NationStates Jolt Archive

If you live in a shitty neighbourhood and you go out for a two week holiday and you leave your door unlocked and wide open, don't be surprised to come back and find everything gone. I'm not saying that women are responsible for being raped, but they can be fucking stupid about it. I doubt an insurance company would cover it.
So you wouldn't want to see the robbers prosecuted? If you say that women can prevent it, then you are giving them responsibility for it, and if you say they shouldn't complain about it, then you are saying they deserve it.

I never said anything about society pressuring men to rape women. I said society pressures men to have sex.
And I'm saying that's true and it's wrong and unfair to men and if society wants to apply pressure, maybe it should push in a different direction. Anyway, that wasn't directed to you. It was directed to a troll of my acquaintance.

So, you're saying that society pressures men to rape women..No. I did not say that.

Lets run the whole exchange again.
________________________

You asked (and I quote)
Society pressures you to have sex?
IMO It can happen and it does happen (sometimes society pressures you to have sex)

thats why I answered with 2 word ("peer pressure") and a funny pic.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10648966&postcount=982

If you have ever been in high School USA.. You would know what I am talking about.(and I am sure it happens in other countries too)

So you wouldn't want to see the robbers prosecuted? If you say that women can prevent it, then you are giving them responsibility for it, and if you say they shouldn't complain about it, then you are saying they deserve it.

Again, you're adding your own spin onto everything I'm saying. I never said I wouldn't want to see the robbers prosecuted. I'm saying your stupid for leaving your door open. I'm not saying they shouldn't complain about it, I'm saying they were stupid to increase the chance of it happening.

No. I did not say that.

Lets run the whole exchange again.
________________________

You asked (and I quote)

IMO It can happen and it does happen (sometimes society pressures you to have sex)

thats why I answered with 2 word ("peer pressure") and a funny pic.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10648966&postcount=982

If you have ever been in high School USA.. You would know what I am talking about.(and I am sure it happens in other countries too)
Yes, I did go to a US high school but it wasn't a typical one. It was a NYC "magnet" school -- a kind of college-prep/vocational hybrid for white collar professions. Mine specialized in commercial arts. For purposes of this discussion, that means that nobody in my school had ever been popular or ever did anything normal teens did. We called the place The Island of Misfit Toys. Half of us were gay, the rest lonely, and we were all bitter, career-obsessed, deadline-driven workaholics -- 15 going on 57. We all dated back and forth, but it wasn't like other kids' schools. We did have one pregnant classmate, but as I recall, nobody really cared much. We had deadlines to think about. Sigh. Happy times.

ANYWAY, when I asked that question I was sarcastically showing that your statement is irrelevant to this topic. Pressure to have sex is not pressure to rape. You may feel raped by society, and you may make a valid argument for that which I would not try to argue against -- I might even agree with it. But it's not an excuse for raping someone else -- and this thread is about people who try to make excuses for rape.

This is a more serious answer than a troll like you have earned. Do you feel like being serious now, or are you just going to start calling me stupid again?

I might even agree with it. But it's not an excuse for raping someone else -- and this thread is about people who try to make excuses for rape.

There is a difference between excuse and reason. The latter of the two apply here. While sociological pressure does not excuse the rapist, it should be considered when giving sentance for instance.

Again, you're adding your own spin onto everything I'm saying. I never said I wouldn't want to see the robbers prosecuted. I'm saying your stupid for leaving your door open. I'm not saying they shouldn't complain about it, I'm saying they were stupid to increase the chance of it happening.
But do you think that the stupid person deserves to be raped? Everyone thinks that "justice" is just another name for the workings of the law. But "justice" also means "balance," "even-ness" -- you know, the balanced scales of Justice. The punishment has to balance out the crime. We consider that it is unjust to hang a man for stealing a loaf of bread. What he loses by the punishment is far greater than the cost of the bread. Is it stupid to leave your door unlocked? Maybe, but if you came home during the robbery, would you deserve to be killed by the robbers for your mistake? Is it stupid to get blind drunk with strangers? Yes, but does your mistake justify a stranger's choice to rape you?

I say it does not, and I further say that those who argue otherwise (not you, but others) also know it's unfair. They have ulterior motives for arguing that a woman provokes rape. When you go after them and make them parse out all the different situations in which rape can occur -- drunken partying; date rape; stranger rape; break-in rape; rape by coercion; etc, etc. -- you find they keep widening the situations in which they would be willing to blame the woman, and they keep narrowing the ways in which she could avoid getting raped -- fewer and fewer words to signal a guy to back off; fewer and fewer safe places she can go; fewer and fewer "modest" outfits she can wear, until finally there's nothing she can do right. They say they don't blame the victim, but they will not allow of instances in which the woman is actually a victim. So they keep blaming her and letting the guy escape any responsibility.

There is a difference between excuse and reason. The latter of the two apply here. While sociological pressure does not excuse the rapist, it should be considered when giving sentance for instance.
From you of all people I would only just love to hear the "reasons" for rape.

But do you think that the stupid person deserves to be raped? Obviously not. I don't think that the person who left his door open deserved to be robbed either, but it doesn't mean they weren't stupid for leaving it open.

Everyone thinks that "justice" is just another name for the workings of the law. But "justice" also means "balance," "even-ness" -- you know, the balanced scales of Justice. The punishment has to balance out the crime. We consider that it is unjust to hang a man for stealing a loaf of bread. What he loses by the punishment is far greater than the cost of the bread. Funny, I always thought prison was about rehabilitation, not punishment.

Is it stupid to leave your door unlocked? Maybe, but if you came home during the robbery, would you deserve to be killed by the robbers for your mistake? Is it stupid to get blind drunk with strangers? Yes, but does your mistake justify a stranger's choice to rape you?I never said it did justify anything. Again, you're making crap up and expecting me to argue it.

I say it does not, and I further say that those who argue otherwise (not you, but others) also know it's unfair. They have ulterior motives for arguing that a woman provokes rape. When you go after them and make them parse out all the different situations in which rape can occur -- drunken partying; date rape; stranger rape; break-in rape; rape by coercion; etc, etc. -- you find they keep widening the situations in which they would be willing to blame the woman, and they keep narrowing the ways in which she could avoid getting raped -- fewer and fewer words to signal a guy to back off; fewer and fewer safe places she can go; fewer and fewer "modest" outfits she can wear, until finally there's nothing she can do right. They say they don't blame the victim, but they will not allow of instances in which the woman is actually a victim. So they keep blaming her and letting the guy escape any responsibility. I think that many people became confused with this study. They thought that "would she be responsible if" actually meant "would it increase the chances of her getting raped if". Of course, that's just a personal belief of mine because I have never met ANYONE that has thought that the blame can lie with the raped, rather than the rapist. Australian culture is diferent to American however, so who know...

Obviously not. I don't think that the person who left his door open deserved to be robbed either, but it doesn't mean they weren't stupid for leaving it open.
I agree with this. Being stupid, foolish, or simply ignorant of real conditions does not mean one "deserves" to be a victim: nothing does. However, we advise our friends to lock their doors because we understand the society in which we live. The "rules" (not necessarily the "laws") of this society may be unfair--which means we should make every effort to change them--but it would be unwise to pretend we live in a world other than the real one.

Thus, I would never blame a woman for being raped. EVER.

Still, even as I attempt to advise my male students on how to reconsider their assumptions about heterosexual sex, I make suggestions to my female students such as:

1) If you must go to parties, go with friends and leave with friends.
2) Never accept a drink that is handed to you, even if you think you can trust the person giving it to you. He/she may have gotten it from someone less trustworthy, or maybe they were not as worthy of your trust as you thought. It's not worth the risk just to avoid going to the bar yourself.
3) You do not have to "keep up" with anyone's drinking.
4) Try not to walk alone late at night, especially in unfamiliar areas. (At most universities, the police offer no-questions-asked rides to anyone who calls.)
5) (And others...)

It is truly unfortunate that I feel the need to give this advice. However, I would be remiss to avoid it in a world in which such advice may save a woman serious pain, trauma, humiliation and possibly even death.

At the same time, I do everything in my power to change this world. Some day, I hope that I no longer have to give this advice.

Of course, it is also true that I rarely (if ever) mention anything about how a woman dresses... If she takes reasonable precautions, it should not matter anyway, and I do believe that this is really an "excuse" used by rapists and the apologists for rapists. Nothing a woman wears, and no amount of flirtation, constitutes "asking for it," and to argue that it does begs the assumption that men are incapable of "controlling" themselves. I do not believe this to be the case, while I believe that making this argument only tends to perpetuate this belief, and therefore to perpetuate the world that I hope to destroy.

Meanwhile, I am aware of utterly no evidence that, other "risk factors" (as those above) aside, a woman's dress or flirtatiousness has anything to do with her being raped. (My father, who did an experiment that treated sex-offenders as his Ph.D. dissertation in psychology, agrees.)

Obviously not. I don't think that the person who left his door open deserved to be robbed either, but it doesn't mean they weren't stupid for leaving it open.

Funny, I always thought prison was about rehabilitation, not punishment.

I never said it did justify anything. Again, you're making crap up and expecting me to argue it.

I think that many people became confused with this study. They thought that "would she be responsible if" actually meant "would it increase the chances of her getting raped if". Of course, that's just a personal belief of mine because I have never met ANYONE that has thought that the blame can lie with the raped, rather than the rapist. Australian culture is diferent to American however, so who know...
I'm not making crap up. I'm asking you to put your argument into the context of the wider debate, rather than talk in a vacuum as if these are only theoretical issues. If you deny that there are people out the real world -- or even in this very thread -- who think as I describe, then say so.

Trust me, if Australian culture is so different from US culture in this regard, then you are all very lucky. The USA is becoming a scary, scary place. But we can talk just about what is in this thread, if you want examples of what I'm complaining about.

Yes, I did go to a US high school but it wasn't a typical one. It was a NYC "magnet" school -- a kind of college-prep/vocational hybrid for white collar professions. Mine specialized in commercial arts. For purposes of this discussion, that means that nobody in my school had ever been popular or ever did anything normal teens did. We called the place The Island of Misfit Toys. Half of us were gay, the rest lonely, and we were all bitter, career-obsessed, deadline-driven workaholics -- 15 going on 57. We all dated back and forth, but it wasn't like other kids' schools. We did have one pregnant classmate, but as I recall, nobody really cared much. We had deadlines to think about. Sigh. Happy times.well then let me tell you about the typical High Schools.. There is peer presure...

sometimes some older teens will Lie
"of course I have done it"
.. Just to scape that pressure

Is it stupid to leave your door unlocked? Maybe, but if you came home during the robbery, would you deserve to be killed by the robbers for your mistake? Is it stupid to get blind drunk with strangers? Yes, but does your mistake justify a stranger's choice to rape you?
This doesn't have any relevance to what I've said.

... Do you feel like being serious now, or are you just going to start calling me stupid again?I don't think I ever said I was joking here...

someone called you stupid?
well.. You keep spinning other posters words (mine too) ...maybe that is why?

<snipped for length>
It is truly unfortunate that I feel the need to give this advice. However, I would be remiss to avoid it in a world in which such advice may save a woman serious pain, trauma, humiliation and possibly even death.

At the same time, I do everything in my power to change this world. Some day, I hope that I no longer have to give this advice.

Of course, it is also true that I rarely (if ever) mention anything about how a woman dresses... If she takes reasonable precautions, it should not matter anyway, and I do believe that this is really an "excuse" used by rapists and the apologists for rapists. Nothing a woman wears, and no amount of flirtation, constitutes "asking for it," and to argue that it does begs the assumption that men are incapable of "controlling" themselves. I do not believe this to be the case, while I believe that making this argument only tends to perpetuate this belief, and therefore to perpetuate the world that I hope to destroy.

Meanwhile, I am aware of utterly no evidence that, other "risk factors" (as those above) aside, a woman's dress or flirtatiousness has anything to do with her being raped. (My father, who did an experiment that treated sex-offenders as his Ph.D. dissertation in psychology, agrees.)
Beautifully well put, as usual.

Another dismaying detail to me is that the advice for women to stay safe from rape is the same as advice to avoid getting robbed or murdered and should be followed by both men and women. Yet there is such focus on what women do in society that it gets overlooked that these rules are not just about rape or about women. We live in a dangerous world, and we should all do these things for the exact same reasons we would stick to sheltered walkways if we lived in a war zone and might be picked off by snipers. The existence of such threats doesn't mean we should never go anywhere, just that we should be careful of how we get about.

I'll go to my grave saying that these people who insist that something a woman does -- her dress, her behavior, the hours she keeps -- actually provokes rape are just making excuses for an attitude that grants men a terroristic power over women. I believe that only the tiniest, deviant minority of people actually would want to use such power over someone else, so I am far more upset by the number of people who would never do it, but still buy into the concept. All it would achieve is to limit the freedoms of women, and I can't help thinking that's the (unconscious) motive behind it.

This doesn't have any relevance to what I've said.
It's an illustrative example of what I was saying, i.e. that the punishment must fit the crime. Those who argue that women who do stupid things are asking to be raped (i.e. deserve it), are, in my opinion, saying that rape is the punishment for being stupid. I think that's an unfair punishment.

I know that you are not saying that a stupid woman deserves rape. I said I knew you weren't saying that in the post you're objecting to. Now I'm asking you to acknowledge that there are people in the world who do think a woman's poor judgment is a total or partial justification for rape. Read the thread if you want examples.

All it would achieve is to limit the freedoms of women, and I can't help thinking that's the (unconscious) motive behind it.

You are more optimistic than I am. "Unconscious" gives men too much credit.

Perhaps being a man, I understand better just how "tempting" this way of thinking can be. It's easy to pressure... and pressure... and pressure for sex, until a woman relents, which is not the same as wanting to have sex.

I am guilty of pressuring women in this way... Lying next to my partner in bed, kissing and touching and making it obvious that I am not planning on letting her sleep, while it is equally obvious this is the only thing she wants to do.

I like to console myself that this is not quite the same as the openly coercive behavior that I have identified as rape... but as far as the male psychology goes, it is a fine line. As I have examined myself over the years, I have come to understand that the unstated intent of this behavior is to get my partner to have sex with me whether she wants to or not.

I know, implicitly, that I would never violently rape a woman. I am not as convinced that I "could never" become coercive... In fact, I worry that the "demanding" way in which men behave with respect to sex bleeds into coercion in a rather vague way: it's hard to tell when you've crossed that line.

Thus, I have been trying to re-train myself not to approach that line. The key has been learning to "catch" myself when I am pressuring my partner to have sex; to remind myself that sex is always better when she wants to do it than when she just lets me have what I "want." (I always realized, too late, that I never got what I wanted anyway, which was for her to reciprocate my passion for her.)

To return to my point, my intention (to pressure her) was never "unconscious." It was never quite "explicit" either, but it fluttered close enough to the surface for me to eventually recognize it and, because I love my partner, begin to deal with it. I believe that the pressuring and coercive behavior of most men, as well as their "permissive" and apologetic attitudes toward rape are similarly close to the surface: very little honest self-reflection should be necessary to identify them, but the "rewards" for men, both sexually and in terms of their own self-image, encourage denial.

When I have been able to engage my students in open discussions about sexuality, I find that many more men are able to admit similar experiences. I sincerely hope that they take these "confessionals" home with them and use them as the basis for changing their own sexual behavior.

If we change ourselves enough, perhaps we can be better models for the next generation. Perhaps they will have less work to do on themselves.

While I proudly call myself a feminist, I also refer to myself as a "recovering sexist," not a "non-sexist" man. I do not think our current world is capable of producing a man who is completely free of sexist assumptions and behaviors. To believe oneself to have achieved this is to claim that one need no longer be vigilant against the psychological remnants of sexism, an attitude which I think is irresponsible for even the best among us (and I am far from the best).

Our entire culture is "recovering sexist."

While I proudly call myself a feminist, I also refer to myself as a "recovering sexist," not a "non-sexist" man. I do not think our current world is capable of producing a man who is completely free of sexist assumptions and behaviors. To believe oneself to have achieved this is to claim that one need no longer be vigilant against the psychological remnants of sexism, an attitude which I think is irresponsible for even the best among us (and I am far from the best).

Our entire culture is "recovering sexist."

I do not think our current world is capable of producing a non-sexist woman either, then.

I do not think our current world is capable of producing a non-sexist woman either, then.

Possibly not. But I think the sexist behavior of men is, by and large, more troubling, more dangerous, and more prone to perpetuate itself than are the sexist assumptions and behaviors of women. That, and the fact that I am a man, makes me more concerned with weeding out the sexism in men than in women.

if a woman wants to wander around her home wearing nothing but boxer shorts, more power to her then. but to have a woman go out on the town wearing nothing but boxershorts...

and notice that in your post, only "MEN" who call women sluts are sick perverts. I've heard more women calling each other sluts than men.

But is it usually women who end in court accused of rape? Not as far as I'm aware, though admittedly this may be down to fear of reporting.

Men have gone out on sunny days wearing nothing but shorts. I even saw a guy in the rain once in just shorts - does that mean this guy was a slut? If not, then if you say a woman who goes out wearing revealing clothes is a slut, you are a hypocrit, plain and simple.

I may have used the word "men", but I actually meant anyone who uses the words "slut" in a non-joking manner (when I've heard women use it for other women, it's often been jokingly and usually about friends) is trying to find a way to view women as objects so they can feel better about causing long-lasting pain and trauma (by raping them for example) to a woman. After all, how can a derogatory word such as this be seen as anything less than trying to turn a woman into an object for sick reasons?

And Anarchyel, pressuring is just as bad. If a woman doesn't want to do something sexual, there is no possible justification for forcing them to. You need to contact either http://www.rapecrisis.co.uk or http://www.rainn.org Oh yeh and DEFINITELY this: http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/myths.html

P.S. JuNii, as for "Dick Teasers", even if a person is teasing you, that doesn't mean they want to do anything more. This should be obvious. I worked in a nightclub once where the aim of the women who worked there was nothing more than to TEASE the male customers (this was made obvious) - anyone who even touched a girl got booted out, sometimes covered in their own blood.

You are more optimistic than I am. "Unconscious" gives men too much credit.

Perhaps being a man, I understand better just how "tempting" this way of thinking can be. It's easy to pressure... and pressure... and pressure for sex, until a woman relents, which is not the same as wanting to have sex.

I am guilty of pressuring women in this way... Lying next to my partner in bed, kissing and touching and making it obvious that I am not planning on letting her sleep, while it is equally obvious this is the only thing she wants to do.

I like to console myself that this is not quite the same as the openly coercive behavior that I have identified as rape... but as far as the male psychology goes, it is a fine line. As I have examined myself over the years, I have come to understand that the unstated intent of this behavior is to get my partner to have sex with me whether she wants to or not.

I know, implicitly, that I would never violently rape a woman. I am not as convinced that I "could never" become coercive... In fact, I worry that the "demanding" way in which men behave with respect to sex bleeds into coercion in a rather vague way: it's hard to tell when you've crossed that line.

Thus, I have been trying to re-train myself not to approach that line. The key has been learning to "catch" myself when I am pressuring my partner to have sex; to remind myself that sex is always better when she wants to do it than when she just lets me have what I "want." (I always realized, too late, that I never got what I wanted anyway, which was for her to reciprocate my passion for her.)

To return to my point, my intention (to pressure her) was never "unconscious." It was never quite "explicit" either, but it fluttered close enough to the surface for me to eventually recognize it and, because I love my partner, begin to deal with it. I believe that the pressuring and coercive behavior of most men, as well as their "permissive" and apologetic attitudes toward rape are similarly close to the surface: very little honest self-reflection should be necessary to identify them, but the "rewards" for men, both sexually and in terms of their own self-image, encourage denial.

When I have been able to engage my students in open discussions about sexuality, I find that many more men are able to admit similar experiences. I sincerely hope that they take these "confessionals" home with them and use them as the basis for changing their own sexual behavior.

If we change ourselves enough, perhaps we can be better models for the next generation. Perhaps they will have less work to do on themselves.

While I proudly call myself a feminist, I also refer to myself as a "recovering sexist," not a "non-sexist" man. I do not think our current world is capable of producing a man who is completely free of sexist assumptions and behaviors. To believe oneself to have achieved this is to claim that one need no longer be vigilant against the psychological remnants of sexism, an attitude which I think is irresponsible for even the best among us (and I am far from the best).

Our entire culture is "recovering sexist."
This is a remarkably honest revelation. Thank you. I learned something new about men from your sharing of your experience.

I think that self-awareness is the key to the entire problem that this thread is about. The thread posits a social issue, but I think this social issue is rooted in individual minds and choices. The solution is not to reorganize society, but to encourage both men and women to question and examine their own ways of thinking.

Sex is an extremely complicated area of the human mind. It combines survival instinct with personal pleasure with need for companionship with interpersonal dynamics with each person's own sense of self. There are definite wrong ways to do it -- as when someone gets hurt -- but there is no universally right way to go about it. There will be always be tension and doubt. There will always be decisions that a person has to make -- "If I keep pressuring her will she get hurt, or will she leave me?" "Do I feel like giving him what he wants even though I'm not really in the mood?" "If she says no, will my friends say I'm not man enough to get her?" "If I say yes to this man now, will other people attack my reputation?" And so on. On the surface, it seems like such thoughts undermine relationships, but the fact is they are unavoidable. It's all part of sorting out all the different pressures and priorities that are attached to sex decisions.

What makes this a social issue, in my opinion, is that there is in many places a long history of hierarchical social privilege -- a pecking order in which this or that group is declared superior to some other and is allowed to push that group around to exercise their supposed superiority. It can be rich over poor, white over black, earlier immigrant over later immigrant, and in many cases it is male over female. I firmly believe that the widespread apologetics for rape-excuses, even among men who honestly would never allow themselves to coerce or bully a woman or among women who would honestly never give in coercion themselves, is part of that social tradition of heirarchy. This is what I meant when I said (so long ago) that underlying this attitude is the attitude that a woman should not say no to a man. This cultural pattern is the part that I believe is often unconscious, and it will be very difficult to overcome it.

Equally hard to overcome may be an additional driving energy to this rape-excuse way of thinking -- fear of the crime itself. I think there's a psychological need to deny this crime's existence because it is horrible to think about. Blaming the victim actually is a way to make the aggressor seem weaker. I actually think this is why so many women fall into the rape-excuse thought-pattern. If the woman is responsible for provoking it, then maybe these women feel they have the power to prevent it by not doing provoking things. They are wrong, of course, because it is not provoked by any action of theirs.

This whole problem of why people think this way is as complicated and confusing as sexual relationships themselves.