NationStates Jolt Archive


Anti-Religion: Where liberalism and I part-ways

Bolol
19-11-2005, 23:59
Don't take me for some chump just looking for attention, but I am rather tired of irrational sentiments raised against religion.

I consider myself a rather liberal person, but I'm not one of those guys who lives with the philosophy of "you're either with me or you're an idiot". I believe in universal equality, for everyone regardless of race, creed, gender, sexuality, and religion. Yes religion, that includes Christianity (and all sects), Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and anything else that exists under the sun.

By the same light, nor am I one of those intolerant Catholics that runs around screaming "heretic!" at the top of my lungs that so many liberals love to generalize all religious people as and yell in turn "bigot!". I would gladly fight my own Pope with SWITCHBLADES should he pull something that looks like the second Inquestition.

I admit that there have been many, many shortcomings caused by religion over the course of history, but I like to think that we have evolved a bit. And then I see people who claim to be open-minded and enlightened treat those who have a faith as mongrels and fools.

I am no fool. Religion has done great things with my life. I has practically kept me sane over these past few months. And it doesn't help when my own brother mocks my faith. I've tried to be polite and explain to people that those who you see on TV, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Benny Hinn, Priests who rape etc, do not represent religion. That is not religion dammit! But nevertheless it always somehow gets turned around. I try to explain that most religions have peace and brotherhood as their foundations and those who practice intolerance are misguided, but it is nevertheless ignored.

I'm rather tired of being polite. So I am making it clear now: Misguided intolerance is where I part with religion...and gross hatred of religion is where I part with liberalism.

(PS: Like I said with about fanaticism and intolerance...I'm sure not all liberals have a hatred of religion...I just hope I can find some here.)
Drunk commies deleted
20-11-2005, 00:01
I'm not a big fan of religion, but I'm tolerant of it as long as it's not being forced on people.
AlanBstard
20-11-2005, 00:04
You crazy Americans and your funny use of the term "liberalism". Liberalism does imply freedom of religion but not equality. Not that you'll listen to me.
Uber Awesome
20-11-2005, 00:07
You'll be glad to hear that I am going to try to refrain from all religious discussion in future. I would also state that while I still view most religious ideas as flawed, that does not mean that I would consider the religious as fools. Basically, I disagree but I'm going to be nice about it.
5iam
20-11-2005, 00:08
Well, liberals see "separation of Church and State" in pretty much everything.
Bolol
20-11-2005, 00:09
You crazy Americans and your funny use of the term "liberalism". Liberalism does imply freedom of religion but not equality. Not that you'll listen to me.

*twitch*

Okay...smart one...American Liberalism...Are you happy now?!
AlanBstard
20-11-2005, 00:10
*twitch*

Okay...smart one...American Liberalism...Are you happy now?!

not really but never mind.
The Nazz
20-11-2005, 00:11
I really wish people would stop equating the notion of political liberalism with being anti-religion. Yes, there is a small subset of people who self-identify as political liberals who are absolute assholes when it comes to discussing religion. They are not the majority. They're a loud-mouthed minority--sort of like that part of the Republican party that has a disproportionate amount of control right now. The majority of people who self-identify as liberal are either religious themselves or are non-committal on the issue, sort of "don't ask, don't tell, there's room for everyone" agnostic.
Bovine Overlords
20-11-2005, 00:13
I understand where you're coming from. I have friends on either side of that scale. Myself, I don't follow a religion. I just don't beleive. That doesn't give me the right to bash on people for throwing their life into something I think is false, no. In fact I find it admirable in the Christian friends I do have that they can place their trust and love in something like this and manage at the same time not to be another Pat Robinson or Falwell about it. ((and yes AlanBstard, you're right, of course))

Only when it gets to the point that people try to push the moral high ground because I am an atheist, or completely refuse to even look at another puzzle piece in some controversy because it threatens their safe little world, do I get tensed up about it. (( I'm alluding to say, creationism being pushed back into public schools)) Bible study is for church after all, science is for the classroom.
Habardia
20-11-2005, 00:13
You'll be glad to hear that I am going to try to refrain from all religious discussion in future. I would also state that while I still view most religious ideas as flawed, that does not mean that I would consider the religious as fools. Basically, I disagree but I'm going to be nice about it.
I would argue that ALL ideas, religious, political, or otherwise, are flawed. Its just a matter of what fits you the best. But Im not really arguing with you, just giving my view.
Bolol
20-11-2005, 00:16
I really wish people would stop equating the notion of political liberalism with being anti-religion. Yes, there is a small subset of people who self-identify as political liberals who are absolute assholes when it comes to discussing religion. They are not the majority. They're a loud-mouthed minority--sort of like that part of the Republican party that has a disproportionate amount of control right now. The majority of people who self-identify as liberal are either religious themselves or are non-committal on the issue, sort of "don't ask, don't tell, there's room for everyone" agnostic.

And that is what I tried to express in my last statement of the original post. Nevertheless I was simply standing up for what I believed in.

I know that not all liberals feel this way, and I'm truly sorry if I in any way conveyed that. Least of all, I'd not want to offend a fellow LGBT Army soldier!
Bovine Overlords
20-11-2005, 00:16
They are not the majority. They're a loud-mouthed minority--sort of like that part of the Republican party that has a disproportionate amount of control right now.

hugely disproportionate.

nice post
The Nazz
20-11-2005, 00:20
And that is what I tried to express in my last statement of the original post. Nevertheless I was simply standing up for what I believed in.

I know that not all liberals feel this way, and I'm truly sorry if I in any way conveyed that. Least of all, I'd not want to offend a fellow LGBT Army soldier!
No offense taken. I just keep hearing this all over the place, especially from right-wingers who keep arguing that the political left is hostile to religion. We're not. What we aren't is hostile to atheists, agnostics, or people of non-christian faiths--to some knuckle-headed fundamentalists, that means we're hostile to religion. Well, if being welcoming to atheists means I'm hostile to them, then that's their problem. I'd rather expand the group than shrink it.
Ashmoria
20-11-2005, 00:21
it seems as me as silly to link liberalism with hatred of relgion as it is to link conservatism with hatred of all religions that arent mainstream.

after all, think of all those liberals who are into new-age religions. dont they count?
Eichen
20-11-2005, 00:23
You crazy Americans and your funny use of the term "liberalism". Liberalism does imply freedom of religion but not equality. Not that you'll listen to me.
Duh Alan. We know this, that's why we use the words "classical liberal" or "libertarian" to denote what you're referring to. The left hijacked the term a long time ago, hoping to suck a bit of genius from it (like a parasite).
It didn't work. Today, the word leaves a nasty taste in most American's mouth, and is considered a bit of a slur... except by some of the radical nutters here on NS, of course. So I'm happy with the term libertarian for now.
Bolol
20-11-2005, 00:24
No offense taken. I just keep hearing this all over the place, especially from right-wingers who keep arguing that the political left is hostile to religion. We're not. What we aren't is hostile to atheists, agnostics, or people of non-christian faiths--to some knuckle-headed fundamentalists, that means we're hostile to religion. Well, if being welcoming to atheists means I'm hostile to them, then that's their problem. I'd rather expand the group than shrink it.

If there is anything I ain't...then it's right-wing.

I'd vote for Collin Powell or John McCain...but that's only because the rest of the political spectrum is nothing but fucktards. [/self-hijack]
The Nazz
20-11-2005, 00:24
it seems as me as silly to link liberalism with hatred of relgion as it is to link conservatism with hatred of all religions that arent mainstream.

after all, think of all those liberals who are into new-age religions. dont they count?
I probably should have been clearer--there's a small group of people on the political right who feel that way, that non-mainstream religions are evil. There are two groups who feel that way, and they're both small but loud. The first is the fundamentalist crowd, the type that would feel comfortable around that God Warrior woman. The second are political opportunists who don't believe in anything except raw naked power--they're the ones most responsible for pushing the meme.
Bolol
20-11-2005, 00:27
it seems as me as silly to link liberalism with hatred of relgion as it is to link conservatism with hatred of all religions that arent mainstream.

after all, think of all those liberals who are into new-age religions. dont they count?

Maybe I should have phrased it differently...I'm tired of Christian Bashing...

And yes...I know I shouldn't have linked anti-religion to all of liberalism (or whatever).

*Note* Do not post when upset
Ashmoria
20-11-2005, 00:37
Maybe I should have phrased it differently...I'm tired of Christian Bashing...

And yes...I know I shouldn't have linked anti-religion to all of liberalism (or whatever).

*Note* Do not post when upset
i dont think you can reasonably get away from christian bashing here. the majority of posters come from christian backgrounds of one sort or another. many of them are just reaching the age when they need to question what they have been taught about god. in another 10 years they will have it pretty much settled in their minds and have no more need to bash. we wont know them then, we'll be dealing with a whole new group of people who are in the age of questioning their beliefs.

it seems now like you are having no effect on people, but if you keep to rational compassionate responses you will have more influence than you will ever know.
Cahnt
20-11-2005, 00:37
Maybe I should have phrased it differently...I'm tired of Christian Bashing...

And yes...I know I shouldn't have linked anti-religion to all of liberalism (or whatever).

*Note* Do not post when upset
It's certainly a more descriptive term than "liberal" in this context.
I've always felt people are entitled to believe whatever ridiculous crap they want to: I only have a problem when they start insisting that they deserve special treatment on account of believing ridiculous crap, or expect everybody else to believe the same ridiculous crap. That, I do have a problem with.
The Nazz
20-11-2005, 00:39
If there is anything I ain't...then it's right-wing.

I'd vote for Collin Powell or John McCain...but that's only because the rest of the political spectrum is nothing but fucktards. [/self-hijack]
You might want to strike McCain from your list. He's been making nice with Falwell and Dobson of late, no doubt positioning himself for a last run at the big ring in 2008.

Why is it that when Hillary Clinton (of whom I am no big fan) repositions herself politically, it's looked at as opportunism, but when McCain does it, no one mentions it?
Bolol
20-11-2005, 00:41
i dont think you can reasonably get away from christian bashing here. the majority of posters come from christian backgrounds of one sort or another. many of them are just reaching the age when they need to question what they have been taught about god. in another 10 years they will have it pretty much settled in their minds and have no more need to bash. we wont know them then, we'll be dealing with a whole new group of people who are in the age of questioning their beliefs.

it seems now like you are having no effect on people, but if you keep to rational compassionate responses you will have more influence than you will ever know.

I have no problem with people questioning, I just wish people had a little more courtesy. Then I remind myself that most people on Earth are assholes in their own little way...then I play GTA for a few hours to vent my frustrations...
Cahnt
20-11-2005, 00:41
You might want to strike McCain from your list. He's been making nice with Falwell and Dobson of late, no doubt positioning himself for a last run at the big ring in 2008.

Why is it that when Hillary Clinton (of whom I am no big fan) repositions herself politically, it's looked at as opportunism, but when McCain does it, no one mentions it?
Because dissing a Republican is letting the terrorists win?
Eichen
20-11-2005, 00:42
It's obvious who people are pissing on here, and it's not easygoin' Christians. It's fundies and evangelicals. If you belong to either group, and claim to be tolerant of homosexuals, atheists, and other religions, you aren't a member or you're lying in order to come off as something you're not.

Don't get offended if you don't belong to either group. That's all there is to it.
Bolol
20-11-2005, 00:43
You might want to strike McCain from your list. He's been making nice with Falwell and Dobson of late, no doubt positioning himself for a last run at the big ring in 2008.

Why is it that when Hillary Clinton (of whom I am no big fan) repositions herself politically, it's looked at as opportunism, but when McCain does it, no one mentions it?

Perhaps it's because most people think of McCain as a generally nice moderate guy. While something about Clinton...I dunno but something about her just always screamed "asshole".

But if what you say is true...Well...I'd have narrowed down my choices a little...
The Nazz
20-11-2005, 00:49
Perhaps it's because most people think of McCain as a generally nice moderate guy. While something about Clinton...I dunno but something about her just always screamed "asshole".

But if what you say is true...Well...I'd have narrowed down my choices a little...McCain may have been a straight shooter at one time--I'd have liked the option to choose between him and Gore in 2000. It would have been the first time outside a primary I might have voted for a candidate instead of against one. But I think he got a taste of the big prize and ever since then, he's been doing whatever he has to do to ensure he gets one more shot at it.
Bolol
20-11-2005, 00:52
McCain may have been a straight shooter at one time--I'd have liked the option to choose between him and Gore in 2000. It would have been the first time outside a primary I might have voted for a candidate instead of against one. But I think he got a taste of the big prize and ever since then, he's been doing whatever he has to do to ensure he gets one more shot at it.

And Bolol losses a little more faith in Democracy...(Dem. Faith -4)
The Nazz
20-11-2005, 01:02
And Bolol losses a little more faith in Democracy...(Dem. Faith -4)
Don't lose faith--just get cynical. Look--anyone who wants political power is by definition unworthy of holding it, so the way I look at it, the best politician is the one most honest about his or her graft. Everyone is going to fuck you, so the one who's honest about the ways and means of the fucking is the one I choose. And if they want my vote bad enough, they'll show me that they'll fuck someone else worse and give me a break from time to time. Since I'm broke and don't make a lot of money, that means I generally vote for Democrats.
Keruvalia
20-11-2005, 01:24
Every liberal I know is also extremely religious. Not sure where this "liberal = antireligion" thing comes into play.
Bolol
20-11-2005, 01:30
Every liberal I know is also extremely religious. Not sure where this "liberal = antireligion" thing comes into play.

I'd seen alot of it over time, I might have gotten caught up in all the generalization and unconsciously made my own.

Oh well...
Keruvalia
20-11-2005, 01:32
I'd seen alot of it over time, I might have gotten caught up in all the generalization and unconsciously made my own.

Oh well...

Meh ... generalizations are fun. It makes a great drinking game.
Vittos Ordination
20-11-2005, 01:48
Liberalism deals with religion in many ways.

The founders of liberalism considered religion to be the justification for government and society. The social contract was a rational decision and all rationale came through God. So John Locke, one of the fathers of liberalism, stated that those without belief in God did not deserve rights.

Most modern liberals believe that religion, like race, gender, and sexuality, is a non-factor when determining the worth of a person.

So your ideas of liberalism are greatly skewed.
Letila
20-11-2005, 01:58
I really don't care either way. I see no evidence that any religion is true but I really don't care about it much.
Gymoor II The Return
20-11-2005, 02:21
I have no problem with people questioning, I just wish people had a little more courtesy. Then I remind myself that most people on Earth are assholes in their own little way...then I play GTA for a few hours to vent my frustrations...

I'm, not anti-religion, but I am anti-ignorance...and that goes for the loudmouthed minority on both sides. For example, religion and evolution not only don't oppose each other, they don't reference each other either. They have absolutely nothing to do with each other...unless you a a fundamental literalist or a science dabbler who somehow has picked up the misapprehension that science even attempts to dispel religion. Those savvy to science know that science doesn't claim to explain everything and only addresses natural phenomena.

Furthermore, liberalsim, at it's core to the gross majority of those who self-describe themselves as liberal (or who are, in fact, liberal under the definition I and other liberals have come to hold but who reject the label for reasons of their own.) is a philosphy of acceptance and even the encouraging of an abundance of differing personal beliefs in those around us. We want to discourage bias, so we avoid wanting to teach or emphasize a single religious belief-system. This, in turn, appears to many who are devoutly religious as an attack on them and their beliefs. This also appears, to those who are devoutly anti-religious, as an affirmation-by-ommission of their view. It's not that at all. On the other hand, I can understand that the idea of, "Hey buddy, other religions are just as valid as your own!" could be seen by some as an attack on the religion that they themselves view as above all others. That's their problem.

As for my beliefs, I don't believe in any all-powerful being as described in any religious text. If there is a higher power then "his" aspect and knowledge would be so far beyond what our mortal minds would even be able to imagine that I think speculation is silly. I admit a bias against, but not an automatic dislike of, organized religion, but only because I think they are trying to sell an ideology that at the very least is incomplete. I can't conceive of anaanthrpomorphic supreme being. A mind able to conceive of all of creation at once? I can't even begin to imagine what that would be like. It boggles my mind and the mind of anyone imaginitive enough to realize that infinity is unimaginable.
Bolol
20-11-2005, 02:45
Liberalism deals with religion in many ways.

The founders of liberalism considered religion to be the justification for government and society. The social contract was a rational decision and all rationale came through God. So John Locke, one of the fathers of liberalism, stated that those without belief in God did not deserve rights.

Most modern liberals believe that religion, like race, gender, and sexuality, is a non-factor when determining the worth of a person.

So your ideas of liberalism are greatly skewed.

Okay...I get really confused when so many people tell me what liberalism is and what it isn't.

When I made my original post, I was refering to gross generalizations made by American liberalism. And that was the distinction I was trying to make; that those few who say they are accepting and open-minded trash religion and it's followers.
Keruvalia
20-11-2005, 02:56
Okay...I get really confused when so many people tell me what liberalism is and what it isn't.

Well, I tend not to use the term "liberalism" because so many people get a bee in their bonnet about it, but I do call myself a "liberal" ... here is the definition I accept:

Liberal

Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.


Oh, and for the record ...

Liberalism

A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority.
Vittos Ordination
20-11-2005, 02:56
Okay...I get really confused when so many people tell me what liberalism is and what it isn't.

When I made my original post, I was refering to gross generalizations made by American liberalism. And that was the distinction I was trying to make; that those few who say they are accepting and open-minded trash religion and it's followers.

That is hardly a trait of liberalism, be it the modern American liberal or otherwise.

And if religious adherents can say that atheists are going to hell, I would say that atheists should be able to say that religious adherents are wasting their brain.
Keruvalia
20-11-2005, 02:58
And if religious adherents can say that atheists are going to hell, I would say that atheists should be able to say that religious adherents are wasting their brain.

Agreed ... on a case by case basis. I have never told anyone they're going to hell, hence ... well .... you get the picture.
Bolol
20-11-2005, 03:01
And if religious adherents can say that atheists are going to hell, I would say that atheists should be able to say that religious adherents are wasting their brain.

An eye for an eye...or...sticks and stones...well...ah, whatever! I was never good at proverbs.
Solartopia
20-11-2005, 03:02
Equating liberalism with intolerance makes as much sense as labelling all Christians as white supremacists based on the behaviour of the KKK.

Unfortunately, there are bigots galore on all sides of politics ... and religion.
Vittos Ordination
20-11-2005, 03:03
Agreed ... on a case by case basis. I have never told anyone they're going to hell, hence ... well .... you get the picture.

I don't believe you have recieved too much grief for your religious beliefs on here, at least not from liberals, have you?
Keruvalia
20-11-2005, 03:06
I don't believe you have recieved too much grief for your religious beliefs on here, at least not from liberals, have you?

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me.

;)

No, I personally do not get any grief about my religious beliefs from anyone. Well, except the occasional mindless troll, but they don't count.

I have a feeling that it's mostly because I wear Islam proudly like a badge but don't use it as a weapon.
Bolol
20-11-2005, 03:10
Equating liberalism with intolerance makes as much sense as labelling all Christians as white supremacists based on the behaviour of the KKK.

Unfortunately, there are bigots galore on all sides of politics ... and religion.

I realize that, and that is what I was trying to say, how generally tolerant people (liberals) can become intolerant due to the misguided actions of a nutcase from the middle of nowhere (KKK dude) and label all as such.

I KNOW there are extremists on both sides...

I'm starting to think this whole thread was a mistake. I was angry and just needed to vent. This disgrace can be locked if the mods so deem fit...