NationStates Jolt Archive


Well, I guess clean energy does work, and it's cheaper...but more has to be built.

Gymoor II The Return
26-11-2005, 01:27
http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=c88589bb-0abe-421a-007a-ec974395c5db&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf

The utility took nearly 3,000 new applications for the program after customers learned wind power is now less expensive than conventional electricity.

Windsource is now fully subscribed with a waiting list of 1,100 customers, according to Xcel.

Hmmm, you give people a choice as to where their electicity comes from...it works...and eventually the new energy source becomes cheaper.

And it happened in the real world.

Response: B-b-b-but, environmentalists want to ruin the economy!!!!!!

Obsolete businesses go out all the time, and it doesn't ruin the economy. It improves it. I'm sure the typewriter industry felt that computers and word processors would ruin the economy.
Empryia
26-11-2005, 01:32
http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=c88589bb-0abe-421a-007a-ec974395c5db&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf
The utility took nearly 3,000 new applications for the program after customers learned wind power is now less expensive than conventional electricity.

Windsource is now fully subscribed with a waiting list of 1,100 customers, according to Xcel.



Really? That's pretty cool. I hope they bring it to my area soon. The Santa Ana's produce a crap load of wind... I don't mind innovation, nor environmentalists....

I mind the tree-huggers who get in the way of progress. :D
Gymoor II The Return
26-11-2005, 01:37
Really? That's pretty cool. I hope they bring it to my area soon. The Santa Ana's produce a crap load of wind... I don't mind innovation, nor environmentalists....

I mind the tree-huggers who get in the way of progress. :D

True, the knee-jerk uber environmentalists (the sort who picket against wind turbines because a small number of birds whack into them...those birds weren't going to survive much longer anyway,) do piss me off, because their priorities are off.

Progress is good, as long as it's intelligent progress.
Deep Kimchi
26-11-2005, 01:50
http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=c88589bb-0abe-421a-007a-ec974395c5db&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf


Hmmm, you give people a choice as to where their electicity comes from...it works...and eventually the new energy source becomes cheaper.

And it happened in the real world.

Response: B-b-b-but, environmentalists want to ruin the economy!!!!!!

Obsolete businesses go out all the time, and it doesn't ruin the economy. It improves it. I'm sure the typewriter industry felt that computers and word processors would ruin the economy.

The vast majority of electrical power is not consumed by individual consumers in their homes. While alternative sources do provide enough power for them, the appetite for commercial power outstrips the ability for things like wind farms to power them.

The only current alternatives that provide power on the level, say, to power an aluminum processing plant, or a vehicle assembly line (complete with robotic presses and welders and paint dryers), are either hydroelectric (and we've got serious ecological problems with building any more of those), or nuclear (while there are safe designs now, nobody wants one in their backyard).
Empryia
26-11-2005, 01:53
or nuclear (while there are safe designs now, nobody wants one in their backyard).

Liar!

The North Koreans want one :p

Eh, Nuclear power is the best. I can't wait till the French screw up their Fusion Reactor. It'd be funny to see a huge star form right outside of Paris for a couple of seconds. (jk)

But seriously, Fusion power is the future! These idiots in the US can't get their act together. :rolleyes:

GO JAPAN! :D
Deep Kimchi
26-11-2005, 01:59
Liar!

The North Koreans want one :p

Eh, Nuclear power is the best. I can't wait till the French screw up their Fusion Reactor. It'd be funny to see a huge star form right outside of Paris for a couple of seconds. (jk)

But seriously, Fusion power is the future! These idiots in the US can't get their act together. :rolleyes:

GO JAPAN! :D

The US is not going down the Tokamak route that the French and Japanese are using.
The US is going with something that isn't a major massive engineering project that requires the construction of a campus of buildings and a huge reactor.

They are going with Magnetized Target Fusion.
http://fire.pppl.gov/fesac_dp_mtf_wurden.pdf
http://www.ofes.fusion.doe.gov/More_HTML/PDFfiles/POPpdfs/MTFAppendices.pdf

Far smaller package - no major power input to drive the startup of the reactor.

If you used explosive canisters as the driver, you could put one on an airplane.
Gymoor II The Return
26-11-2005, 02:04
The vast majority of electrical power is not consumed by individual consumers in their homes. While alternative sources do provide enough power for them, the appetite for commercial power outstrips the ability for things like wind farms to power them.

Commercial power outstrips the ability for alternative power sources as things are now, but instead of moving with the times, the Government props up old and dirty technologies with massive handouts.

Also, the thing about alternative engergies is that the idea is to not depend on one source (such as wind power,) but to diversify and to use as many different sources as possible. Solar. Geothermal. Hydroelectric. Natural gas. Nuclear (with intelligent and forward thinking waste disposal.)

The only current alternatives that provide power on the level, say, to power an aluminum processing plant, or a vehicle assembly line (complete with robotic presses and welders and paint dryers), are either hydroelectric (and we've got serious ecological problems with building any more of those), or nuclear (while there are safe designs now, nobody wants one in their backyard).

True, total dependence on hydroelectric does pose ecological problems. Which is why I again point out the need for diversification. Damming every river possible would be an ecological disaster. Intelligent picking and choosing areas where wildlife can cope and it won't mess with the water table, silt levels, etc., is fine, and it helps to lessen the overall need. Then you add wind power where it's most effective (windy areas.) What I would like to see is every skyscraper in America have a wind turbine on top. Then you add solar in areas where it makes sense.

I get pissed off when people say, "well solar can't solve all our energy needs!" Well, duh. But every little but helps. A little here. A little there. It adds up, and the government needs to be really encouraging this, instead of trying to hold back the changing of the times just because the oil companies have so much money and political influence now. By spreading the impact around intelligently, we lessen our footprint.
Deep Kimchi
26-11-2005, 02:09
Commercial power outstrips the ability for alternative power sources as things are now, but instead of moving with the times, the Government props up old and dirty technologies with massive handouts.

You can diversify all you like, and it's a good idea to get low current power from other sources. But we're already hearing from eco-freaks who say they don't want wind farms because they kill migrating birds, and from rich people on Cape Cod who don't want their million dollar view spoiled.

I've lived in a home powered by a wind turbine - it's a good idea.

But you need the ability to compensate for surge demand at very high currents - most alternatives could not satisfy that even under the most ideal scenarios.

You're limited to hydro and fission nuclear at this time for that - unless you're burning hydrocarbons.

And if everyone starts driving an electric car, you might need to double the power demand.

I'm counting on fusion - but I still bet no one wants one built in their neighborhood.
Gymoor II The Return
26-11-2005, 02:18
You can diversify all you like, and it's a good idea to get low current power from other sources. But we're already hearing from eco-freaks who say they don't want wind farms because they kill migrating birds, and from rich people on Cape Cod who don't want their million dollar view spoiled.

Well fuck those people. The fringe eco-freaks are getting in the way of solutions that would help alleviate the much worse problem of fossil fuel dependence and they don't speak for main stream environmentalists. Yes, migratory patterns are a concern...but greenhouse gasses are a much bigger concern.

I've lived in a home powered by a wind turbine - it's a good idea.

But you need the ability to compensate for surge demand at very high currents - most alternatives could not satisfy that even under the most ideal scenarios.

Yes, as things are now. But pointing that out is akin to saying "well, no one is going to give up their horse for a car. A car is loud and dirty and is slower and more expensive than a horse!" Well sure....in 1899.

You're limited to hydro and fission nuclear at this time for that - unless you're burning hydrocarbons.

Yes, if technology and widespread use of alternative energies remains as it is now.

And if everyone starts driving an electric car, you might need to double the power demand.
I'm counting on fusion - but I still bet no one wants one built in their neighborhood.

I'm counting on using a bit of everything available now and developing new technologies...such as solar satellites and wave action turbines and fusion reactors.