NationStates Jolt Archive

Originally Posted by Kievan
I didnt think mormons and witnesses were christians.

Originally Posted by Smunkeeville

they think they are. It is a fishy subject around here anyway, and to discuss it would probably hijack the thred.........so my lips are sealed on the subject unless you want to start a thred about it.

It's something that comes up here quite regularly, so why not.

Anyone who follows the words of Jesus Christ could consider themselves christian, though I think it should only be used to mean people who believe that Jesus was the son of God.

By that criteria, LDS and Witnesses are Christian.

Are Mormons Christian? (http://www.afcministry.com/Are_Mormons_Christians.htm)



Jehovah's witness (http://www.afcministry.com/Jehovahs_Witnesses.htm)



I know that apologetics are often looked to as biased, but I have yet to find someone in the LDS church or in the JW church that can honestly say that this guy is lying about anything.

of course they are christians

they are just heretics because they dont follow the nicean creed that all other christians follow

well having looked at it from the outside i'd really have to lump jewdaism, christianity, islam and possibly sikhs all together due to the fact that you all seem so simular to me really (though sikhs are pushing out as are some of the other groups stemming from christianity and islam)

either that or make such nitpicking groups as to make huge numbers of different groups

so either I clump or seperate its one of those problems like with species

I've looked into the LDS (mormon) religion, and have found the name to be "church of jesus christ of latter day saints". After reading through most of the Book Of Mormon text. I found that it involves many of Christs words. It supported the Bible in christs reign here on the earth. It refered to Christ often. I find them to obviously be christians.

of course they are christians

they are just heretics because they dont follow the nicean creed that all other christians follow
As a Southern Baptist I don't follow any creeds, does that make me a heretic?:eek:

In the general context of the word? No; Today's Christian is someone who follows Paul's interpretation of Christ and only so.

However, in the sense in which one is a follower of Jesus (afterlife being a non-issue) then Yes.

Whichever you think is more important is up to you, but is ultimately telling of your attitude to your Faith.

As a Southern Baptist I don't follow any creeds, does that make me a heretic?:eek:
Heretic! :mp5:

:D

When you posted "today's Christian" did you mean that christianity changes from time to time depending on the people on earth?

i wonder if any are on here

In the general context of the word? No; Today's Christian is someone who follows Paul's interpretation of Christ and only so.

However, in the sense in which one is a follower of Jesus (afterlife being a non-issue) then Yes.

Whichever you think is more important is up to you, but is ultimately telling of your attitude to your Faith.
Not quite. According to Jesus, "By their acts shall you know them." James ( supposedly the brother of Jesus ) clarifies this by saying that you can say you have faith all you want to, but the proof of your faith is the works you do. So, I would have to say, take a look at the way people who call themselves "Christians" live. Do they give to the poor? Do they comfort those in distress? Do they always have a joyful attitude? Do they pray all the time, but not in public "to be seen of men?" Does their "yes" mean "yes," and their "no" mean "no?" Do they refrain from taking other people, especially other Christians, to court?

If the answer to these questions is "yes," then I would have to say that they are a Christian. If the answer to the questions is "no," then I would be skeptical.

i wonder if any are on here
Are you?

i wonder if any are on here
there are at least 4 Mormons and 2 JW's although there are about 6 former Jw's running around on general too.;)

They don't usually post on the weekend though.

Not quite. According to Jesus, "By their acts shall you know them." James ( supposedly the brother of Jesus ) clarifies this by saying that you can say you have faith all you want to, but the proof of your faith is the works you do. So, I would have to say, take a look at the way people who call themselves "Christians" live. Do they give to the poor? Do they comfort those in distress? Do they always have a joyful attitude? Do they pray all the time, but not in public "to be seen of men?" Does their "yes" mean "yes," and their "no" mean "no?" Do they refrain from taking other people, especially other Christians, to court?

If the answer to these questions is "yes," then I would have to say that they are a Christian. If the answer to the questions is "no," then I would be skeptical.

I agree.

As a Southern Baptist I don't follow any creeds, does that make me a heretic?:eek:
well lets see....

do you believe in god the father almighty creator of heaven and earth?

do you believe in jesus christ his only begotten son?

do you believe he was born of the virgin mary suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried?

do you believe he decended into hell?

do you believe he rose from the dead on the 3rd day?

do you believe believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic (but not necessarily roman catholic) church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

most baptists do.

i happen to be lds and we are both christian

I agree.
I'm flattered. :D

well lets see....

do you believe in god the father almighty creator of heaven and earth?

do you believe in jesus christ his only begotten son?

do you believe he was born of the virgin mary suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried?

do you believe he decended into hell?

do you believe he rose from the dead on the 3rd day?

do you believe believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic (but not necessarily roman catholic) church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

most baptists do.

I believe in all that stuff, except what exactly does it mean to believe in the holy catholic church?

Well it looks like we still do post on weekends. haha.

i happen to be lds and we are both christian
why would you say you are a Christian?


Is Jesus the son of God?

Is Jesus God?

Can you be a god?

Was God always god?


What happens when you die?


I have more questions, but I will let you answer these first.



*I am trying to have a civil discussion, please don't think I am trying to insult you or anything, I will work very hard to remain polite, if you will do the same.

Well it looks like we still do post on weekends. haha.
I was speaking of the ones I know about, I don't pretend to know the religious backgrounds of Newbies. Pardon me if I misled.

why would you say you are a Christian?


Is Jesus the son of God?

Is Jesus God?

Can you be a god?

Was God always god?


What happens when you die?


I have more questions, but I will let you answer these first.



*I am trying to have a civil discussion, please don't think I am trying to insult you or anything, I will work very hard to remain polite, if you will do the same.
I am confused at the way you say "god". Would it be the same thing if one were to say "immortal being" and "god-like"?

As a Southern Baptist I don't follow any creeds, does that make me a heretic?:eek:

You most certainly do. It's called the Baptist Faith and Message. And it, along with your ultra-conservative leadership, is tearing the convention apart.

I believe in all that stuff, except what exactly does it mean to believe in the holy catholic church?
according to teh site i cribbed from "The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ"

maybe for you it would mean the brotherhood of all true christians?

I was speaking of the ones I know about, I don't pretend to know the religious backgrounds of Newbies. Pardon me if I misled.
I wasn't misled. just a little joke.

there are at least 4 Mormons and 2 JW's although there are about 6 former Jw's running around on general too.;)

They don't usually post on the weekend though.
Yeah, I'm one of those former JW's (though I prefer to say that I'm in recovery, or in decontamination :)), but even though I have, let's say, a complicated relationship with the church, there's no doubt in my mind that, according to any definition I could come up with for Christianity, they qualify.

I am confused at the way you say "god". Would it be the same thing if one were to say "immortal being" and "god-like"?
no it would not.

God is "god the father almighty creator of heaven and earth" as spelled out in the bible.

of course they are christians

they are just heretics because they dont follow the nicean creed that all other christians follow

OK! What parts of the creed don't they follow?

OK! What parts of the creed don't they follow?
i thought you would never ask!

there are others but

jws dont believe that jesus is the begotten son of god. they believe he is the archangel gabriel (or one of the others)

the mormons believe that satan is also the son of god.

plus they believe that if you meet the proper qualifications you can become the god of your own universe some time in the distant future.

You most certainly do. It's called the Baptist Faith and Message. And it, along with your ultra-conservative leadership, is tearing the convention apart.
tearing the convention apart? It did have a split, a while back between the liberal wing, and the more conservative wing. No group of people are ever going to agree all the time, but I seriously doubt that we are being torn apart.

If anyone is really interested you can find the Baptist Faith and message here. (http://sbc.net/bfm/default.asp)

i thought you would never ask!

there are others but

jws dont believe that jesus is the begotten son of god. they believe he is the archangel gabriel (or one of the others)

the mormons believe that satan is also the son of god.

plus they believe that if you meet the proper qualifications you can become the god of your own universe some time in the distant future.
actually they believe he is Michael, but close enough

OK! What parts of the creed don't they follow?
JW's don't believe in the Trinity--they believe that Jehovah is the Father, supreme, omnipotent, and that Jesus is his son, secondary and separate, but still divine in nature and the savior, the Lamb of God who takes away sin from the world, etc. They believe the Holy Spirit is the motive force of Jehovah, the hand of god you might say, and that it is both separate from God and Jesus, and is not conscious in the same way that the father and the son are.

As a Southern Baptist I don't follow any creeds, does that make me a heretic?:eek:

All the Southern Baptists that I have ever know believe in the Nicene Creed. It or the Apostles Creed (same thing different words) are the tenants of Christianity.

http://www.mit.edu/~tb/anglican/intro/lr-nicene-creed.html

http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/apostles_creed.html

I am confused at the way you say "god". Would it be the same thing if one were to say "immortal being" and "god-like"?
it would be the same as believing that you can be a god. I know a Mormon that tells me that when he dies, he will have his own planet that he will be god over, and the God we know was just a man and we are his planet.

If anyone is really interested you can find the Baptist Faith and message here. (http://sbc.net/bfm/default.asp)
I like you a lot, Smunke, but no thanks. I had about all the "fire and brimstone" one human can take in one lifetime. :D

no it would not.

God is "god the father almighty creator of heaven and earth" as spelled out in the bible.
That is what god is. I am questioning when you posted about becoming "gods". Because God is God himself. Nobody would adopt become "God" because that is him. This is why I questioned. This is why I said perhaps "god-like" or "immortal" as in obtaining the powers god has, but not becoming him, because he is already himself.

i happen to be lds and we are both christian

Do you beleive in the Nicean or Apostles Creed? If neither, what objections do you have to them?

I believe in all that stuff, except what exactly does it mean to believe in the holy catholic church?

catholic - universal not Roman Catholic.

i thought you would never ask!

there are others but

jws dont believe that jesus is the begotten son of god. they believe he is the archangel gabriel (or one of the others)

the mormons believe that satan is also the son of god.

plus they believe that if you meet the proper qualifications you can become the god of your own universe some time in the distant future.
Satin was a spiritual son of god. but god can not allow any sin in his presence. Therefore, he sent satan to a son of perdition. He cast him out not to be his son. Satan now is not called a son of god.

All the Southern Baptists that I have ever know believe in the Nicene Creed. It or the Apostles Creed (same thing different words) are the tenants of Christianity.

http://www.mit.edu/~tb/anglican/intro/lr-nicene-creed.html

http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/apostles_creed.html
believing what it says and following it are two different things.

Southern Baptist basic beliefs (http://sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp)

believing what it says and following it are two different things.
Hell, that's the story of christianity from the time it began.

I like you a lot, Smunke, but no thanks. I had about all the "fire and brimstone" one human can take in one lifetime. :D
I meant interested in the sense of 'what the heck are they talking about?!'
not in the sense that I was trying to convert anyone;) I know better than that Eut.:p

I am LDS and this is what I have to say.
We are children of god. We progress through states. God has a Body. We are sent here to learn obediance to the spirit. and how to control the "natural man" In the afterlife it is possible to become as god. The qualifications are strict. This because anyone with the littlest incline to sin should not be a god. I would think people would agree. This is another reason why there is repentance using the atonement of christ. It washes away our sin. This would mean that we would not sin again. This is why repentance is so important. so we can become like christ. and become like god. to try to bring ourselves out of sin. and become spottless before god.

i thought you would never ask!

there are others but

jws dont believe that jesus is the begotten son of god. they believe he is the archangel gabriel (or one of the others)

the mormons believe that satan is also the son of god.

plus they believe that if you meet the proper qualifications you can become the god of your own universe some time in the distant future.

If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, then they are not Christians. Christians believe in either the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed. They believe that Jesus is both the Son of God and God. They believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They do not believe Satin is the Son of God, but he is a fallen angel.

Thank you.

Hell, that's the story of christianity from the time it began.
re-reading that I think I misspoke.


I believe what it says, it's scriptural, I follow it, I just don't recite it daily or anything.

In some groups, statements of belief have the same authority as Scripture. We call this creedalism. Baptists also make statements of belief, but all of them are revisable in light of Scripture. The Bible is the final word.

Because of this distinction, we are generally more comfortable with the word "confession." Still, we are "creedal" in the sense that we believe certain things, express those beliefs and order our institutions accordingly. There have always been Baptist limits. And within these limits, there have always been Baptist preferences.

JW's don't believe in the Trinity--they believe that Jehovah is the Father, supreme, omnipotent, and that Jesus is his son, secondary and separate, but still divine in nature and the savior, the Lamb of God who takes away sin from the world, etc. They believe the Holy Spirit is the motive force of Jehovah, the hand of god you might say, and that it is both separate from God and Jesus, and is not conscious in the same way that the father and the son are.

Thanks.

mormons are christians :)

Thanks.
Just out of curiosity, because I don't have a dog in this hunt anymore, does that explanation change your opinion of whether or not JW's are considered christian? I saw above that you felt they weren't, after Ashmoria's limited definition.

I meant interested in the sense of 'what the heck are they talking about?!'
not in the sense that I was trying to convert anyone;) I know better than that Eut.:p
LOL! You are sooo easy to mess wid! :D

You're all missing what it means to be a Christian. My dad's a southern baptist minister and I don't believe all that Christian stuff but I do know what they believe backwards and forwards. Depending on the denomination, there is a different deffinition for being a Christian for each denomination.:rolleyes:

what is the creed?

did man or god make the creed

Well, if Mormons are not Christians, good for them! I can say that I have had more meaningful interactions with people that call themselves Mormons than I have had with people that call themselves Christians.

right on man

You're all missing what it means to be a Christian. My dad's a southern baptist minister and I don't believe all that Christian stuff but I do know what they believe backwards and forwards. Depending on the denomination, there is a different deffinition for being a Christian for each denomination.:rolleyes:


Actually, they all tend to have the same definition of what makes one a Christian: "Anyone who doesn't believe exactly what we do on all topics, isn't a Christian because no one but us knows the Truth,"

NOTE: This is not directed at anyone on this thread. I've gotten to know most of you and know you're not like that.

Depending on who you ask I do not think they are Christian's most every one I know say they are a Cult not Christians. This is a great debate I do give you that. We have invited many JW and Mormons to are bible studies but they have always turned us down. And how many of you think the book of mormon is part of the bible or the forgotten words of the bible. I do not think this but have a few friends that are Mormons that tell me that all the time they dont read the bible but they will read the book of mormons.

If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, then they are not Christians. Christians believe in either the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed. They believe that Jesus is both the Son of God and God. They believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They do not believe Satin is the Son of God, but he is a fallen angel.

Thank you.
thats why i say they are christians but heretics.

heretic sounds terrible but there was a time when most of the beliefs of protestant churchs that varied from (roman) catholic belief was considered heretic. today we fight over it but dont really consider each other heretics unless we dont follow those basic beilefs.

Depending on who you ask I do not think they are Christian's most every one I know say they are a Cult not Christians. This is a great debate I do give you that. We have invited many JW and Mormons to are bible studies but they have always turned us down. And how many of you think the book of mormon is part of the bible or the forgotten words of the bible. I do not think this but have a few friends that are Mormons that tell me that all the time they dont read the bible but they will read the book of mormons.
have you ever looked up the deginition of a cult? A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
Second of all, The book of mormon is not part of the bible the bible is a history of the people on the asian european area. on that continent. BOM is the history of the people on the American Continent. We are all children of god. does your mother treat different members of the family differently? not usually. We know people were on the american continenent. God did not forget them. he told them also to keep a record. The book of mormon was directly translated. It helps us understand the Bible better. it, in fact, supports the Bible. Mormons feel it of importance to read both the Bible and the BOM.

thats why i say they are christians but heretics.

heretic sounds terrible but there was a time when most of the beliefs of protestant churchs that varied from (roman) catholic belief was considered heretic. today we fight over it but dont really consider each other heretics unless we dont follow those basic beilefs.

When a religion declares itself the one true faith, it kind of has to find ways to define its own qualities against that of the 'heretics'. Otherwise that would defeat its notion.

We are all children of god. does your mother treat different members of the family differently? not usually. We know people were on the american continenent. God did not forget them. he told them also to keep a record.

So under this line of thinking, where is the holy text for the African and Austraian continents. Did god just forget them?

did man or god make the creed
it is a man-made creed, but is scripturally accurate. The creed is far less important to most of the Christians I know than actual scripture is. I suppose it is kinda like a summary of what they (we) believe.

Just out of curiosity, because I don't have a dog in this hunt anymore, does that explanation change your opinion of whether or not JW's are considered christian? I saw above that you felt they weren't, after Ashmoria's limited definition.
now dont be misunderstanding me. i would never deny that any follower of jesus was not a christian just because of a few odd beliefs. as eutrusca said "by their acts will you know them"

if god doesnt like the fullness of their belief, thats for him to sort out, not me.

So under this line of thinking, where is the holy text for the African and Austraian continents. Did god just forget them?
they are out there. God chose the time when joseph smith was on the earth to reveal the BOM. the BOM sayes, as does the bible, that there are more writings. Not everyone even understands the BOM. When we understand the BOM God will find time to reveal more truths.

as I was saying. God doesn't forget his children.

mormons are christians :)
I am going to assume you are mormon (forgive me if I am incorrect)

can you answer a few questions for me?

the BOM sayes, as does the bible, that there are more writings.

Actually the Bible says in two different locations that there will be no more books. So the Bible does not support this. And I would be hard pressed to trust the BoM's prophesizing of its own truthfulness by way of there being other texts out there. Something claiming itself to be true like that does not make it so.

now dont be misunderstanding me. i would never deny that any follower of jesus was not a christian just because of a few odd beliefs. as eutrusca said "by their acts will you know them"

if god doesnt like the fullness of their belief, thats for him to sort out, not me.
See, personally, I take a much wider view of what it means to be a Christian. For instance, I consider myself a Christian while simultaneously being practically atheist, because I respect the teachings of Jesus and do what I can to live by the spirit he espoused, even though I don't believe in his divinity.

actually they believe he is Michael, but close enough
guess i shoulda clicked on the link you provided

interestingly (at least to me) i live in a town that was visited by the archangel michael

back in the early 1600s he appeared during a devastating attack by apaches and saved the local spanish and indian population. they renamed the local church from "nuestra senora de socorro" to "san miguel" because of it.

I am going to assume you are mormon (forgive me if I am incorrect)

can you answer a few questions for me?

how did you guess:D

I am going to assume you are mormon (forgive me if I am incorrect)

can you answer a few questions for me?


ask ask ask i can tell you much but it will be fun to try

how did you guess:D
Who is Jesus?

Why did he come here?

Is he God?

What happens when you die?


If something favorable can happen, how do you ensure that you get the favorable consequence?

Can you become a god?

Who is God? Where did He come from?

they are out there. God chose the time when joseph smith was on the earth to reveal the BOM. the BOM sayes, as does the bible, that there are more writings. Not everyone even understands the BOM. When we understand the BOM God will find time to reveal more truths.
if a prophet appeared in australia in a manner similar to joseph smith would you be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt?

Who is Jesus?

Why did he come here?

Is he God?

What happens when you die?


If something favorable can happen, how do you ensure that you get the favorable consequence?

Can you become a god?

Who is God? Where did He come from?




hold on i am a slow typer

Are Mormons Christian? (http://www.afcministry.com/Are_Mormons_Christians.htm)



Jehovah's witness (http://www.afcministry.com/Jehovahs_Witnesses.htm)



I know that apologetics are often looked to as biased, but I have yet to find someone in the LDS church or in the JW church that can honestly say that this guy is lying about anything.

Well, I am neither a Witness, nor a Mormon... but I can tell straight away that our friend the apologist is shaping scripture to meet his own needs.

I have talked with Witnesses before, and the one thing I have noticed is that they are WELL VERSED on their scripture. I don't just mean they can quote the odd passage here and there, I mean, they collectively study the text in the context of the ORIGINAL tongues.

On your source, I see the commentator quibbling over how the Witness interprets the word firstborn... and yet, the apologist is somehow attempting to discredit the Witness interpretation of firstborn IN GREEK, through reference to firstborn in Hebrew scripture.

Even the most naive christian SHOULD know that the Hebrew language is vastly different to the Greek tongue... and that our OWN language is different again. To attempt to discredit a faith over interpretations of translations is a shaky approach, at best.


The other big bone of contention the apologist seems to find, is that Jesus MIGHT (according to ONE issue of Watchtower) be the physical incarnation of the Angel 'Michael'.

For some reason, the apologist finds this difficult to grasp, and yet (one assumes) he easily accepts the name 'The Word' for the unborn Christ. Perhaps he is not aware, but the Jewish roots of Christianity actually had Jesus as being the physical manifestation of an Angel, named (in that case) 'Messiah'. Indeed - it does appear that (once again) the biggest fault the apologist can find, is god-in-the-gaps... that is: The Bible doesn't EXPLICITLY describe the NATURE of Jesus, BEFORE his manifestation on earth... except to say that he was with god, and that he was god (if you accept that interpretation).

Do Witnesses 'follow' the teaching of Jesus? Yes... so, they are Christians, then.

Who is Jesus?

Why did he come here?

Is he God?

What happens when you die?


If something favorable can happen, how do you ensure that you get the favorable consequence?

Can you become a god?

Who is God? Where did He come from?

son of god
mary and god
yes
that depends
don't understand
you can become like god
i'll tell you when i find out

yes


since he is asking about jesus being part of the trinity and mormons not believing in the trinity, you should probably qualify that by saying 'he is a god'

Actually the Bible says in two different locations that there will be no more books. So the Bible does not support this. And I would be hard pressed to trust the BoM's prophesizing of its own truthfulness by way of there being other texts out there. Something claiming itself to be true like that does not make it so.

Although, one must remember the references to 'adding nothing to the text', occur at different stages in the creation of THAT 'text'...

Such that, the FIRST such reference suggest NOTHING may be added to the Pentatauch.

The Second such reference, I believe, admonishes against adding anything to Torah.

Only the third such reference occurs in the New Testament, if I recall correctly... and it is often argued, each of these events ONLY refers to the particular BOOK (i.e. Genesis, or Leviticus, or Revelation, or whatever) that the quote is in.

One should ALSO remember, that the Bible explicitly states that ALL scripture is inspired.

All in all, a pretty strong argument AGAINST the 'no more scripture, ever' mentality.

a few words


i ment to say i can't tell you much

ande i don't know the diffrence

-snip-

Do Witnesses 'follow' the teaching of Jesus? Yes... so, they are Christians, then.
you make good points (as always) but they don't technically follow the teachings of Christ because Jesus himself said he is The way, the truth and the life and nobody comes to the father but by him.

JW's and Mormons both do the faith+works thing, they do not believe that Jesus was sufficient for thier salvation, nor do they believe He is the way to God.

:) :mad: :headbang: :cool: :sniper: :rolleyes: :mp5: :p :gundge: :D :
i have nothing to do

Actually the Bible says in two different locations that there will be no more books. So the Bible does not support this. And I would be hard pressed to trust the BoM's prophesizing of its own truthfulness by way of there being other texts out there. Something claiming itself to be true like that does not make it so.
where does the bible state this?

you make good points (as always) but they don't technically follow the teachings of Christ because Jesus himself said he is The way, the truth and the life and nobody comes to the father but by him.

JW's and Mormons both do the faith+works thing, they do not believe that Jesus was sufficient for thier salvation, nor do they believe He is the way to God.

we do the faith+works thing because of him


do not not take anything i say fact for

:D the church of jesus christ of latter day saints

:) :mad: :headbang: :cool: :sniper: :rolleyes: :mp5: :p :gundge: :D :
i have nothing to do
you could always use a bunch of annoying smileys for no reason.........


okay, so when people die, in your view what happens?

heaven? hell? nothing? we all get our own planet? what?

if a prophet appeared in australia in a manner similar to joseph smith would you be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt?
Do your research on joseph smith. I find it improbible for this to happen again. seeing as how god gives his revelation to the modern day prophet. the proper priesthood keys have been restored. he wouldn't give it to someone without the right athourity.

where does the bible state this?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9994622&postcount=80

Grave_n_Idle did fairly well at discussing this.

you could always use a bunch of annoying smileys for no reason.........


okay, so when people die, in your view what happens?

heaven? hell? nothing? we all get our own planet? what?
heaven hell, each with its own degrees according to their works and faith.

I have measured their religious wackiness and compared it with all other major religions and branchings. I have determined that both Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses fall well withing the boundaries of christianity on the religious wacko-meter.

Whereas, oddly enough, the Southern Baptists are actually Muslim and Fred Phelps' congregation takes the tier once held by the Heaven's Gate cult. :)

we do the faith+works thing because of him


do not not take anything i say fact for

:D the church of jesus christ of latter day saints
I do good works because I want to, because I love Jesus and I want to show His love to others through my life, not because I am "working out my own salvation" which is what I get from many of the Mormons and JWs that I know.

Are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses Christian?

Don't know.
Don't care.
Does it matter?

okay, so when people die, in your view what happens?

heaven? hell? nothing? we all get our own planet? what?[/QUOTE]

the go to one of two places
paradise or prison depending on how they lived there lives and the knowlegde
that they had
i myself are going to prison or i will if get off the computer once and a while:D

Do your research on joseph smith. I find it improbible for this to happen again. seeing as how god gives his revelation to the modern day prophet. the proper priesthood keys have been restored. he wouldn't give it to someone without the right athourity.

Well, try to approach it as a hypothetical. If a man in australia today claimed to prophet in a manner similar to how joseph smith did, would you give him the benefit of the doubt?

heaven hell, each with its own degrees according to their works and faith.
do you have scripture backing that up?

please post it. (and when I say scripture, I am refering to the Holy Bible, I don't accept the BOM as scripture)

so god can give revelation any time. at his pleasure. when he sees fit. who are we to tell god when he can or if he cannot. he is all powerfull.

I have measured their religious wackiness and compared it with all other major religions and branchings. I have determined that both Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses fall well withing the boundaries of christianity on the religious wacko-meter.

Whereas, oddly enough, the Southern Baptists are actually Muslim and Fred Phelps' congregation takes the tier once held by the Heaven's Gate cult. :)
In what world does Southern Baptist = Muslim?

I just want to know, because as a Southern Baptist I don't see the connection, I get a lot of "I hate Southern Baptists!!!!!!!!" around here but nobody explains why.

do you have scripture backing that up?

please post it. (and when I say scripture, I am refering to the Holy Bible, I don't accept the BOM as scripture)


there is but don't remember it

Do your research on joseph smith. I find it improbible for this to happen again. seeing as how god gives his revelation to the modern day prophet. the proper priesthood keys have been restored. he wouldn't give it to someone without the right athourity.
hmmmmm

if other divine works exist undiscovered in africa, asia or australia, how would they be discovered it not by some local "joseph smith"?

In what world does Southern Baptist = Muslim?

I just want to know, because as a Southern Baptist I don't see the connection, I get a lot of "I hate Southern Baptists!!!!!!!!" around here but nobody explains why.

It's a pure measurement of general nuttiness and I think a healthy dose of it derives from an attempted boycott of Disney for being one of the first companies in America to recognize homosexual unions.

By no means is it meant to be any more of a knock on Southern Baptists than any other religion.

As a non-religious Christian, I think you're all wackos. :)

hmmmmm

if other divine works exist undiscovered in africa, asia or australia, how would they be discovered it not by some local "joseph smith"?

that is up to god not man
now what is the nice creed i asked earlier but noone answered

do you have scripture backing that up?

please post it. (and when I say scripture, I am refering to the Holy Bible, I don't accept the BOM as scripture)
jesus taught his desciples: "in my father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (john 14:2) If there were but one heaven, and all who go there would share and share alike, how inconsistent for jesus to even suggest going to prepare a place for his diciples, and then to add, "in my father's house are many mansions." Paul knew there was a third heaven he stated "I knew a man in christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: god knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew a man, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: god knoweth; ) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." (2 corinthians 12:2-4)
"There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in Glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead..... (1 corinthians 15:40-42)






(information found in "A marvelous Work and a Wonder" by LeGrand Richards)

i need some one to ask very hard questions on mormons
i plan on going on a mission and i need the practice

i will say i don't know alot:)

jesus taught his desciples: "in my father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (john 14:2) If there were but one heaven, and all who go there would share and share alike, how inconsistent for jesus to even suggest going to prepare a place for his diciples, and then to add, "in my father's house are many mansions." Paul knew there was a third heaven he stated "I knew a man in christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: god knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew a man, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: god knoweth; ) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." (2 corinthians 12:2-4)
"There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in flory. So also is the resurrection of the dead..... (1 corinthians 15:40-42)






(information found in "A marvelous Work and a Wonder" by LeGrand Richards)


did you go on a mission:confused:

i need some one to ask very hard questions on mormons
i plan on going on a mission and i need the practice

i will say i don't know alot:)
As a preparing missionary also, I would like to say, read the book I got my information from" its a great one to prepare with.

i need some one to ask very hard questions on mormons
i plan on going on a mission and i need the practice

i will say i don't know alot:)

Edit: that was an unfair question to start with. I'll ask a nicer one. How can BoM ancestry be true when DNA evidence conclusively proves that the Amerindians are of Asian origin and not Hebrew?

Just out of curiosity, because I don't have a dog in this hunt anymore, does that explanation change your opinion of whether or not JW's are considered christian? I saw above that you felt they weren't, after Ashmoria's limited definition.

If they don't believe in the trinity, if they don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, then I do not believe they are Christian. I think the Niacin and Apostles Creed spells out the Christian belief and if you do not believe in either of those Creeds, you are not Christian. I'm still trying to find out exactly what LD and JW believe, as I don't really know.

You're all missing what it means to be a Christian. My dad's a southern baptist minister and I don't believe all that Christian stuff but I do know what they believe backwards and forwards. Depending on the denomination, there is a different deffinition for being a Christian for each denomination.:rolleyes:

You need to have a serious talk with your dad.

i need some one to ask very hard questions on mormons
i plan on going on a mission and i need the practice

i will say i don't know alot:)
And I don't think here is all that great of a place to practice. debate is not something missionaries should be trying to do. Only to answer questions that they really want answers to. so they can understand.

And I don't think here is all that great of a place to practice. debate is not something missionaries should be trying to do. Only to answer questions that they really want answers to. so they can understand.

If you cannot debate your own beliefs though, there is no way you can truly understand them.

Edit: that was an unfair question to start with. I'll ask a nicer one. How can BoM ancestry be true when DNA evidence conclusively proves that the Amerindians are of Asian origin and not Hebrew?
Read the BOM and find out what happens

that is up to god not man
now what is the nice creed i asked earlier but noone answered
did you see that post where i asked smunkeeville a bunch of questions that started with..

do you believe in god the father almighty creator of heaven and earth?

those questions ARE the nicean creed in a nutshell. all mainstream christians sects can say "yes" to all the questions

put "nicean creed" or "apostles creed" into google and it can tell you the history of it.

If you cannot debate your own beliefs though, there is no way you can truly understand them.
That is true. but on a learning grounds, this is not the best place to start.

Read the BOM and find out what happens

Firstly, i have read it.
Secondly, this is not an answer in the slightest. I asked a question. Quit stalling with 'it is up to god' or 'read the book' and give an answer if you know your faith well.

Who is Jesus?

Why did he come here?

Is he God?

What happens when you die?


If something favorable can happen, how do you ensure that you get the favorable consequence?

Can you become a god?

Who is God? Where did He come from?

To clarify a little...

1. Who is Jesus? - Jesus is the Christ, the Only Begotten of the Father and our Saviour. He is a God with a body of flesh and bone, a seperate entity from Heavenly Father, although he may be referred to by the title "Father" which I'll explain if you want to know about it.

2. Why did he come here? - Jesus Christ came to take upon himself the sins of the world, thus allowing man to have the capacity to repent.

3. Is he God? - He is not God; he is a memeber of the Godhead, compromising of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, each of which are seperate, distinct beings, although one in purpose. There's a bit more about this in my first answer.

4. Your spirit is seperated from your body. It then goes to either spirit prison or paradise. This is a partial judgement, and spirits in prison may move to paradise after they have accepted the truth and have received all necessary earthly ordinances. After the Second Coming and the Millenium (Resurrection of the righteous occurs before the Millenium, ressurection of the wicked after. The Millenium is a period of a thousand years where Christ will reign personally on the earth), there will be a Final Judgement, where men will be seperated into the Three Degrees of Glory, or be thrust into outer darkness (a rare occurance, since very few human beings actually have the capacity to commit sins that would place them here). The degrees are Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial, from highest degree to lowest degree. In turn, the Celestial is further divided into three degrees. Only spirits entering the highest degree will have the oppurtunity to live with their families and receive increase. Although no physical torment takes place, spirits in the lower kingdoms will likely be tormented by the fact they could not enter the highest. This is the most common definition of Hell in Mormonism.

5. If something favorable can happen, how do you ensure that you get the favorable consequence?

Obey the commandments and receive all earthly ordinances pertaining to salvation. We will be judged on the basis of the truth we know. Men unable to receive saving ordinances in this life can have them performed by proxy here on earth (the primary purpose of temples).

6. Can you become a God?

In the sense that you have the powers, wisdom, and knowledge that God has, as well as an eternal increase in posterity, then yes. However, God will be above us all and will receive worship as God, whereas we will not.

7. Who is God? Where did He come from?

Good question. I'll put down what I know. God possesses all knowledge, wisdom, and power and is without the bounds of time. He is a distinct, seperate entity with a ressurected body of flesh and bone. In the King Fowlett discourse, a funeral service by the Propeht Jospeh, God is referred to as an exalted man and the possiblity of there being other Gods before Him is raised, although I don't know the exact wording. Mormons believe that all things existed from the beginning, so presumably God existed then. (If that creates confusion with the Creation, we believe that God formed the earth from pre-existing materials, much like the way we would create a work of art.)

If you cannot debate your own beliefs though, there is no way you can truly understand them.
Also, the point of a missionary is to spread the gospel. and bring the children of god to the gospel. To convert people. not to waste time in debates that will lead to nowhere for the other person in the debate.

If you have other questions, I have a performance, but if there's ways to PM me, go for it. Sorry I can't stick around for the debate.

It's a pure measurement of general nuttiness and I think a healthy dose of it derives from an attempted boycott of Disney for being one of the first companies in America to recognize homosexual unions.

By no means is it meant to be any more of a knock on Southern Baptists than any other religion.

As a non-religious Christian, I think you're all wackos. :)
okay, I get it. I am officially un-offended by you anyway(I am still offended by the people who bash southern baptists and then won't explain)

You know we were boycotting Disney for a lot more reasons than the homosexual thing, that is just what got publicized the most, anyway, I remember sneaking Disney movies as a child, it was my form of rebellion. :p

Also, the point of a missionary is to spread the gospel. and bring the children of god to the gospel. To convert people. not to waste time in debates that will lead to nowhere for the other person in the debate.

If you believe that, you honestly have no idea what debate is.

It tends to enhance understanding on both sides, even if stalwartly so. If the missionary is not strong in their own belief, how can they ever hope to convince people their religion is true?

Firstly, i have read it.
Secondly, this is not an answer in the slightest. I asked a question. Quit stalling with 'it is up to god' or 'read the book' and give an answer if you know your faith well.
I'll admit I'm not perfect in my faith. Yet of course. But I will attempt to explain what my thoughts are right now. dont take this to be anything with what LDS religion believes. but it may help explain. God made a physical change on cain and his posterity. In the book of mormon the lamenites had a physical change also, because of their wickedness. in the End of the BOM the nephites were whiped out. Killed off because of their unbelieve. the Laminites are what were left. Those with the physical change. which could be why they are linked to asian.

Firstly, i have read it.
Secondly, this is not an answer in the slightest. I asked a question. Quit stalling with 'it is up to god' or 'read the book' and give an answer if you know your faith well.
I'll admit I'm not perfect in my faith. Yet, of course. But I will attempt to explain what my thoughts are right now. dont take this to be anything with what LDS religion believes. but it may help explain. God made a physical change on cain and his posterity. In the book of mormon the lamenites had a physical change also, because of their wickedness. in the End of the BOM the nephites were whiped out. Killed off because of their unbelieve. the Laminites are what were left. Those with the physical change. which could be why they are linked to asian.

we do the faith+works thing because of him


do not not take anything i say fact for

:D the church of jesus christ of latter day saints

I'm not so sure you are a good spokesperson for your faith, so maybe you should either find someone who is or sit this one out. We are involved with some serious and basic theology here. Thank you for trying though.

you make good points (as always) but they don't technically follow the teachings of Christ because Jesus himself said he is The way, the truth and the life and nobody comes to the father but by him.

JW's and Mormons both do the faith+works thing, they do not believe that Jesus was sufficient for thier salvation, nor do they believe He is the way to God.

Well, there are several answers to that... first, for me, the IMPORTANT part of the Scripture, if I have to pick one, is the Sermon on the Mount. It is the one time Jesus actually just gets out and does his thing.

Regarding the 'way, truth and life' passage... I have two issues with it... one being that it is mere translation from Greek... but the other, more importantly, is that I believe that John's testimony is much akin to Paul's... i.e. neither account was written from a first-hand-witness perspective... and both were written with very specific agendas.

Aside from that, the belief in PURE salvation, I would argue, was an artifact of Paul... and one that James (Jesus' own brother... so an ACTUAL witness to Jesus' ministry) tried to correct.

Jesus suggested (on the mount) that we need to do good works, and James reinforces the same message.

Not to mention the fact that MOST Christians do NOT believe expressly in Paul's perception, even today. In fact, although it may seem more from the US skewed-perspective, it is mainly ONLY the Southern Baptists who cling to the idea that salvation is a one-off free ride.

If you believe that, you honestly have no idea what debate is.

It tends to enhance understanding on both sides, even if stalwartly so. If the missionary is not strong in their own belief, how can they ever hope to convince people their religion is true?
I understand debate. its those who do not understand who one would stop with. those whos goal it is to stop it at all costs. and not to enhance his understanding.

I'll admit I'm not perfect in my faith. Yet of course. But I will attempt to explain what my thoughts are right now. dont take this to be anything with what LDS religion believes. but it may help explain. God made a physical change on cain and his posterity. In the book of mormon the lamenites had a physical change also, because of their wickedness. in the End of the BOM the nephites were whiped out. Killed off because of their unbelieve. the Laminites are what were left. Those with the physical change. which could be why they are linked to asian.

thank you. A response was what I was looking for and you've given me one. It's okay to give your own opinion with clarification beforehand. So no worries.

thank you. A response was what I was looking for and you've given me one. It's okay to give your own opinion with clarification beforehand. So no worries.
haha ok. thanks.

i just want to see what people will ask

I am mormon and I am a christian. Flat out. Christian is anyone who follows the words of christ. I do that. The book of mormon is nothing but another testament that christ is the savior.

i have not been in the world for 6 years
and i don't know how to talk to people
this way i can talk without having to talk

YES!

My thread was a cause for this!

To clarify a little...

1. Who is Jesus? - Jesus is the Christ, the Only Begotten of the Father and our Saviour. He is a God with a body of flesh and bone, a seperate entity from Heavenly Father, although he may be referred to by the title "Father" which I'll explain if you want to know about it.
so if Jesus is a God, but not the God then are you polytheistic?



2. Why did he come here? - Jesus Christ came to take upon himself the sins of the world, thus allowing man to have the capacity to repent.
why do we need to repent?

what happens when we do?

3. Is he God? - He is not God; he is a memeber of the Godhead, compromising of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, each of which are seperate, distinct beings, although one in purpose. There's a bit more about this in my first answer.
so they are equal, but not the same person? How did they become equal?

4. Your spirit is seperated from your body. It then goes to either spirit prison or paradise. This is a partial judgement, and spirits in prison may move to paradise after they have accepted the truth and have received all necessary earthly ordinances.
what earthly ordinances?

After the Second Coming and the Millenium (Resurrection of the righteous occurs before the Millenium, ressurection of the wicked after. The Millenium is a period of a thousand years where Christ will reign personally on the earth), there will be a Final Judgement, where men will be seperated into the Three Degrees of Glory, or be thrust into outer darkness (a rare occurance, since very few human beings actually have the capacity to commit sins that would place them here). The degrees are Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial, from highest degree to lowest degree. In turn, the Celestial is further divided into three degrees. Only spirits entering the highest degree will have the oppurtunity to live with their families and receive increase. Although no physical torment takes place, spirits in the lower kingdoms will likely be tormented by the fact they could not enter the highest. This is the most common definition of Hell in Mormonism.
can you provide scriptural backing for this belief?

5. If something favorable can happen, how do you ensure that you get the favorable consequence?

Obey the commandments and receive all earthly ordinances pertaining to salvation. We will be judged on the basis of the truth we know. Men unable to receive saving ordinances in this life can have them performed by proxy here on earth (the primary purpose of temples).
by proxy? you mean after death baptisms right? where is your scriptural backing for that?

6. Can you become a God?

In the sense that you have the powers, wisdom, and knowledge that God has, as well as an eternal increase in posterity, then yes. However, God will be above us all and will receive worship as God, whereas we will not.
scriptural backing?

7. Who is God? Where did He come from?

Good question. I'll put down what I know. God possesses all knowledge, wisdom, and power and is without the bounds of time. He is a distinct, seperate entity with a ressurected body of flesh and bone. In the King Fowlett discourse, a funeral service by the Propeht Jospeh, God is referred to as an exalted man and the possiblity of there being other Gods before Him is raised, although I don't know the exact wording. Mormons believe that all things existed from the beginning, so presumably God existed then. (If that creates confusion with the Creation, we believe that God formed the earth from pre-existing materials, much like the way we would create a work of art.)
so if there may have been Gods before God, what happened to them? Did they die? Why not worship them? Why not wait until something happens to this God and worship the new one?
Why not do something to this God and become the new one?

now what is the nice creed i asked earlier but noone answered

http://www.mit.edu/~tb/anglican/intro/lr-nicene-creed.html

It is the Nicene Creede. Click the link.

this is the most i have talked to people in a week
i go out once a week to church

http://www.mit.edu/~tb/anglican/intro/lr-nicene-creed.html

It is the Nicene Creede. Click the link.




thanks:)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9994622&postcount=80

Grave_n_Idle did fairly well at discussing this.

Ah! A brief moment of fame! :)

I'm not so sure you are a good spokesperson for your faith, so maybe you should either find someone who is or sit this one out. We are involved with some serious and basic theology here. Thank you for trying though.
"not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven. (matthew 7:21) Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house: and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth theses sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolilsh man, which built his house upon the sand: and the rain descended , and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. (Matthew 7:24-27.) For the son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Matthew 16:27.) But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (james 1:22.) A farmer might just as well believe that he can harvest a crop without planting. Such faith is dead; it will not produce a harvest without works. "For the kingdom of heaven is a man travelling into a far country, who called his won servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to antoher one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey." (matthew 25:14-15)
we all know how this one ended. the one who didn't use his tallents. lost them.

no technically we (mormons) are not christian as we donot follow some of the belifes in the nicean creed and since that is the only clear definition of christianity we arent christian but we do belive in christs birth and literal resurection dont quote me on that though as some mormons dissagree personally i dont think it matters

i need some one to ask very hard questions on mormons
i plan on going on a mission and i need the practice

i will say i don't know alot:)

I'm not a Mormon but my suggestion is to have a long serious talk with your spiritual adviser. You have a lot of work to do before you go on your mission, especially if you are considering doing it in a foreign county. You will have to explain to people the tenants of your faith, and you need to know them and know them well. Good luck.

this is the most i have talked to people in a week
i go out once a week to church
welcome to general. we meet here every day.

I'm not a Mormon but my suggestion is to have a long serious talk with your spiritual adviser. You have a lot of work to do before you go on your mission, especially if you are considering doing it in a foreign county. You will have to explain to people the tenants of your faith, and you need to know them and know them well. Good luck.

Tenets.

Not to mention the fact that MOST Christians do NOT believe expressly in Paul's perception, even today. In fact, although it may seem more from the US skewed-perspective, it is mainly ONLY the Southern Baptists who cling to the idea that salvation is a one-off free ride.
I do believe in once saved always saved (I am Southern Baptist right?;))
but, that is not to say that you can do a half-ass repentance

"Gee, God, I am so sorry that I was sinnin', I get to go to heaven now so nuthin' else matters"

it goes (very simply)
accept (that you are a sinner, and that the wages of your sin is death)
believe (that Jesus is God's only begotten Son, and that he died on the cross for your sins)
commit (commit your life to Christ, doing his work, following his commandments)
disciple (make your everyday goal to be more Christlike)

If you do the Accept and Believe, but not the rest, what have you really done?

That sounds like faith+works, but my works are for a different reason, I know that Jesus' sacrifice was suffiecient, I don't have to "work my way into heaven", I do good works, to further the message on earth and to help myself to become closer in my walk. I am not seeking "extra goodies" I am seeking to enhance my spiritual walk.

I do believe in once saved always saved (I am Southern Baptist right?;))
but, that is not to say that you can do a half-ass repentance

"Gee, God, I am so sorry that I was sinnin', I get to go to heaven now so nuthin' else matters"

it goes (very simply)
accept (that you are a sinner, and that the wages of your sin is death)
believe (that Jesus is God's only begotten Son, and that he died on the cross for your sins)
commit (commit your life to Christ, doing his work, following his commandments)
disciple (make your everyday goal to be more Christlike)

If you do the Accept and Believe, but not the rest, what have you really done?

That sounds like faith+works, but my works are for a different reason, I know that Jesus' sacrifice was suffiecient, I don't have to "work my way into heaven", I do good works, to further the message on earth and to help myself to become closer in my walk. I am not seeking "extra goodies" I am seeking to enhance my spiritual walk.
And what do you think that the LDS works are. its exactly what you say you do. do good. good deeds. thats good works. be christlike in your manner.

To clarify a little...

1. Who is Jesus? - Jesus is the Christ, the Only Begotten of the Father and our Saviour. He is a God with a body of flesh and bone, a seperate entity from Heavenly Father, although he may be referred to by the title "Father" which I'll explain if you want to know about it.

So you do not beleive in the Trinity? You beleive there are three seperate Gods, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

I'm not a Mormon but my suggestion is to have a long serious talk with your spiritual adviser. You have a lot of work to do before you go on your mission, especially if you are considering doing it in a foreign county. You will have to explain to people the tenants of your faith, and you need to know them and know them well. Good luck.

i hope to stay in the usa i have trouble speaking here
lord help me if theysend some where else:eek:

In the general context of the word? No; Today's Christian is someone who follows Paul's interpretation of Christ and only so.

However, in the sense in which one is a follower of Jesus (afterlife being a non-issue) then Yes.

Whichever you think is more important is up to you, but is ultimately telling of your attitude to your Faith.

Paul's interpretation of Christ, heh? And what is that? I would think I would be following Chirst's interpretation of Christ, heh

And what do you think that the LDS works are. its exactly what you say you do. do good. good deeds. thats good works. be christlike in your manner.
you are doing good works to achieve a higher celestial level yes?

if you don't do enough, you get punished?

Jesus suggested (on the mount) that we need to do good works, and James reinforces the same message.

Yes, we need to do good works, but works is not the means of salvation.

As the Nicene Creed isn't based on Scripture, using it to define who is Christian and who is not creates a false argument.

More to the point, any time this issue comes up (such-and-such group isn't really Christian), it reminds me of attempts throughout history to define other peoples as non-human based simply on them being darker, lighter, taller, shorter, non-[whatever the defining group was]. In short, attempting to force your definition of Christianity on others seems a very unChristian thing to do.

Hooplah for the Pharisees. :rolleyes:

So you do not beleive in the Trinity? You beleive there are three seperate Gods, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
That is correct! three seperate beings. "neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me" (John 17:20-21) This is apparent that jesus was not speaking of oneness of personage, but oneness of purpose, for he further prayed that they might be with him, which would be unnecessary if the oneness referred to was of personage instead of purpose. "Father, I will that they also, whom thou has given me, be with me where I am: that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (john 17:24)
it is evident that the oneness reffered t ohas no reference to oneness of personage, for if jesus and his father were one in person, how absurd to think that jesus would pray unto himself, or that he would love himself before the foundation of the world. He said " and this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true god, and jesus christ, whom thou has sent." (john 17:3)

I do believe in once saved always saved (I am Southern Baptist right?;))
but, that is not to say that you can do a half-ass repentance

"Gee, God, I am so sorry that I was sinnin', I get to go to heaven now so nuthin' else matters"

it goes (very simply)
accept (that you are a sinner, and that the wages of your sin is death)
believe (that Jesus is God's only begotten Son, and that he died on the cross for your sins)
commit (commit your life to Christ, doing his work, following his commandments)
disciple (make your everyday goal to be more Christlike)

If you do the Accept and Believe, but not the rest, what have you really done?

That sounds like faith+works, but my works are for a different reason, I know that Jesus' sacrifice was suffiecient, I don't have to "work my way into heaven", I do good works, to further the message on earth and to help myself to become closer in my walk. I am not seeking "extra goodies" I am seeking to enhance my spiritual walk.

My wife is a Southern Baptist, so I sympathise... ;)

However, the abcd approach to works, is no more 'scriptural', than the Methodist approach... both call upon people to do things for other people, as a gesture, reflecting what is INSIDE the Christian.

James said faith without works is dead - so, the Baptist MUST do good works, just as many other denominations believe.

And what happens if you don't do any? Well, the lack of manifestation is taken as a lack of the inspiration. Thus - Southern Baptists MUST do good deeds, for EXACTLY the same reason as other Christians.

All this hand wringing about 'salvation by grace' being the ONLY message of the Bible (Thank you WMUU), misses the point that Jesus preached a good deal more than PURE salvation.

you are doing good works to achieve a higher celestial level yes?

if you don't do enough, you get punished?
you don't get punished, you get a seperate degree of glory. of heaven. You can be a good man and make it to a high degree. where much is given from god, much is required. it takes some large sins to get knocked down in degrees in heaven. Celestial is to be in the presense of our god. He wants us to go to him. He wants us to be obediant to his word to be with him. as for me, I do what god wants me to do. I do good works. the celestial kingdom is the highest kingdom of heaven.

Yes, we need to do good works, but works is not the means of salvation.

Indeed?

So - if you are baptised, but are never 'reconstructed', you still 'get in'?

I am mormon and I am a christian. Flat out. Christian is anyone who follows the words of christ. I do that. The book of mormon is nothing but another testament that christ is the savior.

Your definition of a Christian is not what most Christians believe. Many people in this world "follow the words of Christ" but are not Christian. Christians believe that Christ is the messiah, he is both God and Man, and he is a part of the Trinity. They believe Christ and Christ alone is the means of salvation.

As the Nicene Creed isn't based on Scripture, using it to define who is Christian and who is not creates a false argument.
it is scripturally accurate, not pulled directly word for word from scripture, but basically says the same thing.

if it is not can you point out the flaws?

More to the point, any time this issue comes up (such-and-such group isn't really Christian), it reminds me of attempts throughout history to define other peoples as non-human based simply on them being darker, lighter, taller, shorter, non-[whatever the defining group was]. In short, attempting to force your definition of Christianity on others seems a very unChristian thing to do.
I read the Old testament does that make me Jewish?

We as Christians are warned many times throughout the Bible to be aware of false teachers, when we feel like someone is guilty of twisting the message and leading people astray, why would we as "good Christians" not try to point out the flaws in what they teach, to help people from becoming confused?

Your definition of a Christian is not what most Christians believe. Many people in this world "follow the words of Christ" but are not Christian. Christians believe that Christ is the messiah, he is both God and Man, and he is a part of the Trinity. They believe Christ and Christ alone is the means of salvation.
in the lds religion he is the means of salvation. he takes away our sin. God has to punish someone for sin, because he is a just god. christ took it upon himself to take on the sins of the world. it is through the Atonings sacrifice of Christ that Allows us to go up unto god. and only through christ.

this is the most i have talked to people in a week
i go out once a week to church

You need to get out more.

My wife is a Southern Baptist, so I sympathise... ;)

However, the abcd approach to works, is no more 'scriptural', than the Methodist approach... both call upon people to do things for other people, as a gesture, reflecting what is INSIDE the Christian.

James said faith without works is dead - so, the Baptist MUST do good works, just as many other denominations believe.

And what happens if you don't do any? Well, the lack of manifestation is taken as a lack of the inspiration. Thus - Southern Baptists MUST do good deeds, for EXACTLY the same reason as other Christians.

All this hand wringing about 'salvation by grace' being the ONLY message of the Bible (Thank you WMUU), misses the point that Jesus preached a good deal more than PURE salvation.

I do good deeds, but not in exchange for salvation, that is the point I was trying to make.

Your definition of a Christian is not what most Christians believe. Many people in this world "follow the words of Christ" but are not Christian. Christians believe that Christ is the messiah, he is both God and Man, and he is a part of the Trinity. They believe Christ and Christ alone is the means of salvation.

Actually - you are only addressing one (very narrow) view of what a Christian might be... one could call it the Bob Jones Approach to Christianity...

Those who follow the TEACHING of Jesus, are Christians... is at LEAST as valid a definition as 'those who accept a literal resurrection'.

Those who believe works are required are no less Christian than those who believe that salvation is PURELY by grace.

Jesus said to shun Pharisees. Jesus said to have our OWN discerned relationship with God, and to stop following the ideology of believine BOOKS over the spirit.

To set your store by ANY given scriptural doctrine is, therefore, anti-Christian.


Personally, for me, a Christian is someone who lives a Christlike life.

you don't get punished, you get a seperate degree of glory. of heaven. You can be a good man and make it to a high degree. where much is given from god, much is required. it takes some large sins to get knocked down in degrees in heaven. Celestial is to be in the presense of our god. He wants us to go to him. He wants us to be obediant to his word to be with him. as for me, I do what god wants me to do. I do good works. the celestial kingdom is the highest kingdom of heaven.
So, Jesus died for some of your sins, but not all of them, if you do things that are "bad" enough then Christ's sacrifice no longer covers them and you get bumped down a few levels?

Tenets.

Tank you. :D Even spell check didn't catch that one. :(

If they believe in Jesus as their lord and savoir or whatever... then I'd call them christians.

So, Jesus died for some of your sins, but not all of them, if you do things that are "bad" enough then Christ's sacrifice no longer covers them and you get bumped down a few levels?
not at all. he died for all of them. if you fully repent you don't have those sins anymore. thats who makes it into the celestial kingdom. the fully repentant. when you repent of a sin it is remembered no more. it is taken on by christ. christ even takes on the sin of all small things. those who do not repent, it is not taken on by christ, and are "bumped down levels."

If what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, then they are not Christians. Christians believe in either the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed. They believe that Jesus is both the Son of God and God. They believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They do not believe Satin is the Son of God, but he is a fallen angel.

Thank you.

Didn't mean to interrupt but it's Satan not satin. Just thought that was amusing

Not quite. According to Jesus, "By their acts shall you know them." James ( supposedly the brother of Jesus ) clarifies this by saying that you can say you have faith all you want to, but the proof of your faith is the works you do. So, I would have to say, take a look at the way people who call themselves "Christians" live. Do they give to the poor? Do they comfort those in distress? Do they always have a joyful attitude? Do they pray all the time, but not in public "to be seen of men?" Does their "yes" mean "yes," and their "no" mean "no?" Do they refrain from taking other people, especially other Christians, to court?

If the answer to these questions is "yes," then I would have to say that they are a Christian. If the answer to the questions is "no," then I would be skeptical.

Thats pretty much the same ethos of the Catholic church - the Protestant wings like Southern Baptist church however believe that a good homo bash, a hate crime or two coupled with a bit of bashing of women into submission is all part of of gods works, as long as you believe in Jesus Christ being the son of god.

Don't ya just love hypocrisie, but then again, I can never understand why people would follow Christianity, let alone the slave condoning, women hating, homo bashing, single mother chadising movement that calls themselves 'evangelicals', 'penticostals' or 'Southern Baptists'.

I do believe in once saved always saved (I am Southern Baptist right?;))
but, that is not to say that you can do a half-ass repentance

You can always become a Methodist or a Catholic. Both allow for backsliding. :D

I do good deeds, but not in exchange for salvation, that is the point I was trying to make.

You do good deeds, one assumes, because the born-again you is Christlike. Being inspired by the spirit compells you to be a reconstructed person, and that means expressing on the outside, what is implicit on the inside...

Am I right?

Are you assured your salvation? Yes.... but you do good works anyway... because that is part of your ministry.

The Methodist believes that works are required... but those works are inspired by faith, just as those of the Baptist.

Both groups feel compelled to do works, both groups (should) believe that their faith is invalid if they do NOT do good works.

Does the Methodist believe he/she is saved without good works? Only to the same degree that the Baptist should.

Tank you. :D Even spell check didn't catch that one. :(

I mean... maybe you have tenants, too.... but... :D

You need to get out more.


i agree but i don't have a choice

i have three kids i did NOT give birth too or to
all boys

[The Nicene Creed] it is scripturally accurate, not pulled directly word for word from scripture, but basically says the same thing.

if it is not can you point out the flaws?Much of Buddhist thought basically says the same thing as Scripture. Does that make it scripturally accurate and therefore a definition of what is or is not true Christian belief?

I read the Old testament does that make me Jewish?As Christianity is a growth out of Judaism, your reading of the O.T. would be an expected occurrence. But to answer the question you seem to be asking, you would have to agree that the groups in question (Mormons and Witnesses) do far more than just read the Bible (both N.T. and O.T.).

We as Christians are warned many times throughout the Bible to be aware of false teachers, when we feel like someone is guilty of twisting the message and leading people astray, why would we as "good Christians" not try to point out the flaws in what they teach, to help people from becoming confused?And who is to say that you haven't been equally misled by a false teacher. That is one of the main tenets of the Witnesses.

who called me old
maybe i am seeing things
:confused:

Didn't mean to interrupt but it's Satan not satin. Just thought that was amusing

:D picky, picky! :fluffle:

To set your store by ANY given scriptural doctrine is, therefore, anti-Christian.
so what good is scripture if we are not to learn from it?

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

how are we to know who is a false prophet, if we don't compare what they say to what Jesus said?

Personally, for me, a Christian is someone who lives a Christlike life.
being good, isn't good enough. You can't be good enough to get into heaven, works (living a Christlike life) are great, but they won't get you anywhere.

Mat 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many good works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

:D picky, picky! :fluffle:
Not picky just laughing at the mix up after all one is a soft material used in shirts and skirts and the other is a fallen angel and the epitome of evil.

i agree but i don't have a choice

i have three kids i did NOT give birth too or to
all boys
whoa you really DO need to get out more. taking care of 3 kids is hard work!

And who is to say that you haven't been equally misled by a false teacher. That is one of the main tenets of the Witnesses.
I believe what I do based on scripture handed down by God, they believe what they do based on changes to scripture handed down by thier organization.

whoa you really DO need to get out more. taking care of 3 kids is hard work!

you don't know the half of it

without god well who knows

I believe what I do based on scripture handed down by God, they believe what they do based on changes to scripture handed down by thier organization.And you can prove your scripture was handed down by God how? Your Bible (whether KJV, Douay, whatever) has inexorably undergone just as many changes by men and their organizations.

so what good is scripture if we are not to learn from it?

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

how are we to know who is a false prophet, if we don't compare what they say to what Jesus said?


being good, isn't good enough. You can't be good enough to get into heaven, works (living a Christlike life) are great, but they won't get you anywhere.

Mat 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many good works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Does it not seem ironic to you, that you ask me what good scripture is if we don't learn from it... and then present a scriptural question based on that?

What did we see in Second Timothy?

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

ALL scripture is 'profitable'... it is a guide to doctrine, it is reproof and correction (so, a guide to spirituality, perhaps), and it is a guide to righteousness (so - a guide to morality, also).

When one looks at the Greek, one sees that the word translated 'instruction' may have a punitive implication, or it MAY mean the kind of nurture one directs towards a child, or to nurture the spirit.

What purpose does scripture serve? It is a 'guide', yes... but is it The Word? Is it more important to have a relationship with 'the words' of scripture, or with 'The Word' of scripture?

How did Jesus react to the Pharisees, and all they 'knew' from their wordplay with the texts? He told them that they knew much, but understood little... because DISCERNMENT is inspiration. They were reading the words, rather than hearing the spirit.

So - your false prophet... how do you identify him? Surely, your faith already tells you the answer to that? The false prophet cannot deceive the Spirit, only the flesh. If you walk in the flesh, you may be deceived by false prophets, but, if you walk in the Spirit, you are armoured against them... you will know them by inspiration, because you KNOW they are false... not because they quibble on scriptural trivia.

Regarding the other... I would agree... the scripture is clear that you must have the faith, AND the works. To claim faith WITHOUT works can ever grant salvation, is to miss the message... just as to claim that works without faith can do the same.

(Of course, my personal view is that THAT is a peculiarly Pauline view.. and that the combination of the Beatitudes, and the judgements of Revelation, suggest at least one route for even the confirmed non-believer to be granted salvation).

I believe what I do based on scripture handed down by God, they believe what they do based on changes to scripture handed down by thier organization.

How do you KNOW your scripture is handed down by god?

After all... if Satan were real, and his sole goal really was the corruption of the innocent... wouldn't he write a book of so-called scripture, and CLAIM that it was God-inspired?

Not picky just laughing at the mix up after all one is a soft material used in shirts and skirts and the other is a fallen angel and the epitome of evil.

ROLFLMAO :D

And you can prove your scripture was handed down by God how? Your Bible (whether KJV, Douay, whatever) has inexorably undergone just as many changes by men and their organizations.
so, you subscribe to the whole "Bible changed for political gain" theory.

I believe that the Bible was handed down from God because Jesus said it was, I can't "prove" my faith anymore than anyone else can.

I don't believe that changing the Bible every few years, or backtracking on what your prophets said, speaks of people who are actually talking to God.

If you sit down with a Mormon, or a JW and ask them about prophecy that thier church made that didn't come true, they backtrack and then make a new prophecy, wait until that one doesn't come true and then do the same thing again. (or they say "well, some Mormons say that, but we didn't think so after it didn't happen)

You should check out thier websites, they try to skirt around the truth of what they believe from the begining, they don't bring in the conflicts that they have with basic Christian doctrine until much later.

If you sit down with a Mormon, or a JW and ask them about prophecy that thier church made that didn't come true, they backtrack and then make a new prophecy, wait until that one doesn't come true and then do the same thing again. (or they say "well, some Mormons say that, but we didn't think so after it didn't happen)

Like what?

How do you KNOW your scripture is handed down by god?
faith, and the belief that I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and that He would not let me to be led astray.

After all... if Satan were real, and his sole goal really was the corruption of the innocent... wouldn't he write a book of so-called scripture, and CLAIM that it was God-inspired?
plausible. I think it's even very possible, but I doubt it's the Bible. ;)



*Grave_n_idle- I always have to think too much (like there is such a thing as too much :P) when I debate with you.

In my current state though, (sick and on serious cold meds) I am begining to feel like my brain is leaking out through my ears, that and the feeling of my hair growing and my seeing of tracers, I think I need to go to bed. If I feel better tomorrow I may continue to post. :D

faith, and the belief that I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and that He would not let me to be led astray.


plausible. I think it's even very possible, but I doubt it's the Bible. ;)



*Grave_n_idle- I always have to think too much (like there is such a thing as too much :P) when I debate with you.

In my current state though, (sick and on serious cold meds) I am begining to feel like my brain is leaking out through my ears, that and the feeling of my hair growing and my seeing of tracers, I think I need to go to bed. If I feel better tomorrow I may continue to post. :D

Okay... I'll play nice for the time being...

If it helps, I'm about the same degree of sick... and I've been trying to medicate it with this bottle of wine... :D

faith, and the belief that I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and that He would not let me to be led astray.


plausible. I think it's even very possible, but I doubt it's the Bible. ;)



*Grave_n_idle- I always have to think too much (like there is such a thing as too much :P) when I debate with you.

In my current state though, (sick and on serious cold meds) I am begining to feel like my brain is leaking out through my ears, that and the feeling of my hair growing and my seeing of tracers, I think I need to go to bed. If I feel better tomorrow I may continue to post. :D

what are tracers

so, you subscribe to the whole "Bible changed for political gain" theory.There is that. There are also the changes in content and tone that occur during translation, as well as, the bias inherent in selecting the canon in the first place. Add to that the selective interpretation that occurs in the pulpit and you've got yourself an unstable ball of wax.

I believe that the Bible was handed down from God because Jesus said it wasYou now use circular logic. "Jesus said in the scriptures that the scriptures are from God." Interestingly, he says the same thing in the Witness' edition of the Bible (and presumably the BoM).

I don't believe that changing the Bible every few years, or backtracking on what your prophets said, speaks of people who are actually talking to God.Would that be like the S.B.C. changing it's mind about how scripture condoned slavery in the U.S., or that blacks could become members in its churches? All denominations change their minds about things and reinterpret their scriptures, even the Southern Baptists.

If you sit down with a Mormon, or a JW and ask them about prophecy that thier church made that didn't come true, they backtrack and then make a new prophecy, wait until that one doesn't come true and then do the same thing again. (or they say "well, some Mormons say that, but we didn't think so after it didn't happen)

You should check out thier websites, they try to skirt around the truth of what they believe from the begining, they don't bring in the conflicts that they have with basic Christian doctrine until much later.None of which makes them nonChristian, in the same way that the conflicts between Southern Baptist doctrine and Catholic doctrine don't make Baptists nonChristians.

Like what?
too many to post on here.

some of them though include (JW's)

1889 "In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 98-99, 1889)

1897 "The distillery, the brewery, the saloon, the brothel, the pool-room, all time-killing and character-depraving business will be stopped; and their servants will be given something to do that will be beneficial to themselves and others. "Similarly, the building of war-vessels, the manufacture of munitions of war and defense will cease, and armies will be disbanded. The new Kingdom will have no need of these, but will have abundant power to execute summary justice in the punishment of evil doers... "The banking and brokerage business, and other like employment's, very useful under present conditions, will no longer have a place; for under the new conditions the human race will be required to treat each others as members of one family, and private capital and money to loan and to be needed will be things of the past. Landlords and renting agencies will find new employment also, because the new King will not recognize as valid patents and deeds now on record. "...namely, that with present conveniences, if the whole people were put to work systematically and wisely, not more than three hours labor for each individual would be necessary." (Studies, Vol. IV, pp. 633-635, 1897)

1914 "While it's possible that Armageddon may begin next Spring, yet this purely speculation to attempt to say just when. We see, however, that there are parallels between the close of the Jewish age and this Gospel age. These parallels seem to point to the year just before us part particularly the early months." (Watchtower Reprints, VI, Sept 1, 1914, p. 5527)

1920 'Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 89-90)

1967 "Just think, 1975 marks the end of 6,000 years of human experience.....Will it be the time when God executes the wicked?....It very well could be, but we will have to wait to see.' (Watchtower, 1/5/1967, p 262)

1971 "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." (The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah; 1971; 2nd ed.; p. 216)

there are even more here (http://www.bible.ca/Jw-Prophecy.htm)

Okay... I'll play nice for the time being...

If it helps, I'm about the same degree of sick... and I've been trying to medicate it with this bottle of wine... :D
I didn't want you to think I was giving up or something, I do enjoy debating with you, I think I should be sleeping now though. ;)

what are tracers
It's kinda like seeing double only I see it when things move.


like I can see a trail after what just moved by, it is very matrix......


goodnight.

too many to post on here.

some of them though include (JW's)

1889 "In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 98-99, 1889)

1897 "The distillery, the brewery, the saloon, the brothel, the pool-room, all time-killing and character-depraving business will be stopped; and their servants will be given something to do that will be beneficial to themselves and others. "Similarly, the building of war-vessels, the manufacture of munitions of war and defense will cease, and armies will be disbanded. The new Kingdom will have no need of these, but will have abundant power to execute summary justice in the punishment of evil doers... "The banking and brokerage business, and other like employment's, very useful under present conditions, will no longer have a place; for under the new conditions the human race will be required to treat each others as members of one family, and private capital and money to loan and to be needed will be things of the past. Landlords and renting agencies will find new employment also, because the new King will not recognize as valid patents and deeds now on record. "...namely, that with present conveniences, if the whole people were put to work systematically and wisely, not more than three hours labor for each individual would be necessary." (Studies, Vol. IV, pp. 633-635, 1897)

1914 "While it's possible that Armageddon may begin next Spring, yet this purely speculation to attempt to say just when. We see, however, that there are parallels between the close of the Jewish age and this Gospel age. These parallels seem to point to the year just before us part particularly the early months." (Watchtower Reprints, VI, Sept 1, 1914, p. 5527)

1920 'Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old' (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 89-90)

1967 "Just think, 1975 marks the end of 6,000 years of human experience.....Will it be the time when God executes the wicked?....It very well could be, but we will have to wait to see.' (Watchtower, 1/5/1967, p 262)

1971 "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." (The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah; 1971; 2nd ed.; p. 216)

there are even more here (http://www.bible.ca/Jw-Prophecy.htm)
none of which are of the LDS religion. and if so, are not from the right line of authority to be taken as modern day revelation. They would be some persons veiws on things. not the churches. if you can get some from prophets of the LDS faith that both contridict each other as you are try8ing to show. Then this would be believable.

none of which are of the LDS religion. and if so, are not from the right line of authority to be taken as modern day revelation. They would be some persons veiws on things. not the churches. if you can get some from prophets of the LDS faith that both contridict each other as you are try8ing to show. Then this would be believable.
did you miss the part where I said they were JW prophecy?

some of them though include (JW's)

JW's = Jehovah's Witnesses, which would be why none of them are from the LDS religion.

JW's = Jehovah's Witnesses, which would be why none of them are from the LDS religion.
yeah, and I didn't say any of the ones I posted were, I said they were JW

am I missing something?

I didn't think I was that sick from my meds to be this confused about what I said, I am reading my post correctly yes?


If you are looking for some examples of when the Mormon church says one thing and then goes back and changes thier mind, I am too tired tonight to provide many but here (http://www.irr.org/mit/WDIST/wdist-contradictions.html) are a few.

yeah, and I didn't say any of the ones I posted were, I said they were JW

am I missing something?

I didn't think I was that sick from my meds to be this confused about what I said, I am reading my post correctly yes?


If you are looking for some examples of when the Mormon church says one thing and then goes back and changes thier mind, I am too tired tonight to provide many but here (http://www.irr.org/mit/WDIST/wdist-contradictions.html) are a few.
GO

TO

BED

dont make us all put you on ignore until tomorrow

GO

TO

BED

dont make us all put you on ignore until tomorrow
when you are right, you are right, goodnight all.

am I missing something?

Umm yes.... I was trying to tell that other guy why none of them were about Mormons.

so if Jesus is a God, but not the God then are you polytheistic?




why do we need to repent?

what happens when we do?


so they are equal, but not the same person? How did they become equal?


what earthly ordinances?


can you provide scriptural backing for this belief?


by proxy? you mean after death baptisms right? where is your scriptural backing for that?


scriptural backing?

7. Who is God? Where did He come from?


so if there may have been Gods before God, what happened to them? Did they die? Why not worship them? Why not wait until something happens to this God and worship the new one?
Why not do something to this God and become the new one?

The original questions can be found in page 9 of this thread.

1. So if Jesus is a God, but not the God then are you polytheistic?

"Monotheism is the doctrine or belief that there is but one God. If this properly interpreted to mean that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost - each of whom is a seperate and distinct personage - are one God, meaning one Godhead, then true saints are monotheists." (Boyd L. Packer, Mormon Doctrine, p. 511)

We aren't polytheistic, but you could interpret that differently if you wanted to.

2. Why do we need to repent? What happens when we do?

We need to repent because no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. Since sins make you unclean, we need to repent in order to become closer to God, both in this life and in the next (while one is mostly spiritual and the other is literal.)

Proper restitution for the sin is necessary for true repentence, which is one reason why murder and other similar sins are so bad; once comitted, they cannot be undone. Repentence may still be possible through grace ("And it is by grace that we are saved, after all that we can do" forgot the reference), but the original position cannot be restored. However, when repentence occurs, our sins become "as white as wool". We are completely forgiven and the Lord remembers our sins no more. We are also required to forgive all men; not doing so is often a sin more grievous (sp?) than the original one.

3. So they are equal, but not the same person? How did they become equal?

They are equal in power, knowledge, ect. Heavenly Father, however, holds a higher position in the hierarchy of heaven, as a father holds the respect of his son even though they may be equal.

This next one's going to take a bit.

We existed before this life as spirit children of our Father in Heaven. In order to become like Heavenly Father, we needed to come to Earth to recieve a body and be tried and proven worthy to return to him. This meant that we would need a Savior to atone for our sins. When God asked who would go, Jesus replied "Here am I, send me". Satan also came forward, but instead of accepting the Father's plan for salvation, he wished to create a plan in which he would take away our ability to chose and force us back to Heaven. He also wanted the glory (to become greater than God); there's some scriptures in Isaiah about it; something like and thou sayest to thyself; I will ascend to the throne of the Most High.

Anyway, (sorry about that detour) Christ was given power by God and came to Earth, where he paid for our sins, died, and rose on the third day, thus becoming complete through resurrection. (the word perfect could also be substituted for complete, but since Christ was perfect inasmuch as was possible during his ministry, complete works better).

4. What earthly ordinances?

Baptism, confirmation, washings, annointings, endowment, and sealings.

Baptism is a symbol of entrence into the Lord's kingdom and a covenant that we will always remember Him. Baptisms washes away an individual's sins; however, this is mostly unnecessary, as an interview with priesthood authorities to determine an individual's worthiness to be baptized before the ordinance, thus leaving the laws of repentence intact. Baptism must be conducted by immersion (according to LDS doctrine, that's how Christ was baptized).

Confirmation is the Gift of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost may speak to any person, but only those with this gift, also referred to as a baptism of fire, are privileged with his constant influence.

Washings are an ordinance of cleansing, as are annointings.

The endowment are a set of blessings recieved in the templer that endow the reciepient with power from on high. "The ordinances of the endowment embody certain obligations on the part of the individual... With the taking of each convenant and the assuming of each obligation a promised blessing is pronounced, contigent of the conditions." ( Boyd K. Packer, Mormon Doctrine, p. 228-229)

I can't elaborate any further than that, seeing as how I have not received these ordinances myself and the details are given only to worthy members who have reached the point where they are emotionally mature and spiritually prepared.

5. Can you provide scriptural backing for this belief?

I believe Phatt101 already covered this quite thoroughly. I'll try and find the post and stick where it is in here, but for now I'll go onto the next one.

6. by proxy? you mean after death baptisms right? where is your scriptural backing for that?

Yes, all ordinances mentioned above can be done by the living for the dead. This belief is drawn, like most of our beliefs, from revelation from God; however, scriptural basis can be found in 1st Corinthians 15:29. "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why then are they then baptized from the dead?". Also, we believe God to be a perfectly just and merciful God; baptism for the dead allows those who could not recieve the saving ordinances in this life to recieve them in the next.

7. Scriptural backing?

Psalms 82:1

"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods."

John 10: 34-36

"34. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35. If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36. Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

This concept is elaborated on in modern revelation. I'll give one example:
In the Doctrine and Covenants (a book of revelations given to the Prophet), it says "...Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue... Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject to them." ( D. & C. 132:19-20).

8. so if there may have been Gods before God, what happened to them? Did they die? Why not worship them? Why not wait until something happens to this God and worship the new one?
Why not do something to this God and become the new one?

Apparently I remembered things wrong. I looked up the discourse and there is no mention of gods before God. So I was being delusional. There's still that possiblity, but it's not in that discourse.

However, after I looked this up, I can answer your first question better. God always was superiour from the beginning; however, he also went through the same steps that we must go through in order to obtain godhood. That's where the exalted Man comes from (also meaning that he possesses the form of a man). God has the same power to lay down his life and take it up again. I can't find the reference for it, although it is there. I'm just not familiar enough with the Bible.

i wonder if any are on hereI am Christian.

sue me.

("And it is by grace that we are saved, after all that we can do" forgot the reference)

2 Nephi 25:23
For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

I have a hard time accepting a religion that calls itself Christian yet won't use the Bible as their basis of faith. But that's just me. After all:

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

--Revelations, Chapter 22, Verses 18-20


No, I stumbled across this thread late, and I couldn't be bothered with actually reading what was in here :). I am by no means an expert on either faith -- in fact, I know nothing about either, except for the fact Glenn Beck is a Mormon and JW's annoy me when they knock on my door. :D

Oh, yeah, and I'm a Calvinist, so again, basic, fundemental (literally :)) differences of opinion and doctrine.

I have a hard time accepting a religion that calls itself Christian yet won't use the Bible as their basis of faith. But that's just me. After all:

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

--Revelations, Chapter 22, Verses 18-20


No, I stumbled across this thread late, and I couldn't be bothered with actually reading what was in here :). I am by no means an expert on either faith -- in fact, I know nothing about either, except for the fact Glenn Beck is a Mormon and JW's annoy me when they knock on my door. :D

Oh, yeah, and I'm a Calvinist, so again, basic, fundemental (literally :)) differences of opinion and doctrine.

Which religion are you talking about at the beginning there? And that verse... All it is saying is that you shouldn't add to the Book of Revelations. "this book" = Revelations.

I have a hard time accepting a religion that calls itself Christian yet won't use the Bible as their basis of faith. But that's just me. After all..you dont have to accept it... but they are still all Christian...

so spare me your "holier than thou" bull shit.

you dont have to accept it... but they are still all Christian...

so spare me your "holier than thou" bull shit.

No need to start flaming, OD2.

I simply stated: the bible is one of the main foundations of Christianity. I find it difficult to fathom how one can call themselves Christian yet not adhere to the Bible. It was my opinion -- take it or leave it. Instead of leaving it, you lit a match over the spilled can of kerosene.

And besides, as a Calvinist, I believe in divine election -- it's mandatory that I have that "Holier than thou" feeling. ;) :D

Which religion are you talking about at the beginning there?

LDS, mostly. I don't recall if the JW's have their own book or not. If they do, then it's referring to them, too. :D

And that verse... All it is saying is that you shouldn't add to the Book of Revelations. "this book" = Revelations.

Oh, hell.... :(

there are people who are awake amazing
:fluffle: :mp5:
kill sniper ha ha ha ha
man i need to go to bed
but this is the most fun i've had in like forever

LDS, mostly. I don't recall if the JW's have their own book or not. If they do, then it's referring to them, too. :D

Mormons use the Bible too. It's a major part of their religion, it's just not the only book they use.

And besides, as a Calvinist, I believe in divine election -- it's mandatory that I have that "Holier than thou" feeling. ;) :DCalvinist???

What...errr...hmmm...
No I do not want to know... I usually stay away from relifgion debate...so spare me all the details about your particular religion. (I really don have the time)

Just one question, Do you beleive in Jesus Christ son of God?

It was my opinion -- take it or leave it. Instead of leaving it, you lit a match over the spilled can of kerosene.

And besides, as a Calvinist, I believe in divine election -- it's mandatory that I have that "Holier than thou" feeling. ;) :Das a Christian Kerosenist -- it's mandatory that I have that "flamier than thou" feeling. ;) :D

Originally Posted by Kievan


Originally Posted by Smunkeeville


It's something that comes up here quite regularly, so why not.


No.


They're Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, not Christians.

Calvinist???

What...errr...hmmm...
No I do not want to know... I usually stay away from relifgion debate...so spare me all the details about your particular religion. (I really don have the time)

That's fine. There's really only five major points (unless you REALLY want to read the Westminster (sp?) Confession of Faith), but if you don't want me to get into it, I won't.

I will say this, though, due to some infamous posters here on the general fourm, they gave Calvinism a bad name, and it's disappointing, mostly because they used it to back up (falsely) their racist views. Just thought I'd put that out there. :) Us religious fundies aren't all that bad, really. :D

Just one question, Do you beleive in Jesus Christ son of God?

Solus Christus -- In Christ Alone. Of course I do, that's one of the main things if not the biggest thing you need to believe in to be a Christian.

They're Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, not Christians.Calvinists, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, etc... ARE all Christians.

Get over it.

as a Christian Kerosenist -- it's mandatory that I have that "flamier than thou" feeling. ;) :D

Oooh, I wonder if I can be a Calvinist and a Kerosenist.... ;)

Ah, a Boy Scout pyromaniac with kerosene.... :eek: :D

Calvinists, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, etc... ARE all Christians.

Get over it.

Well, I could debate you, simply for the sake of debate and to be a pain in the ass, but it's 2:35 in the morning, and -- I'll admit -- I know jack shit about the LDS's and JW's, so there's no point in it.

Well, I could debate you, simply for the sake of debate and to be a pain in the ass, but it's 2:35 in the morning, and -- I'll admit -- I know jack shit about the LDS's and JW's, so there's no point in it.

So you know nothing about them, but you claim to know that they aren't Christian. Which one is it?

So you know nothing about them, but you claim to know that they aren't Christian. Which one is it?

THe former as well as my actual statement of the latter, not how you twisted it. I said I had a hard time accepting a religion that calls itself Christian yet won't use the Bible as their basis of faith. I knew about that part from what I read somewhere or other (I can't remember where :().

I said I had a hard time accepting that they were Christian, not that they weren't, and I implied that I did not make a final judgement BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT THEM. But then again, assumptions make an ass out of you and me, as the saying goes, so oops on my part.

god loves everyone
maybe i should have not taken drugs:D

legal drugs:eek:

THe former as well as my actual statement of the latter, not how you twisted it. I said I had a hard time accepting a religion that calls itself Christian yet won't use the Bible as their basis of faith. I knew about that part from what I read somewhere or other (I can't remember where :().

I said I had a hard time accepting that they were Christian, not that they weren't, and I implied that I did not make a final judgement BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT THEM. But then again, assumptions make an ass out of you and me, as the saying goes, so oops on my part.

Alright, then sorry. But wherever you read that, they were wrong, since Mormons use the Bible as a major part of their faith. The Book of Mormon doesn't replace the Bible, it is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" and adds to what the Bible says.

Oooh, I wonder if I can be a Calvinist and a Kerosenist.... ;)

Ah, a Boy Scout pyromaniac with kerosene.... :eek: :DIll tell you about the "Baptism-ritual" later...you will like the part about the 69 virgins :D :D :p :D

Ill tell you about the "Baptism-ritual" later...you will like the part about the 69 virgins :D :D :p :D


tell now:cool:

been christan for five years now... now i have taken a this church crap out of the window, i've been through so much on theose churchs, i even got myself excommunicated once (yes, they still do that these days...) by one of those "New Age" churches (you know, those who screams and crys when they pray...) becasue i have serious issues about their teachings...

Everyone says they are a Christian, but are they really??? i dont think so, those Morman people who knocks at your door every now and then, they are actually paying for their college education.. Morman pays for it once you serve them for 2 years.


Now it's ME and GOD, thats it... Oh yeah... and i became a part time Catholic, part time baptist. NEW AGE churches? BAD! VERY BAD!

From my experience...I thought Jehovah's Witnesses were more Jewish than Christian...or maybe I'm think of different people. Either way, I though that Jehovah's Witnesses were the ones that didn't believe that Jesus was the son of God.

As for the Mormons...which I know many of...they're almost...not Christians...because of how much more Christian they tend to act than...other Christians. I've known many. Of them all, they all hate cussing (they don't cuss, and they don't associate with anyone who does, and out of respect, I don't cuss around my Mormon friends...not that I cuss much anyway). They don't watch R-rated movies (until they go to college and you hound them about it for 3 semesters...). And you know for fucking sure that they're abstaining from sex until marriage...because as soon as they hit BYU, they've already found the person they're marrying within a year.

been christan for five years now... now i have taken a this church crap out of the window, i've been through so much on theose churchs, i even got myself excommunicated once (yes, they still do that these days...) by one of those "New Age" churches (you know, those who screams and crys when they pray...) becasue i have serious issues about their teachings...

Everyone says they are a Christian, but are they really??? i dont think so, those Morman people who knocks at your door every now and then, they are actually paying for their college education.. Morman pays for it once you serve them for 2 years.


Now it's ME and GOD, thats it... Oh yeah... and i became a part time Catholic, part time baptist. NEW AGE churches? BAD! VERY BAD!

where have you gotten your info if they did that well
heck i would have a job a house
you know money

Everyone says they are a Christian, but are they really??? i dont think so, those Morman people who knocks at your door every now and then, they are actually paying for their college education.. Morman pays for it once you serve them for 2 years.

Actually those Mormons that come to your door every once in a while are paying their church to be there. It costs something like 400 USD a month for those 20-ish year old young men to be out trying to convert people. And they don't get anything for serving a mission, at least not monetary compensation afterwards (ie for college) or anything like that.

those Morman people who knocks at your door every now and then, they are actually paying for their college education.. Morman pays for it once you serve them for 2 years.
I know Mormon college students who did excellently in high school and got academic scholarships from excellent universities...but are still paying part of their tuition (Mormons aren't paying it for them).

I'm pretty sure Mormons don't have to pay to go to BYU (I think)...but it's not true that Mormons get their college paid for just for being Mormon for 2 years.

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are indeed Christian in that they believe in Jesus Christ as the Lord/Savior/Messiah. They are, however, very different from mainstream Christians (that is, most Catholics/Protestants).

Actually those Mormons that come to your door every once in a while are paying their church to be there. It costs something like 400 USD a month for those 20-ish year old young men to be out trying to convert people. And they don't get anything for serving a mission, at least not monetary compensation afterwards (ie for college) or anything like that.


they made it 450 now

I'm pretty sure Mormons don't have to pay to go to BYU (I think)...but it's not true that Mormons get their college paid for just for being Mormon for 2 years.

Mormons still have to pay tuition to go to BYU. But if you aren't Mormon and want to go there you have to pay a little bit more (although it's only like a 50% increase, and tuition is low there anyways).

I like the people that come to my door, by the way...

"Hello, we're from (whatev their church was). Do you have some time to talk to us today?"

"Whatev."

"Did you know that the events of September 11th were predicted in the Bible?"

"No."

"Would you like me to read you some of the passages that predicted the event?"

"No." (As I think to myself, why didn't anyone point these predictions out on Sept. 10th?)

"Oh, okay." (I shut the door, and go back to sleep.)

I know Mormon college students who did excellently in high school and got academic scholarships from excellent universities...but are still paying part of their tuition (Mormons aren't paying it for them).

I'm pretty sure Mormons don't have to pay to go to BYU (I think)...but it's not true that Mormons get their college paid for just for being Mormon for 2 years.


they do pay and through the nose

they do pay and through the nose

No not really. Tuition at BYU is a lot cheaper than a lot of other universities.

No not really. Tuition at BYU is a lot cheaper than a lot of other universities.


me very poor anything is through the nose for me:)

I'm getting off at about $2k/semester...not at BYU...but I don't see how any of this has anything to do with whether or not their Christians.

Yeah tuition at BYU is a little less than $2k, too. And I have no idea how it has anything to do with being Christian or not.

good night all it's 3:30
in the morning and chruch come soon
play piano at9:00morning
hope you can read this drugs kick in

legal ones:D :mp5:

Mormons are not Christians they practice a religion founded on Self Deification.

Mormons believe they will become Gods.

God was once a Man according to Mormons, and So God once like man so man will be like God.

You will transcend the veil and Ascend to Deity State--you will become the creator of a new universe.

It is like the top of the food chain as far as circle of life goes---the final evolution if you will.

The Doctrine that states you equal God is Diametrically opposed to Christian Doctrine--be it Universal or Seperatist, Western or Eastern.

Mormons are not Christians--

If you would like to examine wha respected LDS scholrs say about their Divinity examine the works of LDS member Truman G madsen--specifically "Human Nature and Divine Nature" from his lectures titled "Timeless Questions and Gospel Insights" it is Lecture 3.
He delves deep into the celebrated idea that each man will become A God--not thatthey are part of God they will become A God.

Another very relevant piece is the "King Follet Discourse" which was a speech given by Joseph Smith himself which again addresses the issue of men being able to become deities.

The Belief that one is capable if sleff deification to equal God is completely un-Christian---but entirely familiar.

While some people may not agree with the Exclusionary pricinples of Christianity--or matter of fact subserviance one must pay to God--it is a primary tenet which defies the most basic of Judeo-Christian fundamentals Exodus 20:3

Mormons are not Christians they practice a religion founded on Self Deification.

Nope, the religion is not founded on that, it's just one of the beliefs. And you use a lot of absolutes in there. Mormons don't believe that they will automatically become a god. Becoming a god is not an absolute thing, there are various things that one would have to do before becoming a god.

Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Mormons don't have other gods before God, so I don't see how they're "defying" that commandment.

So how does all of this show that they're not Christian? Believing that man has the potential to be like God doesn't mean that they don't believe in Christ, etc. What exactly is your definition of a "Christian?"

As a former Mormon (turned Norse Pagan and follower of Loki), I can honestly tell you the Mormon church is a Christian establishment. I was a member from the time I was six years old until the time I was seventeen. If you're looking for a Christian religion that embodies the true spirit of what Christianity is supposed to be, Mormonism is the way to go imho... A practically unfailing love for their faith, God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, and their fellow man. I've known more Mormons than I can count that would give you the shirt off their back without a moment's thought or hesitation. This is just from my experience, but most Mormon's I've ever met were the best representation of what a Christian is supposed to be...

And yes, I did leave the Church, but my reasonings weren't against the religion, but the belief system. If I had been able to accept Christianity itself, I'da stayed Mormon.

So how does all of this show that they're not Christian? Believing that man has the potential to be like God doesn't mean that they don't believe in Christ, etc. What exactly is your definition of a "Christian?"


Only those who believe exactly as he does on all things. One can't help but wonder, based on the holier-than-thou tone of his post, if he thinks that anyone other than himself qualifies. I'm not Mormon, but I don't dondemn them or anyone else as heathens or heretics.

Mormons and JWs both believe in the God of Abraham, accept Jesus Christ as their savior, and attempt to follow his teachings. Therefore they are Christians. Whether they agree on other things with mainstream Christians or not is irrelevant.