NationStates Jolt Archive

Aside from the fact this thread could be an interesting way to view religion...i'm helping make a mod, that well....best explanation would be bonuses. But i view it as, the teachings the religion has, and how it would effect that society. Basically their belief structure is.

The religion i need help in, determining said "bonuses" are:

Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, and No State Religion (If you use theocracy when using that, it prevents religion from being spread at all in your lands. ;))

So basically what i'm looking for in each of those is...

Productivity: Are any religions more 'productive' do their religions state them the need to work faster then normal? slower? none at all? etc. (applies more to buildings)

Science: Are any religions more backwards in science? more liberal? neutral?

Aggressiveness: War Weariness and Unit production...how are the religions when it comes to war? Would the people hate a warmongering leader, and prefer quick peace...you follow.

Health: Sanitation and Dietary laws, would probably be the best equivalent.

Commerce: Self-Explanatory, what are their financial laws like?

Creativity: Destroy culture, or unify it? Freedom of speech? pursuit of other religions?

Organization skills: Would a civilization under Hinduism have their cities be more organized or cost less, say compared to Taoism? Courthouse laws as well.

These are just many examples...there is anarchy, aggressiveness, great people, Missionaries, basically i just want stuff like that.

BTW: Please post proofs...don't say Islam, should get increased military production, unless you can actually find something in the Koran, that would make them more aggressive as a civ then the others.

I sincerely hope i will not regret making this topic, and see people saying that their religion is being bashed...

All i need is Religions translated into Civilization 4 terms.

You guys like debating religion alot so here is a great way, to make religion more realistic in terms of gameplay. =)

Go there, for ideas in terms of 'balance'
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/civics/

The only religion I'd ever be interested in using in a game would be a militaristic death cult.

Judaism has historically been more militaristic than Islam, btw… they had to destroy the entire Ammonite civilisation, or something.

Buddhism is probably the most scientific, I would have said. Haven't got time to explain

The only religion I'd ever be interested in using in a game would be a militaristic death cult.

Judaism has historically been more militaristic than Islam, btw… they had to destroy the entire Ammonite civilisation, or something.

I'm talking about the teachings...not what G-d said.

I can Claim Christianity is militaristic due to the crusades, or Islam now.

All people have in a sense fought in the name of their beliefs, but it doesn't mean that that the religion justified it.

And so you would be interested in Mithraism then?

Buddhism is probably the most scientific, I would have said. Haven't got time to explain


Well i can't take your word for it, until you provide the proof. But i hope you will come back and explain later.

Is this what you are looking for?

O MY SERVANTS! Ye are the trees of My garden; ye must give forth goodly and wondrous fruits, that ye yourselves and others may profit therefrom. Thus it is incumbent on every one to engage in crafts and professions, for therein lies the secret of wealth, O men of understanding! For results depend upon means, and the grace of God shall be all-sufficient unto you. Trees that yield no fruit have been and will ever be for the fire.

(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

O SON OF MY HANDMAID!
Be not troubled in poverty nor confident in riches, for poverty is followed by riches, and riches are followed by poverty. Yet to be poor in all save God is a wondrous gift, belittle not the value thereof, for in the end it will make thee rich in God, and thus thou shalt know the meaning of the utterance, "In truth ye are the poor," and the holy words, "God is the all-possessing," shall even as the true morn break forth gloriously resplendent upon the horizon of the lover's heart, and abide secure on the throne of wealth.


53. O YE THAT PRIDE YOURSELVES ON MORTAL RICHES!
Know ye in truth that wealth is a mighty barrier between the seeker and his desire, the lover and his beloved. The rich, but for a few, shall in no wise attain the court of His presence nor enter the city of content and resignation. Well is it then with him, who, being rich, is not hindered by his riches from the eternal kingdom, nor deprived by them of imperishable dominion. By the Most Great Name! The splendor of such a wealthy man shall illuminate the dwellers of heaven even as the sun enlightens the people of the earth!

54. O YE RICH ONES ON EARTH!
The poor in your midst are My trust; guard ye My trust, and be not intent only on your own ease.

(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

Ponder and reflect: all sciences, arts, crafts, inventions and discoveries, have been once the secrets of nature and in conformity with the laws thereof must remain hidden; yet man through his discovering power interfereth with the laws of nature and transfereth these hidden secrets from the invisible to the visible plane.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 338)

A muslim prays five times a day. Alot of holidays, fridays being a religious day of the week. Then Ramadan being 30 days of fasting during the day and more than usual praying. So would that make them less efficient in work?

Yeah pretty much...

But only the 7 religions + 1, that are in the game currently.

Judaism
Islam
Christianity
Hinduism
Taoism
confucianism
Buddhism
No State Religion

A muslim prays five times a day. Alot of holidays, fridays being a religious day of the week. Then Ramadan being 30 days of fasting during the day and more than usual praying. So would that make them less efficient in work?

That would be a very good point....but then i look at this.

Jews pray 3 times a day, have much more holidays, plus Friday Night and Saturday Afternoon off with rest.

But Jew's appear to be highly productive...and yes i am talking about orthodox ones. I know lawyers, and workers...and people of all occupations.

But it is a start, thank you for your input. =)

For Islam (also TG'd to ya):

Productivity: Pretty laid back bunch. Great artisans, poets, and philosophers ... but not so much into the whole lavish architecture kind of thing.

This is cultural, not religious though.

Science: Highly scientific.

[96:1-5] Read! In the name of your Lord who created - Created the human from something which clings. Read! And your Lord is Most Bountiful - He who taught (the use of) the Pen, Taught the human that which he knew not.

[2:269] He [Allah] grants wisdom to whom He pleases; and he to whom wisdom is granted indeed receives a benefit overflowing. But none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

[29:20] Say: Travel through the earth and see how Allah originated creation; so will Allah produce the second creation (of the Afterlife): for Allah has power over all things.

etc etc

Aggressiveness: Strongly defensive but not supposed to start wars. Tendency for religious leaders to go on insane rants, though.

Health: Cleanliness is essential. Dietary laws similar to kashrut. Forbidden to us are dead meat, blood and flesh of swine (Qur'an 5:3) and intoxicants (Qur'an 5:91, 92, and 2:219).

Daily hygenic rituals, such as Wudu (Washing all the exposed areas of the body, hand, feet, face, mouth, nostrils etc. 5 times a day). The movements in Salat (5 daily prayers) are mild, uniform, and involve all muscles and joints.


Commerce: Qur'an forbid usury (not interest). Qur'an 2:275. Mildly Capitalistic, but very Communistic. (Qur'an 2:282, 7:157, etc)

Creativity: Highly creative, exploration of the arts (especially poetry and music) is considered noble.

Say, 'Who prohibited the nice things God has created for His creatures, and the good provisions?' Say,' such provisions are to be enjoyed in THIS life by those who BELIEVE. Moreover, the good provisions will be exclusively theirs on the Day of resurrection.' We thus explain the revelations for people who know. 7:32

Organization skills: Have to get back to you on that one.

Probably more needed, but I'll need more thinking time.

Hmmm so..

Islam
-Penalty to commerce
-Bonus to war weariness
-Bonus to science
-Bonus to health

I think we should ignore the culture part...hard to grade that for any religion.

But how is that so far?

Islam
-Penalty to commerce
-Bonus to war weariness
-Bonus to science
-Bonus to health


Sounds good so far, yup!

BTW, here's what i got so far talking to other people.

Christianity
-Science Penalty.
-Bonuses to Christian Missionaries.
-Spread religion quicker via culture.
-Chance Missionaries wont be used up, but still spread the religion.


Judaism
-Cultural bonus
-Cannot spread religion as easily
-No Missionaries
-Bonus to health

Islam
-Penalty to Commerce
-Bonus to War Weariness
-Bonus to Science
-Bonus to Health


I'm probably going to remove the Cultural part...but the person who suggested that, made the argument based on diasapora....

Are we basing these on actual history or what? Christian societ has sometimes been the most anti-science religion (Inquisition,biblical creationists, etc.), and at other times devout Christians have been at the forefront of science and technology (such as Isaac Newton, Galileo, etc). Same with Islam. (the uncreative Taliban or late Ottoman Empire, contrasting with Avicenna, etc.)

Christianity should be economic... The Roman Catholic church has so many examples to prove this.

1. We are basing this on teachings....although teachings and history seem to get intertwined, so i am being more lax on, how would a proper christian act, to someone believing he is a proper christian only to find out he puts the religion in shame.

2. Technically yes...but each religion have their own shrine, which brings in the dough, relative to the amount of followers.

That is probably true historically...so all religions are equal finanically in terms of how much money they get in shrines, per capita.

I think specific type religion should have minimal effect on science.
Theocracy, no matter what religion, would probably be more anti-science, and a moderate government of any religion could achieve great progress

"Teachings" is extremely difficult to define. I also don't think any major world religion scriptures specifically strongly supports or condemns science. It takes a lot of interpretation of scriptures, depending on the historical time period, and it is also extremely rare that a religious scientist believes he "puts his religion to shame". for example Galileo always remained a fanatical Catholic to his death, and he never believed he shamed his religion, even though his religion heavily perseucted him. Galileo alwaysbelieved that his Catholic persecutors were fallible misguided mortals, and he also believed that his scientifc work was completely in the spirit of Christianity.

Also, historically to answer Turquoise Days, Buddhism is not automatically the most scientific religion. Again, there are too many factors to determine whether a buddhist nation is advanced or not. Today, most Buddhist nations are secular and scientific, but not so in the past. In the 1600s almost all Chinese people (who officially practiced Mahayana Buddhism) believed that China was the center of a flat earth, and China was literally also the absolute center of the entire universe; above China was Heaven and under China was hell; surrounding China were barbarians. Catholic Missionaries came to China and revealed that the earth was round. Of course the Catholic Church of the time also belived that the sun revolved around the earth, etc. It is very difficult to model the relationship between religion and scientific progress.

Taoism should actually have a penalty to everything, because Dao De Jing (Taoist scriptures) teach that people should reject everything in the material world. A true "taoist" government would abandon the affairs of government itself. That is why no government in history has been Taoist, and Taoism was, and is only truly practiced in China as a philosophy adopted by retired people or hermits who don't have much to lose. Young and vigorous people, who have so much invested in this world, are unfit for taoism.

Hinduism (including Jainism and Sikhism)

Productivity: Are any religions more 'productive' do their religions state them the need to work faster then normal? slower? none at all? etc. (applies more to buildings)

No bonus or penalty

Science: Are any religions more backwards in science? more liberal? neutral?

Very liberal. Very decentralised faith allowing and encouraging personal spiritual quest and growth.

Aggressiveness: War Weariness and Unit production...how are the religions when it comes to war? Would the people hate a warmongering leader, and prefer quick peace...you follow.

Non aggressive and generally peaceful and tolerant. War is a last resort. But you can have a small wonder of "Sikhism" which could have a military bonus (maybe Khalsa warriors - group of warrior saints who were instrumental in overthrowing Mughal empire)

Health: Sanitation and Dietary laws, would probably be the best equivalent.

No specific laws as such. So no penalty or bonus.

Commerce: Self-Explanatory, what are their financial laws like?

No prohibition to make wealth other than advising to not get attached to material wealth. Historically has been a trading civilization.

Creativity: Destroy culture, or unify it? Freedom of speech? pursuit of other religions?

Very creative. Diversity is tolerated and encouraged.

Organization skills: Would a civilization under Hinduism have their cities be more organized or cost less, say compared to Taoism? Courthouse laws as well.

Hindu civilization would not be more organised than Taoism since in Taoism, collective will has precedence over individualism. Hence Chinese civilisation has always favored strong central rule whilst Indian civilisation was more fractured and diversified.

These are just many examples...there is anarchy, aggressiveness, great people, Missionaries, basically i just want stuff like that.

You can have holy sadhus (holy saints) appearing more frequently in Hindu civilization and they can make people content and happy.

Hope this helps.

Hindu civilization would not be more organised than Taoism since in Taoism, collective will has precedence over individualism. Hence Chinese civilisation has always favored strong central rule whilst Indian civilisation was more fractured and diversified.
Taoism is actually highly individualistic. Pure taoism is even anarchic, because it rejects all government and all society, and glorifies the hermit lifestylle. THe collectivist aspect of Chinese society comes from Confucianism, which theoretically, is the polar opposite of Taoism.

With all due respect to Hindus, the caste system is a serious impediment to the development of a market economy. I would say that a Hindu society would likely have an impediment to productivity (except possibly agriculture) and commerce.

religions should manifest themselves in the game through increased complacency/indifference to cruel taxation, war, shortages, etc: as long as they concentrate on following their religion to prepare for the afterlife, they could not care less what the government is doing with their lifes in this world, that they are only passing through anyway.

hinduism should lead to especially large complacency, as its subjects believe their place in this world was determined by their deeds in the former life and they have to fullfill their role as good as they can. then again hindus will show little initiative to improve themselves, which hurts the economy.

all religions should receive a penalty on science, as they have difficulties to accomodate new findings in their traditions, religions mainly based on holy books (judaism, christianity, islam) should have higher penalties, because they will show the greatest resistance in embracing new devellopments.

religions, that postulate an afterlife, the quality of which is measured by moral behaviour during lifetime (specifically the idea of "hell") will discourage corruption, on the other hand the strife for worldly riches will be diminished.

for a long time christians were not allowed to charge interest, when lending money, which created the jews exclusive role as money lenders (because if i cannot charge interest when lending, i am not going to lend at all) and even today muslims, when pious, are held not to charge interest when lending (giving rise to strange institutions like "islamic banks" that do i dont know what with the money of their customers).

religions based mainly on a holy book can spread faster than those based on philosophy, as the books can convert on their own, you dont need practitioners in your surrounding to pick up the faith.

Religions in Civ just never seemed important. All the various effects of religion that so far have been described in this thread could be achieved in one way or another, either earlier through the different government systems or through the system of Alpha Centauri (probably the best balanced and most logical civic system)

I don't see why they bother to put them in now.

Along with loads of other direct political messages.

I am disgusted by Civ4, compared to the earlier versions.

I say scrap the religion all together. Keep the holy cities there for cultural purposes maybe (being the center of a religion does have an effect, see Vatican).

With all due respect to Hindus, the caste system is a serious impediment to the development of a market economy. I would say that a Hindu society would likely have an impediment to productivity (except possibly agriculture) and commerce.

lol.

Before the British looted the country (imposing duties on Indian exports and dumping manufactured goods from British factories) India was actually a pretty well-off country.

Indian poverty is a man-made phenomenon.

It was the effects of the the mercantilist British policies (resulting in deaths of millions in Bengal famine) that made Nehru chose Socialism.

The caste system has nothing to do with being pro (or anti) market economy.

Aggressiveness: I believe both Christianity and Islam should have more aggression or military bonuses (war weariness, unit production, etc.) because they are missionary religions, and a key element of their faiths involve spreading their respective messages of truth. This often manifests itself through martial power Muhammed himself led military forces to unify the Arab world, and he was Islam's prophet.

Creativity: I think Judaism and Christianity should have harsh penalties against foreign cultures, freedom of speech, and other religions. The first commandment of Moses' Ten is that you have no other Gods before the Lord, and numerous instances in both the Hebrew and Christian Bibles cite punishments for those who consort with foreign belief. Islam is a rougher call in this area; I think the early Muslims and modern ones may differ. If ancient Buddhism is like modern Buddhism, I would say it's the most compable of coexisting with other religions/cultures.

Culture: I'm nearly certain that "No State Religion" would be detrimental to culture and make the civilization more vulnerable to other missionaries. This can be off-set by science or production bonuses--whatever--but there is a natural human tendency to believe in something supernatural, and in general people who are "unified by negatives", or disbelief, are in fact less unified/patriotic/whathaveyou than those unified by common belief.

That is, of course, unless "No State Religion" is something along the lines of Religious Nationalism or Communism...

I actually bought this game and played a few games. Since I am trying to win a culture victory over my opponents I get every religion in my cities. Then build temples, Montesory, and there related third structures to up my cultural base points. One thing I have noticed is that Christian missionaries in game have alot more difficult time spreading there religion. So I tested it with world builder and set up different scenerios for spreading religion. I noticed overwhelmingly that the Christian religion was harder to spread with the missionaries. Think there is some type of bias encoded? I noticed the other 6 were about even.

The only religion that I've encountered that would have no problem accepting new Scientific Discoveries would be Buddhism...

for a long time christians were not allowed to charge interest, when lending money, which created the jews exclusive role as money lenders (because if i cannot charge interest when lending, i am not going to lend at all) and even today muslims, when pious, are held not to charge interest when lending (giving rise to strange institutions like "islamic banks" that do i dont know what with the money of their customers).

.

Here is a snapshot of what an Islamic style bank does. Many don't know how they work. It's worth reading if your into this kind of info.

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/econ/nsbanks.htm

I actually bought this game and played a few games. Since I am trying to win a culture victory over my opponents I get every religion in my cities. Then build temples, Montesory, and there related third structures to up my cultural base points. One thing I have noticed is that Christian missionaries in game have alot more difficult time spreading there religion. So I tested it with world builder and set up different scenerios for spreading religion. I noticed overwhelmingly that the Christian religion was harder to spread with the missionaries. Think there is some type of bias encoded? I noticed the other 6 were about even.

Wow. Yeah, I mean... everything ABOUT Christianity is missionary.

I hyperbolize, but you know.

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/econ/nsbanks.htm

That's actually a pretty cool article. Thanks, M.

<snippage>
Also, historically to answer Turquoise Days, Buddhism is not automatically the most scientific religion. Again, there are too many factors to determine whether a buddhist nation is advanced or not. Today, most Buddhist nations are secular and scientific, but not so in the past. In the 1600s almost all Chinese people (who officially practiced Mahayana Buddhism) believed that China was the center of a flat earth, and China was literally also the absolute center of the entire universe; above China was Heaven and under China was hell; surrounding China were barbarians. Catholic Missionaries came to China and revealed that the earth was round. Of course the Catholic Church of the time also belived that the sun revolved around the earth, etc. It is very difficult to model the relationship between religion and scientific progress.
Thanks for that, i was busy last night. Anyway, I'll try and explain myself...
My justification for a Buddhist science bonus was based on what I'd heard about Buddhist monks practicing scientific methods in their researches into medicine etc - I'll admit that this info comes primarily from Kim Stanley Robinsons books, (The Years of Rice and Salt in particular) but I've always found his work to be well researched, and it seems to be backed up by what I've read elsewhere. It seems to me that the methods of analysis practiced by buddhism are not dissimilar to those in science, and this would provide a boost for research, by the two methods of thinking interweaving. But that's just me.

As for the rest of the aspects, I would suggest definitely a penalty to War Weariness, perhaps less so for a defensive war; a bonus for health - Buddhist medicine again; and maybe a penalty on commerce, due to the inherent redistibutive nature of buddhism. Maybe a cultura bonus too, I dunno.

BTW, here's what i got so far talking to other people.

Christianity
-Science Penalty.
-Bonuses to Christian Missionaries.
-Spread religion quicker via culture.
-Chance Missionaries wont be used up, but still spread the religion.


Judaism
-Cultural bonus
-Cannot spread religion as easily
-No Missionaries
-Bonus to health

Islam
-Penalty to Commerce
-Bonus to War Weariness
-Bonus to Science
-Bonus to Health


I'm probably going to remove the Cultural part...but the person who suggested that, made the argument based on diasapora....


If your talking about removing the culture for Judaism, I think you should leave it in to off set the negatives of being harder to spread and having no missionaries.

Wouldn't it be easier to use generic religous structures rather than actual religions?

e.g. Monotheism , Polytheism, Secularism, Blood Cult etc.

Monotheism would find it easier to converet people and spread the word and are strongly unified but have scientific penalties early in the game (until a tech like 'Non-literalism' was researched).

Polytheism would find it hard to convert people as they would be divided and the culture would be slightly less unified. To counteract this, they could be more productive because of scientists worshipping knowledge gods, merchants worshipping commerce gods etc.

Secularism would make the culture much less unified but with improved science, commerce and effiency. Secularism couldn't be spread to other cultures as it has no missionaries. It could also attract distrust from more religous civilisations.

A blood cult would have a stronger and more aggressive millitary (think Aztecs before they were wiped out) and a very unified culture. However, they'd have a large penalty when it came to diplomatic relations. To make it more interesting, you could impair their efficency when not at war (the sacrifices have to come from somewhere...)

I'm sure other people will be able to think of more varitations. I hope this was helpful.:)

@Randomlittleisland

Yes, it might be...but they picked the 7 religions/beliefs/etc, that had the most impact on the world. I've been trying to find the most influential beliefs in America, before say 1492. Haven't really found much. =\

Anyways...here is the updated list,

Buddhism
-Cultural Bonus
-Commerce Penalty
-Health Bonus
-Peanlty to war weariness
-Penalty to military unit production

Christianity
-Bonuses to Christian Missionaries.
-Spreads religion quicker via culture.
-Chance Missionaries wont be used up, but still spread the religion.
-Can have more then 3 missionaries active
-Missionaries can go through any terrain

Confucianism
-Highly Collectivist
--50% culture
-Decreased upkeep

Hinduism
-Cannot gather food resource from cow
-Cow gives +1 happiness
-Cultural Bonus
-Penalty to production

Islam
-Penalty to Commerce
-Bonus to War Weariness
-Bonus to Health
-Cannot gather food resource from Pig

Judaism
-Cultural bonus
-Penalty to religion spread
-No Missionaries
-Bonus to Health
-Cannot gather food resource from Pig, Clam, or Crabs

Taoism
-Highly individualistic
-+50% Culture
-Increased upkeep