NationStates Jolt Archive

This is not an attack on any countries military... but this is what is happening in Iraq...

Armour piercing bullets are tipped with uranium. Should these rounds miss, they leave small piles uranium lying around. Do you have a view on how they should be used or cleaned up?

They use depleted uranium so there is no radiation.

They use depleted uranium so there is no radiation.
Meh, close enough.

There is radiation, it's just not particularly intense. The products are basically alpha emitters which out side of the body isn't anything worth worrying about. But the problem is, the shells don't miss. Not now days. They're pyrophoric. As the penetrator passes through the armor the pressure and friction heat up the material, and the second part of what makes them so deadly is the propensity of the material to self sharpen. Which causes it to spall as it passes into the crew compartment incinerating everything, including fuel and ammo, resulting in secondary explosions which inturn create a lot of depleted uranium powder and spread it around. And it's the powder that's not so happy. It gets into an oganism's body where there's not much in the way of defense from the, addmittedly weak, radiation. And worse yet, it's a heavy metal and the body isn't terribly good at dealing with things that have f-orbitals.

That said, the moderate increased risk of mortality from exposure is dwarfed by poverty, access to clean water, malaria, and social strife that are typical of so many warzones. Scooping up all the dirt and depositing it somewhere is a waste of time, resources and money.

Who cares?

DU ammo is a weapon of the past. Deep Kimichi can dig out a whole list of weapons that are currently being tested that will soon be made availabile to the military. They're nasty, but have no lingering side effects.

They use depleted uranium so there is no radiation.
What are you talking about?
"As the concentration of uranium in depleted uranium is much higher than in its natural state, depleted uranium is more radioactive than natural uranium."
http://www.emro.who.int/Publications/emhj/0802_3/depleted.htm

"British soldiers returning from the Gulf will be offered urine tests for depleted uranium, after the Royal Society rejected defence secretary Geoff Hoon’s assurances that depleted uranium posed no risk."
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7396/952/b

Tungsten-tipped ammunition performs with virtually the same characteristics, yet AFAIK does not leave as much toxic, possibly radioactive (apparently they use the leftovers of enrichment processes, meaning there are elements of Plutonium and enriched Uranium in there sometimes), crap around the place.
Uranium is dangerous, and particularly in urban environments kids, scrap collectors and others will be in contact with it.

If people feel the need to use it, I guess there is no law against it. I believe it's not worth the minute improvement, particularly if you consider that the enemy fought today isn't exactly a threat to modern equipment anyways.
But if you use it, do clean it up afterwards. We don't know what will happen, apparently there are reports of more birth defects with Gulf War Veterans and Iraqi civilians - and we know how for example "Agent Orange" turned out 40 years on. I'm pretty sure they assured us that it was safe then too.

They worked fine in Starcraft, I see no need to complain.

The problem is not the radioactivity of depleted uranium (which is quite low), it is the toxicity of uranium itself. Uranium is a chemically toxic heavy metal like mercury, antimony, or lead. We still have problems with contamination of these metals in our environment from earlier years even though we have stricter regulations concerning their disposal.

There is radiation, it's just not particularly intense. The products are basically alpha emitters which out side of the body isn't anything worth worrying about. But the problem is, the shells don't miss. Not now days. They're pyrophoric. As the penetrator passes through the armor the pressure and friction heat up the material, and the second part of what makes them so deadly is the propensity of the material to self sharpen. Which causes it to spall as it passes into the crew compartment incinerating everything, including fuel and ammo, resulting in secondary explosions which inturn create a lot of depleted uranium powder and spread it around. And it's the powder that's not so happy. It gets into an oganism's body where there's not much in the way of defense from the, addmittedly weak, radiation. And worse yet, it's a heavy metal and the body isn't terribly good at dealing with things that have f-orbitals.

That said, the moderate increased risk of mortality from exposure is dwarfed by poverty, access to clean water, malaria, and social strife that are typical of so many warzones. Scooping up all the dirt and depositing it somewhere is a waste of time, resources and money.

Duh! It is a weapon designed to kill the enemy and from what you are saying it sounds like a pretty good one. So, the point is?

Here is the alternative, tungsten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten).
There seems to be no bad side effects from using it (although I'm not big in Chemistry).

http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ammunition/rheinmetall/

Duh! It is a weapon designed to kill the enemy and from what you are saying it sounds like a pretty good one. So, the point is?
The enemy are insurgents, not the general masses of people of Iraq. So the point is that it shouldn't be used.

Here is the alternative, tungsten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten).
There seems to be no bad side effects from using it (although I'm not big in Chemistry).

http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ammunition/rheinmetall/

The major downside is that Uranium sounds WAY cooler than Tungsten.

Here is the alternative, tungsten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten).
There seems to be no bad side effects from using it (although I'm not big in Chemistry).

http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ammunition/rheinmetall/


Tungsten is a heavy metal and is very bad for you if ingested.

Here is the alternative, tungsten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten).
There seems to be no bad side effects from using it (although I'm not big in Chemistry).

http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ammunition/rheinmetall/

Yes, but, for a government like the US, tungsten is alot more expsensive that DU. Not only is it something that we don't have scads of lying around, but one of the major benefits of DU is it's weight. A DU round is alot smaller than a lead round of the same weight, which means you can pack more powder behind it.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while Uranium (whichever the correct Isotype is) itself is quite "cool" in terms of radiation, it breaks down into very "hot" products. So it releases more dangerous radiation (If memory serves me correctly from AP Environmental Science).

If that Uranium finds it's way into someone's body, the result could be some very nasty mutations.

Tungsten is a heavy metal and is very bad for you if ingested.
Well, true. As I said, I'm not big on Chemistry...the question is whether it is as toxic as Uranium.

Yes, but, for a government like the US, tungsten is alot more expsensive that DU.
You reckon? Most Western armies use tungsten, even though they have the capabilities to produce DU. It's just a matter of getting the facilities up and running.

Not only is it something that we don't have scads of lying around, but one of the major benefits of DU is it's weight. A DU round is alot smaller than a lead round of the same weight, which means you can pack more powder behind it.
Tungsten - Atomic Weight: 183.84 Amu
Uranium - Atomic Weight: 238.0289 Amu
It's not quite as good, but obviously good enough considering that it is already in use. And as I said, that kind of thing hardly matters if you attack "rogue states" with T-72s.

its depleted uranium so who the fuck cares .

Its not much of a problem, and it won't last much longer either. DU is only cheap as a by-product of weaponizing Uranium, back in the cold war America had plenty stockpiling because we kept building more nukes, which necesarilly means more weaponized uranium which causes more DU. Now that we don't make nukes anymore the supply will dwindle and we'll go back to Tungsten which is actually both cheaper (Except when DU is a by-product of weaponizing Uranium) and denser than DU.

its depleted uranium so who the fuck cares .
This is what the World Health Organisation (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/) said in 2003.
DU contamination with Plutonium (http://www.firethistime.org/plutoniumcontamination.htm)
Confirmed by UNEP (http://www.unep.org/Documents.Multilingual/Default.asp?DocumentID=192&ArticleID=2773&l=en)

What are you talking about?
"As the concentration of uranium in depleted uranium is much higher than in its natural state, depleted uranium is more radioactive than natural uranium."
http://www.emro.who.int/Publications/emhj/0802_3/depleted.htm

"British soldiers returning from the Gulf will be offered urine tests for depleted uranium, after the Royal Society rejected defence secretary Geoff Hoon’s assurances that depleted uranium posed no risk."
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7396/952/b

ROTFLMAOTIPMP!!!!!!

In it's natural state, uranium puts out less radiation then your dental work.

In it's natural state, it's a green freaking rock.

It's actually amazingthat we discovered it had any useful properties at all.

Another example where facts taken out of context are useless.

The enemy are insurgents, not the general masses of people of Iraq. So the point is that it shouldn't be used.

What do you want us to use?

Harsh Language?

Or would that be torture?

What do you want us to use?
Read the thread.
If you really needed AP Ammunition, use Tungsten or something similar, less toxic and less likely to be contaminated with dangerous radioactive materials.
Otherwise, just stick to normal ammunition, you don't need to squash a fly with a laser guided bomb if a newspaper suffices.

http://web.ead.anl.gov/uranium/uses/index.cfm
http://web.ead.anl.gov/uranium/faq/index.cfm
http://www.pdhealth.mil/downloads/Service_Members_Info_080604.pdf
http://911review.org/Wiki/DepletedUranium.shtml

Again more bullshit pilled high and deep .
There's much more dangerouse shit left over on a battlefield than DP . but because it has URANIUM in the name the fucking moron value for propaganda is sky high . Hence you get "OMG we are all gonna die " and other assorted chicken little bullshit .

There's much more dangerouse shit left over on a battlefield than DP.
Which also needs to be cleaned up.

but because it has URANIUM in the name the fucking moron value for propaganda is sky high . Hence you get "OMG we are all gonna die " and other assorted chicken little bullshit .
I'm not so much worried about radiation as I am about toxicity. Uranium is dangerous, radioactivity or not. Leaving it on the ground in urban areas is a danger to the people who live there.
Furthermore we know how DU is won: They are the leftovers of the enrichment process. It is statistically impossible to exclude that some enriched materials are left in there, and that has been found by a number of people and admitted (http://www.balkanpeace.org/hed/archive/jan01/hed2474.shtml) by the US Government.

I suppose you don't have an issue if a company was to spill DU all over your town, into your waterways and into your farmland either.

Err...

DU armor piercing ammo is used primarily by tanks and aircraft like the A-10. If you know military tactics you'll know these weapons are also used against heavy weapons like tanks. This problem is really negligible in Iraq where what few tank engagements there were occurred in the middle of nowhere, and even then the number of rounds expended is very small.

Tungsten is not a viable alternative right now. DU's advantage is not its density but its adiabatic properties, that is, DU is self sharpening. Tungsten will bend outwards (mushroom) reducing its penetration. As of now the only other self-sharpening material is 'amorphous tungsten', which has not yet been produced physically.

As a note, if I lived in an area with a potential tank-vs-tank battle I would get the f*ck out of there and never come back.

Do some simple cost-benefit analysis and it is obvious should just leave them there. The only reason you would say otherwise is because "uranium...bad" has been driven into your minds with propoganda tipped drills. Just think with reason not reaction.

I suppose you don't have an issue if a company was to spill DU all over your town, into your waterways and into your farmland either.

The particles are heavy so they would sink right away. They could dump some of that in my fields.

Tungsten is not a viable alternative right now. DU's advantage is not its density but its adiabatic properties, that is, DU is self sharpening. Tungsten will bend outwards (mushroom) reducing its penetration. As of now the only other self-sharpening material is 'amorphous tungsten', which has not yet been produced physically.
Then why is it that many Western armies prefer Tungsten to DU if it is so crucially inferior?

The particles are heavy so they would sink right away. They could dump some of that in my fields.
Remember that the next time something like this (http://www.minesandcommunities.org/Action/press312.htm) happens.

It is statistically impossible to exclude that some enriched materials are left in there, and that has been found by a number of people and admitted (http://www.balkanpeace.org/hed/archive/jan01/hed2474.shtml) by the US Government..

What the government admitted in your link was:

"In a January 2000 letter to the activist Military Toxics Project, the U.S. Department of Energy said it believed minute quantities of plutonium might be contained in U.S. stocks of depleted uranium, but in amounts too low to pose risk."

What the government admitted in your link was:

"In a January 2000 letter to the activist Military Toxics Project, the U.S. Department of Energy said it believed minute quantities of plutonium might be contained in U.S. stocks of depleted uranium, but in amounts too low to pose risk."
Indeed.
But I never claimed anything more than that they admitted that this is essentially nuclear waste material, and that there is a risk of seriously dangerous stuff being in there.

They use depleted uranium so there is no radiation.

Depleted Uranium has small amounts of radiation in case you weren't aware, which obviously you aren't.

Q. What is depleted uranium?

A. Depleted uranium is what is left over when most of the highly radioactive types (isotopes) of uranium are removed for use as nuclear fuel or nuclear weapons. The depleted uranium used in armor-piercing munitions and in enhanced armor protection for some Abrams tanks is also used in civilian industry, primarily for stabilizers in airplanes and boats.

Q. What makes depleted uranium a potential hazard?

A. Depleted uranium is a heavy metal that is also slightly radioactive. Heavy metals (uranium, lead, tungsten, etc.) have chemical toxicity properties that, in high doses, can cause adverse health effects. Depleted uranium that remains outside the body can not harm you.

Err...

DU armor piercing ammo is used primarily by tanks and aircraft like the A-10. If you know military tactics you'll know these weapons are also used against heavy weapons like tanks. This problem is really negligible in Iraq where what few tank engagements there were occurred in the middle of nowhere, and even then the number of rounds expended is very small.

Tungsten is not a viable alternative right now. DU's advantage is not its density but its adiabatic properties, that is, DU is self sharpening. Tungsten will bend outwards (mushroom) reducing its penetration. As of now the only other self-sharpening material is 'amorphous tungsten', which has not yet been produced physically.

As a note, if I lived in an area with a potential tank-vs-tank battle I would get the f*ck out of there and never come back.
When Tungsten is discussed as an alternative to DU, it's usually in the context of a nano-crystaline form. Ie extremely small grains. In this form, Tungsten too is sellf-sharpening, and would spall incinerating the target. This is attractive for a number of reasons, one of which is enviromental. (However, I would personally expect that it would be later revealed that self-sharpening Tungsten would be more of a hazzard than DU, as it's small grain sizes would cause mesotheliomas in people who inhaled enough of the dust). But in the end, it's a heavy metal. That's never good for your organic chemistry. But DU rounds are used a lot, M-61 20mm cannons might use them, A-10's certainly do, and tanks of course against armored targets, but the first two use those in close air support and in urban areas. But there is something to be said for having enough sense to avoid living in a shithole where a war might be coming through.

As I wrote before, there are far more significant pressures that affect mortality than small quantities of DU powder being inhaled or ingested. But they're no where near as sexy, so it's ok if people die from them.

But there is something to be said for having enough sense to avoid living in a shithole where a war might be coming through.
That is either the most senseless thing I have ever heard anyone say, or I misunderstood you.
Pick one.

Tungsten, at least in alloy form, causing tumours in rats:
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/press/011505.html

Vaporised DU or Tungsten aren't exactly good for the body when ingested.

So dont ingest them when they are vaporised . And stay out of places where it may happen .

When my air cadet squadron went hiking on Dartmoor, we took a look at one of the British Army's anti-tank missile ranges. Literally a couple of sandbags a short distance away from a big iron plate. Behind the plate and embedded within it we found slugs of what our commander told us was depleted uranium. There were no warning signs, no fences and our commanders sole injunction was not to put it in your pockets if you wanted children.

As far as I'm concerned, if curious fifteen year olds, random hikers and sheep are allowed around the stuff without complaint in this safety conscious country, there sure as hell ain't much of a concern beyond it.

So dont ingest them when they are vaporised . And stay out of places where it may happen .

It leaves dust. Dust settles on the ground. Wind carries dust and it is breathed in without your knowledge.

U-238, as well as U-235 and U-234, the latter two which exist in small quantities within DU, emit alpha particles. These are not dangerous outside of the body, because they are unable to penetrate past a sheet of paper. However, they emit vastly more radioactive energy than Beta or Gamma particles, and are incredibly dangerous if they enter the body in some way, for example, by settling in the lungs after breathing the dust. The long half-life of U-238 makes it less radioactive than some substances such as plutonium. However, the decay products of U-238, while they exist only in tiny amounts, are extremely radioactive.

For an adult, the small concentration is unlikely to make much difference. For a small child, however, the inability of the body to expel the uranium means that it could potentially sit in their lungs for a lifetime, or in the blood system of an unborn infant. Coupled with the lower radiation resistance of children (as a result of their lower body mass), as well as the chemical toxicity of the material, it is likely to cause latent effects visible in several years time.

It leaves dust. Dust settles on the ground. Wind carries dust and it is breathed in without your knowledge.

U-238, as well as U-235 and U-234, the latter two which exist in small quantities within DU, emit alpha particles. These are not dangerous outside of the body, because they are unable to penetrate past a sheet of paper. However, they emit vastly more radioactive energy than Beta or Gamma particles, and are incredibly dangerous if they enter the body in some way, for example, by settling in the lungs after breathing the dust. The long half-life of U-238 makes it less radioactive than some substances such as plutonium. However, the decay products of U-238, while they exist only in tiny amounts, are extremely radioactive.

For an adult, the small concentration is unlikely to make much difference. For a small child, however, the inability of the body to expel the uranium means that it could potentially sit in their lungs for a lifetime, or in the blood system of an unborn infant. Coupled with the lower radiation resistance of children (as a result of their lower body mass), as well as the chemical toxicity of the material, it is likely to cause latent effects visible in several years time.

So ? There is more radiation on a farm field that has been fertilized than a battlefield that has been pulverized . You can go dig a foundation and get MORE rads than at a target range with projectiles of DP laying about and buried ...DEPLETED URANIUM PROJECTILES is the issue...or non issueas it may be .

Read about it ..learn something new .

http://web.ead.anl.gov/uranium/uses/index.cfm
http://web.ead.anl.gov/uranium/faq/index.cfm
http://www.pdhealth.mil/downloads/Se...nfo_080604.pdf
http://911review.org/Wiki/DepletedUranium.shtml

Duh! It is a weapon designed to kill the enemy and from what you are saying it sounds like a pretty good one. So, the point is?

The point is that its like a landmine. Long after the war is over, it will still be around, still causing whatever damage it can do. Imagine if your hometown had heavy metal dust floating around from a war 20 years ago. You ain't fighting anymore, but you're still taking (or causing) casualties.

So ? There is more radiation on a farm field that has been fertilized than a battlefield that has been pulverized.

Source?

You can go dig a foundation and get MORE rads than at a target range with projectiles of DP laying about and buried ...DEPLETED URANIUM PROJECTILES is the issue...or non issueas it may be .

If you don't inhale or ingest it, yes, because Depleted Uranium is an Alpha-particle emitter.

http://web.ead.anl.gov/uranium/uses/index.cfm
http://web.ead.anl.gov/uranium/faq/index.cfm
http://www.pdhealth.mil/downloads/Se...nfo_080604.pdf
http://911review.org/Wiki/DepletedUranium.shtml

The first page tells of beneficial uses of DU. I never stated there weren't any.

The second is about Uranium Hexaflouride. That isn't what we're talking about here. What relates to DU on that page isn't really relevant, though what does seems to vindicate my argument.

The third gives me a timeout error...

And the fourth links to a lot of anti-DU websites.

There is radiation, it's just not particularly intense. The products are basically alpha emitters which out side of the body isn't anything worth worrying about. But the problem is, the shells don't miss. Not now days. They're pyrophoric. As the penetrator passes through the armor the pressure and friction heat up the material, and the second part of what makes them so deadly is the propensity of the material to self sharpen. Which causes it to spall as it passes into the crew compartment incinerating everything, including fuel and ammo, resulting in secondary explosions which inturn create a lot of depleted uranium powder and spread it around. And it's the powder that's not so happy. It gets into an oganism's body where there's not much in the way of defense from the, addmittedly weak, radiation. And worse yet, it's a heavy metal and the body isn't terribly good at dealing with things that have f-orbitals.

That said, the moderate increased risk of mortality from exposure is dwarfed by poverty, access to clean water, malaria, and social strife that are typical of so many warzones. Scooping up all the dirt and depositing it somewhere is a waste of time, resources and money.
Most of the Uranium that ends up in food will be passed through the body without being absorbed. It's not really that big of a threat. Living near granite or using a gas powered lantern with thorium-based mantles will expose you to more radiation, and since it doesn't absorb well through the intestines, it's not a very dangerous heavy metal.

Here is the alternative, tungsten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten).
There seems to be no bad side effects from using it (although I'm not big in Chemistry).

http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ammunition/rheinmetall/
Tungsten isn't as cheap as DU. DU is only used AFAIK for military purposes. Tungsten, however, is already fairly rare, and is in higher demand than DU for industrial use. Tungsten is used in steel alloys, in lightbulbs, and many other consumer and industrial materials. Limited supply and increased demand from the military would make the price of tungsten go through the roof.

Its not much of a problem, and it won't last much longer either. DU is only cheap as a by-product of weaponizing Uranium, back in the cold war America had plenty stockpiling because we kept building more nukes, which necesarilly means more weaponized uranium which causes more DU. Now that we don't make nukes anymore the supply will dwindle and we'll go back to Tungsten which is actually both cheaper (Except when DU is a by-product of weaponizing Uranium) and denser than DU.
Tungsten is not denser than DU. Also DU is produced in enriching uranium for energy production. It's not just a nuclear weapons program byproduct.

Surprised any Tungsten is still around in Europe - that was THE anti tank round for both the Germans and Russians during WWII.
I will support the use of munitions that assist my countries troops winning the battles. As for DU munitions, excellent in AT warfare...there are no tanks on the other side in Iraq anymore, so a few APFSDS in the racks for emergencies is all an M1 needs right now, the rest HESH, HE, and maybe HEAT for bunkers. With the thermobaric warhead SMAW the Marines are using now on bunkers, maybe we wont need that anymore, either.
besides, unless we have another armor breakthrough, as a few RPG hits in Iraq suggest we need to happen, the era of the tank is coming to a close.

When Tungsten is discussed as an alternative to DU, it's usually in the context of a nano-crystaline form. Ie extremely small grains. In this form, Tungsten too is sellf-sharpening, and would spall incinerating the target. This is attractive for a number of reasons, one of which is enviromental. (However, I would personally expect that it would be later revealed that self-sharpening Tungsten would be more of a hazzard than DU, as it's small grain sizes would cause mesotheliomas in people who inhaled enough of the dust). But in the end, it's a heavy metal. That's never good for your organic chemistry. But DU rounds are used a lot, M-61 20mm cannons might use them, A-10's certainly do, and tanks of course against armored targets, but the first two use those in close air support and in urban areas. But there is something to be said for having enough sense to avoidspall
living in a shithole where a war might be coming through.

As I wrote before, there are far more significant pressures that affect mortality than small quantities of DU powder being inhaled or ingested. But they're no where near as sexy, so it's ok if people die from them.spall ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spôl)
n.
A chip, fragment, or flake from a piece of stone or ore.

v. spalled, spall·ing, spalls
v. tr.
To break up into chips or fragments.

v. intr.
To chip or crumble.

Spalling is just the process of the inner layer of the trank's armor fragmenting and the fragments flying around the tank like shrapnel from a bomb. It cuts up the crew. Uranium incinerates the crew because it's pyrophoric, not because a hard impact will cause the armor inside the tank to spall.

To my knowledge tungsten is not pyrophoric.

When my air cadet squadron went hiking on Dartmoor, we took a look at one of the British Army's anti-tank missile ranges. Literally a couple of sandbags a short distance away from a big iron plate. Behind the plate and embedded within it we found slugs of what our commander told us was depleted uranium. There were no warning signs, no fences and our commanders sole injunction was not to put it in your pockets if you wanted children.

As far as I'm concerned, if curious fifteen year olds, random hikers and sheep are allowed around the stuff without complaint in this safety conscious country, there sure as hell ain't much of a concern beyond it.
Um, your commander doesn't know what he's talking about. DU is not very radioactive. It's primarily an alpha emiter. Alpha particles can be stopped by a piece of paper. A chunk of DU in your pocket is no threat to your balls.

URANIUM DECAY CHAIN -- Main Branch
Read from left to right. Arrows indicate decay.

Uranium-238 ==>
(half-life: 4.46 billion years)
alpha decay Thorium-234 ==>
(half-life: 24.1 days)
beta decay Protactinium-234m ==>
(half-life: 1.17 minutes)
beta decay
Uranium-234 ==>
(half-life: 245,000 years)
alpha decay Thorium-230 ==>
(half-life: 75,400 years)
alpha decay Radium-226 ==>
(half-life: 1,600 years)
alpha decay
Radon-222 ==>
(half-life: 3.82 days)
alpha decay Polonium-218 ==>
(half-life: 3.11 minutes)
alpha decay Lead-214 ==>
(half-life: 26.8 minutes)
beta decay
Bismuth-214 ==>
(half-life: 19.9 minutes)
beta decay Polonium-214 ==>
(half-life: 163 microseconds)
alpha decay Lead-210 ==>
(half-life: 22.3 years)
beta decay
Bismuth-210 ==>
(half-life: 5.01 days)
beta decay Polonium-210 ==>
(half-life: 138 days)
alpha decay Lead-206
(stable)

Most of the Uranium that ends up in food will be passed through the body without being absorbed. It's not really that big of a threat. Living near granite or using a gas powered lantern with thorium-based mantles will expose you to more radiation, and since it doesn't absorb well through the intestines, it's not a very dangerous heavy metal.
I refer you to the case of Oranage Fiestawear. Heavy metals are dangerous because we are not lithovores and our organic chemistry relies on the hosts' good judgement as opposed to it's own abilities.

As to your second post, the spalling is a result of Uraniums particular characteristics and is what goes a long way to making it pyrophoric. I'm quite sure there are a great many articles out there and how it's self-sharpening relates to its tendancy to incinerate the unfortunate occupants of a crew compartment. Any metal powder you heat up with pressure and tremendous friction, in an oxygen atmosphere will be pyrophoric. Get the permission of a parent or parol officer before doing this. But you can get a bunch of nice fine iron pwder and blow it into a candle flame. Surface area is a bitch. Go science. What really seperates DU from the pack are it's self-sharpening characteristics. If you can get those in a more convienent or capable package, that's half the battle.

I refer you to the case of Oranage Fiestawear. Heavy metals are dangerous because we are not lithovores and our organic chemistry relies on the hosts' good judgement as opposed to it's own abilities.

As to your second post, the spalling is a result of Uraniums particular characteristics and is what goes a long way to making it pyrophoric. I'm quite sure there are a great many articles out there and how it's self-sharpening relates to its tendancy to incinerate the unfortunate occupants of a crew compartment. Any metal powder you heat up with pressure and tremendous friction, in an oxygen atmosphere will be pyrophoric. Get the permission of a parent or parol officer before doing this. But you can get a bunch of nice fine iron pwder and blow it into a candle flame. Surface area is a bitch. Go science. What really seperates DU from the pack are it's self-sharpening characteristics. If you can get those in a more convienent or capable package, that's half the battle.
Dude, I've got a bit of a science background. I've also read up about DU anti tank rounds. Spalling is when the inner surface of the armor shatters and flys around the crew compartment shredding flesh.

Definition
A pyrophoric material can spontaneously ignite in air. The word is derived from Greek for "fire-bearing".

Few metals will spontaneously ignite in air, though you can burn fine powders of most metals.

Orange fiestaware is colored and glazed with Uranium salts that may be soluable, but Uranium glaze isn't a byproduct of DU shells. Uranium oxides are. Even though orange fiestaware can't be produced according to the original method anymore, it's illegal, I challenge you to find anyone who's been sickened or killed by it. Lead glazes are much more dangerous.

Then why is it that many Western armies prefer Tungsten to DU if it is so crucially inferior?


Remember that the next time something like this (http://www.minesandcommunities.org/Action/press312.htm) happens.

That's pretty simple. Because of people like you who make it politically impossible. In the United States, the military industrial complex doesn't give a damn about environmentalism or the safety of a few Arabs living in the area they're driving their tanks through. The United States, being the country most likely to fight major tank engagements, prefers that their military be as lethal as possible. There is no possible way you can argue depleted uranium is more economically or militarily effective. I can pile you study upon study of why the US will still retain DU ammunition. And quite frankly, nanocrystalline anything is going to be exceedingly expensive, and even then tungsten can still cause tumors. So either way there's collateral, the question being how much money you want to spend. In the military, your weapon is made by the lowest bidder.

And quite frankly, this entire morality issue is moot. Morality, even legislated morality like the Geneva convention, is violated all the time. According to the Geneva convention its 'illegal' to shoot a .50 caliber machinegun or higher at infantry. Do we do it anyway? Of course we do. DU is merely another 'controversial' weapon like .50 ammunition and Willy Pete that the US will continue to use.

That said, the moderate increased risk of mortality from exposure is dwarfed by poverty, access to clean water, malaria, and social strife that are typical of so many warzones. Scooping up all the dirt and depositing it somewhere is a waste of time, resources and money.

Ah, but the U.S. Army already employs the Engineering Corp to clean up their battles. What they do is dig a ditch, put all the dead enemies in, cover it up, smooth it out with some military earth-movers, and call in the news crews.

If they do that already, then using those same earth-movers to transport irradiated dirt shouldn't really be a problem.

(Source: Iraq War Reader. Go read it, it's a good, unbiased book. Lord knows how valuable/rare those types are now.)

Dude, I've got a bit of a science background. I've also read up about DU anti tank rounds. Spalling is when the inner surface of the armor shatters and flys around the crew compartment shredding flesh.

Definition
A pyrophoric material can spontaneously ignite in air. The word is derived from Greek for "fire-bearing".

Few metals will spontaneously ignite in air, though you can burn fine powders of most metals.

Orange fiestaware is colored and glazed with Uranium salts that may be soluable, but Uranium glaze isn't a byproduct of DU shells. Uranium oxides are. Even though orange fiestaware can't be produced according to the original method anymore, it's illegal, I challenge you to find anyone who's been sickened or killed by it. Lead glazes are much more dangerous.
The DU round and it moves through the armor, it peals back revealing an ever finer point. This tremendous friction (but not so much as less sophisticated alternatives), and pressure, heat the material. Then that pressure is released as it passed out of the armor. The material that was pulled back during the sharpening of the penetrator then leapes off (damn elastic response) as a superheated metal power into an oxygen atmosphere. Boom Pyrophoric, and in those circumstances, nearly any metal would be (fine superheated metal powder). I would suspect the reason this isn't seen in bulk uranium metal is that it probably, like aluminum, forms a protective oxide coating very quickly. Something the flakes and chips, soon to be sparks, of a DU penetrator haven't had the opportunity to do until they pass through some armor. And Dude. I'm sure your BSc from the College of Arts and Sciences trumps my Metallurgical Engineering. But like whatever. Let's bust out the Gibb's free energy and have a differential measuring contest.

The DU round and it moves through the armor, it peals back revealing an ever finer point. This tremendous friction (but not so much as less sophisticated alternatives), and pressure, heat the material. Then that pressure is released as it passed out of the armor. The material that was pulled back during the sharpening of the penetrator then leapes off (damn elastic response) as a superheated metal power into an oxygen atmosphere. Boom Pyrophoric, and in those circumstances, nearly any metal would be (fine superheated metal powder). I would suspect the reason this isn't seen in bulk uranium metal is that it probably, like aluminum, forms a protective oxide coating very quickly. Something the flakes and chips, soon to be sparks, of a DU penetrator haven't had the opportunity to do until they pass through some armor. And Dude. I'm sure your BSc from the College of Arts and Sciences trumps my Metallurgical Engineering. But like whatever. Let's bust out the Gibb's free energy and have a differential measuring contest.
What I was taking issue with was your description of spalling as the mechanism for DU's flamability. When you read about armor penetrating munitions they always use the term spalling to refer to the shrapnel-like action of the inner layer of armor when it's hit hard enough. A projectile need not penetrate through the armor to cause spalling. Yeah, most metals will burn when superheated and exposed to oxygen as a fine powder, but Uranium need not be that hot to do so. I guess I was quibbling about details, but that's the way I am sometimes. BTW, I was studying to be an organic chemist, so your metalurgy degree trumps me on this subject.

This is not an attack on any countries military... but this is what is happening in Iraq...

Armour piercing bullets are tipped with uranium. Should these rounds miss, they leave small piles uranium lying around. Do you have a view on how they should be used or cleaned up?

After the NATO war in Serbia there are a ton of remnants of these weapons in that nation too.

What I was taking issue with was your description of spalling as the mechanism for DU's flamability. When you read about armor penetrating munitions they always use the term spalling to refer to the shrapnel-like action of the inner layer of armor when it's hit hard enough. A projectile need not penetrate through the armor to cause spalling. Yeah, most metals will burn when superheated and exposed to oxygen as a fine powder, but Uranium need not be that hot to do so. I guess I was quibbling about details, but that's the way I am sometimes. BTW, I was studying to be an organic chemist, so your metalurgy degree trumps me on this subject.
Heh. Spalling in the sense is use it, given my background, is any "cutting" action that produces a flake, etc. I consider the shrapnel generated by the round to be not so significant, because self-sharpening (particularly as it relates to nanocrystaline materials) is "sexy" and besides if you're on fire with your lungs seared in a box with explosing ammunition, you're pretty much screwed, anything after that, meh, you can take it.

Did you have to take physical chemistry? That's a bitch everywhere I bet. On one hand it was cool, but on the other hand it was really freaking hard.

While Depleted Uranium Shells are harmful, it's mainly for those who handle them, when people have handled them in the past without protection they ended up with Radiation burns on their hands and sickness and such.

But since they are almost always used in AP rounds for tanks the average civilian wouldn't have their hands on it, unless they stole a shell or broke into a destroyed tank and stole it, in which it's their own damn fault if they get sick.

Depleted Uranium was planned for many other uses some which were really strange. One was a plan to use Uranium filled Ashpault round objects to fill in potholes. Imagine that, a Radioactive Road.

But plain Uranium is mostly harmless, you don't want to drink too much of it or roll around in it but it barely sets of the Geiger Counters.

The "Christian Science Monitor" says this (http://www.refuseandresist.org/article-print.php?aid=789):
US Troops Avoid Wreckage

During the latest Iraq conflict Abrams tanks, Bradley fighting vehicles and A-10 Warthog aircraft, among other military platforms, all fired the DU bullets from desert war zones to the heart of Baghdad. No other armor-piercing round is as effective against enemy tanks. While the Pentagon says there's no risk to Baghdad residents, US soldiers are taking their own precautions in Iraq, and in some cases have handed out warning leaflets and put up signs.

"After we shoot something with DU, we're not supposed to go around it, due to the fact that it could cause cancer," says a sergeant in Baghdad from New York, assigned to a Bradley, who asked not to be further identified.

"We don't know the effects of what it could do," says the sergeant. "If one of our vehicles burnt with a DU round inside, or an ammo truck, we wouldn't go near it, even if it had important documents inside. We play it safe."

Six American vehicles struck with DU "friendly fire" in 1991 were deemed to be too contaminated to take home, and were buried in Saudi Arabia. Of 16 more brought back to a purpose-built facility in South Carolina, six had to be buried in a low-level radioactive waste dump.

Television footage of the war last month showed Iraqi armored vehicles burning as US columns drove by, a common sign of a strike by DU, which burns through armor on impact, and often ignites the ammunition carried by the targeted vehicle.

"We were buttoned up when we drove by that - all our hatches were closed," the US sergeant says. "If we saw anything on fire, we wouldn't stop anywhere near it. We would just keep on driving."

While Depleted Uranium Shells are harmful, it's mainly for those who handle them, when people have handled them in the past without protection they ended up with Radiation burns on their hands and sickness and such.
With depleted Uranium? From just handling? From what I've read there have been veterans from the gulf war walking round literally with lumps of DU shrapnel inside them without any of those effects.