NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, a few weeks ago we heard about the Washington Post first reporting about installations in Eastern Europe where people were being held, and presumably exposed to questionable interrogation techniques.

And it turns out that some of the Governments in those countries were not actually told about this - and they got angry.

In response, the EU started an investigation (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4461470.stm) into this...and now the things that turn up are starting to get ridiculous.

"Rendition (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,386033,00.html)"-victims have been flown into EU countries for stopovers, without the governments being told, both in Spain (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4439036.stm) as well as in Scandinavia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4448792.stm).

And not only that...apparently the US Government was quite happy to even use the Kosovo (http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/11/25/afx2354167.html) as a playground - no government there afterall. :rolleyes:

A while ago first ideas have come up about trying to get the CIA into court (link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4619377.stm), and link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4297966.stm)) about a seperate matter, namely kidnapping people of European streets apparently without consent of the relevant authorities.

This is getting out of hand. The CIA has apparently been using Europe as a playground, completely ignoring its sovereignty.

What say you to this?

I agree. The sad thing is that this will have repercussions that will last decades. Its amazing how one administration can do so much long term damage.

Well, if Europe wants to grow a serious set of balls they can call the EU block together and work with the independent nations to cut off all trade relations with the US. That would put a sizable hole into the US economy and very clearly send the message: stop fucking on our ground.

Somehow I doubt that will happen though.

Yeah they kidnapped valuable terror suspects from Italy who had their phones tapped and were finding out a lot of info. Now they've been taken away and Italy's national security is at risk.
The CIA and the current US government have no care for anyone other than themselves, it makes me sick.

Blargistania that would be lovely to see.

sovereignty, lol

sovereignty, lol
Yeah, remember sovereignty? The thing that people use as an excuse not to comply with UN decisions?

If you're not going to make a point, shut your mouth.

The US has spied Europe in the past, mainly for industrial and commercial reasons, this is just an extention of their disrespect over us.

I say simple expose their operations. And operatives. And methods.

Offer Bin Laden life imprisonment and protection in a European Jail. One suggestion, anyway; there's little would piss the states off more than that.

What say you to this?

there is only one option. tell the u.s. to go fuck itself. it'd be nice to see europe united in not merely disliking americans and our government, but actively having officials tell us to fuck off.

i'd like to see some legal and economic consequences for this bullshit too.

I say simple expose their operations. And operatives. And methods.

exposing cia agents is pretty much a moral imperative under normal circumstance. arrest the fuckers and bring them before the icc. let's see if the americans will actually invade over it.

"I think all Europeans agree with Americans that we must fight terrorism.... but this fight has to be fought by legal means," the Associated Press quoted him as saying.

"Wrongdoing only gives ammunition to both the terrorists and their sympathisers."

Words of wisdom. I sometimes have the feeling that Bush really wants to piss the whole world off.

Seems like a bunch of angry Europeans inhabit this thread. Shouldn't you wait for evidence?

Seems like a bunch of angry Europeans inhabit this thread. Shouldn't you wait for evidence?

Who needs evidence nowadays. We'll just cook some up. :D

Who needs evidence nowadays. We'll just cook some up. :D


Then come and get us. You and whose army? hahaha

BTW who would win a trade war?

First of all, I applaud you for putting together a really good post.
(I was thinking about doing that all day long but the whole issue is so agitating I didn't know where to start, so thanks!)

What to do about it? I wish I knew.

It's gotta be something really firm, something smart that has "Greetings from Old Europe" http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/europa.gif written all over it, sending a straight message to the Gringos.

Can't really hurt them with trade without hurting ourselves, and the way the global economy is U.S.-dominated...

Well, if Europe wants to grow a serious set of balls they can call the EU block together and work with the independent nations to cut off all trade relations with the US. That would put a sizable hole into the US economy and very clearly send the message: stop fucking on our ground.

Somehow I doubt that will happen though.

Might put a hole in the EU economy as well.
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1840765,00.html
Big secret CIA bases 'unlikely'
25/11/2005 19:36 - (SA)

Bucharest - The head of a European investigation into alleged secret CIA prisons in eastern Europe said on Friday it was unlikely large clandestine detention centres have existed in the region.

But, Swiss senator Dick Marty added, prisoners may have been detained for a short period of time.

"I don't think it is possible that we have a Guantanamo Bay type prison but it is possible that there were detainees that stayed 10, 15 or 30 days," he said, without referring to any country.

Might put a hole in the EU economy as well.
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1840765,00.html
Big secret CIA bases 'unlikely'
25/11/2005 19:36 - (SA)

Bucharest - The head of a European investigation into alleged secret CIA prisons in eastern Europe said on Friday it was unlikely large clandestine detention centres have existed in the region.

But, Swiss senator Dick Marty added, prisoners may have been detained for a short period of time.

"I don't think it is possible that we have a Guantanamo Bay type prison but it is possible that there were detainees that stayed 10, 15 or 30 days," he said, without referring to any country.


Wow, no wonder these Europeeings blew a gasket, such damning charges.

Wow, no wonder these Europeeings blew a gasket, such damning charges.
You think this is some kind of joke?

This is serious business and I am more than slightly upset about it.

Might put a hole in the EU economy as well.
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1840765,00.html
Big secret CIA bases 'unlikely'
25/11/2005 19:36 - (SA)

Bucharest - The head of a European investigation into alleged secret CIA prisons in eastern Europe said on Friday it was unlikely large clandestine detention centres have existed in the region.

But, Swiss senator Dick Marty added, prisoners may have been detained for a short period of time.

"I don't think it is possible that we have a Guantanamo Bay type prison but it is possible that there were detainees that stayed 10, 15 or 30 days," he said, without referring to any country.

I have to agree with both points:
A 'trade war' would do untold damage to both blocs.
I doubt large camps exist.... HOWEVER, this does not detract from the seriousness of the principles involved here or justify the clandestine and more likely than not, illegal, activites concerned.

Yet let us not be too hasty as to jump on the 'anti America' bangwagon. I would like to point the finger at the European politicans/govts that agreed to this also- this doesn't just occur without their consent/knowledge.

Living in a state that is offically and constitutionally neutral, yet is involved in US military (and now CIA i fear) flights- this worries and angers me greatly.:mad:

I believe the reason is because the CIA are more concerned with protection of economy than world protection from actual harm.

If we blocked off trade with the states, I'm sure the whole middle east would follow, and that would piss the CIA off as the USA's economy relies a lot on oil. If it happens it should only be temporary because Americans are not evil madmen, just governed by them.

Ultimately, a total ridding of the CIA would help, I'm not really in touch with the US law system but wouldn't the FBI be just as good?

I am also upset and angered by our (Britain) forced allegiance to the whole mess up...

(...) this doesn't just occur without their consent/knowledge.(...)
See, and here is exactly where I fear it just might have.

For example, the Austrian government wasn't informed about that one particular flight that just entered Austrian airspace without approval or announcement - they don't send up interceptors for the fun of it...

And as long as nobody notices, everything is just fine, right? MAN, that kind of attitude - if it is indeed true - just pisses me off.

It worries me that this could end in tears for Europe.

See, and here is exactly where I fear it just might have.

For example, the Austrian government wasn't informed about that one particular flight that just entered Austrian airspace without approval or announcement - they don't send up interceptors for the fun of it...

And as long as nobody notices, everything is just fine, right? MAN, that kind of attitude - if it is indeed true - just pisses me off.

The overflights? yeah, I could see the "I didn't see anything, did you?" attitude.

But the camps themselves? Nah, someone had to have known. At least a minister or President or Prime Minister. That occupation of land needs authorisation..... doesn't it? :(

The overflights? yeah, I could see the "I didn't see anything, did you?" attitude.

But the camps themselves? Nah, someone had to have known. At least a minister or President or Prime Minister. That occupation of land needs authorisation..... doesn't it? :(
I don't think we're talking Guantanamo-sized camps. It would totally suffice if 3 guys rented some storage shed and set up a "nice place" for a single person.

I don't think we're talking Guantanamo-sized camps. It would totally suffice if 3 guys rented some storage shed and set up a "nice place" for a single person.
Ah, good point.

Ah, good point.
See, that is what I dread: If I can come up with such bad ideas within the blink of an eye, imagine what a secret agency has in store...

Man, that is getting scarier the longer I think about it!
And it's not good for my mood, either. :mad:

My beautiful country was nominated first and foremost. Thank you, US for making us stay out of the EU for ever. I guess I should also thank you for stirring up crap amongst Poland and its European counterparts.

Big secret CIA bases 'unlikely'
The same is said by Gil-Robles about for example Romania.

But there is the issue of, in this case, "Camp Bondsteel" in Kosovo, which seems to resemble a smaller Guantanamo - although as of yet it is not linked to the CIA. Question is though why you'd need barbed wired fences around the centre of the base and apparently installations that lead the EU-Inspector to think this may be a prison-site.
http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/11/25/afx2354167.html

And here is a link about that in German as well.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,386908,00.html
The guy says he saw people in the same orange suits they were in Camp X-Ray.

It worries me that this could end in tears for Europe.

How so?:confused:

I agree. The sad thing is that this will have repercussions that will last decades. Its amazing how one administration can do so much long term damage.

Sad and amazing indeed... :(

It's gotta be something really firm, something smart that has "Greetings from Old Europe" written all over it, sending a straight message to the Gringos.

Can't really hurt them with trade without hurting ourselves, and the way the global economy is U.S.-dominated...

Why not simply start kidnapping CIA operatives in the country and putting them in prison without legal recourse then? I don't think the Geneva convention covers proper treatment of spies and all that since spies used to be summarily executed once they had been pumped dry when caught.

And since you are well within sovereign rights to detain or expel intelligence operatives engage in activities you don't allow, the US administration hasn't got a leg to stand on if all their operatives outside their borders were rounded up and put in prison forever.

Offer Bin Laden life imprisonment and protection in a European Jail. One suggestion, anyway; there's little would piss the states off more than that.

Wait, who? You mean he's still out there, and not captured like - oh yeah! You mean the evil "head" of all terrorism in the known universe who not only turned out to not be as influential as we were led to believe, but was also never captured? God, the guy was about to curl up and die 3 years ago, and our entirely incompetent government still can't fucking find him. I love how the war's whole focus changed conveniently when he toddled off into the figurative sunset.

Definitely start detaining and questioning US operatives if they can be found. Maybe that might lead to some answers about what exactly they've been up to and who exactly authorised it.

Maybe sieze some assets. Taking their stuff always pisses countries off. Still, maybe that isn't exactly the kind of diplomatic incident the EU wants.

That kind of thing would never happen in my country without our government's knowledge. It wouldn't need to, since our government is apparently incapable of saying 'No' to our American friends.

Originally Posted by GR3AT BR1TA1N
It worries me that this could end in tears for Europe.

How so?:confused:

Well if we do something like imprison all their agents over here Bush might wana start a war.

I think I saw pictures of that Kosovo camp on the Channel 4 news (GB).

It was bad enough that they were sending people to places like Syria deliberately for torture, and apparently the secret service of Britain had a lot to do with that :(

Definitely start detaining and questioning US operatives if they can be found. Maybe that might lead to some answers about what exactly they've been up to and who exactly authorised it.

Maybe sieze some assets. Taking their stuff always pisses country's off. Still, maybe that isn't exactly the kind of diplomatic incident the EU wants.

That kind of thing would never happen in my country without our government's knowledge. It wouldn't need to, since our government is apparently incapable of saying 'No' to our American friends.

As much as I love Australians, I don't think your government is capable of saying no to anyone :/

Well if we do something like imprison all their agents over here Bush might wana start a war.


Yes, you're right. Where would he invade, you reckon?

Well if we do something like imprison all their agents over here Bush might wana start a war.

He'd never be able to start it though. Because if he tried to sell it to congress, he'd have to tell the world that the people being imprisoned were actually US citizens, which will lend credence to the accusation that they are spies. More likely then not, they'll just cut their losses and try again. I wouldn't put abandoning compromised agents above the CIA.

As much as I love Australians, I don't think your government is capable of saying no to anyone :/

Hey, that's not true. I'm sure we've said 'No' to New Zealand once. Probably. And our government is always saying "No, Great Master Bush, we won't disobey you.", though that's not really the same thing.

Some more information from Der Spiegel (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,386824,00.html):

On Tuesday, the Berliner Zeitung reported that American airbases in Germany had been used as pit stops for at least six secret flights (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,386338,00.html), including the two most high-profile missions in the unfolding story of so-called "extraordinary renditions." For some time it's been suspected that a high-profile terrorist named Abu Omar -- spirited off the streets of Milan by CIA agents in early 2003, according to criminal charges in an Italian court -- was transferred from one plane to another at the Ramstein base, en route to Cairo. This week the Berlin paper reported that a Hercules C-130 landed at Frankfurt around the same time, refuelled, and took off for Baku, Azerbaijan. That flight led to an official complaint from Vienna after it showed up unexpectedly on Austrian radar.

German officials assumed this rash of flights had ended; but on Friday the business daily Handelsblatt quotes a U.S. intelligence source claiming that "nothing has changed." Handelsblatt adds that American intelligence sources have also confirmed the existence of two secret prisons in Romania and Poland, where suspected terrorists were interrogated by CIA agents. (EU investigators are looking for satellite pictures of those camps.) "Similar 'black sites' reportedly exist in other European countries," writes the paper.

According to the ARD, it seems like a German security agency (Behörde?) knew about the flights (article here (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,386915,00.html), it's in German though)

Why not simply start kidnapping CIA operatives in the country and putting them in prison without legal recourse then?
Historically, that's happened before.

It's gotta be something really firm, something smart that has "Greetings from Old Europe" http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/europa.gif written all over it, sending a straight message to the Gringos.

To paraphrase King Richard from "Men in tights":

Henceforth all the toilets in Europe shall be known as "Americans".

Or even better: gotta go to the US !

To paraphrase King Richard from "Men in tights":

Henceforth all the toilets in Europe shall be known as "Americans"


psst...ewseeans...ok?

psst...ewseeans...ok?

Not according to Eutrusca.
(and it does not sound nice either... though US-hole would work...)

http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/europa.gif

Finally, our foreign minister doing something right. I had not expected this of my country, but it is a pleasant surprise that we are standing up:

Foreign Minister Bot Warns US On Human Rights
THE HAGUE, 25/11/05 - If the Americans "continue to beat about the bush" on reports on CIA prisons, this could have consequences for the Dutch contribution to new military missions, said Foreign Minister Ben Bot during yesterday's Lower House debate on his budget.

"The United States must not play hide-and-seek. Sooner or later, it will come out anyway," said Bot on the EU's request for clarification on the alleged CIA prisons. Bot also said the Americans "have sought out the boundaries" of what is permissible in the fight against terrorism.

Bot declined to say at what stage the Netherlands might no longer want to collaborate with the US. "This remains a weighing-up of the interests of the fight against terrorism on the one hand and respect for human rights on the other."

Bot added: "We must not now say definitively: there lies the point beyond which we will not go. We are involved in operations with the Americans; we will carry on with these and we put the emphasis on proper treatment of prisoners and compliance with the Geneva Conventions."

The Netherlands will demand from its NATO partners in Afghanistan and from Afghan President Karzai that prisoners are treated according to humanitarian war law. Bot wants to enshrine agreements in a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU). This is an important condition for making a decision on the mission in Uruzgan, said Bot.

The cabinet is likely to decide on Friday next week whether to send 1,100 soldiers to the south Afghan province of Uruzgan. Bot said no promises have yet been made within NATO. The risks are still being discussed with the British, Canadians and Americans; these are high, according to the Dutch military intelligence service MIVD.

The conservatives (VVD) had pressed Bot on Wednesday to raise the alarm more forcefully with the US government on human rights violations. The agreements Bot now wants to make with the allies within the ISAF international security force in Afghanistan are new. Until now, the cabinet has never received guarantees from the US on the treatment of so-called 'illegal fighters' such as Taliban, who the Americans claim do not come under the Geneva Conventions.

Bot wants assurances from Karzai that Afghan prisoners handed over by the Dutch to local authorities will not be given the death penalty. He also wants there to be a "reasonable chance" that the Uruzgan mission could in two years contribute towards stabilisation, a legal system, an operational local government, a safe environment for citizens and reconstruction of the region.

War on Terror is all fine and dandy, but not if the US abuses the Human Rights it claims to protect. The Netherlands has always been a loyal ally of the United States, but there are limits to what even our current centre-right government is willing to go along with.

Well, a few weeks ago we heard about the Washington Post first reporting about installations in Eastern Europe where people were being held, and presumably exposed to questionable interrogation techniques.

And it turns out that some of the Governments in those countries were not actually told about this - and they got angry.

In response, the EU started an investigation (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4461470.stm) into this...and now the things that turn up are starting to get ridiculous.

"Rendition (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,386033,00.html)"-victims have been flown into EU countries for stopovers, without the governments being told, both in Spain (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4439036.stm) as well as in Scandinavia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4448792.stm).

And not only that...apparently the US Government was quite happy to even use the Kosovo (http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/11/25/afx2354167.html) as a playground - no government there afterall. :rolleyes:

A while ago first ideas have come up about trying to get the CIA into court (link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4619377.stm), and link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4297966.stm)) about a seperate matter, namely kidnapping people of European streets apparently without consent of the relevant authorities.

This is getting out of hand. The CIA has apparently been using Europe as a playground, completely ignoring its sovereignty.

What say you to this?

At the risk of sounding like a simpleton, Isay let the investigation run its course. If the allegations are true, then let the ICJ and the UNSC take action.

Historically, that's happened before.

Well then, its time to step up the frequency of such acts. I imagine that the CIA would have to be much more cooperative with sovereign governments if they want to do things like this if they start losing operatives on a much higher scale when they go over their heads.

Well then, its time to step up the frequency of such acts. I imagine that the CIA would have to be much more cooperative with sovereign governments if they want to do things like this if they start losing operatives on a much higher scale when they go over their heads.

Generally, a lot of governments overlook this sort of thing, unless it becomes publicized.

Take the Lillehammer incident by Mossad agents as an example. European governments tolerated having Palestinians being assassinated all over Europe as long as Mossad didn't make any mistakes. But when they made mistakes, they got nailed for it.

In addition to the newspaper article I posted on the previous page, I thought a cartoon from a popular Dutch daily might be fun.

Header: "Ally"

Bush is saying:

"He doesn't do anything...
... at home."

http://home.wanadoo.nl/politiekeprentenvantom/prenten/act_nov_05/bondgenoot241105.jpg

Great, I wonder if they are any of those sites in Australia. :eek:
Maybe they are called Immigration Centers! :p

Well then, its time to step up the frequency of such acts. I imagine that the CIA would have to be much more cooperative with sovereign governments if they want to do things like this if they start losing operatives on a much higher scale when they go over their heads.

And public opinion and, in the end, the cooperation of European goverments as well.

After all, why should we send troops to Afghanistan if the people we find end up getting tortured? Cooperating with the U.S. if it leads to people being put in torture camps would be highly immoral. If the U.S. isn't open about this thing I am all for saying no to the Uruzgan mission and new contributions to Iraq or other places - and it would appear the Dutch government feels the same way now.

Why not simply start kidnapping CIA operatives in the country and putting them in prison without legal recourse then? I don't think the Geneva convention covers proper treatment of spies and all that since spies used to be summarily executed once they had been pumped dry when caught.
And since you are well within sovereign rights to detain or expel intelligence operatives engage in activities you don't allow, the US administration hasn't got a leg to stand on if all their operatives outside their borders were rounded up and put in prison forever.
Actually, that would make us behave as despicable as those we criticize here. A better approach would be to start a full scale investigation, all according to laws and procedures. Interestingly enough, it already is a crime if US detainees were brought into the country against their will - if only to refuel the plane.
The Zweibrücken district attourney has already started an investigation on the basis of "wrongful deprivation of personal liberty", "coercion" and "kidnapping".
Similar things have been done in Italy where an arrest warrent for 13 CIA operatives has been issued.
(sorry, German: http://www.swr.de/nachrichten/rp/-/id=1682/nid=1682/did=787990/1abahm6/ )

Definitely start detaining and questioning US operatives if they can be found. Maybe that might lead to some answers about what exactly they've been up to and who exactly authorised it.

Maybe sieze some assets. Taking their stuff always pisses countries off. Still, maybe that isn't exactly the kind of diplomatic incident the EU wants.

That kind of thing would never happen in my country without our government's knowledge. It wouldn't need to, since our government is apparently incapable of saying 'No' to our American friends.
Shutting down their airbases would definitely hurt them more - but I believe that is out of the question with NATO treaties and such. But it would definitely send a strong message accross the Atlantic. And interrupt all logistics concerning the Middle East, that's for sure.
Still don't know if that's the way to go, to be honest.

@ Knootoss: Glad we agree on this issue. An thanks for the comic, enjoyed it very much. By the way, if the US should ever consider attacking the International Court of Justice at the Hague, I believe we got your back!

I know that I am new here. but let me pose a question:

Do you think that European spies are not caught on a regular basis in the US? I will find the link and post it, but as recently as this year two French intellignece officials were caught red handed bugging a location for a congressional committe meeting. Why? Most likely industrial espionage.

And what about Industrial Espionage perpetrated by the Chinese? Alot of that going on recently as well.

As far as the US making pit stops at Rhein Mein AB or Ramstein (sp) AB. They are ours. Stepping onto a US Base overseas is equal to stepping on US soil. Why shouldn't we use them. We also have what is called a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA)with every country (including Italy), that outlines what is and is not expected of each party. If you think that the Italians had no idea what was going on, you're being misinformed.

And a point about torture. Current US policy states that torture is not a tool used to get information. Certainly the military does not use it. I know because I am in the US military and have recently returned from the OIF theater. I know that someone is going to throw Abu Grahib into the mix, but I would just like to point out that there are bad apples in every bushel. Ours have been punished.

I cannot speak for the CIA. However I think that you would admit that every country has an Intelligence agency for obvious reasons. If the CIA scooped someone up...

By the way, if the US should ever consider attacking the International Court of Justice at the Hague, I believe we got your back!

and if they did so to rescue torturing assholes you can bet that there would be at least a bit of mayhem being made at home. not as much as there ought to be (americans are rather naive and easily decieved, even when they aren't downright evil), but some none the less.

and if they did so to rescue torturing assholes you can bet that there would be at least a bit of mayhem being made at home. not as much as there ought to be (americans are rather naive and easily decieved, even when they aren't downright evil), but some none the less.

Can I man the machine guns to defend the beaches? I kinda like The Hague and stuff. I would fight to protect my homeland from a direct attack by the USA, even if I am not at all a military man.

Usually I would dismiss it as a ridicilous scenario. After reports that Bush wanted to bomb Al Jazeera I am not so sure anymore.

Actually, that would make us behave as despicable as those we criticize here. A better approach would be to start a full scale investigation, all according to laws and procedures. Interestingly enough, it already is a crime if US detainees were brought into the country against their will - if only to refuel the plane.

There is that, but I was under the impression that if you detained or expelled intelligence operatives who are not there expressly with your permission, nobody is going to say anything about it.

Kidnapping might be a strong word, I admit, but it would amount to the same thing if the local police/intelligentsia just caught the person and hauled him in on charges of subversive activities would it not?

Besides, ultimately, I suppose you could put them on simple kidnap charges and unlawful holding of prisoners. It would be doubly ironic if you could use the withheld people as witnesses to testify against them. That would be legal no?

1) I know that I am new here. but let me pose a question:

2) Do you think that European spies are not caught on a regular basis in the US? I will find the link and post it, but as recently as this year two French intellignece officials were caught red handed bugging a location for a congressional committe meeting. Why? Most likely industrial espionage.

3) And what about Industrial Espionage perpetrated by the Chinese? Alot of that going on recently as well.

4) As far as the US making pit stops at Rhein Mein AB or Ramstein (sp) AB. They are ours. Stepping onto a US Base overseas is equal to stepping on US soil. Why shouldn't we use them. We also have what is called a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA)with every country (including Italy), that outlines what is and is not expected of each party. If you think that the Italians had no idea what was going on, you're being misinformed.

5) And a point about torture. Current US policy states that torture is not a tool used to get information. Certainly the military does not use it. I know because I am in the US military and have recently returned from the OIF theater. I know that someone is going to throw Abu Grahib into the mix, but I would just like to point out that there are bad apples in every bushel. Ours have been punished.

6) I cannot speak for the CIA. However I think that you would admit that every country has an Intelligence agency for obvious reasons. If the CIA scooped someone up...
1) Welcome to NS! Make yourself at home and be sure to check out the first three posts on the General main menu - they help a lot.

2) While that may be true, there is a slight difference between bugging someone and kidnapping someone, which this thread is about.

3) Enough of pointing fingers the other way.

4) And while all the base are belong to U.S. - the airspace surrounding them is German and therefore falls under our jurisdiction. Call me naive if you like, but I expect foreign troops to abide to our laws, which apparently, they didn't - otherwise there wouldn't be an official investigation into CIA matters abroad.

5) Right. "We do not torture!". What he didn't say is that maybe, they let others torture for them. Why else would the CIA go through all the hassle to fly suspects all around the world to the so-called "black sites"? As for the bad apples - sacrifice of a pawn springs to mind. No higher-ranking officer had to take any responsibility for that episode, strangely enough.

6) Yes? If the CIA scooped someone up... then what? They can do whatever they like? Don't think so.

Can I man the machine guns to defend the beaches? I kinda like The Hague and stuff. I would fight to protect my homeland from a direct attack by the USA, even if I am not at all a military man.

Usually I would dismiss it as a ridicilous scenario. After reports that Bush wanted to bomb Al Jazeera I am not so sure anymore.
I'm more than happy to volunteer as your loader! http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/mg.gif
I didn't join the military here, either - but instead, I'm a fully fledged paramedic! And I've spend hours on the beaches of RtCW!

There is that, but I was under the impression that if you detained or expelled intelligence operatives who are not there expressly with your permission, nobody is going to say anything about it.
Kidnapping might be a strong word, I admit, but it would amount to the same thing if the local police/intelligentsia just caught the person and hauled him in on charges of subversive activities would it not?
Besides, ultimately, I suppose you could put them on simple kidnap charges and unlawful holding of prisoners. It would be doubly ironic if you could use the withheld people as witnesses to testify against them. That would be legal no?
Not only would that be legal, but a well-chosen procedure according to law. Just a few simple questions. (One could go as far as to use the interrogation techniques defined by U.S. lawyers of not being torture, but I'm sure they would be considered torture under German law, therefore, nah...)

another reason why I'm moving to the Netherlands.

At the risk of sounding like a simpleton, Isay let the investigation run its course. If the allegations are true, then let the ICJ and the UNSC take action.
That'll be the ICJ that the US ignores, and the UNSC that the US has a veto on, right?

I'm more than happy to volunteer as your loader! http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/mg.gif
I didn't join the military here, either - but instead, I'm a fully fledged paramedic! And I've spend hours on the beaches of RtCW!

You'll know how to patch me up when the Americans use chemical weapons then. ;)

You'll know how to patch me up when the Americans use chemical weapons then. ;)


If there would be anything left to patch up after the initial bombing of the beaches.

That'll be the ICJ that the US ignores

at least they just ignore rulings from that one. they've threatened to invade if any of their war criminals are taken to the icc. but i say it's time to call their bluff.

You'll know how to patch me up when the Americans use chemical weapons then. ;)
You know that white phosporus is not considered a chemical weapon, right?

Other than that, sure: http://home.hccnet.nl/j.j.wesseling/smiley/gasmask.gif

P.S.: Whereas all other nation's soldiers receive cigarettes with their stuff - what do the Dutch soldiers get in their stash?

You know that white phosporus is not considered a chemical weapon, right?

but what are a few chemical reactions that melt the skin off of children between friends?

but what are a few chemical reactions that melt the skin off of children between friends?
You know what they say: Love hurts... http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/puempel.gif

Not only would that be legal, but a well-chosen procedure according to law. Just a few simple questions. (One could go as far as to use the interrogation techniques defined by U.S. lawyers of not being torture, but I'm sure they would be considered torture under German law, therefore, nah...)

Oh goody, can they be locked up for a couple dozen years then? I imagine that it would make things harder for the CIA if they started losing their operatives to lengthy prison terms without parole. Or execution if such is available in the country.

Well, if Europe wants to grow a serious set of balls they can call the EU block together and work with the independent nations to cut off all trade relations with the US. That would put a sizable hole into the US economy and very clearly send the message: stop fucking on our ground.
Somehow I doubt that will happen though.
It wouldn’t happen because it would hurt Europe far more than the US.
The US has spied Europe in the past, mainly for industrial and commercial reasons, this is just an extention of their disrespect over us.
Oh come now, don’t’ think we don’t know that your hotels spy on our businessman and sell the information. When reps from major corporations go oversees they are giving special classes (sometimes just a video tape) on how to avoid industrial espionage.

I, for one would welcome a trade war with Europe. Maybe then everyone would be a bit more hesitant to say. "We don't need America" Europe can deal with the middle east, and get there oil from there, we'll get ours from South America and Canada, and open up ANWR. We have natural gas, a massive amount of coal, a gigantic recycling infrastructure. We have more scientists, and a massive military to institute blockades anywhere we wish.

AND, I'll bet China isn't dumb enough to go against us! They know they need us, and they know who will win.

I'm betting dollars to dimes we'd win big. As Bush would say, "Bring it on" ;)

I'm betting dollars to dimes we'd win big. As Bush would say, "Bring it on" ;)
:rolleyes:
And what would be gained?

:rolleyes:
And what would be gained?
European Muslims can be dirt poor and pissed off at the US, too. See, Al Queda gains some stuff.

European Muslims can be dirt poor and pissed off at the US, too.
Aren't they already? :p

================================

The new German Foreign Minister (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4339302.stm) by the way is due to visit Washington in a few days as part of his taking office. People are asking him to ask the Americans to finally tell the truth about all this.

Might be a difficult start to his term...

German Link:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,387115,00.html

:rolleyes:
And what would be gained?
The satisfaction of looking upon the faces of millions of Europeans and saying "You aren't so fucking smug now, are you?" :D

The satisfaction of looking upon the faces of millions of Europeans and saying "You aren't so fucking smug now, are you?" :D
You know, you are doing so much damage to your country right now...

You know, you are doing so much damage to your country right now...
Well, if you want to judge 290 million people based on me, then why should I care what the hell your opinion of my country is? I mean, I like German people, and I don't think ALL germans are idiots based upon your ramblings. :D


Besides, I balance out all the Democrat pussies who'd rather fly the flag of the U.N. in our courtrooms and schools. Mix us both together, and you get a nice middleground America! ;)

I, for one would welcome a trade war with Europe. Maybe then everyone would be a bit more hesitant to say. "We don't need America" Europe can deal with the middle east, and get there oil from there, we'll get ours from South America and Canada, and open up ANWR. We have natural gas, a massive amount of coal, a gigantic recycling infrastructure. We have more scientists, and a massive military to institute blockades anywhere we wish.

Go ahead. Get into a trade war. The first thing I imagine would happen would be that the oil taps would be shut off, resulting in a major oil crunch. Secondly, ANWR doesn't have all that oil to last forever. Trying to open it up will at the very least, take a year or so before it will start pumping anything. Thirdly, South America, or in this case, Venezuela, would be courted by a majority of other nations to compete for their oil. The US won't be having a free ticket to that oil unless they invade.

See how the US would survive without a major oil distributor for the next 2-3 years. I'm sure you'd be very happy when agriculture, industry and the military grind to a halt for want of fuel.

And next, blockades? What are you talking about? Are you going to start blockading Asia, India and Europe? The end result of that would be the summary removal of all US presence outside American borders and the shutting down of their bases. I'm sure the Pentagon would be happy to see all their bases being closed down across the globe. Additionally, you start blockading everyone, including the touchy nations, and you're begging for those ships to be sunk, be it via cruise missiles or otherwise.


AND, I'll bet China isn't dumb enough to go against us! They know they need us, and they know who will win.

China isn't dumb enough to rely solely on the US either. They know how much the US plays in its role as a cash cow and only fools would not look to other customers as well. They'll suffer for a while, but they'll start looking for other buyers after that.

The US, being the target of the trade war, would have nobody to sell anything.


I'm betting dollars to dimes we'd win big. As Bush would say, "Bring it on" ;)

I'll raise you ten that says that although the world would be imporvished, the US would be devastated when the nations start calling in their debts and stop trading with the US. Your army isn't going to do you much good when you're broke. Unless you start imitating North Korea and start shunting your entire economy into the military.

And won't you be a happy boy when you're starving?

So get it straight. In a trade war, everybody loses. The only thing you would win would be spiralling costs and tons of unemployment.

So, leaving aside the outrage - and that a "trade war" could very well be the wake-up call certain people need to start behaving - what's the real news?

So far as we can tell, the CIA has been acting like this since it was created as an agency. Take a look at US actions in Latin America over the past century. A note... the ones with reason to particularly distrust the CIA most recently along with the current administration include Venezuela, so if things break out over the CIA's behavior into a trade war, I wouldn't expect Venezuela to side with the US.

What's the difference? The CIA is doing it in Europe, instead of Latin America? And now you're outraged? Should have seen it coming, meine Damen und Herren. The precedents in US foreign policy were set generations ago, and the globalization of US dominion firmly established in the policy decisions around WWII.

That is why a trade war is bad. I think the pretty arrogant assumption of FireAntz that the USA would "win" is sorely misstaken, given the piss-poor state of Americas trade balance and its HUGE foreign debts. Both the USA and Europe gain from a Free Trade environment, but let us not forget who actually created the Washington Consensus and who are most reliant on the free trade idea to maintain their hegemony. Both would suffer, but U.S. military, economic and financial dependencies on 'abroad' are much greater, and you have your own government to thank for that. Part of being a world power. I also have this funny feeling that Chavez wouldn't send oil to you first, although his programmes to give poor Americans some help in winter is pretty admirable.

Just refusing to help the USA with their stupid War on Terror unless they change their ways would be a much more on the spot response, as our actual problems are with how they do their War on Terror. Americans are bitching about having to send so many troops now already, after all. It will give them a clear choice: continue to go it alone or sit down and maybe listen to their allies for a change. I feel that either we are in this together, or not at all.

You know, you are doing so much damage to your country right now...
Oh come on it is good to see.

1) Welcome to NS! Make yourself at home and be sure to check out the first three posts on the General main menu - they help a lot.

2) While that may be true, there is a slight difference between bugging someone and kidnapping someone, which this thread is about.

3) Enough of pointing fingers the other way.

4) And while all the base are belong to U.S. - the airspace surrounding them is German and therefore falls under our jurisdiction. Call me naive if you like, but I expect foreign troops to abide to our laws, which apparently, they didn't - otherwise there wouldn't be an official investigation into CIA matters abroad.

5) Right. "We do not torture!". What he didn't say is that maybe, they let others torture for them. Why else would the CIA go through all the hassle to fly suspects all around the world to the so-called "black sites"? As for the bad apples - sacrifice of a pawn springs to mind. No higher-ranking officer had to take any responsibility for that episode, strangely enough.

6) Yes? If the CIA scooped someone up... then what? They can do whatever they like? Don't think so.


I'm more than happy to volunteer as your loader! http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/mg.gif
I didn't join the military here, either - but instead, I'm a fully fledged paramedic! And I've spend hours on the beaches of RtCW!


Not only would that be legal, but a well-chosen procedure according to law. Just a few simple questions. (One could go as far as to use the interrogation techniques defined by U.S. lawyers of not being torture, but I'm sure they would be considered torture under German law, therefore, nah...)

I guess my point was that espionage and counter-espionage happens and will always happen. Back before the wall fell, the Germans didn't mind so much who the CIA kidnapped. Again my main point was that these things are going to happen.

But take it personaly for a second. What if you were on public trasport in Germany. On a train from Bonn to Munich. And terrorists blew it up killing someone you love. Wouldn't you want the German Intelligence services to do what ever they had to do to make sure that it didn't happen again?

But take it personaly for a second. What if you were on public trasport in Germany. On a train from Bonn to Munich. And terrorists blew it up killing someone you love. Wouldn't you want the German Intelligence services to do what ever they had to do to make sure that it didn't happen again?

The problem is that it wasn't the German Intelligence services that did that in the route from Bonn to Munich. It would have been the CIA. Might I point out that North Korea did the same thing to Japan?

I mean NK intelligence services kidnapped a number of Japanese citizens, took them back to NK and quite a few of them died. NK still recieves flak for that. Why shouldn't the US get flak for the same acts? Difference of motive? Not a good defense. You still end up creating a big diplomatic doo doo.

It feels like the US disrespects Europe more and more. I don't like being called a 'peen'. It's probably all because France is a part of it. ;)

I guess my point was that espionage and counter-espionage happens and will always happen. Back before the wall fell, the Germans didn't mind so much who the CIA kidnapped. Again my main point was that these things are going to happen.

But take it personaly for a second. What if you were on public trasport in Germany. On a train from Bonn to Munich. And terrorists blew it up killing someone you love. Wouldn't you want the German Intelligence services to do what ever they had to do to make sure that it didn't happen again?
"Those things are going to happen no matter what" is a pretty feeble approach when it is clearly illegal what the CIA is allegedly doing, therefore it is only just that investigations follow. I honestly expected more respect from a befriended and allied nation. Then again, maybe I shouldn't have from a people who call themselves "land of the free" while they trample others' freedoms under foot.

And no, I would not want the German official institutions to start breaking the laws we live by to ensure that we can go on living according to those same laws.
It wouldn't make any sense, no matter how I would feel about it should I be personally involved.
Two wrongs simply do not make one right, no matter how you try to justify that kind of action - neither would you have the jurisdictional, nor the moral grounds to do so.

US Probes secret CIA jail claim (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4482458.stm)
"The United States in its actions does not break US law."
Hmmm...seems like things kinda worked out. Not sure what the US Government thinks of this behind closed doors, but at least publicly they're behaving relatively diplomatically.

And meanwhile in the UK..they're threatening the police with legal action over "aiding torture".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4483640.stm

So let me see if I have all the physical evidence right. We have flight logs, and............and um....... We have flight logs. Am I missing something?

He'd never be able to start it though. Because if he tried to sell it to congress, he'd have to tell the world that the people being imprisoned were actually US citizens, which will lend credence to the accusation that they are spies. More likely then not, they'll just cut their losses and try again. I wouldn't put abandoning compromised agents above the CIA.
That's the whole idea with NOC (Non-Official Cover) agents. If they get caught, they're on their own and they know it.

It makes me wonder what they have done here in AU.... kinda makes you wonder why nations are going after people like Hussain when the US authorities think the world's their playground. "we saved your asses in World War II!" yeah, so what, that was 60 years ago, and doesnt give you the right to trespass in other nations without consulting their authorities.

Oh come now, don’t’ think we don’t know that your hotels spy on our businessman and sell the information. When reps from major corporations go oversees they are giving special classes (sometimes just a video tape) on how to avoid industrial espionage.

Really? O.o Woa, France as a shit load of companies in the de-bugging business!

You ever heard of the GemPlus affair? After that little one, you can't really blame the frenchies.. they just learned after the great teachers you were :)

well as its official american policy to limit Europes ability to act independently of the US then this doesn't supprise me in the slightest

So let me see if I have all the physical evidence right. We have flight logs, and............and um....... We have flight logs. Am I missing something?
And for example the Austrians sending up fighter jets to intercept an unannounced intruder that turned out to be a CIA Hercules...

Another article, also containing something about that incident:
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,387185,00.html
In January 2003, the Austrian air force even sent up two fighter jets to check on a suspicious Hercules flying under registration number N8183J. An investigation later revealed that the plane had taken off from the Rhine-Main Airbase in Frankfurt and was operated by Tepper Aviation, which is considered a CIA front company.
And because that might still not enough, I also found a photo...
http://www.airpower.at/news03/0203_tepper/tepper_1.jpg

If it comes to spying there is but one master. One word: Echelon. ;)

So let me see if I have all the physical evidence right. We have flight logs, and............and um....... We have flight logs. Am I missing something?

I think it's been demonstrated here that there is a lot more evidence than that. This really is quite a simple question that is being asked of the US authorities. Do you consider the EU as your allies. And if so, are you flouting EU laws. And if so, why?

If the answer is demonstrably yes, no and therefore not relevant, great.

If it is Yes, Yes and it's the war on terror, stupid, then the US is not in a terribly strong position, either legally or philosophically.

http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/europa.gif

Finally, our foreign minister doing something right. I had not expected this of my country, but it is a pleasant surprise that we are standing up:



War on Terror is all fine and dandy, but not if the US abuses the Human Rights it claims to protect. The Netherlands has always been a loyal ally of the United States, but there are limits to what even our current centre-right government is willing to go along with.

Oh Lord no! I wonder how we'll ever manage without the fearsome :rolleyes: Dutch army!

Oh Lord no! I wonder how we'll ever manage without the fearsome :rolleyes: Dutch army!
I remember going on joint exercises with Dutch infantry in the late 1980s.

They all had very long hair, which made wearing their helmets nearly impossible - most grumbled about carrying the helmet, since they couldn't even put it on.

The junior enlisted also introduced me to a unique feature of the Dutch Army. If you get an order from an officer, the squad can vote amongst themselves as to whether or not they will comply. About half the time, they would refuse orders (getting a whole company to do the whole bounding overwatch/movement to contact exercise, which involves a lot of getting up and down and running, was essentially impossible, as about half the squads would refuse to move).

Well, I'm rooting for you, my European brethren. Stick it to the yanks!

Oh Lord no! I wonder how we'll ever manage without the fearsome :rolleyes: Dutch army!

*sigh*. Of course the absence of the Dutch army would not make a military difference. But the slap in the face of the USA when one of its most loyal allies ever since the US was founded will publically state they believe the USA is being the bad guy will be quite painful.

The junior enlisted also introduced me to a unique feature of the Dutch Army. If you get an order from an officer, the squad can vote amongst themselves as to whether or not they will comply.
Well, in peace times, why not? Is there compulsory military service in Holland?

I'm pretty certain that if things get serious, Dutch soldiers will follow their orders just like any others. Afterall they have been doing their job in Afghanistan and Iraq.

We'll pull the plug on the internet for you Euros if you keep acting up. Remember who controls it. :p

*sigh*. Of course the absence of the Dutch army would not make a military difference. But the slap in the face of the USA when one of its most loyal allies ever since the US was founded will publically state they believe the USA is being the bad guy will be quite painful.

Not really. If we can stand these whiny Canadians right next door to us a bunch of Dutchmen proclaiming their loathing isn't anything spectacular.

We'll pull the plug on the internet for you Euros if you keep acting up. Remember who controls it. :p
Niraga ->http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/hacker.gif___<- SkyNet

You could try... ;)

And for example the Austrians sending up fighter jets to intercept an unannounced intruder that turned out to be a CIA Hercules...

Another article, also containing something about that incident:
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,387185,00.html

And because that might still not enough, I also found a photo...
http://www.airpower.at/news03/0203_tepper/tepper_1.jpg

Wow! A picture is said to be worth a thousand words. In this case the first word should be "fraud". The herc was cut from another picture with a darker background and then pasted onto the the one with the fighter jets. Enlarge the picture up and check it out for yourself. If this is typical of the evidence behind this "secret prison" nonsense then the rest of the so-called evidence is likely also to be trumped up. Liberals! (pronounced as an uncomplimentary pejorative having much the same negative connotation as boorish, loutish or european.)

Wow! A picture is said to be worth a thousand words. In this case the first word should be "fraud". The herc was cut from another picture with a darker background and then pasted onto the the one with the fighter jets. Enlarge the picture up and check it out for yourself. If this is typical of the evidence behind this "secret prison" nonsense then the rest of the so-called evidence is likely also to be trumped up. Liberals! (pronounced as an uncomplimentary pejorative having much the same negative connotation as boorish, loutish or european.)
I did. Go get your eyes checked. Besides:

http://www.bmlv.gv.at/english/index.htm
http://www.bmlv.gv.at/cms/artikel.php?ID=333

Funny that the official Austrian Armed Forces website displays exactly your "fraud" picture, ain't it?

In this case the first word should be "fraud". The herc was cut from another picture with a darker background and then pasted onto the the one with the fighter jets.
Good on you for spotting it. I didn't. But there are plenty of other pictures of that very Plane (you can spot the Number on it), and the Austrian Air Force has the records of the incident.

The picture may well be fake (I'll take your word for it, I'm not a specialist), but that does not change the fact that this incident happened.

As for your ranting on about manufactured evidence - the EU commission is doing an investigation, which contains records of EU-wide air space monitoring systems, of airports, satellite images of the suspected camps as well as investigations on the ground at some of the suspected sites.
The US Government seems to take it seriously, so you should too.

And here is another picture of the plane, and a website outlining what happened.
http://images.airliners.net/photos/middle/6/2/0/426026.jpg
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_381.shtml

Well, a few weeks ago we heard about the Washington Post first reporting about installations in Eastern Europe where people were being held, and presumably exposed to questionable interrogation techniques.

And it turns out that some of the Governments in those countries were not actually told about this - and they got angry.

In response, the EU started an investigation (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4461470.stm) into this...and now the things that turn up are starting to get ridiculous.

"Rendition (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,386033,00.html)"-victims have been flown into EU countries for stopovers, without the governments being told, both in Spain (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4439036.stm) as well as in Scandinavia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4448792.stm).

And not only that...apparently the US Government was quite happy to even use the Kosovo (http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/11/25/afx2354167.html) as a playground - no government there afterall. :rolleyes:

A while ago first ideas have come up about trying to get the CIA into court (link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4619377.stm), and link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4297966.stm)) about a seperate matter, namely kidnapping people of European streets apparently without consent of the relevant authorities.

This is getting out of hand. The CIA has apparently been using Europe as a playground, completely ignoring its sovereignty.

What say you to this?
Highly worrying. It is high time the USA recognised the EU's status in the world. It doesn't have a free hand in whichever nation/entity it so chooses, and there are limits to its power. Maybe member states will wake up to the need now for further convergence.

A few things happened in the past few days, and I reckon they justify reviving this thread.

One was the visit of the German Foreign Minister who asked the Americans to explain. UK Foreign Minister (acting as EU spokesperson) also asked for clarification.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4478766.stm
And then the EU Head of Justice has dropped something of a bomb shell and said that EU-states which are found to have had these Black Sites on their territory will habe their voting rights removed!
:eek:

And in the US, the ACLU is going to sue the CIA.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4494246.stm

Rice is going to answer the questions in a few days...I can't wait. Maybe we'll finally hear the full truth? Is that a realistic hope?

*shakes head*

This is like Jenny Jones, when the kids are beating on the parents and the parents don't do shit.

There's no Sergeant Jones for you're kids Europe!

*shakes head*

This is like Jenny Jones, when the kids are beating on the parents and the parents don't do shit.

There's no Sergeant Jones for you're kids Europe!

Sure there is. It is called "Europe allying with Asia and Arabia".

The US has spied Europe in the past, mainly for industrial and commercial reasons, this is just an extention of their disrespect over us.

I say simple expose their operations. And operatives. And methods.

You think the US is bad? Go talk to the Chinese about there industrial spies...oh wait. :rolleyes:

You think the US is bad? Go talk to the Chinese about there industrial spies...oh wait. :rolleyes:
Hell, I can live with a little spying. God knows Europeans do it too.

But this is just a little different. Every law in the EU states that torture and helping to commit torture is wrong. Rendition (and likely the Black Sites too) completely ignore this, and therefore the EU as an organisation cannot sit idly by.
And on the other hand it is the underhanded behaviour that directly hurts the sovereignty of the countries concerned.

What are "we" (as Europeans) to think when our Politicians are desperately trying to tell us that the relationship with the US is okay, and that we are still friends and allies if that kind of thing happens?

You all also might wanna keep in mind that the CIA has had its own agenda for quite some time now. There in line with the Federal Government but they are not exactly big on working hand in hand with them. Its a agency that has its own way of doing things. Agencies like MI6, CIA, and what not might not think twice about going above the law to get things done.

You all also might wanna keep in mind that the CIA has had its own agenda for quite some time now. There in line with the Federal Government but they are not exactly big on working hand in hand with them. Its a agency that has its own way of doing things. Agencies like MI6, CIA, and what not might not think twice about going above the law to get things done.

And as long as they do that in the USA that is fine. As soon as they do that in another country who doesn't want them to, the country that houses their main base and provides their main funding is responsible.

BE REASONABLE!!! I think that was warrented in this situation. There's been a lot of silly posts in this thread, and from both sides. America WILL NOT go to war with Europe. Neither side could be so stupid.

BE REASONABLE!!! I think that was warrented in this situation. There's been a lot of silly posts in this thread, and from both sides. America WILL NOT go to war with Europe. Neither side could be so stupid.

No. The reasonable thing is for the EU nations to start rounding up the operatives involved in these rendition programs and charge them with kidnap, assault, unlawful detention and torture. All of them are considered crimes in most nations when done by private citizens and even more so when it is done by foreign intelligence operatives.

Legal, reasonable and completely above board. If they want to do things like this, they can try to talk to the EU nations about it. But oops, they can't because its illegal there.

Do the crime, do the time.