital pillar of support for the fledgling Iraqi Republic, and increase the likelihood of more violence, more abuse and a civil war.

Only when the Iraqi government is stable enough to stand on it's own two feet will it be morally allowable to disengage. In the meantime it is our duty to defend the Iraqi people and government, and contribute all we can to their development. And while we're there, maybe we can stop some of this torture within the Iraqi government.

But back to the question - the fact that the new Iraq isn't a picture perfect Liberal Democracy isn't justification to withdraw. We assumed Iraq as our dependent when we said we could do better. We are now shackled with that burden. It is still our duty to bear it like men, rather than back out and backstab the people of Iraq.

Just my two cents.

Nope, I was against the war from the start but once we're here we have to at least try and tie up the loose ends. As Colin Powell told our oblivious president, "You break it, you buy it". We broke it, and now the absolute worst thing to do would be to go running out of the store. It might be better if we required our soldiers to learn some basics about Iraqi culture and try to be less obtrusive, but other than that there's not much that we can do besides pray. Still, it's better than nothing.

If the US remains in Iraq, civil war. If they pull out, civil war.

If they stay, it will be to ensure that the corrupt, right wing sham democracy that emerges from the chaos will be amenable to them so that they can squeeze the last drops of oil out of the place before the whole thing runs out.

If they leave, it will be under the idea that the democracy - which exists in procedural terms only - is now strong enough to fend for itself, although the only way its battalions can stop the out-of-control insurgency is to kill lots and lots and lots of people, some of whom may even be insurgents.

It's beautiful. Bush has so thoroughly destroyed the place that it has nowhere to go but down.

I used to be pro-American.

If the US remains in Iraq, civil war. If they pull out, civil war.

If they stay, it will be to ensure that the corrupt, right wing sham democracy that emerges from the chaos will be amenable to them so that they can squeeze the last drops of oil out of the place before the whole thing runs out.

If they leave, it will be under the idea that the democracy - which exists in procedural terms only - is now strong enough to fend for itself, although the only way its battalions can stop the out-of-control insurgency is to kill lots and lots and lots of people, some of whom may even be insurgents.

It's beautiful. Bush has so thoroughly destroyed the place that it has nowhere to go but down.

I used to be pro-American.
I used to be pro-American too and I AM an American. Now I'm moving out as quickly as I can. Fuck this country and all of this corrupted crap that I see everyday. I'm sick of it.

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Isn't that a leprechaun?

This is mostly 'vengence', especially those foundin the Interior Ministery. Pulling out is worse than staying because this, at least now, is seen negatively. If the insurgents or terrorists take over it will be saddam all over again.

Note I don't support it but it is due to the mistreatment under Saddam that this is happening