NationStates Jolt Archive

Somebody mentioned "Brave New World" and "1984" in another thread, and I was wondering...

If you had to wake up tomorrow in either Orwell's world of Oceania as depicted in "1984" or in Huxley's "Brave New World", which would you choose?

For purposes of discussion, let's say that the position you were born into would be basically random; that is to say, you would have no guarantee of being a party official or an alpha, but it wouldn't be impossible. However, you might just as likely be a prole or a sub-mongoloid elevator operator.

I generally feel both worlds are dystopic. Which do you consider worse?

Somebody mentioned "Brave New World" and "1984" in another thread, and I was wondering...

If you had to wake up tomorrow in either Orwell's world of Oceania as depicted in "1984" or in Huxley's "Brave New World", which would you choose?

For purposes of discussion, let's say that the position you were born into would be basically random; that is to say, you would have no guarantee of being a party official or an alpha, but it wouldn't be impossible. However, you might just as likely be a prole or a sub-mongoloid elevator operator.

I generally feel both worlds are dystopic. Which do you consider worse?
I would prefer "Brave New World." At least they would give me drugs, soma, and mess us up psychologically so we like being oppressed.

I've not read ever in about 5 years...

But whatever. Whichever one offered more sex.

I've not read ever in about 5 years...

But whatever. Whichever one offered more sex.
That would be Brave New World. Not only did you have to do erotic play as a child, one was encouraged to be a slut.

I've not read ever in about 5 years...

But whatever. Whichever one offered more sex.
Haha. A world with compulsory sex or one where sex is frowned upon. Easy choice then.

I think I'd prefer brave new world as well. You're bred to be content with your life, but even if you are discontent then you're not killed for your deviant thoughts, but exiled instead. But best of all - NO DAMN TV. Huxley may have been visionary, but he didn't see TV coming.

Seems to be a pretty clear trend, at least thus far.

I imagine we'll have a few who prefer the boot crushing a man's face forever to the world with drugs, screwcopters, and women who walk around with fashionable contraceptive bandoliers...

but not many.

I'll take IngSoc any day. I would rather live in that than submit myself to a programme of control so tightly imposed it's almost impossible to break out of. I choose not to have my mind altered by drugs or programming. I will parrot the words and "believe" the Party line, but the government will never take from me the part of me which knows it's lying, the part of me which has some dignity, in that I can trust it, even if I can never let anyone else know.

To be one of the mindless addicts of Huxley's nightmare world... I think I'd take the Savage's way out.

Don't get me wrong, I'd far prefer that Brave New World, that has such people in't, from my usual point of view, but as for which one I would rather exist in, no. I will keep my dignity.

Well what seems to be the main difference between the two is that Brave New World is attempting to be utopian and partially getting it right, but also partially getting it wrong. Whereas 1984 is explicitly trying to be dystopian and succeding. Huxley is openly anti-american which is apparent in that BNW reveres Henry Ford as a god. The year system is After Ford. The top is called Ford and his world controllers called 'his fordship'. Yet Huxley said of America "Materially, the nearest approach to Utopia yet seen on your planet".

1984 would be pretty miserable unless you were a senior Party member and a bit of a sadist.

I'll take IngSoc any day. I would rather live in that than submit myself to a programme of control so tightly imposed it's almost impossible to break out of. I choose not to have my mind altered by drugs or programming. I will parrot the words and "believe" the Party line, but the government will never take from me the part of me which knows it's lying, the part of me which has some dignity, in that I can trust it, even if I can never let anyone else know.

To be one of the mindless addicts of Huxley's nightmare world... I think I'd take the Savage's way out.

Don't get me wrong, I'd far prefer that Brave New World, that has such people in't, from my usual point of view, but as for which one I would rather exist in, no. I will keep my dignity.Ah yes, but the last version of IngSoc will make rebelious thoughts impossible because you will not have a language sufcient to express what you mean, even to yourself. And are not the youth of 1984 mindless addicts of hate? Then they grow old and become mindless in their constant fear of everything and everyone. They can get to you even though you haven't said anything, just to hesitate at the wrong moment is all it takes. And the greatest achievement of 1984 is that in the end you will thank them for what they do to you. You will apoligise profusely to them and then be happy when the bullet comes, because you know you deserve it.

I'll take IngSoc any day. I would rather live in that than submit myself to a programme of control so tightly imposed it's almost impossible to break out of. I choose not to have my mind altered by drugs or programming. I will parrot the words and "believe" the Party line, but the government will never take from me the part of me which knows it's lying, the part of me which has some dignity, in that I can trust it, even if I can never let anyone else know.
Hah. You think you can get away with that? Apart from newspeak making rebellious thought impossible, the Thought Police will, inevitably, get you and break you.

Yeah, I think I'll go with Brave New World as well. At least there, there's a chance for escape if you really want it.

Somebody mentioned "Brave New World" and "1984" in another thread, and I was wondering...

If you had to wake up tomorrow in either Orwell's world of Oceania as depicted in "1984" or in Huxley's "Brave New World", which would you choose?

For purposes of discussion, let's say that the position you were born into would be basically random; that is to say, you would have no guarantee of being a party official or an alpha, but it wouldn't be impossible. However, you might just as likely be a prole or a sub-mongoloid elevator operator.

I generally feel both worlds are dystopic. Which do you consider worse?

I'd probably pick 1984 even though it is probably the worst for civil liberties purely because you don't have to think if you're a citizen. At all.

Brave New World, anyone who would want to live in the world of 1984 loves suffering and should go see a doctor!

Well what seems to be the main difference between the two is that Brave New World is attempting to be utopian and partially getting it right, but also partially getting it wrong. Whereas 1984 is explicitly trying to be dystopian and succeding. Huxley is openly anti-american which is apparent in that BNW reveres Henry Ford as a god. The year system is After Ford. The top is called Ford and his world controllers called 'his fordship'. Yet Huxley said of America "Materially, the nearest approach to Utopia yet seen on your planet".

That doesn't really imply anti-Americism though does it. (DISCLAIMER: Been a long time since I read BNW.) Like many intellectuals (amoung others) of the time, Huxley disliked the assembly line means of production, seeing it as dehumanising and a way to reduce human workers to simple cogs in a machine with no independent thought. You can see similar sentiments in other art of the period. Example, Charlie Chaplin's Modern Times, which starts with three images being juxtaposed, a clock striking the hour, sheep all traveling in the same direction (with one black sheep, no points for guessing who the black sheep is meant to be) and workers all arriving at work.

Well what seems to be the main difference between the two is that Brave New World is attempting to be utopian and partially getting it right, but also partially getting it wrong. Whereas 1984 is explicitly trying to be dystopian and succeding. Huxley is openly anti-american which is apparent in that BNW reveres Henry Ford as a god. The year system is After Ford. The top is called Ford and his world controllers called 'his fordship'. Yet Huxley said of America "Materially, the nearest approach to Utopia yet seen on your planet".

You have no understanding of the context, in refering to Ford they were refering to the assembly line, the mass produced car, and the real beginings of what can be called the assembly line society (the embryos are transported and designed for there future roles along an assembly lines).

Also, hating Ford is not anti-American as the man was an anti-Semite, used thugs to beat up unions, got a medal from Nazi Germany, and his assembly line cars are responsible for a great many of the problems facing modern society!

Also, hating Ford is not anti-American as the man was an anti-Semite, used thugs to beat up unions, got a medal from Nazi Germany, and his assembly line cars are responsible for a great many of the problems facing modern society!

I doubt claiming hating Ford != anti-American really works along that line of arguement. At the time Anti-anti-Semitism was hardly an American value, a great many businesses used armed thugs to beat up workers (sometime the armed thugs were called "State Troopers"), nor was Nazi Germany a hostile power, and many businesses helped and were rewarded by Nazi Germany.

Surely it would be easier just to say, Huxley hated the man's views and management style and Ford's views and management style had nothing intrinsically 'American' about them.

A bit like how hating Bill Gates != Anti-Americanism in todays world.

But best of all - NO DAMN TV. Huxley may have been visionary, but he didn't see TV coming.
Not true. TVs are everywhere in Brave New World. At the Park Lane Hospital for the dying, 'at the foot of every bed, facing its moribund occupant, was a television'.

What Huxley admitted as being the one thing he missed was atomic power, and atomic weapons.

Ah, the true bonus of having studied BNW for last month's HSC exam comes to light.

Brave New World. I wouldn't like 1984's system even if I was in charge of it, and that's going some.

Getting "exiled" to a free island all my own (if I remember the book correctly, it's been several years since I had to read it) just for thinking the rest of society was smoking something powerful and letting them know it, is a definite plus :)

Not true. TVs are everywhere in Brave New World. At the Park Lane Hospital for the dying, 'at the foot of every bed, facing its moribund occupant, was a television'.

What Huxley admitted as being the one thing he missed was atomic power, and atomic weapons.

Ah, the true bonus of having studied BNW for last month's HSC exam comes to light.Ack, Really? I just remember a bit where this guy is reporting via radio. I seem to have mistakenly presumed a significance ascribed to radio and therefore not TV in BNW. However, I only really put the thing in about TV to be facetious.

Ack, Really? I just remember a bit where this guy is reporting via radio. I seem to have mistakenly presumed a significance ascribed to radio and therefore not TV in BNW.
Well, we still use radio a lot. And we're arguably far closer to Huxley's Constructed Utopia then the world was back when he was writing.
However, I only really put the thing in about TV to be facetious.
Yeah, I know. We all like to live in hope.

Ah yes, but the last version of IngSoc will make rebelious thoughts impossible because you will not have a language sufcient to express what you mean, even to yourself.

Ah yes, version 11 of NewSpeak

Give me Brave New World anytime. MMMmmmmmm, Soma.......

I hate the forum. I just spent ages trawling through BNW, making excellent points and then the damn thing doesn't post. I had references to character names, the Huxley's view of a US absent of morals, his support for eugenics, the planned economy, the 20 year crisis, Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Franco's Spain, Mussolini's Italy, Huxley's scathing attacks of California and the Savage Reservation relevance to Huxley's view of the soul and BNW lack of it.

I am not writing it again. Sorry.

Somebody mentioned "Brave New World" and "1984" in another thread, and I was wondering...

If you had to wake up tomorrow in either Orwell's world of Oceania as depicted in "1984" or in Huxley's "Brave New World", which would you choose?

For purposes of discussion, let's say that the position you were born into would be basically random; that is to say, you would have no guarantee of being a party official or an alpha, but it wouldn't be impossible. However, you might just as likely be a prole or a sub-mongoloid elevator operator.

I generally feel both worlds are dystopic. Which do you consider worse?
Brave New World was the most frightening, since there was no passion for living, no challenges, everyone was zoned out on Soma. But at least they were actually encouraged to have sex, so I would pick Huxley's dystopia hands down. :D

Well, both are quite bad, but IngSoc does appear to grant at least marginally more freedom and dignity, so I would probably have to go with that.

Lot of really good points here.

I'm kind of hearing that some feel that BNW would be easier to tolerate, being generally comfortable, albeit soulless. Others seem to feel that, while 1984 is more overtly vicious in its methods of control, they feel they might be able to better preserve their autonomy there.

It might be interesting to speculate on what an alpha elite from BNW might have to say about 1984, and what view a high party official of Ingsoc might take on the people in BNW.

On the Ford thing, I know zero about Huxley outside the blurb at the back of the book. Did he publish political essays or anything that might shed light on his feelings about America?