NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/11/25/woman_charged_for_re.html

A sign of things to come. Keep your IDs on you. You'll need them.

Police State? This would be a Police State if she had just 'disappeared'. She didn't. She's allowed to fight her 'good fight'.

That is just sad,I'm glad I'm Canadian.

Yeah, what's sad is that she's dumb. Now she has to pay a shit load of court bills. She should've just shown him her ID. Which makes everyone SAFE!

That whole Ben Franklin quote, "Those who give up a some liberty to secure some freedom deserve neither liberty nor freedom" is a total fucking crock, pardon my french.

Why? Because liberty doesn't mean shit IF YOU'RE DEAD!

Yeah, what's sad is that she's dumb. Now she has to pay a shit load of court bills. She should've just shown him her ID. Which makes everyone SAFE!

That whole Ben Franklin quote, "Those who give up a some liberty to secure some freedom deserve neither liberty nor freedom" is a total fucking crock, pardon my french.

Why? Because liberty doesn't mean shit IF YOU'RE DEAD!
You, sir, are a walking dytopian nightmare just waiting to happen.

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/11/25/woman_charged_for_re.html

A sign of things to come. Keep your IDs on you. You'll need them.
I called it last year. And only a very few took me at all seriously at the time.

Welcome to your Soviet years, comrades! (those are kinda like your 'Carlsberg years', but with paperwork instead of beer)

Why is it wrong for them to request her to show her ID on a public service provided by the very government that asked her to show it? It is perfectly reasonable for them to ask you to show them your ID, and there is no excuse not to if you have it.

I don't know about you, but if I'm not driving, I don't necessarily carry my ID everywhere.

Is there a difference between refusing and not having any on you? Is it against the law to be without your ID outside your home?

You, sir, are a walking dytopian nightmare just waiting to happen.

Do you mean dystopian? And eh... yeah, I can see that...

Why is it wrong for them to request her to show her ID on a public service provided by the very government that asked her to show it? It is perfectly reasonable for them to ask you to show them your ID, and there is no excuse not to if you have it.

Cheers!

Oh, and BTW, was she supposed to show her Bus pass/ID? On government own property, under the law, you may be asked for your ID at any time. Such as a Federal Building, etc. If she was on a Government Bus, which is goverment property, that is legal. Also, if she needed to show her Bus pass, then that is also fair, because it is compliant with the regulations for riding on the bus.

Finally, if the bus is PRIVATE property, the owner of the bus company may issue whatever he/she wishes about who or what rides on his/her bus.

She refused to show ID. Which means she had it, but didn't want to show it. And there could have been a number of security-related things that prompted the ID check. There could have been a bomb threat or terrorism threat. And we really could have done without that "mother of four" shit in the middle of the article. That's just making it look like they're robbing a poor old granny.

Anyway, back on topic. She refused to show ID. When you're pulled over and asked for license and registration, you can't just say "no. I don't wanna." And when you're riding on a PUBLIC BUS, you can't NOT show a bus pass.

She was on a government-provided bus taking advantage of government transportation services. When you're a guest in someone's house, that is not how you act.

I'll have to see a few more sources before I can take this seriously.

My blasted high school just added this little "wear ID on a 'lanyard'" policy this year. I got a detention for not wearing it, dad went psycho, soccer-mom mom was happy about it. One of my teachers said next thing you know, you'll need to swipe an ID and get a retina scan to buy a Slurpee. Very scary world we live in. It all started with Pope Urban II and finished up with the Allies in World War I. They hacked up the Ottoman Empire and pissed off the Muslims. They vented their anger on Israel and when the US stepped in the way, they got hit too.

We have three options:
1. Be comformist wussies.
2. Fight in a bloody revolution.
3. Hightail(sp?) it to...somewhere else(Europe has passport checks though from time-to time).

And then we could dredge up and island and call it Ben Franklin Island. Bwahahaha.

I always carry my ID with me (meaning my Driver's License and my Student ID).

I also believe that in Germany one is actually required to provide ID if Police asks for it - which fits nicely with the requirement to actually have a "Personalausweis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Personalausweis.jpg)".

That doesn't exactly make Germany a "police state", but I can see how it conflicts with the traditional American understanding of the role of government.

While I'd usually join in any deplorement of the US, I have to say that this is by no means the end of democracy. My country has had that for long, and it's not a Stalinist state. Well, not anymore (nuance), but this issue has had nothing to do with that.

While I'd usually join in any deplorement of the US, I have to say that this is by no means the end of democracy. My country has had that for long, and it's not a Stalinist state. Well, not anymore (nuance), but this issue has had nothing to do with that.
Exactly.

Every Bush-basher is SO quick to say "OMG US POLISE STAIT OFFISHIAL OMGZ" when even the smallest thing happens, because they want everybody to rise up, take arms and lead a bloody revolt against the oppressive US government that is fighting for the freedom of oppressed peoples in Iraq. After that, they'll all join hands and lead a peace rally. But first comes the hypocrisy and the bloody revolution. (Not targeted at whoever mentioned the revolt, but I've actually had liberal friends that said that a bloody revolution would fix it, and five minutes later, talk about how violence doesn't solve anything. Ehh... solved World War II.)

And when you're riding on a PUBLIC BUS, you can't NOT show a bus pass.

You mean, in the States you can't just pay for a bus ride with some change? You must have a bus pass to ride?

Edit: So the bus pass pic in the article was for real? Your photograph is on it and everything? Here in BC, only the annual bus passes have names, and maybe pictures on them. The monthly passes just have the year and the date and something scenic looking.

You mean, in the States you can't just pay for a bus ride with some change? You must have a bus pass to ride?
It used to be that you could just drop in a toll. That's starting to change now in some cities. They're streamlining it for efficiency, and it's a tad bit faster than holding up a bus by counting out change.

It used to be that you could just drop in a toll. That's starting to change now in some cities. They're streamlining it for efficiency, and it's a tad bit faster than holding up a bus by counting out change.

But what about people who only ride occasionally? What about tourists and other out-of-towners? They wouldn't have annual bus passes.

But what about people who only ride occasionally? What about tourists and other out-of-towners? They wouldn't have annual bus passes.
I'm not sure how that would work. I've never used a bus, I just drive everywhere.

Exactly.

Every Bush-basher is SO quick to say "OMG US POLISE STAIT OFFISHIAL OMGZ" when even the smallest thing happens, because they want everybody to rise up, take arms and lead a bloody revolt against the oppressive US government that is fighting for the freedom of oppressed peoples in Iraq. After that, they'll all join hands and lead a peace rally. But first comes the hypocrisy and the bloody revolution. (Not targeted at whoever mentioned the revolt, but I've actually had liberal friends that said that a bloody revolution would fix it, and five minutes later, talk about how violence doesn't solve anything. Ehh... solved World War II.)

Violence solves many things. I can't really list them all though...too many. As a certain issue on NS says, we're attacking the symptom not the disease. People are powder kegs, and if they aren't happy they "take up arms" in one way or another.

I'm not really suggesting revolution by the way, but if it came to that...

Here in Milwaukee County you still can pay by cash. In fact today, I was out of bus tickets, so I just payed with change all day today :) The only passes here that have pictures and such on it are the Commuter Passes which you can only get via your employer.

Every ****-****** is SO quick to say "OMG US POLISE STAIT OFFISHIAL OMGZ" when even the smallest thing happens, because they want everybody to rise up, take arms and lead a bloody revolt against the oppressive US government that is fighting for the freedom of oppressed peoples in Iraq.
Ahh, the biting sting of sarcasm. But pray, tell me, what is the current admin doing to fight oppression in America? Ahhhhh. Thought so.

What a crock of shit! "US officially a police state" my ass! You people are impossible! Jeeze.

Ahh, the biting sting of sarcasm. But pray, tell me, what is the current admin doing to fight oppression in America? Ahhhhh. Thought so.

Trying to allow the bible to be taught in schools, since the liberals are oppressing a religious person's right to practice religion.

They're trying to get smut like that old hag Janet Jackson's breast off the television, because nobody wants to be oppressed by a 50 year-old titty.

The list goes on and on...

What a crock of shit! "US officially a police state" my ass! You people are impossible! Jeeze.
Actually, I must agree. It isn't official. It can't really be official. I would say we are heading that way, but it may just stop at a point. The point may be ID checks. We should keep our eyes peeled and our guns(not loaded yet) on the bed...so to speak.

That does not make this a police state,
Cuba is a police state, Committees for the defence of the revolution,
no political, economic or social rights, government organized mobs
if you protest against the government,a dictator president for life,
etc, etc, etc.

I think what alot of people are missing is that..."The bus she rides crosses the property of the Denver Federal Center, a collection of government offices such as the Veterans Administration, the U.S. Geological Survey, and part of the National Archives."

It doesn't matter if it was a public or private bus. It was a bus crossing through a federal office complex.

Of course, you actually had to click through 3 different links to find this out.

Maybe we should define what a Police State is?

Wiki says:
A police state is a totalitarian state regulated by secret police; the police exercise power on behalf of the executive and the conduct of the police cannot be effectively challenged. In such regimes there is no significant distinction between the law and the will of the executive; there is no rule of law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_State

and Dictionary.com says:
A state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the people, especially by means of a secret police force.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=police%20state

So I guess there is no real argument - the US is not a police state at the moment, and it will take a while yet before it becomes one.

Ahh, the biting sting of sarcasm. But pray, tell me, what is the current admin doing to fight oppression in America? Ahhhhh. Thought so.
Too impatient to allow me to respond? Too eager to claim a false victory? Thought so.

Maybe we should define what a Police State is?

Wiki says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_State

and Dictionary.com says:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=police%20state

So I guess there is no real argument - the US is not a police state at the moment, and it will take a while yet before it becomes one.

Thank you Neu Leonstein for proving my point on Cuba.

In the states you need an ID to use the public transit system? Wow, the US is officially a Silly State.:rolleyes:

I've never heard of anyone so retarded as to not just give a quick flash of the ID. It's not like the man came in and said, "IN THE NAME OF THE SUPREME OVERLORD, HAND OVER THY IDENTIFCATIONS!" He probably came on and said, "I need a quick ID check, if I could just see everyone's ID." It's not a big deal. I understand your fear of a Police state, but a security gaurd asking for ID isn't going to be where it starts, dipshits.

She should've just handed it over, just like any time you're pulled over in your car. It's not a big deal, for Christ's sake.

Like for christ sakes! Why on earth you need to show your ID in order to use public transit?

Was it ever specified if she was being denied access to the bus services if she didn't have it? No, she just refused to show ID.

Like for christ sakes! Why on earth you need to show your ID in order to use public transit?

Because they were going through government property. It's how it is

I'm A good person to comment on this: I am a bouncer in a night club. I have no legal police powers, but if I ask you to produce your identification, and you dont, or wont, you get to leave.

I cant legally restrain you from leaving, and I am certainly not the sort that would hurt you in "assisting you in departure", but the point is, even in a private establishment, and I can control your access based on your cooperation.

Am I trampling your rights? No. Showing your identification is an affirmation of your rights. Do it with pride. "See? See? this shows that I have the right to be here, now fuck off!" Just dont talk like that to me. Please. Or a cop!

Thank you Neu Leonstein for proving my point on Cuba.
Mmmh...you're welcome? :confused:

This is probably going to come off as a flame, and it probably is, but damn... you guys are really starting to get pretty fucking pathetic. Talk about a goddamn vacation from reality people. I mean really, can you get anymore contrived and asinine then a title like "US Officially a Police State" over THIS fucking garbage?!? Not one of you has even the vaguest idea of what oppression really is, what an overbearing government and a police state really is. :rolleyes:

It's all more or less been said. She was on a government property, operating on a government run service, crossing government owned land; her getting asked is about the equivalent of carding someone wandering around the fucking Pentagon!

Yeah, yeah… give me your fucking snide dismissal. Persist in your idiotic bullshit.

Thank you Ekland. That needed to be said

I'd like to point out that after clicking a few links, it states that SHE HAD SHOWN HER ID. BEFORE! The first time she rode the bus, they asked for her ID. and she complied. Then she went home, and thought "fuck them, I don't have to show my ID." and PURPOSEFULLY went the next day with the intent of refusing!

They should have tazered her dumb hippy protesting ass. I would have payed to see it!

Yeah, what's sad is that she's dumb. Now she has to pay a shit load of court bills. She should've just shown him her ID. Which makes everyone SAFE!

That whole Ben Franklin quote, "Those who give up a some liberty to secure some freedom deserve neither liberty nor freedom" is a total fucking crock, pardon my french.

Why? Because liberty doesn't mean shit IF YOU'RE DEAD!

I'd argue that life doesn't mean shit if you don't have liberty.

She refused to show ID. Which means she had it, but didn't want to show it. And there could have been a number of security-related things that prompted the ID check. There could have been a bomb threat or terrorism threat. And we really could have done without that "mother of four" shit in the middle of the article. That's just making it look like they're robbing a poor old granny.

Anyway, back on topic. She refused to show ID. When you're pulled over and asked for license and registration, you can't just say "no. I don't wanna." And when you're riding on a PUBLIC BUS, you can't NOT show a bus pass.

She was on a government-provided bus taking advantage of government transportation services. When you're a guest in someone's house, that is not how you act.

I'll have to see a few more sources before I can take this seriously.

Your car comparison is flawed. You need to have a licence to drive a car. An officer asking for it is making you prove you are authorized to drive your car. You don't need an ID to ride a bus.

She pays taxes, she owes the gov nothing more. The "you owe the gov obidience because they give you roads and police" thing is bullshit. I pay taxes, that pays for roads and firemen and cops, I owe the government nothing more.

While I'd usually join in any deplorement of the US, I have to say that this is by no means the end of democracy. My country has had that for long, and it's not a Stalinist state. Well, not anymore (nuance), but this issue has had nothing to do with that.


Of course it's not the end of democracy, and of course this doesn't make the US a police state. But it is the gov oversteping it's limits. At least at first glance.

The biased article doesn't include a reason for the ID check, so we have no way of knowing if it was justified.

You mean, in the States you can't just pay for a bus ride with some change? You must have a bus pass to ride?

Edit: So the bus pass pic in the article was for real? Your photograph is on it and everything? Here in BC, only the annual bus passes have names, and maybe pictures on them. The monthly passes just have the year and the date and something scenic looking.

here in Maryland, you can pay with cash. Or get punchcards, but those don't have your picture on them.


What a crock of shit! "US officially a police state" my ass! You people are impossible! Jeeze.

I gatta agree

Trying to allow the bible to be taught in schools, since the liberals are oppressing a religious person's right to practice religion.

They're trying to get smut like that old hag Janet Jackson's breast off the television, because nobody wants to be oppressed by a 50 year-old titty.

The list goes on and on...

Liberals don't want to take away your right to practice religion, they want to stop you from teaching in schools that one religion is above another. That's what freedom of religion is, the gov not sponcering any spacific religion.

Cencorship is opression.

If you were being sarcastic, sorry.


her getting asked is about the equivalent of carding someone wandering around the fucking Pentagon!

This sentence is asanine. I'm sure there were no military secrets on a public bus.


Like I said, the article didn't specify the reason for the ID check, but if it was just a random ID check, she had every right not to show it.

On one hand, it's no big deal, this isn't the end of freedom, get over it.

On the other hand, she had every right not to show an ID. You don't need a government card just to travel around. I don't owe the government that. Fuck that noise.

They should have tazered her dumb hippy protesting ass. I would have payed to see it!

What's wrong with protesting? It's a way of ensuring liberties for all, of not letting the government accully become a police state.

If anyone (gov or not) tries to wrong you, I say the right thing to do is put up a fight. Don't be a fucking doormat.

Heh.

Did anyone notice it was a SECURITY GUARD?

Fuck the security guards, they get the power to their heads and go powerhungry.

I mean sure, he just walked on the bus demanding to see ID cards, soo if he worked for the people running the buses, I guess it's justisfied, but if just imtation bacon deciding to show off then the guys a real ass.

You people really need to read the article more thoroughly! They were stopped at a security gate, ABOUT TO ENTER A GOVERNMENT FACILITY!!!!

You people really need to read the article more thoroughly! They were stopped at a security gate, ABOUT TO ENTER A GOVERNMENT FACILITY!!!!

Yeah, I just noticed that, but is it a really that big of deal to stop somone at gate.

Really... who wants to blow up lesser know agencies in the goverment. It just seems stupid to me.

And, couldn't you just have like a face recingition system so you can spot the more familiar faces?

Yeah, I just noticed that, but is it a really that big of deal to stop somone at gate.



Is it really that big a deal to show a card?

That whole Ben Franklin quote, "Those who give up a some liberty to secure some freedom deserve neither liberty nor freedom" is a total fucking crock, pardon my french.

Why? Because liberty doesn't mean shit IF YOU'RE DEAD!
And explain to me what life means if you're oppressed?

I'm A good person to comment on this: I am a bouncer in a night club. I have no legal police powers, but if I ask you to produce your identification, and you dont, or wont, you get to leave.

I cant legally restrain you from leaving, and I am certainly not the sort that would hurt you in "assisting you in departure", but the point is, even in a private establishment, and I can control your access based on your cooperation.

Am I trampling your rights? No. Showing your identification is an affirmation of your rights. Do it with pride. "See? See? this shows that I have the right to be here, now fuck off!" Just dont talk like that to me. Please. Or a cop!
The difference is an American tax payer is being denied the right to freely travel on public bus system that she has no choice in paying for. If the same American tax payer is denied access to a night club, they're not still obligated to help fund that night club.

You people really need to read the article more thoroughly! They were stopped at a security gate, ABOUT TO ENTER A GOVERNMENT FACILITY!!!!
Really? Let's actually take a look.

According to the article, the bus passes into the center. But, according to the center map, http://biology.usgs.gov/cro/dfcbrd.htm , it looks like that is a public street. The bus she was riding on was not US goverment, but Denver's bus system. http://www.rtd-denver.com/ .

Nor did she have to show a bus pass as the Denver buses do take money.

The web page for the center, here http://rmrpbs.gsa.gov/internet/PBSWebNew.nsf/0/614d81804f6ede5c87256a15006620c2?OpenDocument , notes that ID has to be presented for visitors, she was going through the center and would not have left the bus, where it would be reasonable to check ID. And, of course, the center is open to the public and not a secured facility.

And last I checked, there is no law stating that a security guard has right to demand the checking of IDs. A recent SCOTUS case notes that police can demand to see IDs and can arrest someone when the refuse, when they have reasonable cause, not because someone was riding the bus.

So on a public road, on a public bus, and in a public area, in transit though a place that is NOT a secured facility, and in transit through, she was arrested for failure to show ID, when no such law exists in the US.

No, doesn't make the US a police state, but it does violate the traditions of this nation to be able to tavel when and where one wishes without needing to identify oneself.

*snip*

Well done...*gives cookie*

I certainly don't think this makes the U.S. a police state, but I also think this woman was 100% justified in her actions.

All I can say is that this shit better not start becoming more commonplace...:mad:

eh out of all the things to get worked up over. I don't see how showing your ID interfears with your liberty. Are they somehow going to use it against you. Sure I distrust the goverment, but I simply don't understand what everyone is so worked up against.

That said it sounds like they had no cause to ask for it, but we can't tell for certain from this article. And since its not required to carry your ID everywhere with you it doesn't make sense to arrest someone for not showing it unless they arrest those for not having it as well.

I think she was really arrested for being confrontational. I mean the security guard is human like the rest of us and probably got pissed that she was giving him such a hard time. I bet if she said she didn't have it on her he would have left her alone. I don't see the point of her protest. It's not a major inconvience to show your ID.

I'm not familure with the law, but though it may not be required for her to show her ID. As far as I know, its not illegal to ask someone to show their ID even if you don't have a reason. But also as far as I know, it is wrong for her to be arrested for not showing it. You should be complaining that she was arrested for it. Not that people are asked to show their ID. I really think people are just looking for things to complain about, unless you can really explain to me why you care if someone sees your ID.

Oh and how buses work here. The frequent riders get bus passes so they just swipe. The occasional riders (such as myself) purchase tokens ahead of time so no change has to be counted, you just use a token. And tourists tend to pay cash, unless someone directs them as to where to purchase tokens. Every bus system is different. Thats just ours.

Like for christ sakes! Why on earth you need to show your ID in order to use public transit?
I'd imagine that it's more of a "tickets please" type situation, but I didn't read everything thoroughly, so I can't say for sure.

Here's some food for thought...

And this may be different state to state...but where I live...if a police officer requests to see your driver's license when the officer stops you (for whatever reason), you legally have up to 24 hours to present the license...

Why does it seem to me that, at this point, people are looking for these kind of things?

They were passing through government property. Regardless of WHAT department of the Gov't it was, and regardless of WHAT KIND OF STREET IT WAS, they have the right to stop a bus at a SECURITY GATE and ID the passengers. Why? Take a look at what's going on in the middle east, with the security checkpoint carbombings and such.

Terrorists have a metric fuckton of reasons to do the same thing here in America, and the government is merely asking you for an ID, and you're going batshit crazy? And you think that the US is becoming a police state, for making sure that you don't get your ignorant, ungrateful asses blown off? You think that Bush is immediately going to imprison anyone who doesn't agree with him?

That's a record long-jump to a conclusion.

You are so spoiled with your liberties here in America (WE ALL ARE) that you have not the slightest clue what oppression is. Imagine having your fingers (or worse) cut off for voting in an election. Imagine being tortured endlessly and murdered for losing in the olympics. Imagine being beaten and shot because you didn't do your best in a boxing match. That's the kind of shit Saddam pulled. He did alot worse than IDing some fucking bus passengers.

I'm wrong, it's a gate pass. Sorry about that.

The reason why she was required to show the pass was because she was entering a restricted area, namely her workplace, a federal facility. They were not asked "show your papers" like an East German ABV would do, instead it was a gate guard asking if you have permission to enter this restricted access area. It has nothing to do with riding buses around or not, it would seem that it's something that only occurs at the entrance to the federal facility. I'd imagine that they've been doing this sort of stuff since Oklahoma City.

Here's some food for thought...

And this may be different state to state...but where I live...if a police officer requests to see your driver's license when the officer stops you (for whatever reason), you legally have up to 24 hours to present the license...

Damn, I wann live there.

Anyways, from Wikipedia:

Some security officers with police powers, typically employed directly by governmental agencies, are called security police. Typically these are police whose duties primarily involve the security of a government installation, and are also a special case.

So was it a rent-a-cop or a security police?

metric fuckton
Heh.

Here's some food for thought...

And this may be different state to state...but where I live...if a police officer requests to see your driver's license when the officer stops you (for whatever reason), you legally have up to 24 hours to present the license...
Really? In Ohio if you don't have your physical drivers license on you while you are driving, then you are driving without a license, and that's guaranteed big trouble.

Really? In Ohio if you don't have your physical drivers license on you while you are driving, then you are driving without a license, and that's guaranteed big trouble.
Have you actually looked at the law? There's nothing wrong with driving with out your liscense (except it's inconvenient for both you and any officer who happens to pull you over, should that issue arise). And there's a big difference between someone driving without their liscense that they do have and someone driving unliscensed.

Well, if you can't furnish your license on the spot (it's not with you) then you are ticketed for driving without a license. You then have to show the Police Department or court, by your court date, your license that is or was valid at the time of the ticket being issued. Once that's done, that charge is out the window, but whatever you did wrong in the first place is still on the docket.

Police State? This would be a Police State if she had just 'disappeared'. She didn't. She's allowed to fight her 'good fight'.
Which makes it not a police state how?

Which makes it not a police state how?
If this WAS a police state, she would have disappeared for resisting the government. Her bullshit story wouldn't have been allowed to even be on the internet. Hell, if this was a police state, NationStates would be blocked out.

i always thought it was law that you have a form of ID on you at all times...

...Terrorists have a metric fuckton of reasons to do the same thing here in America...

I'm sorry, but could you convert that into a U.S. Customary fuckton? I'm really bad at conversions from metric.

Hehe...bad joke, I know.

They were passing through government property.
Because a public street is PUBLIC! It belongs to Denver, NOT to the federal goverment. Also, there's a lot of goverment owned property, now some areas I do see a legitmate need for the federal goverment to keep people out of. However, I dislike the notion that I may have to show my ID to pass through a national forest. A number of highways cut through those things as well, is it ok to be stopped there?

No, if she got off the bus to go to the center, I would accept that they have the right to check IDs. However, when someome is in transit through the center, when it is obvious that the bus route is going through it to provide access for people (perhaps people working there), that is not right.

Regardless of WHAT department of the Gov't it was, and regardless of WHAT KIND OF STREET IT WAS, they have the right to stop a bus at a SECURITY GATE and ID the passengers. Why? Take a look at what's going on in the middle east, with the security checkpoint carbombings and such.
And the last car bombing we had here was? Not to mention that hey, funny thing being, I doubt a terrorist would carry ID that says 'Offical Suicide Bombers ID'. Checking ID becomes pointless, again, for those in transit though the center and not stopping at.

That's a record long-jump to a conclusion.
And that's one right there. Where, in this thread, has President Bush been mentioned, except by you? We have taken exception to the denial of a long held American right, the one of travel without needing permission or identification, and YOU'RE the one going bananas and stating that we're only doing this to blaim President Bush.

I have seen too many people willing to give up rights due to the idea of terrorists or terrorism. I could trot out those tired trite sayings of 'if we change our lives, they have won', but I don't see terrorism being an issue. The issue is one of privacy. If I want to move about the nation without the goverment knowing about it, I should be able to do so. They don't need to know that I ride a bus everyday or which way I go.

You are so spoiled with your liberties here in America (WE ALL ARE) that you have not the slightest clue what oppression is. Imagine having your fingers (or worse) cut off for voting in an election. Imagine being tortured endlessly and murdered for losing in the olympics. Imagine being beaten and shot because you didn't do your best in a boxing match. That's the kind of shit Saddam pulled. He did alot worse than IDing some fucking bus passengers.
Ah yes, somehow protesting against an arrest in Denver is somehow linked to the Iraq war; and you accuse us of making great leaps to conclusions? In any case, your argument says nothing. It is like those who say, "Well, the US never ran death camps, so putting Japanese-Americans in consentration camps in WWII was ok". The point isn't that Nazi Germany's camps were worse, the point is that it was wrong to do so in the first place.

Or, as the teacher in me says, 'I'm talking about what you did, not what they were doing right now'. :D

ok lets point out a few facts about US law and identification
The constitution doesn't say anything about providing ID by request to an officer or other government official.
Congress however was able to pass a law that says while entering federal (i.e. government owned and operated) property, all civilians are required to present ID.
Now that request can come from ANYONE working in an official capacity for the goverment ie police officer, army personal, secret services or a glorified rent a cop.
This bus was about to enter federal property and for crying out loud this woman was working for the DHS!!!! she has to be checked to enter her place of work and the road leading onto the building is just an extension of that.

The security officer and the subsequent police officers who requested her ID had every right to ask for it or to tell her to get off the bus. No doubt she started screaming how this was her right etc but it is simple this country has laws and regardless of if you agree with them or not you are expected to obey them if you dont like them vote someone into power who will change them or better still run for office yourself :)

There seems to be some discrepency between weather or not she was on federal gov property when it happened. NERVUN is saying it was a public street, property of Denver, while others are saying it was gov property. How can either side substantiate this?

You mean, in the States you can't just pay for a bus ride with some change? You must have a bus pass to ride?


I think their buses are run by the government rather than a company. And fairly obviously a company doenst care who rides the bus as long as they get some cash.


Also, it seems she was entering a restricted area, so she got what was coming to her for taking the piss like that.

Because a public street is PUBLIC! It belongs to Denver, NOT to the federal goverment. Also, there's a lot of goverment owned property, now some areas I do see a legitmate need for the federal goverment to keep people out of. However, I dislike the notion that I may have to show my ID to pass through a national forest. A number of highways cut through those things as well, is it ok to be stopped there?

No, if she got off the bus to go to the center, I would accept that they have the right to check IDs. However, when someome is in transit through the center, when it is obvious that the bus route is going through it to provide access for people (perhaps people working there), that is not right.


And the last car bombing we had here was? Not to mention that hey, funny thing being, I doubt a terrorist would carry ID that says 'Offical Suicide Bombers ID'. Checking ID becomes pointless, again, for those in transit though the center and not stopping at.


And that's one right there. Where, in this thread, has President Bush been mentioned, except by you? We have taken exception to the denial of a long held American right, the one of travel without needing permission or identification, and YOU'RE the one going bananas and stating that we're only doing this to blaim President Bush.

I have seen too many people willing to give up rights due to the idea of terrorists or terrorism. I could trot out those tired trite sayings of 'if we change our lives, they have won', but I don't see terrorism being an issue. The issue is one of privacy. If I want to move about the nation without the goverment knowing about it, I should be able to do so. They don't need to know that I ride a bus everyday or which way I go.


Ah yes, somehow protesting against an arrest in Denver is somehow linked to the Iraq war; and you accuse us of making great leaps to conclusions? In any case, your argument says nothing. It is like those who say, "Well, the US never ran death camps, so putting Japanese-Americans in consentration camps in WWII was ok". The point isn't that Nazi Germany's camps were worse, the point is that it was wrong to do so in the first place.

Or, as the teacher in me says, 'I'm talking about what you did, not what they were doing right now'. :D

Where in that post did I mention the Iraq war? ALL i mentioned was a police state, and in a police state, the GOVERNMENT controls your rights, few they may be. That's what Iraq was under Saddam, in addition to a dictatorship. That is NOT what the US is becoming, where you can actually talk about this kind of shit. All I'm saying is that Americans have no reason, AT ALL, to whine and complain about becoming a police state, when they are living in what is considered by most to be the most free nation in the world. You know what I think? I think this massive debate is going on just because their sorry-ass presidential candidate wasn't elected. Yeah, I said it. You and I both know that if John Kerry would have won, different people would be talking about this. Sure, it would be the other side of the political spectrum, but people would still be talking about it. That, my friend, is why this debate is going on, and that is why I'm dropping out of it, because it's all just somebody looking to justify their existance or get their way. This bullshit story has been debunked. There's no point in talking about it, now I'm gonna go munch on some cold turkey. *Gobble*

People will do whatever they can to show flaws in someone or something, even if it means using stupid stories that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

EDIT: Well this thread has been completely debunked now, so you can stop whining about how it was a public street. She was entering a government facility - she WORKS at a government facility - and by law, when you enter a government facility, they can and most likely WILL ask you for identification - ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU WORK THERE!

There seems to be some discrepency between weather or not she was on federal gov property when it happened. NERVUN is saying it was a public street, property of Denver, while others are saying it was gov property. How can either side substantiate this?
You have to click a few links on that page to see an article covering that story, and that article it mentions that she works at a government facility, and she was going to work, and the bus stopped at a government checkpoint outside a government facility. Coincidence?

If this WAS a police state, she would have disappeared for resisting the government. Her bullshit story wouldn't have been allowed to even be on the internet. Hell, if this was a police state, NationStates would be blocked out.
There have been people who have disappeared. The government doesn't have the balls yet to make people who don't look foreign disappear. Every step we take towards "safety" over "liberty" solidifies us being a police state. There is no reason to require a person to randomly show you their ID - not while they are riding on public transportation or walking down the street. There is even less of a reason to arrest them for not showing it to you.

There have been people who have disappeared. The government doesn't have the balls yet to make people who don't look foreign disappear. Every step we take towards "safety" over "liberty" solidifies us being a police state. There is no reason to require a person to randomly show you their ID - not while they are riding on public transportation or walking down the street. There is even less of a reason to arrest them for not showing it to you.
Mkay. Can I see sources with evidence of disappearances related to the government?

I've never heard of anyone so retarded as to not just give a quick flash of the ID. It's not like the man came in and said, "IN THE NAME OF THE SUPREME OVERLORD, HAND OVER THY IDENTIFCATIONS!" He probably came on and said, "I need a quick ID check, if I could just see everyone's ID." It's not a big deal. I understand your fear of a Police state, but a security gaurd asking for ID isn't going to be where it starts, dipshits.

She should've just handed it over, just like any time you're pulled over in your car. It's not a big deal, for Christ's sake.
No shit.

And explain to me what life means if you're oppressed?
Ohhh, poor BABY! You're so, like ... oppressed! How dare the big, bad ole rent-a-cop make you show your ID! Tsk! It's right there in the Constitution: "Idiots have the right to refuse to show thier ID if they feel oppressed." :rolleyes:

Ohhh, poor BABY! You're so, like ... oppressed! How dare the big, bad ole rent-a-cop make you show your ID! Tsk! It's right there in the Constitution: "Idiots have the right to refuse to show thier ID if they feel oppressed." :rolleyes:
"Help, help, I'm being repressed!" :p :D

i always thought it was law that you have a form of ID on you at all times...
It may be in some jurisdictions, but in most places I have lived, you don't have to have any form of ID on you unless you're driving, in which case you are required by law to have your driver's license with you. Not having ID is usually only a problem when you're detained by the police for questioning ( or being charged with something ). In that case, they can hold you until some identification has been provided.

"Help, help, I'm being repressed!" :p :D
ROFLMAO! [ smacks Foe Hammer upside da head! ] Stop that! Show a lil respect for the mentally challenged! :D

Mkay. Can I see sources with evidence of disappearances related to the government?
There is always the spiriting away of "terrorist" Muslims for "security reasons," and holding them for years.

ROFLMAO! [ smacks Foe Hammer upside da head! ] Stop that! Show a lil respect for the mentally challenged! :D

Wait, who are you saying is mentally challenged?

Ohhh, poor BABY! You're so, like ... oppressed! How dare the big, bad ole rent-a-cop make you show your ID! Tsk! It's right there in the Constitution: "Idiots have the right to refuse to show thier ID if they feel oppressed." :rolleyes:

The poster wasn't claiming to be oppressed, they were responding to someone else saying that safety was more important then liberty. I personally think liberty is more imortant.

While in this case it seems she was entering a gov facility, in most ordinary cercumstances, yes, I have the right not to show my ID on demand to anyone, cop or not, and I don't give a flying fuck weather or not that's in the constitution.

I have a question: If she was indeed going to work, hasn't she had this issue before? Had she always shown her ID, but this day decided she just wanted to make trouble? Was she normally not asked for ID to enter?

EDIT: Well this thread has been completely debunked now, so you can stop whining about how it was a public street. She was entering a government facility - she WORKS at a government facility - and by law, when you enter a government facility, they can and most likely WILL ask you for identification - ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU WORK THERE!
She doesn't work for the goverment, Bub. Again, she was in transit.

And I don't care who won the presidency, this is still wrong.

Wait, who are you saying is mentally challenged?
Probably anyone who disagrees with him.

Lol

She doesn't work for the goverment, Bub. Again, she was in transit.

And I don't care who won the presidency, this is still wrong.

Well, I can't show you the source stating that she works for the government, because they've taken down the links exposing the lies behind that story. But how do you know she does not work for the government? A police officer boarded the bus, which was apparently a ROUTINE THING on that bus route, and asked for IDs. She decided that one day, she didn't want to.
Source:
http://www.newwest.net/index.php/main/article/4453

Again, regardless of whether it was a public street or not, or whether she was a government worker or not, when you enter the premises of a government complex, you are required by law to show ID.

EVEN IF there have been no carbombings or bus bombings in the US, it's still a good idea to check IDs. One thing we learned from 9/11 is that just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it's not on the way.

Again, regardless of whether it was a public street or not, or whether she was a government worker or not, when you enter the premises of a government complex, you are required by law to show ID.


How hard must you try to twist the defnitions of premises and complex to make it mean the same as "vehicle."

Also I thought in America public transport was run by private companies. Guess I was wrong, learn something everyday, huh?

All I'm saying is that [b]Americans have no reason, AT ALL, to whine and complain about becoming a police state, when they are living in what is considered by most to be the most free nation in the world
Considered by who? I certainly dont consider the US is more free than my country. Let me guess, you also believe that old cliche about the 'greatest justice system'.....:D

How hard must you try to twist the defnitions of premises and complex to make it mean the same as "vehicle."

Also I thought in America public transport was run by private companies. Guess I was wrong, learn something everyday, huh?
...What the hell do you expect them to do, ask the bus for it's ID?

What do guards do when you drive up to a military installation? They ID everyone in the vehicle. Why? Security. Doesn't matter if you're heading in or just passing through. They card you. That's just how it works, and it works that way for the safety of the people. Whether it was the USGS, National Archives or the fucking NSA (excuse my french, this is really starting to annoy me), the government has the right to ID you if you go onto their property in any way, shape or form... short of flying over it in an airplane... but they still ID you at the airport. ;)

Besides, the ID check that took place was a routine occurance on that bus route, and NOBODY has groaned about it until she started getting defensive and refused to do something so minor as to show the officer her ID.

...What the hell do you expect them to do, ask the bus for it's ID?
I dont see any point in them asking for id from either the passangers or the bus.

What do guards do when you drive up to a military installation?
A military installation? If it's that friggen secure, seems like a stupid place for a bus route....

They ID everyone in the vehicle. Why? Security. Doesn't matter if you're heading in or just passing through. They card you.
No they dont. We know this because the women concerned pretended to not have her id for a few trips and was allowed to carry on without further interference. So having no id was no problem which proves that the id checks were not about security at all.

That's just how it works, and it works that way for the safety of the people.
No one's safety was increased by the checks, and no one's safety was increased by this women's arrest. I dont believe it had anything to do with increasing safety.

Besides, the ID check that took place was a routine occurance on that bus route, and NOBODY has groaned about it until she started getting defensive and refused to do something so minor as to show the officer her ID.
No black people refused to move from their seats to let white folk sit down before Rosa Parks made her stand by refusing to stand.:rolleyes:

I should start counting the reasons why I'm leaving the US.

I dont see any point in them asking for id from either the passangers or the bus.


A military installation? If it's that friggen secure, seems like a stupid place for a bus route....


No they dont. We know this because the women concerned pretended to not have her id for a few trips and was allowed to carry on without further interference. So having no id was no problem which proves that the id checks were not about security at all.


No one's safety was increased by the checks, and no one's safety was increased by this women's arrest. I dont believe it had anything to do with increasing safety.


No black people refused to move from their seats to let white folk sit down before Rosa Parks made her stand by refusing to stand.:rolleyes:
How DARE you even consider comparing this to Rosa Parks' stand for civil rights. This is NO WHERE CLOSE to Mrs. Parks' stand. This is just a stupid woman looking for trouble.

And how the hell would ID checks not increase security? How the hell would making sure that there are no weapons or terrorists aboard a bus not make something more secure? At this point, you people are just repeating you logically-challenged arguments and I'm repeating my answers. I see no point in anyone making a mockery over something as stupid as not taking three seconds to pull out a driver's license, or a bus pass, or SOMETHING.

I'm done with this conversation, because all you people are doing is bringing it around in a complete loop. This will go on forever. If you really feel the need to have a pointless debate, talk to me on IRC.

I should start counting the reasons why I'm leaving the US.
What, is the Eddie Bauer catalog late again? What reasons do you have for leaving the US? The government wants to see something that THEY GAVE YOU? You didn't get who you want when you voted? Buh-bye. If you really want to leave America, leave. Nobody's gonna stop you, and that's what I love about this place.

How the hell would making sure that there are no weapons or terrorists aboard a bus not make something more secure?
Do ID cards state whether a person is a terrorist or carrying a weapon on them now? I guess it must just be the state you live in.

How DARE you even consider comparing this to Rosa Parks' stand for civil rights. This is NO WHERE CLOSE to Mrs. Parks' stand. This is just a stupid woman looking for trouble.

And how the hell would ID checks not increase security? How the hell would making sure that there are no weapons or terrorists aboard a bus not make something more secure? At this point, you people are just repeating you logically-challenged arguments and I'm repeating my answers. I see no point in anyone making a mockery over something as stupid as not taking three seconds to pull out a driver's license, or a bus pass, or SOMETHING.

I'm done with this conversation, because all you people are doing is bringing it around in a complete loop. This will go on forever. If you really feel the need to have a pointless debate, talk to me on IRC.

Uh this is what Political Forums are for. Endless debate about religion, politics and philosophy. It's just an endless loop and I'm glad I'm a part of it.

How DARE you even consider comparing this to Rosa Parks' stand for civil rights. This is NO WHERE CLOSE to Mrs. Parks' stand. This is just a stupid woman looking for trouble.
What has intelligence got to do with it? Looking for trouble and being uppity, looking to assert one's reasonable rights; looking for trouble and being uppity, looking to take a load of one's feet and assert one's reasonable rights....
call it what you will. The id check was clearly unnecessary. They appeared to have no list that indicated who shouldnt go through this area that was so secure it was on a public bus route. They apparently didnt look at id's long enough to read names. They didnt take any notes of the names they read on ids. When people claimed to have no id, they were not made to get off the bus or arrested.

And how the hell would ID checks not increase security?
Most ingeniously. When they (the bad guys) are asked if they have id, instead of saying
'oh yes, help me allah, for I am caught by these insanely clever Americans with their fool-proof net of crime catching, terrorist fighting, apple pie baking good security...

I have an id that distinctly says "insane jihadist", and I have graffitied "I will kill many Americans" all over it.',
they say
'no.'

Of course this is only if they are stupid, amatuerish 'terrorist'. All the 'good ones' (bad ones from our point of view) are so fiendish that they (like your average desperate underage drinker) get fake id.....can you imagine, the genius of them, they're at least as clever as your average booze loving and resourceful American teenager.....;)

'How the hell would making sure that there are no weapons or terrorists aboard a bus not make something more secure?
How the hell would glancing at ids of people who can be bothered admitting they have any, without taking note of the names, without having any particular descriptions that they are looking for (not everyone on the bus could fit the description of a particular suspect)? What may I ask do you think would have stopped a terrorist if one were aboard the bus? They either have id that doesnt indicate they are a terrorist, and they hand it over to be glanced at, or they say 'no' and are allowed to continue on the bus without further incident.

At this point, you people are just repeating you logically-challenged arguments and I'm repeating my answers.
I have not kept track of which posts are yours, but I do know I've not come across any argument that convinces me that the id checks were in any way useful (in fact they seem counter-productive to me) as they are described as having been carried out.
Nor am I convinced that the arrest served the public interest. In fact that too seemed counter-productive to me.

I see no point in anyone making a mockery over something as stupid as not taking three seconds to pull out a driver's license, or a bus pass, or SOMETHING.
The point is it the id check was a mockery no matter what course of action the passangers took.

As I understand it, Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of the State of Nevada, 03-5554 (http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZO.html) affirms that the police can stop you and ask you for ID. More background can be found here: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4580000/

As I understand it, Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of the State of Nevada, 03-5554 (http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZO.html) affirms that the police can stop you and ask you for ID. More background can be found here: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4580000/

If the officer has reasonable suspicion that something funny is going on...not just for the heck of it.

As I understand it, Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of the State of Nevada, 03-5554 (http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZO.html) affirms that the police can stop you and ask you for ID. More background can be found here: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4580000/
SCOTUS held a test of reasonable suspission in that regard, riding the bus is hardly an act that can make someone reasonably conclude that the person has commited a crime, is commiting, or will do so. Also, the Nevada law in question was that should a peace officer (not security guard) when invistigating someone reasonably suspected ask for the person's name, the person in question has to answer. They do not have to show ID, and indeed, SCOTUS upheld the decision of the Nevada Suprem Court based upon its narrow scope.