NationStates Jolt Archive


Marine reports from Iraq. [ Long article, but lots of good intell ]

Eutrusca
22-11-2005, 16:02
COMMENTARY: Here is the inside poop straight from Iraq. This is the military equivalent of the coveted "primary source data" many research projects use. The returning Marines with whom I have talked all bear out this report. If you have actual data and/or interviews which contradict this intel, I would love to hear about it, but if you just want to rant and rave about "this is th3 wrong!!!111ONE!!" post on some other thread. :p


A Marine reports from Iraq (http://www.military.com/earlybrief/0,,,00.html)

TODAY'S COLUMNIST
By An anonymous Marine
November 22, 2005
Editor's note: There's nothing like word from the field to know what works, what doesn't and how the enemy's tactics are affecting our soldiers in battle. Below is one U.S. Marine's take on those questions, verified and relayed to us through his father, a retired Marine. We've withheld the Marine's name and his father's to spare them the inevitable political or institutional flap. Among the most interesting tidbits: Our Marine reports that servicemen are shocked at negative press coverage of the war, and they believe the United States is winning decisively -- but that the number of troops in the field should be bolstered. On equipment, our Marine thinks the older, battle-tested parts of the U.S. arsenal are the most useful equipment in the fight against insurgents. M-16s aren't much good, but "Ma Deuce" is, and the .45 pistol is highly coveted. Body armor has plusses and minuses.

Hello to all my fellow gunners, military buffs, veterans and interested guys. A couple of weekends ago I got to spend time with my son... [He] spent seven months at "Camp Blue Diamond" in Ramadi, a.k.a. "Fort Apache." He saw and did a lot. The following is what he told me about weapons, equipment, tactics and other miscellaneous information which may be of interest to you. Nothing is by any means classified. No politics here, just a Marine with a bird's eye view's opinions.
• The M-16 rifle: Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the sand over there, which is like talcum powder. The sand is everywhere. You feel filthy two minutes after a shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it also has jamming problems. Marines like the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picatinny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits cannot be reliably counted on to put the enemy down. Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.
• The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon) .223 cal: Big thumbs down. Drum-fed light machine gun. Universally considered a piece of s***. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly. That's fun in the middle of a firefight.
• The M9 Beretta 9mm: mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in a desert environment, but everyone hates the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys get hit multiple times but are still in the fight.
• Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well and is used frequently for clearing houses, to good effect.
• The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal belt-fed machine gun: Thumbs up. Developed to replace the old M-60 -- what a beautiful weapon that was -- it is accurate, reliable and the 7.62 round puts 'em down. Originally developed as a vehicle-mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.
• The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. "Ma deuce" is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight-stopper, puts their d**** in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.
• The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, it can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit. The special-ops guys -- who are doing most of the pistol work -- use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45s are being re-issued en masse.
• The M-14: Thumbs up. It is being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special-ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low-power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and people love the 7.62 round.
• The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers -- we actually stop a lot of them -- and barricaded enemies. Definitely here to stay.
• The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in 308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700s. Great performance. Snipers have been using them heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a Marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record for confirmed kills with over 100.
• The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approximately six pounds and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even stop an AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as s*** to wear, almost unbearable in the summer heat, which averages over 120 degrees. Also, the enemy now goes for head shots whenever possible. All the bull**** about the "old" body armor making our guys vulnerable to improvised-explosive devices was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most cases.
• Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up. Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more of the enemy are being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen the videos.
• Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon-mounted and personal lights are Surefires, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations. [Name redacted] carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.

I can't help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old. With all our technology, it's the World War II- and Vietnam-era weapons that everybody wants. The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.
Bad guy weapons:
• Mostly AK47s. The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt-fed light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly shoots like s***. Undisciplined "spray and pray"-type fire. However, precision weapons are more and more common, especially sniper rifles. Fun fact: Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how hard they fight. They are apparently told in jihad school that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of toughness. Let's just say they know better now.
• The RPG: Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple, reliable and as common as dog****. The enemy responded to our up-armored Humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still killing a lot of our guys.
• The improvised-explosive device: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jerry-rigged artillery shells. A lot found in [name redacted]'s area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take two or three 155mm artillery shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone, and the explosions are enormous. You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank.
Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there. Lately, they are much more sophisticated "shape charges" (Iranian) specifically designed to penetrate armor. Fact: Most of the ready-made IEDs are supplied by Iran, the country which is also providing terrorists, Hezbollah types, to train the insurgents in their use and tactics. That's why the attacks have been so deadly lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape charges in Styrofoam containers spray-painted to look like the cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40 percent before they detonate. The bomb-disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.
• Mortars and rockets: Very prevalent. The Soviet-era 122mm rockets, with a range of 18 kilometers, are becoming more prevalent. One of [name redacted]'s NCOs lost a leg to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage "inside the wire." [Name redacted]'s base was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (it worked). More of a psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump out of vehicles, fire a few rounds and then haul *** in a matter of seconds.
Bad guy technology is simple yet effective. Most communication is by cell and satellite phones and also by email on laptops. They use handheld Global Positioning System units for navigation and "Google Earth" for overhead views of our positions. Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent. Their explosives and bomb technology is top of the line. Night vision is rare.
They are very careless with their equipment, however, and the captured GPS units and laptops are intelligence treasure troves when captured.
Who are the bad guys? Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi al Qaeda group. They operate mostly in Anbar province -- Fallujah and Ramadi. These are mostly "foreigners," that is, non-Iraqi Sunni Arab jihadists from all over the Muslim world and Europe. Most enter Iraq through Syria -- with, of course, the knowledge and complicity of the Syrian government -- and then travel down the "rat line" which is the trail of towns along the Euphrates River that we've been hitting hard for the last few months. Some are virtually untrained young jihadists who end up as suicide bombers or are used in "sacrifice squads."
Most, however, are hard-core terrorists from all the usual suspects -- al Qaeda, Hezbollah and Hamas. These are the guys running around murdering civilians en masse and cutting heads off. The Chechens, many of whom are Caucasian, are supposedly the most ruthless and the best fighters. In the Baghdad area and south, most of the insurgents are Iranian inspired and led Iraqi Shi'ites. The Iranian Shia have been very adept at infiltrating the Iraqi local government, police and army. Since the early 1980s during the Iran-Iraq war, they have had a massive spy and agitator network there. Most of the Saddam loyalists were killed, captured or gave up long ago.
Bad guy tactics: When the enemy is engaged on an infantry level they get their a**** kicked every time. Brave, but stupid. Suicidal banzai-type charges were very common earlier in the war and still occur. They will literally sacrifice eight-to-10 man teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing AKs and RPGs directly at our bases just to probe the defenses. They get mowed down like grass every time -- see the M2 and M240 above. [Name redacted]'s base was hit like this often. When engaged, the enemy has a tendency to flee to the same building, probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand. Instead, we call in air and that's the end of that, more often than not.
These hole-ups are referred to as "Alpha Whiskey Romeos" ("Allah's Waiting Room"). We have the laser-guided ground-air thing down to a science. The fast movers, mostly Marine F-18s, are taking an ever-increasing toll on the enemy. When caught out in the open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130 Spectre gunships cut them to ribbons with cannon and rocket fire, especially at night. Interestingly, artillery is hardly used at all. Fun fact: The enemy death toll is supposedly between 45,000 and 50,000. That is why we're seeing fewer and fewer infantry attacks and more improvised-explosive devices, suicide bomber s***. The new strategy is simple: attrition.
The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we can to avoid civilian casualties, so therefore schools, hospitals and especially mosques are locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons and ammo and flee to when engaged. They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for civilian casualties. They will terrorize locals and murder without hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the Americans or the new Iraqi government. Kidnapping of family members, especially children, is common to influence people they are trying to influence but cannot otherwise reach, such as local government officials, clerics or tribal leaders, etc.
The first thing our guys are told is, "don't get captured." They know that if captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the Internet. Zarqawi openly offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American serviceman.
This motivates the criminal element who otherwise don't give a s*** about the war. A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped by common criminals and sold to Zarqawi. As such, for our guys, every fight is to the death. Surrender is not an option.
The Iraqis are a mixed bag. Some fight well, others aren't worth a s***.
Most do okay with American support. Finding leaders is hard, but they are getting better. It is widely viewed that Zarqawi's use of suicide bombers, en masse, against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake.
Many Iraqis were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and the police forces went up, along with their motivation. It also led to an exponential increase in good intelligence because the Iraqis are sick of the insurgent attacks against civilians. The Kurds are solidly pro-American and fearless fighters.
According to [name redacted], morale among our guys is very high. They not only believe they are winning, but that they are winning decisively. They are stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom they almost universally view as against them. The embedded reporters are despised and distrusted. They are inflicting casualties at a rate of 20-1 and then see s*** like "Are we losing in Iraq?" on television and the print media.
For the most part, they are satisfied with their equipment, food and leadership. Bottom line, though, and they all say this: There are not enough guys there to drive the final stake through the heart of the insurgency, primarily because there aren't enough troops in-theater to shut down the borders with Iran and Syria. The Iranians and the Syrians just cannot stand the thought of Iraq being an American ally -- with, of course, permanent U.S. bases there.
That's it, hope you found it interesting, I sure did.
Deep Kimchi
22-11-2005, 16:06
Go to http://www.tacticalforums.com to read Jeff White's excellent line-by-line response to this factually deficient e-mail.

This email is a hoax.
Monkeypimp
22-11-2005, 16:14
I still don't get why the army stuck with the M-16 for so long.
Deep Kimchi
22-11-2005, 16:16
I still don't get why the army stuck with the M-16 for so long.
Because the updated version works extremely well.
Eutrusca
22-11-2005, 16:43
Go to http://www.tacticalforums.com to read Jeff White's excellent line-by-line response to this factually deficient e-mail.

This email is a hoax.
I don't think so. It was carried by the Washington Times and Military.com, both of which are good sources in my book. Besides, as I stated in the Commentary, the article is not contradicted by any of my personal contacts with returning soldiers and Marines.

NOTE: Snopes.com does not address this email as an "urban legend."
Deep Kimchi
22-11-2005, 16:44
I don't think so. It was carried by the Washington Times and Military.com, both of which are good sources in my book. Besides, as I stated in the Commentary, the article is not contradicted by any of my personal contacts with returning soldiers and Marines.

NOTE: Snopes.com does not address this email as an "urban legend."

The person debunking it is a personal contact in Iraq. I've met many who have debunked it, and none who thought it was accurate or truthful.
Mirchaz
22-11-2005, 16:49
Go to http://www.tacticalforums.com to read Jeff White's excellent line-by-line response to this factually deficient e-mail.

This email is a hoax.
can you provide the actual link to the post in question instead of just the forum?
Deep Kimchi
22-11-2005, 16:59
can you provide the actual link to the post in question instead of just the forum?
Their forum doesn't take a direct link. You need to Search the forum for a post named "General Tactical Forums - Ground Zero - A Report to Dad"

But, here's the info:

Originally posted by Jeff White:
:rolleyes: Not here too....
Well it's pretty full of inaccuracies and misinformation.


Subject: Great info from Iraq

1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because its lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also.Where is a Marine getting experience with the M4? They are very limited in the Corps with the only large number in use with Force Recon units and Det-1. Both units use the M4A1. Most of the rest of the Corps is using the M16A4.

The reports coming out of Iraq actually read this way with regards to reliability:

The M16 series received widespread praise for its durability and reliability. A few soldiers expressed a desire to be able to fire the weapon after pulling it out of the dirt (“like you can do with the AK” was the perception), but there were no trends of poor reliability. This may be attributed in part to the ease of maintenance reported by the soldiers. While keeping the weapons clean in this environment was a continuous requirement it was not considered to be a difficult one.


They like the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picattiny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits cant be reliably counted on to put the enemy down.Here we go again....."Stopping power is such a subjective thing. This is from the PM Soldier Assessment Team Report:
It is apparent that the close range lethality deficiency of the 5.56mm (M855) is more a matter of perception rather than fact, but there were some exceptions. The majority of the soldiers interviewed that voiced or desired “better knock-down power” or a larger caliber bullet did not have actual close engagements. Those that had close engagements and applied Close Quarters Battle (CQB) tactics, techniques, and procedures (TTPs) – controlled pairs in the lethal areas: chest and head and good shot placement, defeated the target without issue. Most that had to engage a target repeatedly remarked that they hit the target in non-vital areas such as the extremities. Some targets were reportedly hit in the chest numerous times, but required at least one shot to the head to defeat it. No lethality issues were voiced with targets engaged at 200 meters and beyond. It is apparent that with proper shot placement and marksmanship training, the M855 ammunition is lethal in close and long range. And a bit more on lethality:

Discussion: There have been many engagements with the M855 spanning ranges from 10 feet to 250 meters against soft targets (non-armored individuals) during OIF. Observations from the field cover many different responses from “I shot him in the gut and he ran away”, “I had to put multiple rounds in him to stop him”, to “I shot him in the chest and he went down” and “I shot him in the head and he dropped on the spot”. There are many different views on the lethality of this round ranging from the need for a heavier bullet (the need for more stopping power), to “We have no complaints with the M855 ammunition. It is satisfying the operational need.” One brigade of soldiers interviewed made a very interesting statement concerning the lethality of the M855. Their focus groups indicated that based on proper target acquisition with the improved M68 (CCO), shot placement, basic rifle marksmanship, and firing controlled pairs they were very satisfied with the round’s performance/ terminal effects.

Recommendations: A Government Lethality IPT has been stood up to standardize GEL block testing and an engineering study will be conducted extensive, soft target terminal effects of COTS and military 5.56mm ammunition. The characteristics of each bullet terminal performance will be determined. Based on requirements and using the engineering information, a new round should be type classified and made available. The complete report is available here:
http://www.bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm


Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.I have heard nothing about random autopsies on insurgents. I rather doubt that this is happening due to considerations for the perceptions of the Iraqi people. There would be a huge outcry not only on Al Jezerra but in our press that we were "mutilating" the enemy dead....


2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of ????. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly. (that fun in the middle of a firefight).First off, it's the M249 SAW and it's not drum fed. It's belt fed. Granted, the plastic box magazines the 200 rd belts come in, could be mistaken for a drum magazine by someone who had never seen one before, but I would think that a Marine would know the nomenclature of this weapon. Also most units are buying the nylon bags to carry the belts in because they don't rattle and fall off like the plastic box magazines,


3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.Well the M9 has had all kinds of problems with the aftermarket magaines the military is buying, but the author leaves this out. It's been documented in many offical AARs that the Checkmate brand magazines are junk, yet they haven't been recalled and soldiers and Marines are still having problems with them.


4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.The Marines are using the Benelli 1014 shotgun. They may still field the Mossberg in some quantity. Hate to bust the author's bubble, but shotguns are used to breech. With the restrictive rules of engagement, rifles and precise shooting is the order of the day for clearing operations. Buckshot and slugs are hard to aquire in country and I have a friend who said they used birdshot to scare people who approached too close to convoys.


5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!). Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts em down. Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.The Army and Marines have used the M240 for years. It's the standard platoon level machine gun. They don't have to dismount them from the vehicles. The dismount kits for the M240 thats the coax gun in the Abrams and Bradley is very hard to come by. If they dismounted the M240 from the turret, it's most likely unusable in a ground mount role.


6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. Ma deuce is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper, puts their dicks in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

7) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put em down with a torso hit.Force Recon and Det 1 are the Marine units carrying .45s. There are couple Army units that don't really exist using 1911 types and Glock 19s.


The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it.The special ops guys are using SIGs (Navy Special Warfare), M9s (Army, Air Force), MEUSOC 1911 (USMC Force Recon), Kimber 1911 (USMC Det 1) Various 1911s and Glock 19s (unnamed Army SOF). As a side note Springfield Armory was recently given a contract to build the new MEUSOC pistol.

The old government model .45s are being re-issued en masse.Not true at all.

8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.Again not true. Some units are using modified M14s with commercial aftermarket stocks, but they are not being issued in bulk. None of the aftermarket stocks currently in use is made of kevlar.


9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers ( we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy. Definitely here to stay.A single shot even from a .50 BMG isn't enough to stop a vehicle. Machine guns, especially the M2 are most used to stop car bombs. They are used to remotely detonate IEDs that are discovered and you'll find a lot of them in the hands of EOD.

10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700s. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcocks record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.The Marines don't use the M24. They use the M40, the current iteration being the M40A3. No M24s are fielded in 300 Winchester Magnum, even though they are built on the Remington long action to make this possible.

11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round.We only wish it weighed 6 pounds. The IBAS with SAPI plates weighs in at just under 16 pounds and when you add in the neck, shoulder and groin protection you're back up over 20 pounds.

I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!!!!!!!!! With all our technology, its the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!!! The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.I can't help but notice the author doesn't know squat about our current weapons and how they are employed. It seems to me that this is another missive written to justify someones personal opinions about what weapons our troops should be issued.

Bad guy weapons:

1) Mostly AK47s . The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably..308 Russian???? Who makes that? Is it a cusotm loading? How come the Iraqi insurgents don't use the more common 7.62x39 round? Saddam must have left tons of it stockpiled around the country. That would greatly simplify their logistics...........


3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in Jordans area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155mm artillery shells and wire them together.The enemy didn't use 155mm howitzers...perhaps the author means 152mm??

It's been awhile since I've seen something this full of misinformation spread across the internet. I notice that these reports from the front always seem to come from a Marine. Every Marine or former Marine I've been privileged to know or serve with no matter what his rank, knew more basic information about his weapons then whoever wrote this.

Jeff
Myrmidonisia
22-11-2005, 17:03
can you provide the actual link to the post in question instead of just the forum?
I was trying to find it, too. That's a big forum.
Daistallia 2104
22-11-2005, 17:34
Their forum doesn't take a direct link. You need to Search the forum for a post named "General Tactical Forums - Ground Zero - A Report to Dad"

But, here's the info:


I was all with that debunking up to the end, when the author says:
3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in Jordans area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155mm artillery shells and wire them together.

The enemy didn't use 155mm howitzers...perhaps the author means 152mm??

All I can say is what happened to Iraq's 300 some odd South African G5s and 85 odd AUF-1 French SP pieces? Those are most certainly 155mm not 152mm. Oops. ;)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/ground-equipment.htm
Deep Kimchi
22-11-2005, 17:42
I was all with that debunking up to the end, when the author says:


All I can say is what happened to Iraq's 300 some odd South African G5s and 85 odd AUF-1 French SP pieces? Those are most certainly 155mm not 152mm. Oops. ;)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/ground-equipment.htm

Considering the thousands of 152mm howitzers they have, 300 is a fairly small sample. You're far more likely to run across 152mm munitions.
Daistallia 2104
22-11-2005, 17:49
I don't think so. It was carried by the Washington Times and Military.com, both of which are good sources in my book. Besides, as I stated in the Commentary, the article is not contradicted by any of my personal contacts with returning soldiers and Marines.

NOTE: Snopes.com does not address this email as an "urban legend."

It's quite possible those two got suckered in. And as for snopes.com, their forums often cover things like this. I didn't see it there, but posted it here: http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/ubb/get_topic/f/48/t/000487.html
Eutrusca
22-11-2005, 17:49
The person debunking it is a personal contact in Iraq. I've met many who have debunked it, and none who thought it was accurate or truthful.
Hey! My contacts can whip yer contacts! :p
Eutrusca
22-11-2005, 17:51
It's quite possible those two got suckered in. And as for snopes.com, their forums often cover things like this. I didn't see it there, but posted it here: http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/ubb/get_topic/f/48/t/000487.html
Kewl. Let me know if they respond. If they say it's "legend" then I'll withdraw it. :)
Eutrusca
22-11-2005, 17:53
Their forum doesn't take a direct link. You need to Search the forum for a post named "General Tactical Forums - Ground Zero - A Report to Dad"

But, here's the info:
So who is Jeff White???
Daistallia 2104
22-11-2005, 17:56
Considering the thousands of 152mm howitzers they have, 300 is a fairly small sample. You're far more likely to run across 152mm munitions.

Well, that source lists ~3,500 total towed and SP arty pieces in 1990, of which 385 were 155mm. That's just over 10%, so it would be percipitous to say "The enemy didn't use 155mm howitzers".
Deep Kimchi
22-11-2005, 17:58
Jeff White is a former soldier, nationally known firearms expert, shooter, and trainer of law enforcement and military experts.
Eutrusca
22-11-2005, 17:59
Jeff White is a former soldier, nationally known firearms expert, shooter, and trainer of law enforcement and military experts.
Good for him. Never heard of him before though, so far as I can remember.
Deep Kimchi
22-11-2005, 18:01
Good for him. Never heard of him before though, so far as I can remember.

He's also a moderator over on the forum, The High Road.
Beer and Guns
22-11-2005, 18:12
Go to http://www.tacticalforums.com to read Jeff White's excellent line-by-line response to this factually deficient e-mail.

This email is a hoax.

wow... thanks for that link ! cant find where that e- mail is a hoax though..it actually says alot of the same things my family members and friends are saying from over there..we are buying .45's for them as Christmas gifts along with shoulder rigs and extra mags . I sent over a nice Mini 14 ..unassembled in a box...it seems to have evaporated though ..no confirmation yet that its been recieved...there also seems to be a bit of a dicey situation about sending stuff that goes bang over there .
Beer and Guns
22-11-2005, 18:19
Their forum doesn't take a direct link. You need to Search the forum for a post named "General Tactical Forums - Ground Zero - A Report to Dad"

But, here's the info:


Well that was very informative and nicely done ...he called have just said " bullshit " instead of the great education he gives us .
Deep Kimchi
22-11-2005, 18:28
Well that was very informative and nicely done ...he called have just said " bullshit " instead of the great education he gives us .
Some forums and posters are more informative than others.

When I want to read something factual, I go to lightfighter to their closed forums (they have a military forum that is closed to people who are not certified as current or prior military or current law enforcement). They also have people who currently work in the military in Iraq and Afghanistan, in Special Forces, EOD, and private security contractor work. There's also a poster on lightfighter who runs a counterterrorism firm and writes books on the subject.
Ravenshrike
24-12-2005, 01:03
Their forum doesn't take a direct link. You need to Search the forum for a post named "General Tactical Forums - Ground Zero - A Report to Dad"

But, here's the info:

.308 Russian???? Who makes that? Is it a cusotm loading? How come the Iraqi insurgents don't use the more common 7.62x39 round? Saddam must have left tons of it stockpiled around the country. That would greatly simplify their logistics...........

Heh. Same thing. Just converted to inches from millimeters. Mind you, most people don't refer to it as such, but it's really perfectly acceptable since to the best of my knowledge the only other .308/7.62 round the russians make is the 7.62X54R. Which should always have the R since it is rimmed.