NationStates Jolt Archive

An effort to remove faith from facts and teach the Bible, not preach the Bible, could soon see the light in the classroom.

"It's very easy to study the Bible without endorsing a specific faith," said Dr. Randy Brinson.

He's chairman for the non-profit group, "Redeem the Vote."

His organization wants high school students to see how the Bible influences their culture through history and literature.

"To understand for example, Steinbeck's 'Of Mice and Men' you have to have some understanding of the Bible," he said.

http://www.waff.com/Global/story.asp?S=4161350
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0929/p12s03-legn.html?s=hns
The Ector County Independent School District unanimously approved an elective course in biblical literacy last week, an action underscoring the marked increase of such "Bible study" classes nationally. Constitutional scholars are concerned that these classes constitute a subtle erosion of what they see as the traditional and necessary wall of separation between church and state.
http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/news/dmn/stories/050105dntexodessa.62beb225.html

Fine but if and only if it can be taught with out a religious slant. I would also require that the same class teach all other religious text (and story) in the same manner.

Fine but if and only if it can be taught with out a religious slant. I would also require that the same class teach all other religious text (and story) in the same manner.

Why would a class about the bible and its impact on history and literature have to include other religious texts? That would make about as much sense as a French class being required to include all other languages.

As long as it is taught as lit, it passes the test. It IS a book that has had a profound effect on Western history after all.

But walking that line is going to be hard...

Its okay, if:

1) The class does not teach a religious bias, i.e. indocrinating/brainwashing children to think a certain way. They can talk of Bible interpretations, it is neccessary, but if any references are made to politics, I think it should go.

2) It cannot be mandatory. Its a cake class anyhow, tons of children will opt for it.

2) It cannot be mandatory. Its a cake class anyhow, tons of children will opt for it.

Hahaha...I remember thinking that when I chose a New Testament class as a college elective. Needless to say, it wasn't easy and more than half the students dropped the class upon realizing their mistake. Of course, this one is a high school class, so it might be easy, but it doesnt necessarily have to be.

Hahaha...I remember thinking that when I chose a New Testament class as a college elective. Needless to say, it wasn't easy and more than half the students dropped the class upon realizing their mistake. Of course, this one is a high school class, so it might be easy, but it doesnt necessarily have to be.
True, but the hardest is Old Testament. If you got that first, I did, the NT is cake. Memorizing family trees, Jewish traditions, explaining this, learning some Hebrew here and there, and this was just in High School. I would imagine that this class would be fairly accessable to the average person, and they wouldn't wanna muddle with it too much. Its American Public School after all. Key words, key words. :p

By the way, (semi) Practising Lutheran formerly attending a Catholic Private School, for moral wellness, education, and American football. Again, key words, key words. :p

As long as it is JUST elective, doesn't have any kind of trying to convert students, and the class studied the negative aspects as well, I probably wouldn't protest it.
They step the line though, hell will break in that school.

True, but the hardest is Old Testament. If you got that first, I did, the NT is cake.
By the way, (semi) Practising Lutheran formerly attending a Catholic Private School, for moral wellness, education, and American football. Again, key words, key words. :p

Actually, that was the biggest problem. The NT course did not have the OT course as a prequisite but shouldve. Still it doesnt have to be easy, it all depends on the teacher. If the teacher is the type that says "I want a report on how coptic Christianity influenced the formation of the Catholic church on my desk by friday", it really doesnt matter how much you know you are still going to have to sit down and write this thing. It definitely doesnt have to be easy.

Who cares? Kids read the bible and develop their own perspective on it. Let them do so. We've been doing it for decades in Britain.

Who cares? Kids read the bible and develop their own perspective on it. Let them do so. We've been doing it for decades in Britain.

Well I'm guessing the class is more than just reading the book. More about how the book itself influenced culture. Anyone can read a book and learn what story it tells.
Still, what it is? Somewhere between 1500-1800 years that the Bible has been around? That's alot of history to cover.

Why would a class about the bible and its impact on history and literature have to include other religious texts? That would make about as much sense as a French class being required to include all other languages.
Because the bible has only influenced the world as a religious text. The class would have to be along the lines of the effects of religion on society. I am well aware that the sole purpose of introducing this class to public schools is expose children with an impressionable to the contents of the bible, thus making it easier to convert them to Christian faith. It's like making your child eat at least one mouth full of vegetables every night at dinner. You expose them to it slowly and they start not to mind that it tastes bad, even maybe getting to the point that they enjoy the taste. This form of training can be performed on most humans quite successfully.
The point is by only teaching the influence on religion has had on history is using a government funded institution to encourage the adoption of a particular type of faith.

Besides I'm not sure the class would have merit with out the consideration of other religious influences on western civilisation. Such as off the top of my head, The Roman pantheon, Celt, Jewish and Muslim faiths. These have all had very strong influences on society and I'm very sure there are plenty I have missed. So do we do an individual class for each one? Obviously a public institution cannot be seen favouring one religions influence on history, that would be validating that religion as being more important then others.

Actually, that was the biggest problem. The NT course did not have the OT course as a prequisite but shouldve. Still it doesnt have to be easy, it all depends on the teacher. If the teacher is the type that says "I want a report on how coptic Christianity influenced the formation of the Catholic church on my desk by friday", it really doesnt matter how much you know you are still going to have to sit down and write this thing. It definitely doesnt have to be easy.
Agreed. (by the way, I agreed with you in the last post, just for the record :D )

But, that can happen with any class. So, I don't use it to gage what level of hardness my classes will have. Then things get too depressing. :p

OOI, how does the Bible aid understanding of 'Of Mice and Men' (this is one of the example given in the article.

I'm genuinely interested as I had to study 'Of Mice and Men' last year for my GCSE course and I don't remember any religous references in it.

That's what happens in my school already and I think most other state schools in England have it the same way.

Some teachers can do it without a bias. Some can't. I've had both types of teachers. But it can be done and I fully support children being educated with a knowledge of religions and beliefs.

(And, because it probably makes a difference, I'm not religious.)

TBH, I would actually be more supportive of offering a Q'aran class than a Bible class. In western civilization, most people have enough of a working knowledge of the Bible to somewhat understand it and discuss it. Most don't have a clue about the Q'aran and considering its significance in the shaping of current events, I wouldn't mind people being given an opportunity to study it.

Besides I'm not sure the class would have merit with out the consideration of other religious influences on western civilisation. Such as off the top of my head, The Roman pantheon, Celt, Jewish and Muslim faiths. These have all had very strong influences on society and I'm very sure there are plenty I have missed. So do we do an individual class for each one? Obviously a public institution cannot be seen favouring one religions influence on history, that would be validating that religion as being more important then others.

It's probably because modern Western history and literature are the intended targets for this elective, and so the Bible is the only text used because it was the most important, widespread and influential religious text in the Western world from the Dark Ages to today.

If it was a world literature class, then all of those should be taught. But since this seems to be geared towards a Western literature class, it is probably most logical to teach the Bible, since it is dominant in Western culture.

It's probably because modern Western history and literature are the intended targets for this elective, and so the Bible is the only text used because it was the most important, widespread and influential religious text in the Western world from the Dark Ages to today.

If it was a world literature class, then all of those should be taught. But since this seems to be geared towards a Western literature class, it is probably most logical to teach the Bible, since it is dominant in Western culture.

Rather hard to cover the history of Western art and music without covering some of the Bible.

Just make the course primarily about art, culture, literature, and not primarily about "why you should love Jesus", make the course elective, and it's not a problem.

In my Christian mind set, I think they should ONLY teach the Bible to kids who want to learn about it (Atheist, Christian, whatever). There should be a "Bible Class" extra-curricular class after school. In this way, we won't offend/make angry people who are Atheist or non-Christian.

Also, in the Bible, Jesus Himself says that you can't force someone to accept God, so why would you force someone to read/accept the Bible? You have to accept God on your own, not be forced. So the teachers shouldn't force this on the kids.

2) It cannot be mandatory. Its a cake class anyhow, tons of children will opt for it.

There is a significent differnence between teaching about religon and teaching religion

Rather hard to cover the history of Western art and music without covering some of the Bible.

Just make the course primarily about art, culture, literature, and not primarily about "why you should love Jesus", make the course elective, and it's not a problem.

Absolutely. The Bible is an important part of Western culture regardless of the veracity of the beliefs involved. It should be taught as an elective for students willing to deepen their knowledge and understanding of the Bible's role in those fields.

In my Christian mind set, I think they should ONLY teach the Bible to kids who want to learn about it (Atheist, Christian, whatever). There should be a "Bible Class" extra-curricular class after school. In this way, we won't offend/make angry people who are Atheist or non-Christian.

Also, in the Bible, Jesus Himself says that you can't force someone to accept God, so why would you force someone to read/accept the Bible? You have to accept God on your own, not be forced. So the teachers shouldn't force this on the kids.

Teaching about religon =/= teaching religion

If your teaching about the Bibles impact on European history for example, thats perfectly legitmate compulsery class. In the UK we have a compulsery religious education of one hour per week up to GCSE (16 years old)

When it boils down to it, the Bible is in direct relation to a very small percentage of the world's religions, albeit those religions seem to have the largest number of lemmings ... er ... I mean ... followers. If the Bible is going to be discussed in the classrooms, then every other theological and mythical text from the world religions should be discussed as well.

Fair is fair.

:cool:

TBH, I would actually be more supportive of offering a Q'aran class than a Bible class. In western civilization, most people have enough of a working knowledge of the Bible to somewhat understand it and discuss it. Most don't have a clue about the Q'aran and considering its significance in the shaping of current events, I wouldn't mind people being given an opportunity to study it.
I can assure you that most people do not know enough about the Bible to fully understand many of the allusions to it in literature and art. I myself have read the Bible cover to cover twice to get more out of classic works of literature, and I'm still no biblical scholar. It's the most important book to read in our culture. I would fully support such a class, and I'm an athiest.

As for Muslim texts, they simply aren't as important to understand unless you're intending to study Muslim works and culture. Their impact on our culture is minimal. You can't blame people for being more interested in their own origins and fine arts than in others. The Bible is our roots, not the Qur'an. I'm not saying it isn't worthwhile, but it's not as important to western societies as the Bible is.

There's a lot to study about the Bible. Of course, schools shouldn't teach it as religion, but as the product of a people that has influenced Western art, history, and culture. As such it would be important to understand who, when, and why it was written, in order to understand what it says and why it says it.

This would help a lot to demistify it. I don't think that the Christian fundamentalists will like it after a while, though.

I can assure you that most people do not know enough about the Bible to fully understand many of the allusions to it in literature and art. I myself have read the Bible cover to cover twice to get more out of classic works of literature, and I'm still no biblical scholar. It's the most important book to read in our culture. I would fully support such a class, and I'm an athiest.

As for Muslim texts, they simply aren't as important to understand unless you're intending to study Muslim works and culture. Their impact on our culture is minimal. You can't blame people for being more interested in their own origins and fine arts than in others. The Bible is our roots, not the Qur'an. I'm not saying it isn't worthwhile, but it's not as important to western societies as the Bible is.
I will say you do make good points. Approached from that view, Bible study could indeed be valuable. The problem comes in trying to stay on track. Bringing Bibles into a class meant for teaching about important works of literature runs into the same problems as bringing nude models into a class meant for studying classic art. It's only a matter of time before someone turns the whole idea into something cheap and sordid.

It's an elective, right? I don't see a problem.

I think this is fine ... so long as they also read "On the Origin of Species" during all church services :p

I would only allow this if they had a Wiccan or atheist or the like teach the class.

They should teach the Bible of Agnostor the mighty God of agnostics. He has the power to wonder if he exists. He has not reached a conclusion yet.

I would only allow this if they had a Wiccan or atheist or the like teach the class.

I don't there are any Wiccans with enough education to teach a class, even kindergarten. Can't blame them though, the religion does have mind-destroying effects.

As an atheist I would have no problem with the bible being taught from the standpoint of it's literary and/or political influence.
Would also like to see a bible study class that actually studies it's the origins and development from a strictly historical and academic point of view. Of course I'd insist that this class meet the same objective academic guidelines as any legitimate post-graduate thesis at least as it pertains to the historical content.
I've doubts, however, that these would be appropriate for pre-collge level classes because they're too specialized. I think it would be more appropriate on the high school level to have classes dealing with the literary and political influences of mythology/religion in general.

I am an atheist and dont have a problem with the bible classes. In Britain its called Religious Education where we learnt about all sorts of religions, including Christianity of which Bible study was an important part.

Even at GCSE, i did religious studies. Basically comparative religion of Christianity , Judaism and Islam.

I would encourage my kids (if i had any) to partake of religious education in depth in order to understand the people of the world. The vast majority of whom subscribes to one religion or another.

I would have a problem if it was nothing but Bible reading and bible study because i feel it needs to be taken in context of a) other religions b) origins and c) art/literature.

I don't there are any Wiccans with enough education to teach a class, even kindergarten. Can't blame them though, the religion does have mind-destroying effects.
And that is why this shouldn't be allowed.

While we have 15 state operated religions, we do teach about any and all religions in our schools. We feel this is advantageous because at the same time you learn about something, you become more tolerant. We do not teach fear in our schools. Fear is what comes with ignorence.

It's probably because modern Western history and literature are the intended targets for this elective, and so the Bible is the only text used because it was the most important, widespread and influential religious text in the Western world from the Dark Ages to today.

If it was a world literature class, then all of those should be taught. But since this seems to be geared towards a Western literature class, it is probably most logical to teach the Bible, since it is dominant in Western culture.
I would argue that Greek Mythology has had an equally strong and mush longer influence on western civilisation. Also Celtic Mythology has had an equally strong influence. If you're going to talk about how the bible has effected western sociaty I don't see that it can be issolated from other mythology that has been affected by the bible and that the bible has been affected by.

And I'll say it again. This class is to be introduced to indoctron students to Christian faith by association. This class without considering all religious influences and how these influences have affected each other it is a class without merit.

Anyone who believes in Separation of Church and State within the Federal Government can't read. Read the 1st Amendment, It think it's pretty clear.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof[...]

Yeah, it's pretty simple. "Congress SHALL MAKE NO LAW". Can anyone else read? SHALL MAKE NO LAW is pretty god-damned clear. That just means they make no laws. None, whatsoever. They have no jurisdiction. And the second clause of that amendment reinforces that: "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Man... These Separation fanatics really get on my nerves... And, under the 10th Amendment of course, because Congress can't touch the subject, it falls to the states. So, who makes the laws on religion:

The states, as given to them under the 10th Amendment.

This argument about teaching the bible in public schools is moot and pointless. If the Supreme Court Justices could read, we wouldn't be having this problem. Let them teach it if their state votes for it. Otherwise, lay the hell off.

(BTW... I don't believe it should be taught in schools. I love being an Atheist :D)

I don't there are any Wiccans with enough education to teach a class, even kindergarten. Can't blame them though, the religion does have mind-destroying effects.
I know wiccans with education degrees, bigot.

The only problem I have is that High School kids probably wouldn't be allowed to view the kind of unsavory content in the Bible if it were any other book in question. The bible is a dirty, filthy, perverse and violent epic not for the squeamish or puritan in spirit.

Think of the children!

I would argue that Greek Mythology has had an equally strong and mush longer influence on western civilisation. Also Celtic Mythology has had an equally strong influence. If you're going to talk about how the bible has effected western sociaty I don't see that it can be issolated from other mythology that has been affected by the bible and that the bible has been affected by.

That's true; however, mythology would probably fit better in to the actual English class rather than a class on its own like the Bible because ithe scope of the works and their effects are different.

They're all vital, but a specific Bible elective would make it easier to encompass more of the Bible than would normally be taught in a literature class. The important aspects of mythology could be taught in class as part of Western literature, and they could even offer electives in the particular subject if they could find a teacher/money.

And I'll say it again. This class is to be introduced to indoctron students to Christian faith by association. This class without considering all religious influences and how these influences have affected each other it is a class without merit.

You can teach the Bible in a secular manner, much like any religious text. The key will be to ensure you pick a teacher whose beliefs do not compromise the objective aspect of the course, and who does not attempt to push religion on the people who take the class. Since the Bible has had a considerable stand alone effect in Western culture, it definitely merits teaching, much like the Quran or Dao De Jing would in a /World Asian Literature course.

That's true; however, mythology would probably fit better in to the actual English class rather than a class on its own like the Bible because ithe scope of the works and their effects are different.
These mythologies are religions and their scope and effect is ecual. As is there effect on the bible itself.
Do highschools have an elective class for every major book ever written? NO why should this one book be different. The effect has not been that great if you remove the influences of everything else from discussion. Unless you are a christian in which case it is the most important book in your life and your history.

The effect has not been that great if you remove the influences of everything else from discussion. Unless you are a christian in which case it is the most important book in your life and your history.

The influence of the bible has been profound. You have just made a perfect illustration of why these classes are necessary, because as hard to believe as it might be for the rest of us, there really are people like you who are blind to the impact the bible has had on world history. Lets do a short list...say...10 or so things that have been impacted by the bible.

1. The Crusades
2. The Inquisition
3. Renaissance art (Donatello, Michaelangelo, Davinci, Botticelli, and just about any worthwhile artist).
4. Classical Music (Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, etc.)
5. The works of Shakespeare and other literary minds
6. The founding of the United States
7. The colonization of just about every country in America
8. The declaration of Independence and US Revolutionary War
9. The US constitution and bill of rights
10. Abolition of slavery and the American Civil war

Anyone who believes in Separation of Church and State within the Federal Government can't read. Read the 1st Amendment, It think it's pretty clear.



Yeah, it's pretty simple. "Congress SHALL MAKE NO LAW". Can anyone else read? SHALL MAKE NO LAW is pretty god-damned clear. That just means they make no laws. None, whatsoever. They have no jurisdiction. And the second clause of that amendment reinforces that: "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Man... These Separation fanatics really get on my nerves... And, under the 10th Amendment of course, because Congress can't touch the subject, it falls to the states. So, who makes the laws on religion:

The states, as given to them under the 10th Amendment.

This argument about teaching the bible in public schools is moot and pointless. If the Supreme Court Justices could read, we wouldn't be having this problem. Let them teach it if their state votes for it. Otherwise, lay the hell off.

Ever heard of the Fourteenth Amendment?

I would argue that Greek Mythology has had an equally strong and mush longer influence on western civilisation.

You mean you do not receive lectures on "classical culture" ? Not even if you took Greek and Latin classes (in which case they were compulsory in my school) ?
Celtic however was indeed barely mentioned.. something which should be rectified.

In any case, I am not really a friend of the established flavours of Christianity (read my posts ;)) - but to deny the Bible is an important document in western history would be stupid. The role of the Popes throughout history, The Habsburgian and French empires, most of the art, the layout of most European cities and so on were all heavily influenced. Knowing what it says and what impact it has had is necessary to give education meaning.

6. The founding of the United States
7. The colonization of just about every country in America
8. The declaration of Independence and US Revolutionary War
9. The US constitution and bill of rights

The United States was NOT founded on the bible! The founding fathers were MASONS and longed to be free of the churches tyranny. Hence the many masonic symbols on our currency and gov't buildings. Washington's monement is in the shape of an Egyptain Steele. The eye and pyramid on the currency is also a masonic symbol.
The Rev war was started due to King George setting restrictions on smugglers! Many of those in the early colonies were involved in black market trade
The US constitution has NOTHING to do with the bible. It has far more relation to the Iriquious laws than it does the bible! I was based on Iriquois law and the classical Greek form of democracy. Which I might add the Celts and the Germanic ppl had their own form of.
Also the American Indians had well established forms of gov't long before the Euros showed up.

The United States was NOT founded on the bible! The founding fathers were MASONS and longed to be free of the churches tyranny.

So the Bible definately influenced the founding of the states ;)

The Holy Bible being taught in public schools? :eek: Well what do you know? :p Just like the founding fathers and myself intended it to be! ;) You win some and you lose some!

http://www.waff.com/Global/story.asp?S=4161350
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0929/p12s03-legn.html?s=hns

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/news/dmn/stories/050105dntexodessa.62beb225.html


Such classes, if taught as they are proposed, are entirely unobjectionable. The Bible does have a great deal of literary and cultural information and references.

On the other hand, the Bible in such a class is just a book and should be given no more respect, weight, authority, or implication than any other book.

The Holy Bible being taught in public schools? :eek: Well what do you know? :p Just like the founding fathers and myself intended it to be! ;) You win some and you lose some!

So you believe the Founders of our Constitution envisioned federally supported and regulated public schools and that the Bible would be "taught" in some manner in those schools?

ROTFLASTC

So you believe the Founders of our Constitution envisioned federally supported and regulated public schools and that the Bible would be "taught" in some manner in those schools?

ROTFLASTC

And you don't?

That's even funnier..... ROFLUAYHIAFP (figure that one out)! :p

Why would a class about the bible and its impact on history and literature have to include other religious texts? That would make about as much sense as a French class being required to include all other languages.

Depends on the focus of the class and how it is taught.

It is common in a literature class to compare and contrast a work with other similar works.

It is common in a history class to place the work in context. Thus, the surrounding beliefs and literature pre-OT, the teachings going on between OT and NT, and the surrounding beliefs and literature at the time the NT was written. Some of this is referenced in the work itself. Other developments like the writing of the Koran would clearly be relevant to the cultural impact of "the Bible."

I'm more curious to see a class taught on the history of the Bible itself. How it has been cobbled together. How parts have been added and removed over time, etc.

The United States was NOT founded on the bible! The founding fathers were MASONS and longed to be free of the churches tyranny. Hence the many masonic symbols on our currency and gov't buildings.


Right. Masons are a Christian order with heavy biblical influences. You just proved my point.

The Rev war was started due to King George setting restrictions on smugglers! Many of those in the early colonies were involved in black market trade

Right, but they used God to justify it. Read the declaration of independence. Without the God argument they may not have gotten enough support.

The US constitution has NOTHING to do with the bible. It has far more relation to the Iriquious laws than it does the bible! I was based on Iriquois law and the classical Greek form of democracy. Which I might add the Celts and the Germanic ppl had their own form of.


Many of the concepts in the constitution are based on religious beliefs. The debates leading up the writing of the constitution included religious discussion. 30 state constitutions include the phrase "Almighty God" and 8 include the word "God" in the preamble.

Also the American Indians had well established forms of gov't long before the Euros showed up.

So what? This has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

And you don't?

That's even funnier..... ROFLUAYHIAFP (figure that one out)! :p

On what basis do you conclude that our "Founders" invisioned a national school system under federal regulation and control?

Although that came to be a later goal of this Republic, it definitely was not a focus of the work of those who created the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Many of the concepts in the constitution are based on religious beliefs. The debates leading up the writing of the constitution included religious discussion. 30 state constitutions include the phrase "Almighty God" and 8 include the word "God" in the preamble.


A single reference to God in the lenghtly language, particularly the preambles, of 38 state constitutions is hardly evidence that the content of those consitutitions was based on religious beliefs or that the writing of those constitutions included religious discussion.

Sorry, you fail to prove your point here.

What specific provisions in the U.S. Constitution are based on religious belief?

A single reference to God in the lenghtly language, particularly the preambles, of 38 state constitutions is hardly evidence that the content of those consitutitions was based on religious beliefs or that the writing of those constitutions included religious discussion.

Sorry, you fail to prove your point here.

What specific provisions in the U.S. Constitution are based on religious belief?

Im not going to turn this thread into a debate on the Constitution. If you want more information on the influences of religion on the U.S. Constitution, you can begin with a book like Joseph Story's Commentaries on the Constitution. Otherwise, feel free to ignore that point if you want, I made 9 others and there are countless more to choose from. The influence of the bible and Christianity in general on the world is undeniable. Even our calendar is based on it.

On what basis do you conclude that our "Founders" invisioned a national school system under federal regulation and control?

Although that came to be a later goal of this Republic, it definitely was not a focus of the work of those who created the Constitution and Bill of Rights.


You prove otherwise! Were you there? The opposition enjoys stating that Jesus cannot be proven by historical facts. I simply refute that by saying that Darwin and others can't be proven by historical facts. Anyone want to prove to me how any of these HUMAN written books are perfect and flawless?
I guess, we all lose! And that means that each side will continue to believe and support whatever floats their boat. ;)

You prove otherwise! Were you there? The opposition enjoys stating that Jesus cannot be proven by historical facts. I simply refute that by saying that Darwin and others can't be proven by historical facts. Anyone want to prove to me how any of these HUMAN written books are perfect and flawless?
I guess, we all lose! And that means that each side will continue to believe and support whatever floats their boat. ;)

How about you start your own thread on that instead? This one is about the bible being taught in public schools.

Im not going to turn this thread into a debate on the Constitution. If you want more information on the influences of religion on the U.S. Constitution, you can begin with a book like Joseph Story's Commentaries on the Constitution. Otherwise, feel free to ignore that point if you want, I made 9 others and there are countless more to choose from. The influence of the bible and Christianity in general on the world is undeniable. Even our calendar is based on it.

Absolutely! But we all like to pick and chose specific writtings and ideas to fit and resemble our ideals. The battle rages on! :D

How about you start your own thread on that instead? This one is about the bible being taught in public schools.


And I agreed with you! I was only answering Cat-Tribes post. Sorry for getting of topic!

Im not going to turn this thread into a debate on the Constitution. If you want more information on the influences of religion on the U.S. Constitution, you can begin with a book like Joseph Story's Commentaries on the Constitution. Otherwise, feel free to ignore that point if you want, I made 9 others and there are countless more to choose from. The influence of the bible and Christianity in general on the world is undeniable. Even our calendar is based on it.

I agreed long ago with the premise that the Bible can and should be taught as a literary document and as part of history. (Not that it necessarily contains accurate history, but on the effect it has had on history.)

So, you and I really have a minor quibble we could take elsewhere.

I've read Story's Commentaries, btw. He's a very biased and somewhat unreliable source -- particularly on this point.

You prove otherwise! Were you there? The opposition enjoys stating that Jesus cannot be proven by historical facts. I simply refute that by saying that Darwin and others can't be proven by historical facts. Anyone want to prove to me how any of these HUMAN written books are perfect and flawless?
I guess, we all lose! And that means that each side will continue to believe and support whatever floats their boat. ;)

You are babbling nonsense.

1. You do not seem to realize I agree with the teaching of the Bible outside of science classrooms. As we agree on this point, perhaps the rest of your sophistry can be better used in another thread.

2. We have excellent documents telling us what the Founders agreeed upon: they are the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. You will find nothing therein establlishing a national school system -- let alone one that is Bible-based.

3. I love how you adopt a stance of relativism about all truths when you don't really believe that to be the case. That is a sad tactic.
3.

Meh. This is old news.. I took a Bible class in High School back in '01.. in California, no less. If it's possible here, it should become a common option elsewhere, I'd think.

Actually, our founding fathers never intended for America to be a theocracy. In fact, weren't we trying to escape religious tyranny?

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.php

You are babbling nonsense.

1. You do not seem to realize I agree with the teaching of the Bible outside of science classrooms. As we agree on this point, perhaps the rest of your sophistry can be better used in another thread.

2. We have excellent documents telling us what the Founders agreeed upon: they are the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. You will find nothing therein establlishing a national school system -- let alone one that is Bible-based.

3. I love how you adopt a stance of relativism about all truths when you don't really believe that to be the case. That is a sad tactic.
3.


So be it! To each his/her own. And don't forget about absolutisms as well. ;) Yes sir, that's me! Oh well! May you have a wonderful day!

Actually, our founding fathers never intended for America to be a theocracy. In fact, weren't we trying to escape religious tyranny?

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/xian.php


Here's but one example of the contrary to your post. So what was it exactly that you were looking for? People that agreed with you or for someone to have a needless debate where neither side would be willing to give in? Either way, I'm done. Hope you find what your looking for, I know I have. And his name is GOD allmighty and Jesus Christ. Shalom!


Religion
Debating America's Christian Character
by Barbara Bradley Hagerty


Declaration of Independence:
“When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...”



Bill of Rights:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”



Key Documents Online
Links to the U.S. Constitution, Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights are available at the Library of Congress' Web site:


Library of Congress: American Memory

Morning Edition, May 5, 2005 · In recent years, religious conservatives have been fighting the culture wars with new assertiveness. Many observers see a widespread nostalgia for America's early days, when most of the founders were Protestant and, some religious conservatives believe, Christian principles reigned.

As president of a group called Wall Builders, David Barton is at the forefront of the Christian heritage movement. He says with few exceptions, the founders spoke openly of their protestant Christian faith and many, including John Adams, Benjamin Rush and John Jay, wrote that American freedom was based on Christian principles.

Robert George, a political scientist at Princeton University, disagrees with this overtly Protestant reading of history. But he says this movement is tapping into an expanding sentiment across America, a longing for a culturally simpler time. Americans radically disagree on fundamental questions of life, abortion, euthanasia and even the definition of marriage.

"At a time when we have a lack of consensus on something as fundamental as marriage, are we surprised that people want to look back toward our founding principles for guidance?" George says. "It's when fundamental questions are being argued that people want to say, 'What kind of people are we? Where do we come from?'"

Web Extra: What the Founding Fathers Had to Say

Is the United States a Christian nation? Some Christian conservatives say yes, arguing that the Founding Fathers were guided by their faith. Opponents argue that the nation's founders sought to prevent the domination of Christianity in the public arena. Below, a look at some of the historical writings cited by the two sides in the debate:

In Favor of Religion in Public Life:

"[I]t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue." -- John Adams (letter to cousin Zabdiel Adams, June 21, 1776)

"While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support." -- George Washington (address to the Synod of the Dutch Reformed Church in North America, October 9, 1789)

"[O]ur citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament, or the Christian religion." -- Noah Webster, author of the first American dictionary (writing in History of the United States, 1832)

"Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits… it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers." -- Fisher Ames, Federalist party leader (An Oration on the Sublime Virtues of General George Washington, 1800)

"[T]he… law established by the Creator… extends over the whole globe, is everywhere and at all times binding upon mankind… [This] is the law of God by which he makes his way known to man and is paramount to all human control." -- Rufus King, signer of the Constitution (letter to C. Gore, February 17, 1820)

"I concur with the author in considering the moral precepts of Jesus as more pure, correct, and sublime than those of ancient philosophers." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to Edward Dowse, April 19, 1803)

"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments." -- Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration of Independence (Of the Mode of Education Proper in a Republic, 1798).

Im not going to turn this thread into a debate on the Constitution. If you want more information on the influences of religion on the U.S. Constitution, you can begin with a book like Joseph Story's Commentaries on the Constitution. Otherwise, feel free to ignore that point if you want, I made 9 others and there are countless more to choose from. The influence of the bible and Christianity in general on the world is undeniable. Even our calendar is based on it.
Name one aspect of the calendar that is even remotly based on the bible or chirstianity.

*various quotes*
Can you supply original sources on these I know several quotes from the founding fathers in relation to a christian founding were manufactured in recent decades by people trying to make their point a valid one. Byorignal sources I mean places the original documents may be found?

Can you supply original sources on these I know several quotes from the founding fathers in relation to a christian founding were manufactured in recent decades by people trying to make their point a valid one. Byorignal sources I mean places the original documents may be found?


A google or aol, etc. search will suffice. Just enter U.S. Constitution or Founding Fathers as the keyword.

Can you supply original sources on these I know several quotes from the founding fathers in relation to a christian founding were manufactured in recent decades by people trying to make their point a valid one. Byorignal sources I mean places the original documents may be found?


Founding Fathers Quotes
"The country's first two presidents, George Washington and John Adams,
were firm believers in the importance of religion for republican government." --official Library of Congress statement

"...both the legislators and the public considered it appropriate
for the national government to promote a nondenominational, nonpolemical Christianity."--official Library of Congress statement

Have you ever read a quote that seemed to show that our Founders weren't Christians?
Click here to see an example of a quote taken out of context, and a tutorial on examining these quotes!

__________________________________________________________________
Early Years
The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606)
• We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)
Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to serve and fear God the Giver of all Goodness, for every plantation which our Heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out.

William Bradford
• wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking:
• 1) "a better, and easier place of living”; and that “the children of the group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous courses [in Holland]“
• 2) “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"
The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 | Signing of the Mayflower painting | Picture of Compact
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…”
______________________________________________________________________

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] | photographs of this letter: Page 2.... page 1.... page 3... page 4
.......click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams' quotes taken OUT of context!


Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]

John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
“ Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.”

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock: | Portrait of John Hancock
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"

Patrick Henry: | Portrait of Patrick Henry
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”

John Jay: | Portrait of John Jay
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress

“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”

• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
[Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution | Portrait of James McHenry
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

Jedediah Morse: | portrait of Jedediah Morse
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."

John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg | Statue of John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg
In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General, having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.

Thomas Paine:
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The Existence of God--1810”

Benjamin Rush:
• “I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.” “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.” [Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
• “Christianity is the only true and perfect religion.”
• “If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.”

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education”
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787

Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
“ Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit.” [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster: | Portrait of Noah Webster
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:

Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..." | photo of Farewell address original manuscript


“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washington’s adopted daughter):
Is it necessary that any one should [ask], “Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

“ O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]
Click here for George Washington's Prayer Journal

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]

James Wilson: | Portrait of James Wilson
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention

"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

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Public Institutions
Liberty Bell Inscription:
“ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof” [Leviticus 25:10]

Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
• “Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea” –Ben Franklin


• “The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.” --Thomas Jefferson

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it

Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.

Another popular proposal to the Great Seal of the United States was:
" Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"; with Pharoah's army drowning in the Red Sea

Click here for a larger image

The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

New York Spectator. August 23, 1831
“ The court of common pleas of Chester county, [New York] rejected a witness who declared his disbelief in the existence of God. The presiding judge remarked that he had not before been aware that there was a man living who did not believe in the existence of God; that this belief constituted the sanction of all testimony in a court of justice: and that he knew of no cause in a Christian country where a witness had been permitted to testify without such belief.

New England Primer: | Photograph of The New England Primer reprint
Used in public and private schools from 1690 to 1900 second only to the Bible
Some of its contents:
A song of praise to God
Prayers in Jesus’ name
The famous Bible alphabet
Shorter Catechism of faith in Christ

Name one aspect of the calendar that is even remotly based on the bible or chirstianity.

According to NASA, pretty much all of it is based on the bible and Christianity (catholicism to be more specific). Here is what they say:

The Gregorian calendar resulted from a perceived need to reform the method of calculating dates of Easter.


The recommendations of Pope Gregory's calendar commission were instituted by the papal bull "Inter Gravissimus," signed on 1582 February 24.

Subject to the logistical problems of communication and governance in the sixteenth century, the new calendar was promulgated through the Roman-Catholic world. Protestant states initially rejected the calendar, but gradually accepted it over the coming centuries. The Eastern Orthodox churches rejected the new calendar and continued to use the Julian calendar with traditional lunar tables for calculating Easter. Because the purpose of the Gregorian calendar was to regulate the cycle of Christian holidays, its acceptance in the non-Christian world was initially not at issue. But as international communications developed, the civil rules of the Gregorian calendar were gradually adopted around the world.

The Gregorian calendar today serves as an international standard for civil use. In addition, it regulates the ceremonial cycle of the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches. In fact, its original purpose was ecclesiastical. Although a variety of other calendars are in use today, they are restricted to particular religions or cultures.
http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhelp/calendars.html

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quit it, thats not what this thread is about

Should this not be taught in history class?

Should this not be taught in history class?

Yeah. But history class can only give you a brief overview because they have to cover a lot of other material throughout the school year. Also, a lot of it has little to do with history and more to do with humanities, literature, and other areas. It makes sense to give a brief overview in history class (and they already do), but you cant really study it in depth because there is no time.

As long as it is taught in a purely disinterested sense, there is no problem.

Biblical allusions can, and should, be taught alongside allusions to classical religion.

A close eye should be kept for teachers who see this as an opportunity to abridge the free excercize rights of their charges, and those wrongdoers should be dealt with when they come up.