NationStates Jolt Archive

People are always going on about prison, and prison rape, and how criminals should expect it and deserve it. But sheesh people! Not all people in jail have done something truly heinous, and EVEN IF THEY DID...prisons are not meant to be places of sexual torture. Rape is not supposed to be a part of justice.

I remember an anti-fascist meeting where one person, in a group of people concerned about human rights, made a comment that he hoped a local group of nazis got arrested and raped in prison. So much for human rights! They should apply, even to people you HATE.

I don't think enough is done to protect prisoners in jail. No, I don't mean making it all nice and cushy and getting them porn mags...I mean protecting their lives, their health, and preventing them from being raped. That doesn't mean I love crime, or love criminals. But this casual idea that it's what criminals deserve is rather twisted.

Not all prison sex is rape.

Not all prison sex is rape.
I'm only talking about rape. Sorry if it seemed I was confusing the two.

its horrifying that rape is an accepted part of a prison sentence. in many prisons they use the prisoner gangs to help keep order.

what the point of putting men into a situation that is all but guaranteed to turn them out worse than when they went in?

I'm only talking about rape. Sorry if it seemed I was confusing the two.

Well, rape is never right. But, I feel that a convict has essentially broken the social contract, and as such, already has many rights eliminated or reduced by law.

I would probably address this by formalizing it as part of the official punishment - that if you are a convicted child molester or rapist, other prisoners are free to rape you as much as they like.

Same for first degree murder - if you're doing a life sentence for it, and another prisoner happens to kill you, oh well.

its horrifying that rape is an accepted part of a prison sentence. in many prisons they use the prisoner gangs to help keep order.

what the point of putting men into a situation that is all but guaranteed to turn them out worse than when they went in?
It seems to me it lessons the chance of rehabilitation.

Well, rape is never right. But, I feel that a convict has essentially broken the social contract, and as such, already has many rights eliminated or reduced by law.

I would probably address this by formalizing it as part of the official punishment - that if you are a convicted child molester or rapist, other prisoners are free to rape you as much as they like.

Same for first degree murder - if you're doing a life sentence for it, and another prisoner happens to kill you, oh well.
And yet child molesters, and in fact most prisoners charged with sex crimes are isolated from the general population for fear of their lives. So the ones getting raped, are not necessarily even the ones who committed such crimes themselves. I don't support 'an eye for an eye', and even the sexual offenders I think should be protected from rape. Currently, they usually are. Now let's extend that to all prisoners.

what the point of putting men into a situation that is all but guaranteed to turn them out worse than when they went in?

To give the allusion that justice has been done.

.... Rape is not supposed to be a part of justice.



Penal institute?!?

I think it's people making an emotional response instead of thinking it out. Or, deciding that their emotional response is correct, even after looking at logic... or they say that it is their logic. *shrug*

To give the allusion that justice has been done.
Are you alluding to illusion?:D

It seems to me it lessons the chance of rehabilitation.

Rehabilitation for violent offenders has been proven in many, many studies to be a farce. See the works of Yochelson and Samenow - only one technique has had true limited success.

Prison, if it is to fulfill its true need, is to isolate the criminal mind from the rest of society until such time as the criminal is far less likely to repeat their crime. For some crimes, this is essentially forever. For other crimes, it's holding them to at least the age of 50.

Aging a prisoner has a far more salutary effect on the recidivism rate than any rehabilitation program in history.

Rehabilitation for violent offenders has been proven in many, many studies to be a farce. See the works of Yochelson and Samenow - only one technique has had true limited success.

Prison, if it is to fulfill its true need, is to isolate the criminal mind from the rest of society until such time as the criminal is far less likely to repeat their crime. For some crimes, this is essentially forever. For other crimes, it's holding them to at least the age of 50.

Aging a prisoner has a far more salutary effect on the recidivism rate than any rehabilitation program in history.
Fine, and I agree. But aging a prisoner doesn't need rape.

Intellectually most people know it isn't right, but viscerally most people want to know that brutal murderers and rapists end up getting raped by violent prisoners because it satisfies a craving for revenge. I agree that it should be prevented whenever possible, but I know that part of me is happy that those who have commited brutal crimes against innocents are themselves being brutally violated.

Fine, and I agree. But aging a prisoner doesn't need rape.
So put them all in solitary. Problem solved.

It seems to me it lessons the chance of rehabilitation.
Are you alluding to illusion

Are you teaching about rehabilitation;)

I know, I'm a wise ass.

If I was criminal and went to prison, I wouldn't go around raping other prisoners. I'd be too busy planning my escape and the crime that I am going to commit when I get out.

Fine, and I agree. But aging a prisoner doesn't need rape.

but what if rape is an essential component of the time machine?

**leaves thread, never to return**

Are you alluding to illusion?:D

Bah, I've never been too good with my first language :(

I don't think enough is done to protect prisoners in jail. No, I don't mean making it all nice and cushy and getting them porn mags...I mean protecting their lives, their health, and preventing them from being raped. That doesn't mean I love crime, or love criminals. But this casual idea that it's what criminals deserve is rather twisted.
I totally agree. Way too many people are casual and cruel about this. Rape is a form of torture, and allowing it to occur in our prisons is tacit consent to torture. The government has an obligation to protect all citizens from harm, even its least likable ones.

It strikes me as a very North American thing in the Western perspective. Those sorts of attitudes are very rare here - I've never heard or seen anyone talk about "knulla mig i arslet fängelser," which would be the equivalent of "(federal) pound-me-in-the-ass prison."

I see it as just another way to dehumanise and devalue people, so that their human rights can be ignored and the be demeaned without hurting a self-imposed image of righteousness. "They're criminal, so they don't deserve basic human rights."

It is of course a deeply unethical and immoral stance.

So put them all in solitary. Problem solved.

Or not, looking at all the social and psychological problems created by solitary confinement...

The government has an obligation to protect all citizens from harm, even its least likable ones.

Of course the government will protect itself

Or not, looking at all the social and psychological problems created by solitary confinement...

What problems? I'm keeping them in there until they reach old age, which studies show sharply reduces the problem they present, at least as far as crime goes.

Intellectually most people know it isn't right, but viscerally most people want to know that brutal murderers and rapists end up getting raped by violent prisoners because it satisfies a craving for revenge. I agree that it should be prevented whenever possible, but I know that part of me is happy that those who have commited brutal crimes against innocents are themselves being brutally violated.
Again...the rapists are isolated, and generally much safer than say, a young punk who stole a car. Does stealing a car really warrant rape? How many 'brutal murderers' compared to other criminals are there in the system...and would you sanction violent rape as punishment for all those other crimes?

So put them all in solitary. Problem solved.
It'll never happen. Too much money would be required.

Of course the government will protect itself
You're deliberately misinterpreting my words.

Are you teaching about rehabilitation;)

I know, I'm a wise ass.
Beautiful! (and deserved)

You're deliberately misinterpreting my words.

Come on. What you posted just begged for that remark ;)

You're deliberately misinterpreting my words.

You're accidentally misinterpreting mine

What problems? I'm keeping them in there until they reach old age, which studies show sharply reduces the problem they present, at least as far as crime goes.
Be serious now. You're not going to keep all prisoners in isolation (which is actually used as a form of torture sometimes) until they're 65 or something, with the hope that their age will cancel the effects of years of isolation, thereby rehabilitating them. You're so silly when you want to mess with us:)

It'll never happen. Too much money would be required.
I would submit that the general public is not willing to spend very much money to reduce the number of prison rapes.

It would require, for starters, redesigning the basic structure of prisons, to make it more difficult. More guards. More education of both guards and prisoners.

Spending money.

It's one thing to say you're against prison rape - and a very large step to say you're willing to spend a few billion dollars on the prison system to make sure it stops.

What problems? I'm keeping them in there until they reach old age, which studies show sharply reduces the problem they present, at least as far as crime goes.

Aging them, sure, but in solitary confinement for that long... you think they'll stay mentally stable? Putting someone in solitary confinement for that long is almost guaranteed to have an effect on their mental state.

You're accidentally misinterpreting mine
Then before I jump on this, could you please explain what you meant?

You're accidentally misinterpreting mine
Sorry, I don't find jokes funny when we're talking about rape.

Again...the rapists are isolated, and generally much safer than say, a young punk who stole a car. Does stealing a car really warrant rape? How many 'brutal murderers' compared to other criminals are there in the system...and would you sanction violent rape as punishment for all those other crimes?
I agree with you. I don't really think anyone deserves to be raped in prison, but when I heard about that pedophile priest from Boston getting strangled with his own sock part of me was a little disappointed that he wasn't gang raped first.

I would submit that the general public is not willing to spend very much money to reduce the number of prison rapes.

It would require, for starters, redesigning the basic structure of prisons, to make it more difficult. More guards. More education of both guards and prisoners.

Spending money.

It's one thing to say you're against prison rape - and a very large step to say you're willing to spend a few billion dollars on the prison system to make sure it stops.
And I would be, had I billions to spare. I would not be willing to spend billions on isolating all prisoners. There is the difference.

But people are not supporting dealing with rape in prison because of money. They are not supporting even looking at this issue, because most people, if you ask them, kind of feel it's part and parcel of prison...part of the punishment. Until one of their family members goes in, anyway.

I agree with you. I don't really think anyone deserves to be raped in prison, but when I heard about that pedophile priest from Boston getting strangled with his own sock part of me was a little disappointed that he wasn't gang raped first.

And have it posted as a video clip on the Internet.

Then before I jump on this, could you please explain what you meant?

I was joking. That's all. But he seemed to take it seriously. Had he interpreted it correctly, he would have known it was a joke.

What problems? I'm keeping them in there until they reach old age, which studies show sharply reduces the problem they present, at least as far as crime goes.
there are prisons that house criminals so dangerous that they are all kept pretty much in solitary confinement. this has allowed the study of the effects of such treatment

turns out that it makes you utterly crazy. (feel free to look it up, im not going to so dont ask)

so keeping a young man in solitary confinement for 30 years (until he turns 50 and is old enough to be released due to age) would put the very most sociopathic/psychopathic prisoners back onto the streets.

I agree with you. I don't really think anyone deserves to be raped in prison, but when I heard about that pedophile priest from Boston getting strangled with his own sock part of me was a little disappointed that he wasn't gang raped first.
Granted, we all have our moments when vengeance seems like a good thing. I get pissed off too, and make comments, but if you really examine it, can you really support the way it is an accepted part of the prison experience?

And I realise, by the way, that not all prisoners get raped.

I was joking. That's all. But he seemed to take it seriously. Had he interpreted it correctly, he would have known it was a joke.

I knew it was a joke. I just found it highly unfunny and inappropriate. And I'm a she, just so you know.

I knew it was a joke. I just found it highly unfunny and inappropriate. And I'm a she, just so you know.

Most of my jokes are unfunny, and many are inappropriate. Sorry about the gender thing though.

It strikes me as a very North American thing in the Western perspective. Those sorts of attitudes are very rare here - I've never heard or seen anyone talk about "knulla mig i arslet fängelser," which would be the equivalent of "(federal) pound-me-in-the-ass prison."
True. I have read two studies commissioned by the Department of Correctional services here, and they claim that prison rapes are extremely rare. Must be a cultural thing... but how could it be..? Maybe their prisons are overcrowded..? Dunno. Other forms of inmates disciplining each other is common here too, though. That, of course, is something that shouldn't be tolerated either.

I was joking. That's all. But he seemed to take it seriously. Had he interpreted it correctly, he would have known it was a joke.
Hmmm. Sorry. I'm not seeing it either. But anyway, moving on...

Hmmm. Sorry. I'm not seeing it either.

**Sigh** She said that the government has a duty to protect even its least likeable citizens. I said that of course the government would protect itself, implying that the government are the least likeable citizens of any country. It was nothing to do with rape.

It seems to me it lessons the chance of rehabilitation.


As if that is ever really possible.

It strikes me as a very North American thing in the Western perspective. Those sorts of attitudes are very rare here - I've never heard or seen anyone talk about "knulla mig i arslet fängelser," which would be the equivalent of "(federal) pound-me-in-the-ass prison."

I see it as just another way to dehumanise and devalue people, so that their human rights can be ignored and the be demeaned without hurting a self-imposed image of righteousness. "They're criminal, so they don't deserve basic human rights."

It is of course a deeply unethical and immoral stance.Yes indeed it is mostly a North-American tradition...

How about, rather than jail them, we Cryogenically freeze them all? If rehabilitation doesn't work, and we can't execute them or keep them segregated on humanistic grounds, why not just ship them off to the future? That'd stop the rape. That way, Jail is just a place where you can keep people while they're awaiting trial and/or punishment for minor offenses.

We could take a page out of British history and just ship them all to Australia.

OR NOT! I really hate to admit this, but I've been there. Too many DUIs, a long time ago....
Noone EVER believes me when I tell them this, but rape in prison is actually pretty rare. It does happen, though. The main reason that everyone thinks you get raped in prison, (are you ready for it?) is that's what they want you to think! That's not to say that there's not plenty of sex going on, but the vast majority of it is consensual. The reason everyone seems to take prison rape as a given, is that is what we're spoonfed, mostly by movies, but all across the media spectrum.
I should mention that I was separated from the main population, being a nonviolent criminal, but where they put you when you first arrive, the "fishtank," was the same place as the "hole." We were treated the same, shared very small cells. I had a "celly" that had stabbed another prisoner, another who had brandished a pistol on the strip in Vegas while he was tweekin'.
No doubt, a very scary place, one that all should avoid, but the whole idea that when you go to prison you automatically get raped, is mostly a myth propagated by the powers that be.
(I knew you wouldn't believe me.)

No doubt, a very scary place, one that all should avoid, but the whole idea that when you go to prison you automatically get raped, is mostly a myth propagated by the powers that be.
(I knew you wouldn't believe me.)
I do believe that it isn't happening every second, to every prisoner. What I'm questioning is the perception of people who think that prison rape is kind of 'your due' as a criminal. Whether it happens as much as they think (or hope) isn't really as important as the idea that people feel safe wishing ill on criminals...and thinking that rape, for some people, is okay.

I do believe that it isn't happening every second, to every prisoner. What I'm questioning is the perception of people who think that prison rape is kind of 'your due' as a criminal. Whether it happens as much as they think (or hope) isn't really as important as the idea that people feel safe wishing ill on criminals...and thinking that rape, for some people, is okay.

Well, there are lots of people that I wish ill on. Take insurgents for example. I could care less what manner of death takes them, since they knew the job was dangerous when they took it.

As for criminals, I believe there should be a separate prison system for violent felons as opposed to those who commit "victimless crimes". Mind you, the white collar criminals would be in there with the violent felons.

I think instead of prison, we should have a massive fenced off area in the Nevada desert, and just drop the violent felons in there. And leave them there forever. We could airdrop food and water and they could fight over it.

I think instead of prison, we should have a massive fenced off area in the Nevada desert, and just drop the violent felons in there. And leave them there forever. We could airdrop food and water and they could fight over it.
Or have gameshows that reenact the Running Man!

We could take a page out of British history and just ship them all to Australia.

But then what will we do with the aussie criminals?

People are always going on about prison, and prison rape, and how criminals should expect it and deserve it. But sheesh people! Not all people in jail have done something truly heinous, and EVEN IF THEY DID...prisons are not meant to be places of sexual torture. Rape is not supposed to be a part of justice.

I remember an anti-fascist meeting where one person, in a group of people concerned about human rights, made a comment that he hoped a local group of nazis got arrested and raped in prison. So much for human rights! They should apply, even to people you HATE.

I don't think enough is done to protect prisoners in jail. No, I don't mean making it all nice and cushy and getting them porn mags...I mean protecting their lives, their health, and preventing them from being raped. That doesn't mean I love crime, or love criminals. But this casual idea that it's what criminals deserve is rather twisted.

How do you know what their life is like prison? Have you been to one? Do you actually know how much danger they are in? Or are you just basing your opinions on rumours and urban myths?

But then what will we do with the aussie criminals?
They could host an orientation seminar to make the new American criminals familiar with words like Chunder, foods like Vegamite, and Australia's odd culture and style of dress.

http://www.dark-movies.de/MadMax3/MadMax3.jpg

How do you know what their life is like prison? Have you been to one? Do you actually know how much danger they are in? Or are you just basing your opinions on rumours and urban myths?
I'm native. Which does not automatically mean what I am about to say, but in my case, it does:) I have cousins, uncles, and friends in a range of institutions, from minimum, to maximum security. I also know plenty of people from my community who have been in, at one point or another. Some are more open than others about their experiences...and all of this evidence is purely anecdotal, and I'm not going to dredge up stats. But no, I'm not basing this on urban myths or Hollywood.

They could host an orientation seminar to make the new American criminals familiar with words like Chunder, foods like Vegamite, and Australia's odd culture and style of dress.

http://www.dark-movies.de/MadMax3/MadMax3.jpg

Interesting.And they could employ mauri prison guards.nobody would dare mess with them.

I do believe there's an amendment in the Contitution prohibiting "cruel and unusual punishment." Whether you agree with the Contitution or not, as an American citizen, you must abide by the laws of the state. There are certainly people out there who have earned an horrific fate. But let's leave that up to karma, or God, or whatever you want to call it.
And I'm an agnostic.

its horrifying that rape is an accepted part of a prison sentence. in many prisons they use the prisoner gangs to help keep order.

what the point of putting men into a situation that is all but guaranteed to turn them out worse than when they went in?

because the whole system is a fucked up lie. it doesn't serve the purposes it's claimed to exist for, but serves other purposes entirely. clearly it should be possible to run prisons as a relatively safe place to be, given the amount of control the authorities have. the fact that it isn't tells you that they don't want it to be one. they want one filled with fear and the threat of extra punishment (legal or otherwise) and with the possibility of privileges and protection for those that cooperate with the established system.

the state is just another gang.

I completely agree I think it is absolutly disgusting that anyone could get away with prison rape.

Well, there are lots of people that I wish ill on. Take insurgents for example. I could care less what manner of death takes them, since they knew the job was dangerous when they took it.

So do you wish ill on american soldiers then? Do you not care what manner of death takes them, since they knew the job was dangerous when they took it? You wouldn't mind if I, or any other american soldier for that manner, were caught by insurgents, and tortured and/or shot to death?

Im not talking about what actually happens, but what you feel "ok" with. Unless I'm vastly misinterpreting you, you are saying you don't mind if we kill insurgents, etc. Either you should feel the same way for american troops, or you have a big double standard.

You're sickening.

So do you wish ill on american soldiers then? Do you not care what manner of death takes them, since they knew the job was dangerous when they took it? You wouldn't mind if I, or any other american soldier for that manner, were caught by insurgents, and tortured and/or shot to death?

Im not talking about what actually happens, but what you feel "ok" with. Unless I'm vastly misinterpreting you, you are saying you don't mind if we kill insurgents, etc. Either you should feel the same way for american troops, or you have a big double standard.

You're sickening.
I guess it comes down to how to apply justice with honor. Tolerating rape in prison, under any circumstances, in my view is cruel and unusual, and therefore, inhumane. That does not mean that some individuals don't deserve some sort of cruel fate. But that job should be left to fate i.e. karma, God, ect.

So do you wish ill on american soldiers then? Do you not care what manner of death takes them, since they knew the job was dangerous when they took it? You wouldn't mind if I, or any other american soldier for that manner, were caught by insurgents, and tortured and/or shot to death?

Im not talking about what actually happens, but what you feel "ok" with. Unless I'm vastly misinterpreting you, you are saying you don't mind if we kill insurgents, etc. Either you should feel the same way for american troops, or you have a big double standard.

You're sickening.
I guess it comes down to how to apply justice with honor. Tolerating rape in prison, under any circumstances, in my view is cruel and unusual, and therefore, inhumane. That does not mean that some individuals don't deserve some sort of cruel fate. But that job should be left to fate i.e. karma, God, ect.

Noone EVER believes me when I tell them this, but rape in prison is actually pretty rare.

"In 2004, correctional authorities reported 3.15 allegations of sexual violence per 1,000 inmates."
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/svrca04.htm

2004 'forcible rape' rate per 100,000 inhabitants = 32.2 (this count isn't exactly equivalent to the above, since it doesn't count rapes of males for some stupid reason - but outside of prison they are such a tiny minority that it probably doesn't matter)
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/forcible_rape.html

315 per 100,000 in prison
32.2 per 100,000 out of it.

rare, yes. but ten times more common than outside. and these are just the ones that get reported - which is always way under the actual number of incidents. almost certainly even more so for prisoners. especially since according to the report from the first link, it's actually the prison staff engaging in the rape of prisoners slightly more often than other prisoners.

the report also says that "relative to the number of inmates, there were 0.94 substantiated incidents of sexual violence per 1,000 inmates reported in 2004." which means that even if you only count the cases where the authorities actually found there to be enough evidence to actually have to do something about the reported rape, there are still three times as many rapes as are merely reported outside of prisons. of course, the most common finding is that they can't find anything (cause that would involve actually looking and treating prisoners like human beings, which goes against the purpose of the prison system) and so the cases are dismissed as unsubstantiated.

I don't think enough is done to protect prisoners in jail. No, I don't mean making it all nice and cushy and getting them porn mags...I mean protecting their lives, their health, and preventing them from being raped. That doesn't mean I love crime, or love criminals. But this casual idea that it's what criminals deserve is rather twisted.

Would keeping them locked up 24/7 in individual cells do it for you? That would protect them from rape.

No, rape in any form or fashion performed on any person is not acceptable behavior. However, prisons are not nice places and that has to do with the people that live there. You can't put a group of not-so-nice people in one place and expect them to live in a socially acceptable manner.

"In 2004, correctional authorities reported 3.15 allegations of sexual violence per 1,000 inmates."
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/svrca04.htm

2004 'forcible rape' rate per 100,000 inhabitants = 32.2 (this count isn't exactly equivalent to the above, since it doesn't count rapes of males for some stupid reason - but outside of prison they are such a tiny minority that it probably doesn't matter)
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/forcible_rape.html

315 per 100,000 in prison
32.2 per 100,000 out of it.

rare, yes. but ten times more common than outside. and these are just the ones that get reported - which is always way under the actual number of incidents. almost certainly even more so for prisoners. especially since according to the report from the first link, it's actually the prison staff engaging in the rape of prisoners slightly more often than other prisoners.

the report also says that "relative to the number of inmates, there were 0.94 substantiated incidents of sexual violence per 1,000 inmates reported in 2004." which means that even if you only count the cases where the authorities actually found there to be enough evidence to actually have to do something about the reported rape, there are still three times as many rapes as are merely reported outside of prisons. of course, the most common finding is that they can't find anything (cause that would involve actually looking and treating prisoners like human beings, which goes against the purpose of the prison system) and so the cases are dismissed as unsubstantiated.
I agree that the actual cases of prison rape are (they are) higher than the statistics. No doubt. I was just trying to dismiss the myth that upon arrival in prison, you get a cellmate named Bubba, who wants to bugger you. It's a myth propagated by the mainstream media, and it's wrong.
It's almost impossible to convince the public that if you've been to prison, you haven't been raped, or sexually humiliated in some way.

Would keeping them locked up 24/7 in individual cells do it for you? That would protect them from rape. No, as has been mentioned before, that might actually be WORSE.

No, rape in any form or fashion performed on any person is not acceptable behavior. However, prisons are not nice places and that has to do with the people that live there. You can't put a group of not-so-nice people in one place and expect them to live in a socially acceptable manner.
No, you can't expect that. But you can enforce it. Prisons are supposed to be about control.

It's almost impossible to convince the public that if you've been to prison, you haven't been raped, or sexually humiliated in some way.
I understand wanting to change that perception. As long as everyone is clear that prison does not = immediate and inevitable rape, but rape happens more often in prison that it does outside.

No, as has been mentioned before, that might actually be WORSE.


No, you can't expect that. But you can enforce it. Prisons are supposed to be about control.

So, how many guards per prisoner would you suggest they use to maintain control? Are you willing to pay more taxes to support that ratio?

So, how many guards per prisoner would you suggest they use to maintain control? Are you willing to pay more taxes to support that ratio?
Before any money would even be thought about, the idea that it's okay would have to be overcome. Taxpayers, on the whole, in my opinion, would not sanction any spending on prisons, period...and certainly not for prisoner safety.

And I have no bloody idea what would be needed in terms of manpower, restructuring, or whatnot. Clearly some research is going to have to be done into that, and I'll leave that to the experts.

If they can spend money on the gun registry, then yes, I think they can spend some money on this. Our taxes weren't raised for that, and they won't be raised for this...but it will of course mean taking money out of something else for a bit. Again...I'm not qualified to figure out how that would work, so on both counts, I'll refrain from talking out of my ass.

So, how many guards per prisoner would you suggest they use to maintain control? Are you willing to pay more taxes to support that ratio?

easiest way to up the gaurds per prisoner (though that is not necessarily the best way to reduce the extralegal horrors of prisons - the concept itself is largely the problem) is to end the war on drugs and related bullshit. bam, we just reduced the prison population by more than 65%. that should get the g's per p to better levels.

now if only we could get away from the fact that any time you institutionalize a system of power and control, it automatically leads to horrendous abuses by those with the power against those without it.

the state is just another gang.
The guards in the American prison system are the biggest problem for the inmates. Not just because they enforce the rules, either.
If getting high is more important than your life, you'll be more than happy in an American prison. Any drug you want is there, just down the hall. And there are many, MANY ways of acquiring them, very few of which are sexual.
I'm always amused by those experts who claim the barter system is an ancient form of commerce. It's alive and well, my friends, in the prisons around the world. Administrators of prisons like to complain of the drugs being brought into their facilities by visitors. BS!
The scale of the drug trade in American prisons could not possibly be sustained by visitors smuggling them in, or inmates sneaking them in.
The main drug dealer where I was incarcerated, was also the high school friend of a guard there. You should have seen his car, his boat. All matching jet black. If you were his bud you could wash them for him.

Well, there are lots of people that I wish ill on. Take Marines for example. I could care less what manner of death takes them, since they knew the job was dangerous when they took it.I switched 1 word.. Hope you like it Sierra ...have some of your own Turkey and Happy Thanks giving :D

this was the unedited post:
Well, there are lots of people that I wish ill on. Take insurgents for example. I could care less what manner of death takes them, since they knew the job was dangerous when they took it.

It strikes me as a very North American thing in the Western perspective. Those sorts of attitudes are very rare here - I've never heard or seen anyone talk about "knulla mig i arslet fängelser," which would be the equivalent of "(federal) pound-me-in-the-ass prison."

I see it as just another way to dehumanise and devalue people, so that their human rights can be ignored and the be demeaned without hurting a self-imposed image of righteousness. "They're criminal, so they don't deserve basic human rights."

It is of course a deeply unethical and immoral stance.

Couldn't have put it better myself...

When your in prision, you have NO rights at all, including the right to not be raped. Also, if you knew you were going to be raped in prision if you committed a crime, would you think twice about committing a crime? Of course.

Remember people

Detering Criminals > Rehabilitating Criminals.

When your in prision, you have NO rights at all, including the right to not be raped. Also, if you knew you were going to be raped in prision if you committed a crime, would you think twice about committing a crime? Of course.

Remember people

Detering Criminals > Rehabilitating Criminals.
Hasn't the death penalty, the ultimate deterrence, shown itself not to be a deterrence at all?

I would think that the Bill of Rights stating people cannot be subjected to "cruel and unusual punishment" kind of implies that the justice system isn't for deterrence and that criminals do still have some rights.

So do you wish ill on american soldiers then? Do you not care what manner of death takes them, since they knew the job was dangerous when they took it? You wouldn't mind if I, or any other american soldier for that manner, were caught by insurgents, and tortured and/or shot to death?

Im not talking about what actually happens, but what you feel "ok" with. Unless I'm vastly misinterpreting you, you are saying you don't mind if we kill insurgents, etc. Either you should feel the same way for american troops, or you have a big double standard.

You're sickening.

I don't have a double standard at all. When I was a soldier in combat, I knew the job was dangerous when I took it. That's why insurgents are there - to try and kill us. So they should expect to be killed in return.

I know that the insurgents haven't been too nice to any of their captives - nearly all of whom end up dead on al-Jazeera after having their head cut off over a roughly 45 second effort.

Do you actually believe that people in combat give a flying hoot about your sense of ethics and morality? They don't. If you're actually shooting at people and they are shooting at you, you don't care how many of them you kill or how you do it. You just do it, because if you don't, you'll be dead and probably get a few of your friends killed.

I have no regrets at all about any of the people I shot - because they shot at me first. I gave them more than enough chances to stop shooting before I killed them. And no, I didn't wound anyone - they died.

When your in prision, you have NO rights at all, including the right to not be raped. Also, if you knew you were going to be raped in prision if you committed a crime, would you think twice about committing a crime? Of course.

Remember people

Detering Criminals > Rehabilitating Criminals.
Let's start from human rights, shall we..? I shall continue after shoveling the bullshit you threw our way...

I know that the insurgents haven't been too nice to any of their captives - nearly all of whom end up dead on al-Jazeera after having their head cut off over a roughly 45 second effort.

source?

Prison isn't about rehabilitation. It's about punishment. How do you rehabilitate them? Threathen their survival. That teaches them a lesson. Cuddingly them doesn't do shit, you make them spoiled. Give them the hard life. Make them make their own houses, sow their own fields, harvest their own food. Chain-gangs, shitty ass conditions. You're in prison now.

You put yourself in that position. Time to deal with the consequences. You reap what you sow.

They earned it.

(BTW, No Cruel and Unusual Punishment is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Punishment is fucking punishment if it ISN'T cruel and unusual!)

Prison isn't about rehabilitation. It's about punishment. How do you rehabilitate them? Threathen their survival. That teaches them a lesson. Cuddingly them doesn't do shit, you make them spoiled. Give them the hard life. Make them make their own houses, sow their own fields, harvest their own food. Chain-gangs, shitty ass conditions. You're in prison now.

You put yourself in that position. Time to deal with the consequences. You reap what you sow.

They earned it.

(BTW, No Cruel and Unusual Punishment is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Punishment is fucking punishment if it ISN'T cruel and unusual!)
And if they don't do life...? Hilarious to see how they cope when outside again.

Rape is not supposed to be a part of justice.

Of course not. (And nor is an innocent man getting killed. ;))

Of course, both seem to happen anyway.


I don't think enough is done to protect prisoners in jail. No, I don't mean making it all nice and cushy and getting them porn mags...I mean protecting their lives, their health, and preventing them from being raped.

The only solutions are increased guards on duty, decreased personal freedoms, decreased privacy - all of which have their obvious downsides. Or? You have solution?

And if they don't do life...? Hilarious to see how they cope when outside again.

That's why you have chain-gangs, etc. It teaches them how to work together. And that, like in life, sometimes you get fucked over.

Nobody deserves to be raped. It must never be considered good or even tolerable. It's always wrong, no matter how you slice it.

Hasn't the death penalty, the ultimate deterrence, shown itself not to be a deterrence at all?

I would think that the Bill of Rights stating people cannot be subjected to "cruel and unusual punishment" kind of implies that the justice system isn't for deterrence and that criminals do still have some rights.

Of course it's not a damned deterent! But it detered people in the Middle Ages, in the Renaissance, in the Scientic Revolution... Why?

It was public. I swear, you put on one live execution, and EVERYONE will be so outraged and disgusted they'll be an uproar!

And they'll also be so frightened out of their innocent little minds they'd never even consider murder.

Unless they weren't human enough to be outraged. Then they're just animals. And like any pet that's really sick. You put it down.

That's why you have chain-gangs, etc. It teaches them how to work together. And that, like in life, sometimes you get fucked over.
Uhhh, I'm sorry... After they have done their time, you'd chain them up again..?

I'm talking about the time they are released back to society. You know that happens... after they have done their time and all...
Ready to society much after Empryian prison time? You reckon?

Of course it's not a damned deterent! But it detered people in the Middle Ages, in the Renaissance, in the Scientic Revolution... Why?
Says who? You?
It was public. I swear, you put on one live execution, and EVERYONE will be so outraged and disgusted they'll be an uproar!
I think you're right in this last two supposition, anyway. Even if it's not in the way you're supposing.

Let's not execute people publicly and get our collective jollies someplace else, yes? A large proportion of the population is already conditioned to accept unacceptable levels of violence in the name of entertainment. Let's take care not to blur the lines between entertainment, justice, and unmitigated bloodlust, now shall we?:rolleyes:

Says who? You?

I think you're right in this last two supposition, anyway. Even if it's not in the way you're supposing.

Let's not execute people publicly and get our collective jollies someplace else, yes? A large proportion of the population is already conditioned to accept unacceptable levels of violence in the name of entertainment. Let's take care not to blur the lines between entertainment, justice, and unmitigated bloodlust, now shall we?:rolleyes:

Yes, if it's so conditioned, why don't we see such excessive amounts of violence in society at large? You don't see it in society at large, you see it in small, quarrentined communities, and those violence problems can be attributed to many greater causes than 'violence in the media'.

Have you ever sat in the corner in Timeout during class? Nobody wants to be that child! Public punishment deters other children from doing that action which got him put in the corner. Telling little children not to be 'bad' only goes so far.

Embarassment is SO MUCH MORE of a deterent than telling people not to do something. When you're hitting on a girl, (or guy for that matter, I don't know your gender and or sexual preference), and you do something stupid, you're embarassed! And guess what, you're not going to do that again, unless you don't notice that what you're doing is wrong. Which is why bad habits are 'bad habits'. They're disgusting actions that don't embarass you but disgust everyone else. Like picking your nose. People eventually shun you because of your bad habits. And so you have two choices A) to continue to be shunned or B) change your ways.

Yes, if it's so conditioned, why don't we see such excessive amounts of violence in society at large? You don't see it in society at large, you see it in small, quarrentined communities, and those violence problems can be attributed to many greater causes than 'violence in the media'.

Have you ever sat in the corner in Timeout during class? Nobody wants to be that child! Public punishment deters other children from doing that action which got him put in the corner. Telling little children not to be 'bad' only goes so far.

Embarassment is SO MUCH MORE of a deterent than telling people not to do something. When you're hitting on a girl, (or guy for that matter, I don't know your gender and or sexual preference), and you do something stupid, you're embarassed! And guess what, you're not going to do that again, unless you don't notice that what you're doing is wrong. Which is why bad habits are 'bad habits'. They're disgusting actions that don't embarass you but disgust everyone else. Like picking your nose. People eventually shun you because of your bad habits. And so you have two choices A) to continue to be shunned or B) change your ways.
Does not compute at all. Please say you are not comparing high school (life) behaviour to prison (life) behaviour ...

People are <snip> rather twisted.
Amen....
(double meaning fully intended)

Does not compute at all. Please say you are not comparing high school behaviour to prison behaviour...

All behavior is linked. Everything revolves around survival instinct. Being shunned in a communal society is bad, because your chances or survival are lowered. Which is why children being removed from the social circle and being put into the corner is so horrible for them. Which is also why we dislike 'loners' so much and 'pity' those who can't find friends. It makes their existance less meaningful, and ultimately their 'survival' less likely. Their survival both physically, through procreation, and their survival mentally, through remembering.

Which is also why publicly shunning criminals is a better deterent than just putting them in a prison far away. Nobody really 'knows' that they were away. Which is why the Registered-Sex Offender laws are so controversial. It brings back public punishment. They will ALWAYS be known for their crimes. And those that have come to terms with their actions will NEVER do it again. Imagine that you will forever be known as a child-molester. Just imagine it. And imagine that wherever you move, your neighbors will be notified of that.

Imagine.

It makes you never want to do it.

All right. I didn't know I was talking to a comedian.

All right. I didn't know I was talking to a comedian.

I didn't know the idea of molesting little children was supposed to be funny...

Good to know I don't agree with you on that point.

I didn't know the idea of molesting little children was supposed to be funny...

Good to know I don't agree with you on that point.
LOL

What are you on about?

LOL

What are you on about?

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory. I was being just slightly facetious. You happened to comment I was a comedian and therefore joking, I quipped back that you thought molesting little children was funny. I'm pretty sure you don't think molesting little children is funny... right? (except at Neverland Ranch, where is says you have to be 4' and under to ride Michael...).

:D

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory. I was being just slightly facetious. You happened to comment I was a comedian and therefore joking, I quipped back that you thought molesting little children was funny. I'm pretty sure you don't think molesting little children is funny... right? (except at Neverland Ranch, where is says you have to be 4' and under to ride Michael...).

:D
Oh right. That's ok then.

Maybe I better call this a night. I tried to quote studies for you... but I'm far too drunk to do that. (Typing this message was hard... me t's and d's go barmy)

"Prison isn't about rehabilitation. It's about punishment. How do you rehabilitate them? Threathen their survival. That teaches them a lesson. Cuddingly them doesn't do shit, you make them spoiled. Give them the hard life. Make them make their own houses, sow their own fields, harvest their own food. Chain-gangs, shitty ass conditions. You're in prison now."

has it occured to you that prison is more about protecting innocents than anything else. anyways, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" -Mahatma Ghandi. Please realise that it's a bad idea to hurt somebody, in anyway, except in self protection, aka, to save your skin because somebody's hurting you. Notice that hurting people does not do anything to make them repent, guilt tripping them is much better. Look as South Africa, and the truth and recconciliation commision. It's best to give good educations, and beat, not literally, into people that crime is bad. It's been proven that the better educated and better treated people tend to turn to crime less. let's get to the roots of the problem.

People are always going on about prison, and prison rape, and how criminals should expect it and deserve it. But sheesh people! Not all people in jail have done something truly heinous, and EVEN IF THEY DID...prisons are not meant to be places of sexual torture. Rape is not supposed to be a part of justice.


Has anyone mentioned Donny the Punk yet?

has it occured to you that prison is more about protecting innocents than anything else. anyways, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" -Mahatma Ghandi. Please realise that it's a bad idea to hurt somebody, in anyway, except in self protection, aka, to save your skin because somebody's hurting you.

Yes, somebody is hurting me. This criminal is hurting me. He is hurting society. Killing him is self-protection. It is self-defense. It is permanently making sure that he can NEVER hurt again. He existance means that there is a possiblity of him hurting someone else. By eliminating his existance, that's one less person to worry about hurting anyone. Your point is moot. Prison is about protecting the innocent, as you said. The Death Penalty is the ultimate protection of the innocent.

And, btw Ghandi was kind of wrong. If there is an odd # of people, there is going to be 1 person left with eyes :). And seeing as how nothing is ever even or fair, there is probably an odd #.

Oh my dear sweet Jesus. If I read nothing but the first page of this topic... (which I did) I would SERIOUSLY think that you are trying to make us think that we SENTENCE prisoners to rape.

Prisons are built for the safety of their occupants and their staff. RAPE IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE IN A PRISON, and prison personnel do all they can to prevent things along those lines. Blame the prisoners who rape other prisoners. Not the prisons themselves.

Oh my dear sweet Jesus. If I read nothing but the first page of this topic... (which I did) I would SERIOUSLY think that you are trying to make us think that we SENTENCE prisoners to rape.

Prisons are built for the safety of their occupants and their staff. RAPE IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE IN A PRISON, and prison personnel do all they can to prevent things along those lines. Blame the prisoners who rape other prisoners. Not the prisons themselves.

Maybe we should sentence them to rape... Rape a woman? You get raped.

I think it'd teach him the error of his ways real quick.

Let's start from human rights, shall we..? I shall continue after shoveling the bullshit you threw our way...

Bullshit huh?

I guess detering criminals is "bullshit"? I guess wanting to make some of the most horrible members of society to suffer is bullshit? I guess you dont know what its like when a criminal hurts your family member, because if you did, you wouldnt be saying this stuff.

RAPE IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE IN A PRISON, and prison personnel do all they can to prevent things along those lines. Blame the prisoners who rape other prisoners. Not the prisons themselves.
Then those personnel are doing a horrible job. Maybe we need to import prison guards from Western Europe.

Then those personnel are doing a horrible job. Maybe we need to import prison guards from Western Europe.

Even worse. They're more left wing than our prison guards. They'd probably bring them in oreos and milk. Let's import some Stalinesque prison guards. :)

Bullshit huh?

I guess detering criminals is "bullshit"? I guess wanting to make some of the most horrible members of society to suffer is bullshit? I guess you dont know what its like when a criminal hurts your family member, because if you did, you wouldnt be saying this stuff.
Yes. Bullshit.
You asking for some punishment beyond the sentence imposed by the court of law is bullshit.

I don't even have to comment your tearjerker post, do i?

Even worse. They're more left wing than our prison guards. They'd probably bring them in oreos and milk. Let's import some Stalinesque prison guards. :)
In Canada, I believe it is now forbidden for guards in high security prisons to wear protective vests. It was determined that any clothing that would protect the guards from stabbings would be send messages to the prisoners that they were considered dangerous. If they aren't dangerous, what in the world are they doing in prison?

Prisons are built for the safety of their occupants and their staff. RAPE IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE IN A PRISON, and prison personnel do all they can to prevent things along those lines. Blame the prisoners who rape other prisoners. Not the prisons themselves.

shame that the staff actually perpetrate more rapes of prisoners than other prisoners then, no? according to the u.s. bureau of justice statistics (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/svrca04.htm):
"Expressed in terms of rates, there were 3.15 allegations of sexual violence per 1,000 inmates held in 2004 (table 3). Rates of staff sexual misconduct were the highest with 1.31 allegations per 1,000 inmates, followed by inmate-on-inmate nonconsensual sexual acts, (1.16 allegations per 1,000)."



the stanford prison experiment tells you everything you need to know about why the institution of prisons themselves are to blame for the problems inherent in prison systems

Even worse. They're more left wing than our prison guards. They'd probably bring them in oreos and milk. Let's import some Stalinesque prison guards. :)
Our prison guards are left wing? Anything to back that up?

"Yes, somebody is hurting me. This criminal is hurting me. He is hurting society. Killing him is self-protection. It is self-defense. It is permanently making sure that he can NEVER hurt again. He existance means that there is a possiblity of him hurting someone else. By eliminating his existance, that's one less person to worry about hurting anyone. Your point is moot. Prison is about protecting the innocent, as you said. The Death Penalty is the ultimate protection of the innocent.

And, btw Ghandi was kind of wrong. If there is an odd # of people, there is going to be 1 person left with eyes . And seeing as how nothing is ever even or fair, there is probably an odd"


That's premtive, but seeing as you cannot be sure that they will continue to hurt people, you cannot know you are doing the right thing. And, as history teaches us, everytime someone takes on the premtive stance the entire deal ends in major bloodshed and leads to a lot of unnessecary bother. But the point with an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, is that revenge is illogical, because peace makes the economy work better, the society work better. Logically there's no reason to hurt/rape people for any reason, let alone in prison.

I don't have a double standard at all. When I was a soldier in combat, I knew the job was dangerous when I took it. That's why insurgents are there - to try and kill us. So they should expect to be killed in return.

I know that the insurgents haven't been too nice to any of their captives - nearly all of whom end up dead on al-Jazeera after having their head cut off over a roughly 45 second effort.

Do you actually believe that people in combat give a flying hoot about your sense of ethics and morality? They don't. If you're actually shooting at people and they are shooting at you, you don't care how many of them you kill or how you do it. You just do it, because if you don't, you'll be dead and probably get a few of your friends killed.

I have no regrets at all about any of the people I shot - because they shot at me first. I gave them more than enough chances to stop shooting before I killed them. And no, I didn't wound anyone - they died.

Nobody is talking about combat, we are talking about prison. So if there is any misunderstanding, its on you.

I took what you said as insurgents we capture, we can kill them off, because their job is dangerous. And if so, can they do the same to our soldiers, morally?

Again, if your point was about combat, all you have managed to do is muddle up the conversation with horridly irrelevant things.

Just in case everyone was taking this topic seriously. Click this.......

http://sounds1.neilrogers.com/sounds/dat001/192.mp3

Just in case everyone was taking this topic seriously. Click this.......

http://sounds1.neilrogers.com/sounds/dat001/192.mp3
Speechless...absolutely speechless. Where the hell did you find this?

Speechless...absolutely speechless. Where the hell did you find this?

I knew the song from the Bob and Tom Show, and just did a Google search on it to see if I could find it online somewhere. And lo and behold, I found it. The song is called "Prisoner Of Love", don't know who recorded it. Utterly hilarious, though. Especially the very end. (so to speak)

Well, rape is never right. But, I feel that a convict has essentially broken the social contract, and as such, already has many rights eliminated or reduced by law.

I would probably address this by formalizing it as part of the official punishment - that if you are a convicted child molester or rapist, other prisoners are free to rape you as much as they like.

Same for first degree murder - if you're doing a life sentence for it, and another prisoner happens to kill you, oh well.

Deep Kimchi has deep and abiding problems with the Consitution, particularly the 5th and 8th Amendments.

I say yet again, revenge is never, or almost never, a good idea. prison is no exception. people are there to atone for crimes, not to commit them. the constitution is right, if ambigious. unfortunately rape does not seem to be unusual, but it is quite cruel. I'd rather be murdered than raped, being raped is my worst nightmare. IT IS NEVER JUSTIFIABLE TO IN ANY WAY SEXUALLY HARRASS OTHER PEOPLE, THAT INCLUDES RAPE. nobody with any sense of morality should think otherwise. From a purely logical view if you put a rapist in prison, and then you rape them, aren't you doing exactly what you put them in prison for? If then you are put in prison, and somebody rapes you, everyone eventually goes to prison. Remember, two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts and a u-turn do.

It isn't that they deserve it or that its right, its that I just don't care. I would say most people don't care. They have been taken out of our society for a reason, and now they have to make do with what society they can get.

Firstly, I have little to no sympathy for criminals. However, prison rape is never and never will be acceptable. Rape is not an acceptable form of punishment, and punishment should never be dealt out by the prisoners themselves. It violates the whole idea of our justice system.

But I believe most people use the "they deserve it" argument because they need some excuse, some justification. Why? Well, what else do you do when you have no idea how to solve a problem? Rationalize it away.

All possible suggestions to solve the problem of prison rape are either horrendously expensive (restructuring prisons, adding guards) or have other consequences. (Isolation over several years=madness)

I guess we could chemically castrate every incoming prisoner, but I doubt many people would go for that. Eh, no one listens to the anti-sexual...

It isn't that they deserve it or that its right, its that I just don't care.

if the idea of rape doesn't anger you much then why would you bother to put rapists in jail to begin with?

if the idea of rape doesn't anger you much then why would you bother to put rapists in jail to begin with?

It isn't the rape that I don't care about, it is the victim.

All possible suggestions to solve the problem of prison rape are either horrendously expensive (restructuring prisons, adding guards) or have other consequences. (Isolation over several years=madness)

not as expensive as you would think

I was watching a MSNBC program about prisons and they toured some where there were no reports of sexual assault at all - their secret you might ask? all areas of the prison are highly visible; there is no where to hide and every inch of a prison is within the sights of a nice man with an M-14 - attempt to sexually assault (or assault in any way for that matter) another inmate and they will shoot you.

besides, what ever the cost we as a nation have an obligation to bear it

It isn't the rape that I don't care about, it is the victim.
How can you say that? Someone is in jail for...say...car robbery. You don't care that their sentence may unofficially include rape?

I believe you can tell a lot about a society by the way they treat their prisoners.

http://www.spr.org/

I don't know if this site has been brought up before but either ways its worth a mention

though they can be on the silly side of liberal every now and again they are decently organized and they're trying to help president Bush fight this horror

How can you say that?

Because I don't really care. It is sad that it happens, and I wish it wouldn't, but truth is that most people are like me and really don't care that much. Hell, this is the first time I have seen this topic on NS so I know it isn't a topic that people really get worked up about.

What you have is a large group of people who have already established that they don't abide by society's laws being forced to create their own close knit society. There is not much you can do about the results, and therefore, I don't care too much.

Have we proposed a decent method for stopping prison rape?

http://www.spr.org/

I don't know if this site has been brought up before but either ways its worth a mention

though they can be on the silly side of liberal every now and again they are decently organized and they're trying to help president Bush fight this horror
Interesting link...I'm glad someone gives a shit about this. I just don't get this attitude. These are not murderers and rapists getting raped most of the time...it's some punk who got busted selling dope etc. And you think about what rape does to a person for a minute...but maybe that's the problem right there. Maybe people figure that once you are put in prison, you aren't a person anymore?

Prisoners are people. Prison is part of the social contract...it's what society has decided should be the punishment for breaking certain laws. But prisoners are still members of society, and although their rights are limited, they are not removed entirely.

Have we proposed a decent method for stopping prison rape?
Yes. Getting people to give a shit. Apparently it's not going to happen.

Have we proposed a decent method for stopping prison rape?

guards? they seem to work pretty well

you fail to remember - the vast vast majority of these people will be let back out into the world - rehabilitate them and we will all be better off for it - subject them to decades of hate, sexual abuse and time to work out/learn about better ways to commit crime and see what happens

Yes. Getting people to give a shit. Apparently it's not going to happen.

Well, actually getting people out here to give a shit would do nothing. You have to make prisoners give a shit to stop it.

Interesting...on the site http://www.spr.org/ , there is some info about the US Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003...signed by George W...

And Vitt...that is fucking ridiculous. Getting the prisoners to care? How is that going to help? They aren't the ones designing the prisons or staffing them with people who not only encourage but PARTICIPATE in the sexual violence.

guards? they seem to work pretty well

Each extra guard is going to cost another $50,000 a year, at the least, I would suppose. Even then you have to wonder what they will accomplish.

you fail to remember - the vast vast majority of these people will be let back out into the world - rehabilitate them and we will all be better off for it

Rehabilitation is only as good as the surroundings, and once the person gets out of jail, and they are back in the same situation as before, rehabilitation goes right out the window.

subject them to decades of hate, sexual abuse and time to work out/learn about better ways to commit crime and see what happens

This is the surroundings they have outside of jail, too. It is how they ended up in jail in the first place.

And just how do you suppose we would separate them from hate, violence, and crime, while they are in prison? Need I remind you who they share the prison with?

If I was in charge of a country, one of my policies would be that prison has to make people more civilised. If prisoners rape or try to rape another, they get solitary confinement for, say, half of the length of their sentence.

Well, actually getting people out here to give a shit would do nothing. You have to make prisoners give a shit to stop it.

if prisoners gave a shit we wouldn't have prisons

I pay a slice of my tax money to take these people and either A - make them productive members of society or B - hold them for the rest of their lives

WTF is going on with that money? I'm not paying for johnny McSodomite to have a good time and then come out as an even bigger threat to me and my family

And Vitt...that is fucking ridiculous. Getting the prisoners to care? How is that going to help? They aren't the ones designing the prisons or staffing them with people who not only encourage but PARTICIPATE in the sexual violence.

The people on the outside can do nothing to stop the rape on the inside. They can only put pressure on those on the inside to stop the rape.

So they put pressure on the system to make is shitty for prisoners who rape, but how much much shittier can it get?

As for the guards who take part or encourage it, throw them in jail, too.

if prisoners gave a shit we wouldn't have prisons

Exactly.

I pay a slice of my tax money to take these people and either A - make them productive members of society or B - hold them for the rest of their lives

WTF is going on with that money? I'm not paying for johnny McSodomite to have a good time and then come out as an even bigger threat to me and my family

You are paying money to keep them out of society, and hopefully discourage others from repeating their actions.

Each extra guard is going to cost another $50,000 a year, at the least, I would suppose. Even then you have to wonder what they will accomplish.

actually its $30,000 but that is neither here nor there

A - what kind of a society condones rape? how can we in good concious allow this to happen to other human beings. if we do human rights are meaningless

B - guards can do a whole lot when we let them, again, some prisons in this country have no reports of sexual violence because the guards allowed to shoot to kill if it occures

C - do it right and all the money spent will be more than made up for it the pisoners don't come back but rather get jobs and pay taxes

Rehabilitation is only as good as the surroundings, and once the person gets out of jail, and they are back in the same situation as before, rehabilitation goes right out the window.

they're going to be there for a while, you could teach them a trade

And just how do you suppose we would separate them from hate, violence, and crime, while they are in prison? Need I remind you who they share the prison with?

again, much of my tax money goes to nice men with firearms - there are ways to control prisons some people are just uncomfortable with them or with the idea that we would expend the effort to keep prisoners from being sexually or physically asaulted

People are always going on about prison, and prison rape, and how criminals should expect it and deserve it. But sheesh people! Not all people in jail have done something truly heinous, and EVEN IF THEY DID...prisons are not meant to be places of sexual torture. Rape is not supposed to be a part of justice.

I remember an anti-fascist meeting where one person, in a group of people concerned about human rights, made a comment that he hoped a local group of nazis got arrested and raped in prison. So much for human rights! They should apply, even to people you HATE.

I don't think enough is done to protect prisoners in jail. No, I don't mean making it all nice and cushy and getting them porn mags...I mean protecting their lives, their health, and preventing them from being raped. That doesn't mean I love crime, or love criminals. But this casual idea that it's what criminals deserve is rather twisted.
No rape should not be allowed

And to any man or woman that thinks "well they deserve it"
I say why allow others to do (and put themselfs at risk and be subject to reprisal,legal and other wise) when you are unwilling to do it yourself? (punish not rape)

If you think that prisioners deserve more then they are geting sentancef for why the fuck do you not revise punishment rules instead of letting other men or woman do what you are unwilling to do

The people on the outside can do nothing to stop the rape on the inside. They can only put pressure on those on the inside to stop the rape.

So they put pressure on the system to make is shitty for prisoners who rape, but how much much shittier can it get? It can't just be about punishing rapists...though that would be a great idea too. It needs to be about prevention...like you said, here are a group of people who have violated society's norms. You are putting them into an environment where they are supposed to be controlled...so control them! Make it harder to rape, make it harder to abuse...and keep prison doing what it's supposed to do...removing criminals from society for a time as punishment for their crime. That can be done, without allowing rape and other abuse to run rampant.

As for the guards who take part or encourage it, throw them in jail, too. I support that...but who is going to believe a convict over a correctional officer? Cameras everywhere would be nice.

You are paying money to keep them out of society, and hopefully discourage others from repeating their actions.

if that was all we were after we would just kill them and get it over with

but we are a Christian nation, we are a great nation and as such we strive for greater things

From the same stoprape site...a bit of info on why rape is hard to deal with in prisons:

In short, the response to prisoner rape has been indifferent and irresponsible. Reporting procedures, where they exist, are often ineffectual, and complaints by prisoners about sexual assault are routinely ignored by prison staff and government authorities.22

Prisoner rape occurs most easily when no one is around to see or hear, particularly at night and in hidden areas that are difficult to monitor.23 Inmates complain about a lack of vigilance, even reporting that screams for help have gone unanswered.

Punishment for prisoner rape is rare.24 Few public prosecutors concern themselves with crimes against inmates, and instead leave such problems to the discretion of prison authorities. As a result, perpetrators of prisoner rape seldom face charges. Staff members who sexually abuse inmates are rarely held accountable, facing only light administrative sanctions, if any. In fact, some female inmates have reported retaliation from corrections officers against whom reports of sexual misconduct have been lodged.

Prisoner rape has been used in some cases as a tool to punish inmates for misbehavior. Male inmates have testified that they were forced into cells with known sexual predators as a form of punishment for unrelated misconduct.25

Potential victims of prisoner rape are routinely separated from the rest of the prison population in administrative segregation (similar to solitary confinement) as a putative solution to prisoner rape. Such isolation is extremely difficult to endure, discourages reports of abuse, and effectively punishes victims.

Prisoner rape occurs most easily when no one is around to see or hear, particularly at night and in hidden areas that are difficult to monitor.23 Inmates complain about a lack of vigilance, even reporting that screams for help have gone unanswered.

it sounds like that could be fixed with a minimum cost to the taxpayer with results that would be more than beificial to the whole country

it sounds like that could be fixed with a minimum cost to the taxpayer with results that would be more than beificial to the whole country
If the general attitudes you can see in this thread...and in RL are any indication, it's not that there aren't solutions...and fairly inexpensive ones at that, but rather that, as I suggested at the beginning, that it's somehow 'okay'. Not caring, in my mind, is tacit agreement.

A - what kind of a society condones rape? how can we in good concious allow this to happen to other human beings. if we do human rights are meaningless

Who is condoning it?

B - guards can do a whole lot when we let them, again, some prisons in this country have no reports of sexual violence because the guards allowed to shoot to kill if it occures

Then go for it, make it national policy.

C - do it right and all the money spent will be more than made up for it the pisoners don't come back but rather get jobs and pay taxes

Now you are grasping, stick to the moral side of this, because the practical justification falls flat.

they're going to be there for a while, you could teach them a trade

Sure, if they so desire. That doesn't guarantee rehabilitation.

again, much of my tax money goes to nice men with firearms - there are ways to control prisons some people are just uncomfortable with them or with the idea that we would expend the effort to keep prisoners from being sexually or physically asaulted

Sure, we spend enough money so that we can have constant supervision, can you give me a cost on that?

if that was all we were after we would just kill them and get it over with

but we are a Christian nation, we are a great nation and as such we strive for greater things
Yeah you know because christianity is the only drive to not kill off our prisioners :rolleyes:

If that were true why does it seem to be the democratic party the one (seemingly) less backed by hardcore christians and fundies the one usualy pusing to remove the death penality?

(personaly because I think the drive to reduce death goes beyond political or religious bounds)

if that was all we were after we would just kill them and get it over with

That would be a ridiculous punishment for nearly all crimes.

but we are a Christian nation, we are a great nation and as such we strive for greater things

I hope you are being facetious.

Who is condoning it?

we are, as a nation

Now you are grasping, stick to the moral side of this, because the practical justification falls flat.

the hell I am, we are wasting billions of dollars on re-encarseration

Sure, if they so desire. That doesn't guarantee rehabilitation.

where as locking them in cells 23 hours a day to be sexaully asaulted more or less guarantees that they will be back

Sure, we spend enough money so that we can have constant supervision, can you give me a cost on that?

less than what we're spending now

Sure, we spend enough money so that we can have constant supervision, can you give me a cost on that?
Do that work yourself...contact the prisons that were mentioned in the US that seem to have lower instances of sexual abuse.

Just because people don't have a plan already mapped out, with all the angles worked out, including a cost analysis, does not mean it isn't possible and that's why it hasn't been done. This thread is about ATTITUDES not about 'if you don't know how it's going to work, then shut up'.

If that were true why does it seem to be the democratic party the one (seemingly) less backed by hardcore christians and fundies the one usualy pusing to remove the death penality?

hate to go all partisan on you but while they press for the end of the death penalty they don't seem to give a damn about prison abuse

I don't know why the rightyrights heart the death penalty but they're we're talking about a couple dosen, maybe a couple hundred people a year

thousands die each year from HIV the get while being raped, not to mention the whole rape thing itself

so if you want to help prisoners the republicans are the ones to go with here

It can't just be about punishing rapists...though that would be a great idea too. It needs to be about prevention...like you said, here are a group of people who have violated society's norms. You are putting them into an environment where they are supposed to be controlled...so control them! Make it harder to rape, make it harder to abuse...and keep prison doing what it's supposed to do...removing criminals from society for a time as punishment for their crime. That can be done, without allowing rape and other abuse to run rampant.

I support that...but who is going to believe a convict over a correctional officer? Cameras everywhere would be nice.

From what you just posted it does seem like it is a matter of punishment. Punishment for malignant and negligent guards.

hate to go all partisan on you but while they press for the end of the death penalty they don't seem to give a damn about prison abuse

I don't know why the rightyrights heart the death penalty but they're we're talking about a couple dosen, maybe a couple hundred people a year

thousands die each year from HIV the get while being raped, not to mention the whole rape thing itself

so if you want to help prisoners the republicans are the ones to go with here
Oh and in what way have the right differentiated themselfs in the issue of prision rape?
Personaly both sides have shown suprizing lack of push to end it

the hell I am, we are wasting billions of dollars on re-encarseration

The key to stopping re-incarceration is outside of prison not inside of prison. These people are getting out of prison and going right back into the same situation that got them in in the first place. So rehabilitation within prison is pointless.

where as locking them in cells 23 hours a day to be sexaully asaulted more or less guarantees that they will be back

If that doesn't keep them from coming back then what will? (Just making a point against rehabilitation, not condoning sexual assault)

less than what we're spending now

Great, then lets do it.

Oh and in what way have the right differentiated themselfs in the issue of prision rape?
Personaly both sides have shown suprizing lack of push to end it

I'm not saying that either side is chamioning the issue but at the federal level W did pass the prion rape elimination act and in my state the republicans are the only ones that give a damn (some democrat's brother made off with the prison medical funds)

If that doesn't keep them from coming back then what will? (Just making a point against rehabilitation, not condoning sexual assault)

back in the day (before hippies experimented with our prisons and we as a people decided to sexualise everything) re-encarseration rates were much lower - so while a depressed economy and all that stuff isn't helping rape clearly isn't either - men come out of prison broken body and soul, they fall back into crime because they don't think their lives matter anymore

Do that work yourself...contact the prisons that were mentioned in the US that seem to have lower instances of sexual abuse.

I doubt I will do that. Remember, I represent the "don't really care" side of the argument here.

Just because people don't have a plan already mapped out, with all the angles worked out, including a cost analysis, does not mean it isn't possible and that's why it hasn't been done. This thread is about ATTITUDES not about 'if you don't know how it's going to work, then shut up'.

My attitude has been laid out pretty well, and that last comment made it pretty clear. I think "If it's cheap fix it, if its going to cost me a bunch, fuck it."

back in the day (before hippies experimented with our prisons and we as a people decided to sexualise everything) re-encarseration rates were much lower - so while a depressed economy and all that stuff isn't helping rape clearly isn't either - men come out of prison broken body and soul, they fall back into crime because they don't think their lives matter anymore

I thought that was one of the principle reasons of actually going to prison in the first place.

My attitude has been laid out pretty well, and that last comment made it pretty clear. I think "If it's cheap fix it, if its going to cost me a bunch, fuck it."

you no longer have a right to complain when anyone above you steps on you for their own gain

you no longer have a right to complain when anyone above you steps on you for their own gain

We all have the right to complain, its just a question of whether people will listen to us. So I can go to the courts just like they can, and since I am not a criminal people will take me more seriously.

back in the day (before hippies experimented with our prisons and we as a people decided to sexualise everything) re-encarseration rates were much lower - so while a depressed economy and all that stuff isn't helping rape clearly isn't either - men come out of prison broken body and soul, they fall back into crime because they don't think their lives matter anymore
What is your margin of error (variable added last of course) for using "hippy experimentation" and "sexualizing everything" as predictors for the dependant "re-incarseration rates" ?

From what you just posted it does seem like it is a matter of punishment. Punishment for malignant and negligent guards.
No, not really...because it's only going to be a percentage of the guards who are actively involved in raping, or allowing rape to happen. I would imagine that in most cases, the layout of the prison makes it difficult to monitor and stop abuse. It can't just all be about negligent or criminal guards.

I doubt I will do that. Remember, I represent the "don't really care" side of the argument here.

My attitude has been laid out pretty well, and that last comment made it pretty clear. I think "If it's cheap fix it, if its going to cost me a bunch, fuck it."
Well, then forgive me if I don't run out and do a bunch of research to present you with a plan...because I'd prefer you give a shit based on the issue iteself, not the cost of the plan to deal with it.

And I just wanted to point out to people...prisoners are people. Yes, I've said it before, and it's a 'duh' thing to say, but seriously. Maybe you don't know anyone that's gone to prison...but I have. I've known many, and few of them were actually bad people. The majority were just people who did some stupid shit, and paid for it. Being taken away from your life, and put in a prison is a pretty harsh punishment. Justified, yes. Deserved, yes. But it's not the cushy life people seem to think it is. That should be it...but it isn't...there is often more. And it's generally the young ones, or the first timers that get targeted for abuse. You imagine now if your brother, your father, your uncle, a friend of yours, was sent to jail for some stupid mistake...and he got raped. Would it matter to you then?

I thought that was one of the principle reasons of actually going to prison in the first place.
What...making sure they come out broken in body and soul? Christ.

Forget it. You don't care. I guess you just need to make sure we understand that...well, consider it understood.

What...making sure they come out broken in body and soul? Christ.

Forget it. You don't care. I guess you just need to make sure we understand that...well, consider it understood.

No, no, no, I meant that apathy and not having any hope for one's life was the principle reason many people did end up in prison in the first place. Their outside situation was so bad that they felt that they had to result to crime.

That has been my point with this rehabilitation argument from the start. The situation and factors that caused the person to commit crime exist outside of prison, and when the person gets out of jail, they will likely return directly to that situation. This means that prison rehabilitation is largely pointless.

No, no, no, I meant that apathy and not having any hope for one's life was the principle reason many people did end up in prison in the first place. Their outside situation was so bad that they felt that they had to result to crime. Ahhh. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

That has been my point with this rehabilitation argument from the start. The situation and factors that caused the person to commit crime exist outside of prison, and when the person gets out of jail, they will likely return directly to that situation. This means that prison rehabilitation is largely pointless.
I agree with you there. I don't believe prisons are set up for rehabilitation, nor is rehabilitation truly their purpose...and I agree that it would be a bit beyond their scope even if that were the purpose. That's a huge problem, and I'm not about to tackle it....right now I'm more worried about the immediate problem of prisoners being abused.

No, no, no, I meant that apathy and not having any hope for one's life was the principle reason many people did end up in prison in the first place. Their outside situation was so bad that they felt that they had to result to crime.

That has been my point with this rehabilitation argument from the start. The situation and factors that caused the person to commit crime exist outside of prison, and when the person gets out of jail, they will likely return directly to that situation. This means that prison rehabilitation is largely pointless.

You're a big winner! Would you like to try for what's behind Door Number Two?

What happened to the times when you could send all your prisoners to Australia?

What happened to the times when you could send all your prisoners to Australia?

They formed their own government?

Has it occured to any of you that the problem might be deeper than just what's happening in prison. One of the problems is our society itself, it would cut down on the amount of people in prison in the first place if there was, say, better moral education in schools. Again, I make the point that better educated people, who have a trade turn to crime less often. Thus, educating people in prison would help get rid of prison rape. I wonder if all of those rapists are sexually frustrated.

I'm playing devil's advocate (from the rapists point of view) Well, I'm in prison, I am really sexually frustrated, and there are a lot of people who I'm even remotely attacted to that no one really cares about.

The trick (from my own point of view) would be to get people to care, outside the prison, then the government would be under pressure to stop prison rape, of course our current government doesn't respond to pressure, but that's beside the point

The thing is, it's very hard to regulate what happens inside a prison. There are so many prisoners but only a few guards. Prison guards try to do what they can when it comes to incidents such as this. However, they can't be everywhere. Besides its a prison that kind of stuff is going to happen. A lot of people don't report it because they are scared.

prisoners (specifically murderers, child molesters and the like) have denied the rights of others, and so in my eyes, they have no rights.

personally i beleive criminals like that should be slave labor. they don't benefit society at all rotting in a cell, but could help society by mining or building.

however, this beleif does not apply to most criminals who did something like, say, stole something from a thrift store.

People should be given second and third chances, it is possible for humans to change. If you do not ever give people the chance of forgiveness, you are denying all remaining humanity. I understand the convict gang idea, but only if rehabilitation does not work on that person.:eek: isn't that a novel idea?

because the whole system is a fucked up lie. it doesn't serve the purposes it's claimed to exist for, but serves other purposes entirely. clearly it should be possible to run prisons as a relatively safe place to be, given the amount of control the authorities have. the fact that it isn't tells you that they don't want it to be one. they want one filled with fear and the threat of extra punishment (legal or otherwise) and with the possibility of privileges and protection for those that cooperate with the established system.
I have 26 officers against 880 inmates. They live in two man cells, 50 man pods, and come out by pods for chow, rec, med line, etc. How am I going to terrorize them with 26 cans of pepper spray? As for extra punishment, we use a very strictly defined discipline system, any use of force is recorded, examined, and if need be, investigated by CIU for criminal wrongdoing. It is NOT possible to run a prison as a safe place. If you had ever worked in one, you would know.
it's actually the prison staff engaging in the rape of prisoners slightly more often than other prisoners.
The only way I can answer this, is as it relates to the AZ prison system, is the only cases of officers having sex with inmates are female officers/male inmates, and vice versa, and it is always consensual. Stating male officers rape male inmates, with the incredibly high prevalance of AIDS, HepC, and other diseases running through the prison syaytem, (mostly due to drug use OUTSIDE the walls), makes me say that is an out and out lie.
(cause that would involve actually looking and treating prisoners like human beings, which goes against the purpose of the prison system)
Question - were you an inmate, in what system?
The guards in the American prison system are the biggest problem for the inmates. Not just because they enforce the rules, either.
If getting high is more important than your life, you'll be more than happy in an American prison. Any drug you want is there, just down the hall. And there are many, MANY ways of acquiring them, very few of which are sexual.

The number one way contraband gets in is visitation, despite the metal detectors, background checks, and drug dogs. The number two, is, disgustingly, compromised staff. Yes, it happens, even as we try to sto it. Our own staff have to clear detectors and sniffers on the way in, too.
Also, contractors are adept at smuggling in anything. I have found maintenance toolboxes with fake bottoms, and coke cans resealed, with weed inside. Hell, a maintenance man took $700 to smuggle an inmate out in an A/C box some years ag - the pictures of the box are still in that unit's sallyport. That inmate was recaptured a few days later, too.
Prison isn't about rehabilitation. It's about punishment. How do you rehabilitate them? Threathen their survival. That teaches them a lesson. Cuddingly them doesn't do shit, you make them spoiled. Give them the hard life. Make them make their own houses, sow their own fields, harvest their own food. Chain-gangs, shitty ass conditions. You're in prison now.

Actualy, we are working hard to get away from that stereotype. Our new program is called "Parralell Universe", as 97% of all inmates WILL be released back into society. About 3% of violent criminals commit about 70% of violent crme, so we hope to actually reach some before it's too late. We require them to get jobs inside the walls, complete a GED, literacy, offer many classess on everthing from janitorial, masonry, upholstery, window factories, (ACI, great program, actually pays inmates minimum wage, and guerantes them a job when they get out.), among other things. there are those who you just can't reach, and those go to the SMUs, Central, or CB6. SMUIII will be built soon.
That's why you have chain-gangs, etc. It teaches them how to work together. And that, like in life, sometimes you get fucked over. A federal judge didn't like that, so we don't do it. Our off site work crews are unfettered, and with a few armed officers standing security, after the boundaries are very clearly defined by the staff to the inmates. Anyone going over the boundary will be considered escaping.
Prisons are built for the safety of their occupants and their staff. RAPE IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE IN A PRISON, and prison personnel do all they can to prevent things along those lines. Blame the prisoners who rape other prisoners. Not the prisons themselves.
Ah, thank you sir.
Then those personnel are doing a horrible job. Maybe we need to import prison guards from Western Europe.
Never. Why don't you go through the academy, work the floor, and then tell me what needs to be done to fix it? After all, you must know so much more than we who work here.
shame that the staff actually perpetrate more rapes of prisoners than other prisoners then, no? according to the u.s. bureau of justice statistics:
"Expressed in terms of rates, there were 3.15 allegations of sexual violence per 1,000 inmates held in 2004 (table 3). Rates of staff sexual misconduct were the highest with 1.31 allegations per 1,000 inmates, followed by inmate-on-inmate nonconsensual sexual acts, (1.16 allegations per 1,000)."
Not my prison, not my shift, not my staff. There is no way we would even consider something like that. Male officers who have CONSENSUAL sex with female inmates are fired, and brought up on felony charges. Once again, with the ratio of communicable diseases, it is just not a real factor here. If they are interviewing inmates for these numbers, then it becomes self explanatory. BS.
Our prison guards are left wing?
Moslty Republican and Libertarian, with a sprinkling of Deomcrats and greenies, last time I asked.
all areas of the prison are highly visible; there is no where to hide and every inch of a prison is within the sights of a nice man with an M-14 -
Sounds like the SHU at Pelican Bay - built from ideas from our SMU1.
If prisoners rape or try to rape another, they get solitary confinement for, say, half of the length of their sentence.
We do prosecute with street charges, but single cell in the SMU or CBs can be virtually impossible - they are always full. We need more lock down prisons, unfortunately.
Want to relieve overcrowding? kick out all the Mexican National inmates back across the border, to do time at home. Won't happen - Mexico said it offended thier soveriegnty.
As for the guards who take part or encourage it, throw them in jail, too.
In AZ we do.
I think "If it's cheap fix it, if its going to cost me a bunch, fuck it."
OK, you get what you pay for.
I wonder if all of those rapists are sexually frustrated.
Believe it or not, we offer Sexaholics Annonymous for inmates.

Now that I am done answering various claims, I must state that prison rape is never condoned, never allowed, always investigated, and always prosecuted, and the victim gets sent to a local hospital for a rape kit, just as a femal off the street would be. That's the way we do it, your state and countries prisons may do differently.
For those who advocate single cell lock down, well, Federal court orders don't permit it all the time. Can't be done, costs way more money that what we have now, and way too many people think we spend too much as it is. That's why two inmates escaped recently, using a rope by an unmanned guard tower, unmanned due to budget cuts.
Like I said, you get what you pay for. If you want to pay us less than WalMart cashiers, give us with 20 year old equipment, and sue us if we use profanity towards and inmate, (who routinely do so to us), then, oh well, you get what you pay for.

What, no rebuttal? Lotsa comments until I spoke, and then nothing? OK, see ya.

People should be given second and third chances, it is possible for humans to change. If you do not ever give people the chance of forgiveness, you are denying all remaining humanity. I understand the convict gang idea, but only if rehabilitation does not work on that person.:eek: isn't that a novel idea?


No- A novel idea is how many victims do we need before we agree that most attempts to "rehabilitate" animals are a waste of time.
Its not a question of forgiveness.

Would you volunteer as a violent criminals next potential victim, if he decides to commit it again on a whim?