NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/4459252.stm

English 'should reclaim identity'

Anyone find this slightly ironic: Multiculturalism has left the English embarrassed about celebrating their true national identity, Britain's first black archbishop has said.

I speak as a foreigner really," he told the newspaper.

"The English are somehow embarrassed about some of the good things they have done

What is it to be English? It is a very serious question. When you ask a lot of people in this country they are very vague.

Well Englishmen? What does it mean to you to be 'English'? What do non-English think it means to be English? Tea and Crumpets? :p

Our national identity is based on perpetual dissapointment at the performance of the footy team.

Multiculturalism gave us the curry shop and a bloody great Kurdish restaurant in Portsmouth.

I leave you to decide which is better...

Anyone find this slightly ironic:
Very ironic. Not only is the new Archbishop of York in the Church of England a Ugandan by birth, but his senior colleague, the Archbishop of Canterbury, is Welsh :)

Having said that, I don't see anything strange in an outsider recognizing qualities and chracteristics which we ourselves may be neglecting. Bishop Sentamu has been living in England since 1974, and has been a bishop in Stepney and Birmingham, so I don't think his view of the English is limited to the "tea and crumpets" culture!

It means we understand the concept of Irony.

I don't really see why a national identity is so important. We're all citizens of the world.

Anyone find this slightly ironic:

Pleasurably so: a Ugandan born man suggesting that the English should properly mark the feast day of someone who is effectively a Turk. Yay for the mongrel races of Albion.*


* speaking as a non-Englishman here (Scots-Irish, by the way).

It is idiotic and racist to suggest that any national/ethinc group is superior/inferior to one another, but it's equaly stupid to suggest that we're all the same. Everyone is in a National group, like it or not.

For example, Britain stays roughly the same in language and culture for 780 miles Lands End to John O' Groats. But cross 20 miles of water to France and it's a completley different (though not better or worse) culture and language. The same is true all over the world.

It is idiotic and racist to suggest that any national/ethinc group is superior/inferior to one another, but it's equaly stupid to suggest that we're all the same. Everyone is in a National group, like it or not.

For example, Britain stays roughly the same in language and culture for 780 miles Lands End to John O' Groats. But cross 20 miles of water to France and it's a completley different (though not better or worse) culture and language. The same is true all over the world.

Interesting. How does Northern Ireland fit into this worldview? Do the tens of miles between us and Scotland make us 'completely different'?

There's nothing ironic at all about an immigrant praising English culture. Sometimes an outsider can see things about a culture that someone within that culture may be blind to - a case of "fish don't see the water". As an example, let me point to Alexis de Tocqueville, America's favorite Frenchman, who in the 1830s wrote an early survey of the culture of the United States - one that Americans still find insightful today.

Archbishop Sentamu made some good points about what English culture has given the world, and given him specifically. They aren't points that should be lightly dismissed. England has a right to be proud of its culture.

:p

I don't really see why a national identity is so important. We're all citizens of the world.

Maybe you should actuly think befor you post? You need some sort of identity, and most people do not see them self as citizen of the world. And in truth the consept only exist in some libs world image.

Our national identity is based on perpetual dissapointment at the performance of the footy team.

Multiculturalism gave us the curry shop and a bloody great Kurdish restaurant in Portsmouth.

I leave you to decide which is better...

:rolleyes:

Well Englishmen? What does it mean to you to be 'English'? What do non-English think it means to be English? Tea and Crumpets?

Tea at least, and football.

For example, Britain stays roughly the same in language and culture for 780 miles Lands End to John O' Groats. But cross 20 miles of water to France and it's a completley different (though not better or worse) culture and language. The same is true all over the world.
I'm not convinced of that. I suspect that a southern English professional of middle-class upbringing would feel more at home with his Parisian counterparts than he would in a working class Geordi community. He'd probably find it easier to understand the Parisians too :)

I'm not convinced of that. I suspect that a southern English professional of middle-class upbringing would feel more at home with his Parisian counterparts than he would in a working class Geordi community. He'd probably find it easier to understand the Parisians too :)

Proof of this kind of thing: the English people on NS feel more comfortable chatting with a mostly anonymous, largely American, population here than nipping round for a chat with their next-door neighbours.

Maybe you should actuly think befor you post? You need some sort of identityWhy? And why a national one? Why not regional?
What makes you think I didn't think before I posted? Have you even thought about the subject? Ever even thought about what identity is?

Very ironic. Not only is the new Archbishop of York in the Church of England a Ugandan by birth, but his senior colleague, the Archbishop of Canterbury, is Welsh :)


And, the most influential living writer in the Greek Orthodox Church at the moment is English.. (Bishop Ware, I'm referring to). Whacky antics at every turn nowadays..

And, the most influential living writer in the Greek Orthodox Church at the moment is English.. (Bishop Ware, I'm referring to). Whacky antics at every turn nowadays..
But my question is, what identity is there to reclaim?

Maybe you should actuly think befor you post? You need some sort of identity, and most people do not see them self as citizen of the world. And in truth the consept only exist in some libs world image.
No it doesn't. Many people today live very cosmopolitan lives, and don't put a great deal of store by their nationality. I'm pure English by ancestry (at least for the last 200 years), but my upbringing, working life, friends, relatives and cultural tastes are multi-national.

Tea at least, and football.
... and I don't drink tea and don't watch football :)

A 'national identity' is a stereotype that foreigners can use to describe us. I'm not sure why we would want one of those. I've never even understood the concept. There is so much variation in this country, and every other country, that applying a 'national identity' to it (or any other) would just be a grossly inaccurate generalisation.

But my question is, what identity is there to reclaim?
You have to reclaim your identity as pipe smokers in satin jackets who lounge around and say "quite" at random intervals.
Every Englishmen should get a mandatory pipe at once if you are ever to reclaim your cultural heritage! Oh, and you have to remaster the art of the flying monocle when you see something shocking, for too long has that national past time been abandoned.

Well Englishmen? What does it mean to you to be 'English'? What do non-English think it means to be English? Tea and Crumpets? :p

Isn't that where you all live like Hobbits?

Isn't that where you all live like Hobbits?
I'll ignore that. I'm not English :mad: :p

There is no such thing as an English 'identity' because it changes so frequently and diversely that trying to quantify it would be impossible. I personally am proud (as an Englishman) that this is the case and we don't cling to an outdated national stereotype, but prefer to move on (regardless of what people in the Daily Mail or Telegraph like to assert).

Unfotunately i dont know what it means to be english.but i know what it means to be irish.
It means we're not fuckin english,thats what!

Hullo fellow Brits and foreigners who just fancy making fun of us.
I dont like our old identity. i dont think you would either. Lets go colonize somewhere and treat the people like crap! whereas America for instance simply invades a country imposes its will and treats people like Crap...
Sorry couldnt resist. Anyway, National Ident gets in the way of Internationalism. Go Europe! woot.

You have to reclaim your identity as pipe smokers in satin jackets who lounge around and say "quite" at random intervals.
Every Englishmen should get a mandatory pipe at once if you are ever to reclaim your cultural heritage! Oh, and you have to remaster the art of the flying monocle when you see something shocking, for too long has that national past time been abandoned. Fiddlebottoms the Eighth, one of your supposedly unserious comments has again proven itself to be of value. Let's be nice and middle class once again, and reserved, and polite, and brave under enemy fire. That's English for you.:)

Well i'm more of a stereotypical Englishman, i do drink a heck of alot of tea, partake of biscuits whenever the chance arises and i like wearing a suit whenever possible, three piece at all times.

But i hate football.

The entirety of English identity can be experienced by watching Monty Python, Mystery, and Masterpiece theater. Oh, and Keeping Up Appearences

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

American identity can be summarized by playing GTA.

But my question is, what identity is there to reclaim?
Excuse me, I am not British, but this is a rather odd question to ask. Britain is one of the world's oldest and most glorious cultures. It has a beautifully complex language, which is an amalgam of germanic, latin and greek. It was once the greatest empire ever to rule this world, and the only to be ruled by not one, but two great Queens, shadowing all its kings. We fail to see British identity as the world accepts English as the international language, as well as English concepts of law and order and tradition. In doing so, we fail to realise that its not Britain that has lost its identity, but us that have inherited it. Victorian England shaped the modern world in more ways than one. Once, sang-froid was the most defining characteristic of what it is to be British. From this arose the politeness, ability to organise and order and remain rational in the most trying of circumstances. In essence, Britain is a fascinating combination of German order, French sophistication and its very own traditions. Yet, indeed Britain's culture is eroding...I speak French, German and Greek, as well as fluent English, and of all four languages, English is the one which has been disfigured the most. Naturally, languages evolve. Yet it seems English is in fact devolving. A pity.

Let me make another point. Multiculturalism is NOT generally the same as one seamlessly integrating into a foreign society. If an african integrates perfectly into British culture, he may in time become British. This form of multiculturalism appeals to me. Those which seek to erode the host culture do not, for instance the inability of many Muslims to accept French culture as the one to embrace, trying to make France an extension of the arab world :rolleyes: . Should you move to another country, you must be willing to accept its traditions and culture, and integrate. Now, as I am South African with dutch blood, now living in Europe, I can say that my ancestors did the exact opposite as conquerors and colonialists. What is done is done though, and Que sera, sera. Hopefully we can preserve what we have left of European culture ( I consider myself a European on all accounts), before it erodes into some American mixture, effectively making us Euro-trash.

Excuse me, I am not British, but this is a rather odd question to ask. Britain is one of the world's oldest and most glorious cultures. It has a beautifully complex language, which is an amalgam of germanic, latin and greek. It was once the greatest empire ever to rule this world, and the only to be ruled by not one, but two great Queens, shadowing all its kings. We fail to see British identity as the world accepts English as the international language, as well as English concepts of law and order and tradition. In doing so, we fail to realise that its not Britain that has lost its identity, but us that have inherited it. Victorian England shaped the modern world in more ways than one. Once, sang-froid was the most defining characteristic of what it is to be British. From this arose the politeness, ability to organise and order and remain rational in the most trying of circumstances. In essence, Britain is a fascinating combination of German order, French sophistication and its very own traditions. Yet, indeed Britain's culture is eroding...I speak French, German and Greek, as well as fluent English, and of all four languages, English is the one which has been disfigured the most. Naturally, languages evolve. Yet it seems English is in fact devolving. A pity.

Let me make another point. Multiculturalism is NOT generally the same as one seamlessly integrating into a foreign society. If an african integrates perfectly into British culture, he may in time become British. This form of multiculturalism appeals to me. Those which seek to erode the host culture do not, for instance the inability of many Muslims to accept French culture as the one to embrace, trying to make France an extension of the arab world :rolleyes: . Should you move to another country, you must be willing to accept its traditions and culture, and integrate. Now, as I am South African with dutch blood, now living in Europe, I can say that my ancestors did the exact opposite as conquerors and colonialists. What is done is done though, and Que sera, sera. Hopefully we can preserve what we have left of European culture ( I consider myself a European on all accounts), before it erodes into some American mixture, effectively making us Euro-trash.

I didn't ask about 'British' identity- I asked about English identity. BIG difference. There is no unique underlying Britishness- you're makking the common mistake of confusing British with English- something that the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish are sure not to take kindly ;)

Does 'Englishness' exist? Or is it merely stereotypes concreted in the modern mentality?

Sometimes trying to discover your cultural roots is a really bad idea, you know. I'm a good example of an American mutt, I'm at LEAST part french, scots-irish, english, german, and cherokee, but I doubt that's all I am.

Then I was referring to englishness...and as I said, the fact that the UK shaped the modern world is perhaps why we cannot perceive English identity. Transport yourself back to the Victorian Age, when England was at its most english phase.

I disagree...I am proud of my European heritage.

Transport yourself back to the Victorian Age, when England was at its most english phase. No, no. Hypocrisy, double standards and all sorts of jiggery-pokery behind the scenes just aren't cricket, dear chap.

I am English and British and European.
To me England is the soil beneath my feet that I can dig my hands into and connect with the spirits of my ancestors both of body and of spirit.
yes, we're a mongrul race but that is our greatest attribute. Any English racists should really look to their own ancestors and where they came from.
Any nationality should be rooted in it's past and it's own soil.

Oh, and what I meant by my previous quote, is that if I tried to figure out all of my cultural roots, I'd have a LOT to go through, I think I'd end up having split personalities.

I see :) My conclusion is that English culture is difficult to define...its there, but you can't quite put it in words...you have to experience it. That could be what makes it so special.

I don't really see why a national identity is so important.

take it from a country that knows - you will when it is gone

take it from a country that knows - you will when it is goneWe don't have much of a national identity either.
Although, naturally, plenty of people have a stereotype about us. But that's certainly not anything we identify with.

No it doesn't. Many people today live very cosmopolitan lives, and don't put a great deal of store by their nationality. I'm pure English by ancestry (at least for the last 200 years), but my upbringing, working life, friends, relatives and cultural tastes are multi-national.


... and I don't drink tea and don't watch football :)

Dont confuse Europe and Amerika with the World. A small minority of the worlds population think that way.

I am English and British and European.
To me England is the soil beneath my feet that I can dig my hands into and connect with the spirits of my ancestors both of body and of spirit.
yes, we're a mongrul race but that is our greatest attribute. Any English racists should really look to their own ancestors and where they came from.
Any nationality should be rooted in it's past and it's own soil.

:) Beautiful.


I'm Scottish and moved to Cambridgeshire a year ago. For all the supposed emnity between the Scots and English, I've had a fabulous time. My family has been welcomed, I've joined the village cricket team, the beer is marvelous and the people (by and large) are very, very tolerant of differences. The English sense of nationality is a strange thing, and I don't believe that you can artificialy create one if there isn't one there. But bearing in mind how difficult it is to explain the notion of being Scottish/British or English/British it really sin't all that surprising.

Very ironic. Not only is the new Archbishop of York in the Church of England a Ugandan by birth, but his senior colleague, the Archbishop of Canterbury, is Welsh :)

And don't forget that our head of state is German.:p

Interesting. How does Northern Ireland fit into this worldview? Do the tens of miles between us and Scotland make us 'completely different'?

err... I doubt N.Ireland was deliberately left out, to be fair it would only have made the whole image that person was giving more confused...

Oh, and the top three qualities which England needs to reclaim IMO are:

1. Politeness
2. Sang-froid (to a degree)
3. TEA!!! (not that we really need to reclaim tea-drinking but it's still important).

Out of interest, who here's seen the scene in 'Monty Python's Meaning of Life' with the english soldiers in Africa?:D

I don't like tea... but there are few things more english than a cuppa... a pint of ale perhaps? Oh damn, I drink lager!

I love tea, English bitter, cricket and a lot of my favourite dishes are English (Meat and potato pie, fish and chips, roast dinners and English breakfast). However I also love Indian and Mexican food - i'm addicted to anything spicy.

I think the thing about England is that the culture is so varied that the identity is difficult to place. But that's why i'd prefer to live here than anywhere else :)