NationStates Jolt Archive

A couple who prayed over their sick baby instead of getting it to a doctor for antibiotics that would have saved it's life have been convicted of reckless homicide, but their sentence is only a year of work release for each "parent".

Why is it that these people who recklessly caused the death of their child are treated any differently just because their motivation was superstition rather than crack addiction? If a couple of crackheads let their baby die rather than get it medical attention they'd do hard time.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8933152/

Two days after she was born?

This story sounds funny, how long of a medical record can you have at two days old? How negligent can a person 'choose' to be in two days?


What the hell, though, they could have just aborted the sickly thing twenty weeks earlier...

What the hell, though, they could have just aborted the sickly thing twenty weeks earlier... Nice to know that you approve of getting rid of "defective" babies. I'm glad you weren't around when I was born.

The mind really does boggle.
Faith can be a very powerful force; too powerful, it seems.

Nice to know that you approve of getting rid of "defective" babies. I'm glad you weren't around when I was born.

In case you don't know me, I'll clarify for you, I don't approve of ANY abortions. My point was sarcasm in advance for those that do approve of abortions and are getting ready to condemn this couple because they had a home delivery but that the child died within two days...Abortion defenders can hardly say a word about this.

In case you don't know me, I'll clarify for you, I don't approve of ANY abortions. My point was sarcasm in advance for those that do approve of abortions and are getting ready to condemn this couple because they had a home delivery but that the child died within two days...Abortion defenders can hardly say a word about this.
Sure we can. A three month old fetus and a baby aren't the same thing. Just like Terri Schiavo and a functional human being weren't the same. Starving Terri was not wrong. Starving a person who is conscious of the fact that you're killing him or her is.

i guess god's will was that the baby died :rolleyes:

In case you don't know me, I'll clarify for you, I don't approve of ANY abortions. My point was sarcasm in advance for those that do approve of abortions and are getting ready to condemn this couple because they had a home delivery but that the child died within two days...Abortion defenders can hardly say a word about this.
They'd have no reason to. This isn't about an unwanted child, but about parents who did nothing (alright, they felt they were doing something, but as far as I'm concerned they sat there and watched their child die), when their child was sick.

Nice to know that you approve of getting rid of "defective" babies. I'm glad you weren't around when I was born.

The baby in this case, however, was not "defective". It had an infection that could have easily been treated with an antibiotic. My take on it: If they were going to be this neglegent, and allow their child to die anyway, why not just get an abortion. Would have saved a whole lot of time. At least the child wouldn't have felt pain if you had had an abortion earlier on(say at the first trimester), then letting it suffer with infection for a few days.

Sure we can. A three month old fetus and a baby aren't the same thing. Just like Terri Schiavo and a functional human being weren't the same. Starving Terri was not wrong. Starving a person who is conscious of the fact that you're killing him or her is.


You have a point, there is a big difference between them, the couple here didn't kill their child on purpose.




What are you going to do next, incarcerate everyone that ever lost a child to SIDS?

I'm not even defending the couple, I'm only pointing out that the judge has a better grasp on the situation that your 'shock and horror' response does.

There is a big difference, the couple here didn't kill their child on purpose.




What are you going to do next, incarcerate everyone that ever lost a child to SIDS?

I'm not even defending the couple, I'm only pointing out that the judge has a better grasp on the situation that your 'shock and horror' response does.
A couple of crackheads who neglect their baby until it dies don't do it intentionally either. Why does this couple deserve a lighter sentence?

When the priest Daiyu from Sanshu was making a sick call at a certain place, he was told, "The man has just now died." Daiyu said, "Such a thing shouldn't have happened at this time. Didn't this occur from insufficient treatment? What a shame!''
Now the doctor happened to be there at that time and heard what was said from the other side of the shoji. He got extraordinarily angry and came out and said, "I heard Your Reverence say that the man died from insufficient treatment. Since I am a rather bungling doctor, this is probably true. I have heard that a priest embodies the power of the Buddhist Law. Let me see you bring this dead man back to life, for without such evidence Buddhism is worthless."
Daiyu was put out by this, but he felt that it would be unpardonable for a priest to put a blemish on Buddhism, so he said, "I will indeed show you how to bring his life back by prayer. Please wait a moment. I must go prepare myself," and returned to the temple. Soon he came back and sat in meditation next to the corpse. Pretty soon the dead man began to breathe and then completely revived. It is said that he lived on for another half a year. As this was something told directly to the priest Tannen, there is nothing mistaken about it.
When telling of the way he prayed, Daiyu said, "This is something not practiced in our sect, so I didn't know of any way of prayer. I simply set my heart for the sake of the Buddhist Law, returned to the temple, sharpened a short sword that had been given as an offering to the temple, and put it in my robe. Then I faced the dead man and prayed, 'If the strength of the Buddhist Law exists, come back to life immediately. ' Since I was thus committed , if he hadn't come back to life, I was resolved to the point of cutting open my stomach and dying embracing the corpse."

-Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo

When the priest Daiyu from Sanshu was making a sick call at a certain place, he was told, "The man has just now died." Daiyu said, "Such a thing shouldn't have happened at this time. Didn't this occur from insufficient treatment? What a shame!''
Now the doctor happened to be there at that time and heard what was said from the other side of the shoji. He got extraordinarily angry and came out and said, "I heard Your Reverence say that the man died from insufficient treatment. Since I am a rather bungling doctor, this is probably true. I have heard that a priest embodies the power of the Buddhist Law. Let me see you bring this dead man back to life, for without such evidence Buddhism is worthless."
Daiyu was put out by this, but he felt that it would be unpardonable for a priest to put a blemish on Buddhism, so he said, "I will indeed show you how to bring his life back by prayer. Please wait a moment. I must go prepare myself," and returned to the temple. Soon he came back and sat in meditation next to the corpse. Pretty soon the dead man began to breathe and then completely revived. It is said that he lived on for another half a year. As this was something told directly to the priest Tannen, there is nothing mistaken about it.
When telling of the way he prayed, Daiyu said, "This is something not practiced in our sect, so I didn't know of any way of prayer. I simply set my heart for the sake of the Buddhist Law, returned to the temple, sharpened a short sword that had been given as an offering to the temple, and put it in my robe. Then I faced the dead man and prayed, 'If the strength of the Buddhist Law exists, come back to life immediately. ' Since I was thus committed , if he hadn't come back to life, I was resolved to the point of cutting open my stomach and dying embracing the corpse."

-Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Yeah, I'm sure he raised the dead. Happens all the time really.

Once again, ignorance of simple causality causes death.

Prayer healing only works when a person has the biological capacity to heal themselves given enough emotional and psychological encouragement.

Babies don't have that trait.

Perhaps the Church'll get sued for not making this information common knowledge. Who knows? Would that be surprising?

A couple of crackheads who neglect their baby until it dies don't do it intentionally either. Why does this couple deserve a lighter sentence?

When crack heads are sent to prison for neglect (since you are not providing a case to compare I'll have to make one up) they neglect the baby until it starves, or the baby itself is a crack-addict itself and already suffering withdrawals etc In the end, though, the crack-head addicts did it on purpose via the results of criminal behavior.

When crack heads are sent to prison for neglect (since you are not providing a case to compare I'll have to make one up) they neglect the baby until it starves, or the baby itself is a crack-addict itself and already suffering withdrawals etc In the end, though, the crack-head addicts did it on purpose via the results of criminal behavior.
And the "parents" in this story did it intentionally as a result of their criminally negligent behavior.

Yeah, I'm sure he raised the dead. Happens all the time really.

just because you don't have the spiritual power to do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

just because you don't have the spiritual power to do it doesn't mean it can't be done.
I can't believe anything that extraordinary without strong evidence. Until it can be replicated and observed I think it's a lie or an exaggeration.

I can't believe anything that extraordinary without strong evidence. Until it can be replicated and observed I think it's a lie or an exaggeration.

"He wasn't dead. He was hung over. I told people that." -Jesus. From a recnt interview. :D

Because of some business, Morooka Hikoemon was called upon to swear before the gods concerning the truth of a certain matter. But he said, "A samurai's word is harder than metal. Since I have impressed this fact upon myself, what more can the gods and Buddhas do?" and the swearing was cancelled. This happened when he was twenty-six.

-Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo

And the "parents" in this story did it intentionally as a result of their criminally negligent behavior.

And they are serving time, because they deserve it, what's your point? If you want to sit there yap up a storm like a lap-dog when the door bell rings, just keep pretending that choosing to abuse drugs while watching children is the equivalent to people that believe in home birthing and holistic treatment.

Because of some business, Morooka Hikoemon was called upon to swear before the gods concerning the truth of a certain matter. But he said, "A samurai's word is harder than metal. Since I have impressed this fact upon myself, what more can the gods and Buddhas do?" and the swearing was cancelled. This happened when he was twenty-six.

-Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Quit all that jibba jabba. I pity the fool who quote stuff Mr. T don't understand.

I pity the fool who don't see quote above.

And they are serving time, because they deserve it, what's your point? If you want to sit there yap up a storm like a lap-dog when the door bell rings, just keep pretending that choosing to abuse drugs while watching children is the equivalent to people that believe in home birthing and holistic treatment.
It's just as negligent. Whether the reason for the negligence is religion or drugs doesn't matter. It still results in a child dying from a curable illness.

I pity the fool who don't see quote above.

well, we were talking about the validity of a story in Hagakure. though, you might also argue over the stories of Nitta Yoshisada and Ono Doken. let me 'splain...

Nitta Yoshisada was a general in command of loyalist troops around the 10th or 11th cent.(i forget) anyways, before he could be captured after beign defeated, he cut off his head and buried it.

Ono Doken was condemned to death by burning. when the official went to inspect his corpse, he leaped forward, took the inspsectors' short sword and cut him down before dissolving into ashes.

well, we were talking about the validity of a story in Hagakure. though, you might also argue over the stories of Nitta Yoshisada and Ono Doken. let me 'splain...

Nitta Yoshisada was a general in command of loyalist troops around the 10th or 11th cent.(i forget) anyways, before he could be captured after beign defeated, he cut off his head and buried it.

Ono Doken was condemned to death by burning. when the official went to inspect his corpse, he leaped forward, took the inspsectors' short sword and cut him down before dissolving into ashes.
And you believe that?

It's just as negligent. Whether the reason for the negligence is religion or drugs doesn't matter. It still results in a child dying from a curable illness.

I agree with you. Holistic medicine is used primarily in cases where the body already has the potential to heal itself. That's why you don't hear people touting herbal therapy for cancer or AIDS. Important note here- some herbs do contain actual healing effects, and that I do believe in. But these people were focused primarily on one thing- that metaphysical forces were the only "option" to heal their daughter. It's just as negligent as putting her in a room full of mousetraps and leaving her for a day, claiming that God's divine agenda will keep her in place and safe from harm. Shame on these people.

I agree with you. Holistic medicine is used primarily in cases where the body already has the potential to heal itself. That's why you don't hear people touting herbal therapy for cancer or AIDS. Important note here- some herbs do contain actual healing effects, and that I do believe in. But these people were focused primarily on one thing- that metaphysical forces were the only "option" to heal their daughter. It's just as negligent as putting her in a room full of mousetraps and leaving her for a day, claiming that God's divine agenda will keep her in place and safe from harm. Shame on these people.
Yep. I've used herbal remedies. Some plants contain effective medicines. I wouldn't try to treat a severe bacterial infection with them. Antibiotics are much more effective. Relying on prayer to treat such a disease is crazy.

Hell, even getting their hands on those antibiotics would have taken a few days, at least. Waiting room lines are as long as ever, same goes for pharmacy lines, and I HIGHLY doubt that they would get antibiotics in time on their own, anyway.

Hell, even getting their hands on those antibiotics would have taken a few days, at least. Waiting room lines are as long as ever, same goes for pharmacy lines, and I HIGHLY doubt that they would get antibiotics in time on their own, anyway.
Emergency room would have treated the kid in a few hours tops.

And you believe that?
why not?

It is spiritless to think that you cannot attain to that which you have seen and heard the masters attain. The masters are men. You are also a man. If you think that you will be inferior in doing something, you will be on that road very soon
. Master lttei said , "Confucius was a sage because he had the will to become a scholar when he was fifteen years old. He was not a sage because he studied later on." This is the same as the Buddhist maxim, "First intention, then enlightenment.''

-Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo

why not?

It is spiritless to think that you cannot attain to that which you have seen and heard the masters attain. The masters are men. You are also a man. If you think that you will be inferior in doing something, you will be on that road very soon
. Master lttei said , "Confucius was a sage because he had the will to become a scholar when he was fifteen years old. He was not a sage because he studied later on." This is the same as the Buddhist maxim, "First intention, then enlightenment.''

-Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Ok, the posting of cryptic quotes has gotten past the point of annoying.

Why not? Because there is no real evidence for it. Just written accounts by people pushing an ideology that is supported by the supposed miracle. Look at Kim Jong Il's North Korea. Their news reports often state that some miracle has occured at his birthplace or in his presence. Until it's proven it's more reasonable to assume that it's just propaganda used to make people believe a certain way.

A couple who prayed over their sick baby instead of getting it to a doctor for antibiotics that would have saved it's life have been convicted of reckless homicide, but their sentence is only a year of work release for each "parent".

Why is it that these people who recklessly caused the death of their child are treated any differently just because their motivation was superstition rather than crack addiction? If a couple of crackheads let their baby die rather than get it medical attention they'd do hard time.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8933152/

Superstition? Do remember that YOU are the minority. A large majority of the world belives in some kind of religion, the superstitious people are the ones who don't belive.

And they are serving time, because they deserve it, what's your point? If you want to sit there yap up a storm like a lap-dog when the door bell rings, just keep pretending that choosing to abuse drugs while watching children is the equivalent to people that believe in home birthing and holistic treatment.
If your infant dies because you're reading this: http://www.bizrate.com/buy/noncat_prod_details__oid--181074475.html

I think I have to reconsider my stance on the death penalty. That shitty book is about as useful as praying when an anti-biotic is needed. If God does exist, he has bigger fish to fry than a couple's domestic matter.

Thank FSM I was born in a civilised country!

Wonder if the couple has learned anything from this.

Thank FSM I was born in a civilised country!

Wonder if the couple has learned anything from this.
I'm sure the couple is going to commit ritual suicide for their failure to connect with God.

Superstition? Do remember that YOU are the minority. A large majority of the world belives in some kind of religion, the superstitious people are the ones who don't belive.
Superstition involves belief in supernatural forces. Not belief in unpopular ideas.

Superstition? Do remember that YOU are the minority. A large majority of the world belives in some kind of religion, the superstitious people are the ones who don't belive.
Majority? A majority of people sit back in self-righteous indignation while those around them wither and die due to their inactivity?

...

Actually, you're right.

... Fuck.

Perhaps they could ask Andrew Stimpson. Although he's probably not religious (being gay)..

Superstition involves belief in supernatural forces. Not belief in unpopular ideas.

I suppose you could call us a "substition."

Ok, the posting of cryptic quotes has gotten past the point of annoying.

Why not? Because there is no real evidence for it. Just written accounts by people pushing an ideology that is supported by the supposed miracle. Look at Kim Jong Il's North Korea. Their news reports often state that some miracle has occured at his birthplace or in his presence. Until it's proven it's more reasonable to assume that it's just propaganda used to make people believe a certain way.

it's not my fault that Confucianism and Buddhism is above your level of comprehension. as for the proving of miracles, that's one of the reason the Vatican has very well-educated investigators who study such, phenomenon. it is very rare that the Church actually endorses a miracle of vision because they put the whole encounter under such scrutiny. These investigators are some of the biggest scpetics you'll ever meet.

"Prayer Healing" has no scientific founding that it cures physical ailments. However, it can in theory have psychosomatic effects. Prayer may help a persons mental state while sick, and it is proven that those who are in a better state of mind can help their own recovery.

it's not my fault that Confucianism and Buddhism is above your level of comprehension. as for the proving of miracles, that's one of the reason the Vatican has very well-educated investigators who study such, phenomenon. it is very rare that the Church actually endorses a miracle of vision because they put the whole encounter under such scrutiny. These investigators are some of the biggest scpetics you'll ever meet.
I think a bigger skeptic would be someone who didn't come with the belief that miracles occur.

Superstition? Do remember that YOU are the minority. A large majority of the world belives in some kind of religion, the superstitious people are the ones who don't belive.
That is so fundamentally incorrect I won't post the dictionary definition of superstitious.

I think a bigger skeptic would be someone who didn't come with the belief that miracles occur.

ever see Stigmata? there really are preists out there that do that.

I thought excessively lenient sentences were a British thing.

locking them up wont help them they will cling to there beliefs and feel this is some form of test by god if we dont want this to happen to them again we need to get them to a shrink to explain to them that god is the guiding force not the person who cures your child specifically the lord uses a docters hand as his tool to save people. and the pray for getting better without some medicine will only theoretically work in the same manner being lied to about asprin will.

I believe in the power of both prayer and medical science. God can have a hand in both. I don't think it wrong of them to resort to praying, and I in fact find it quite comforting to know there's still those who rely on their faith in God's power. However, I think it would have been much wiser of them to have recognized God's miraculous power through the hands of doctors.

I don't think they should be punished. I'm sure the loss of their child is punishment enough for them mentally and spiritually, and I hope that perhaps they can now recognize power in medicine.

locking them up wont help them they will cling to there beliefs and feel this is some form of test by god if we dont want this to happen to them again we need to get them to a shrink to explain to them that god is the guiding force not the person who cures your child specifically the lord uses a docters hand as his tool to save people. and the pray for getting better without some medicine will only theoretically work in the same manner being lied to about asprin will.

At this point it's not about teaching them- it's about punishing them, with a secondary, optional objective of teaching them. I think a court-ordered castration would be necessary for this kind of plea bargain that they accepted though. Great way for a judge to get out there while there's still open seats on the Supreme Court.

it's not my fault that Confucianism and Buddhism is above your level of comprehension. as for the proving of miracles, that's one of the reason the Vatican has very well-educated investigators who study such, phenomenon. it is very rare that the Church actually endorses a miracle of vision because they put the whole encounter under such scrutiny. These investigators are some of the biggest scpetics you'll ever meet.

You do realise that quoting a religous text to prove the truth of the same religion is circular logic don't you?

A story that makes the Christian logic on this rather clear (Old but meaningful)

A man is trapped, alone on a sinking ship with no functioning radio and no flares, no way to get help. So he prays "God please resque me". A few minutes later another boat came along beside him and tossed him a life line but he declined, saying "God will save me". He kept on praying. A few minutes later a helicopter landed next to his boat and offerd him a lift out, but he declined saying "God will save me". He kept praying. An hour or so later a sea plane lands and the pilot offers to resque him but he decines, saying "God will save me". Then the boat sinks, and the man enters heaven and asks "God why didnt you save me?" and God replies "I sent a boat, a plane and a helicopter, what more do you want!"

A story that makes the Christian logic on this rather clear (Old but meaningful)

A man is trapped, alone on a sinking ship with no functioning radio and no flares, no way to get help. So he prays "God please resque me". A few minutes later another boat came along beside him and tossed him a life line but he declined, saying "God will save me". He kept on praying. A few minutes later a helicopter landed next to his boat and offerd him a lift out, but he declined saying "God will save me". He kept praying. An hour or so later a sea plane lands and the pilot offers to resque him but he decines, saying "God will save me". Then the boat sinks, and the man enters heaven and asks "God why didnt you save me?" and God replies "I sent a boat, a plane and a helicopter, what more do you want!"

A very apt analogy....
Personally, I feel the couple ought to be tried for serious neglect. To assume that they did something to help the child as they were praying after all is the equivalent of assuming it is ok to only giving it homeopathic medicine for meningitis. It is not enough that they believed. They are adults, they should have known better.
Otherwise, they are not displaying enough responsibility to take care of a child.

it's not my fault that Confucianism and Buddhism is above your level of comprehension. as for the proving of miracles, that's one of the reason the Vatican has very well-educated investigators who study such, phenomenon. it is very rare that the Church actually endorses a miracle of vision because they put the whole encounter under such scrutiny. These investigators are some of the biggest scpetics you'll ever meet.
You're jumping to the conclusion that I'm too dumb to understand those religions. Maybe I'm just smart enough to see that your quotes are a bunch of meaningless, fictional mumbo jumbo and you're not.

You're jumping to the conclusion that I'm too dumb to understand those religions. Maybe I'm just smart enough to see that your quotes are a bunch of meaningless, fictional mumbo jumbo and you're not.

I have to agree again with you, commies. Freeunitedstates your arguments make no sense. There is no room in modern medicine for spirituality. It's all harsh antacids, viagra, and penicillin. Maybe you can meditate under a tree the next time you get the flu and see what good it does you.

I have to agree again with you, commies. Freeunitedstates your arguments make no sense. There is no room in modern medicine for spirituality. It's all harsh antacids, viagra, and penicillin. Maybe you can meditate under a tree the next time you get the flu and see what good it does you.

It is not an emperically medical cure since it does not always work, but there are occations when it does work without any human intervention.

Sure we can. A three month old fetus and a baby aren't the same thing. Just like Terri Schiavo and a functional human being weren't the same. Starving Terri was not wrong. Starving a person who is conscious of the fact that you're killing him or her is.
Um, if a man was in a coma, almost SURE (220-1) to come out in a few weeks, but his family kills him, now he is no longer a burden. Abortion defenders who do not say this is perfectly alright are deceiving themselves.

A couple who prayed over their sick baby instead of getting it to a doctor for antibiotics that would have saved it's life have been convicted of reckless homicide, but their sentence is only a year of work release for each "parent".

Why is it that these people who recklessly caused the death of their child are treated any differently just because their motivation was superstition rather than crack addiction? If a couple of crackheads let their baby die rather than get it medical attention they'd do hard time.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8933152/
Besides greenlanders little attempt to sidetrack the topic

I think they should be punished to the full extent of the law
If a person is too dumb to figure out
doctors = good
When a kid is sick should NEVER be allowed to be in posesion of a kid

Um, if a man was in a coma, almost SURE (220-1) to come out in a few weeks, but his family kills him, now he is no longer a burden. Abortion defenders who do not say this is perfectly alright are deceiving themselves.
There is only one small flaw in your argument. There exists some evidence that a comatose person is aware.

New research suggests that in fact comatose patients can register what is going on around them but are unable to respond in usual ways. Their expressive behaviors are limited to behavioral fragments and minimal cues.

from http://www.processwork.org/Coma.htm

If so, then it's different from destroying an early term fetus or an adult who's brain is mostly dead tissue.

It is not an emperically medical cure since it does not always work, but there are occations when it does work without any human intervention.
Really? Has anyone ever checked whether or not it's just the body's natural healing power or whether it's actually an effect of prayer? Even if prayer works every once in a while, should the parents be forgiven for taking that big of a risk and killing her?

Really? Has anyone ever checked whether or not it's just the body's natural healing power or whether it's actually an effect of prayer? Even if prayer works every once in a while, should the parents be forgiven for taking that big of a risk and killing her?
Yeah the only studies that "prove" prayer have had MASSIVE statistical flaws in them

Everything from misrepresenting error rates to confidence levels

Yeah the only studies that "prove" prayer have had MASSIVE statistical flaws in them

Everything from misrepresenting error rates to confidence levels

I haven't heard that. I did read about one that unblinded their results, found no correlation, then tried to reblind them and searched through various different possible "improvements" until they found one that correlated with prayer. This one got thrown out though, I believe....

I haven't heard that. I did read about one that unblinded their results, found no correlation, then tried to reblind them and searched through various different possible "improvements" until they found one that correlated with prayer. This one got thrown out though, I believe....
Ill try to find them ... they were kind of old but the only thing I saw of the type
Things such as un-accounted for error and such

In one of them they "forgot" to state one of the predictors so that the error was a lot lower then it would have been regressed against only prayer

(that and a lot of forgeting to account for placebo effect)

Really? Has anyone ever checked whether or not it's just the body's natural healing power or whether it's actually an effect of prayer? Even if prayer works every once in a while, should the parents be forgiven for taking that big of a risk and killing her?

I agree they should be prosecuted, but I dont think that this case is evidence enough to say "prayer doesnt work"

I agree they should be prosecuted, but I dont think that this case is evidence enough to say "prayer doesnt work"
No but you got to go with what has statisticaly been shown to work

Now if you want to pray for the kid while doing the responsible thing by geting a doctor more power to you

But dont neglect the proven tried and true method to do one you only believe will work

Its a baby's life you are gambling with

In case you don't know me, I'll clarify for you, I don't approve of ANY abortions. My point was sarcasm in advance for those that do approve of abortions and are getting ready to condemn this couple because they had a home delivery but that the child died within two days...Abortion defenders can hardly say a word about this.

Bullshit.

You are the one caught in a quandry. You would deny the right to abortion for embryos that are only a few weeks old, but apparently defend the killing of a 2-day old child on the basis of "faith."

I have never seen anyone on these forums -- nor do the laws of any state -- defend an abortion beyond the second trimester for any reason other than the life or health of the mother.

On the other hand, here the child was no threat to anyone's rights and died due to the reckless behavior of its parents.

No but you got to go with what has statisticaly been shown to work

Now if you want to pray for the kid while doing the responsible thing by geting a doctor more power to you

But dont neglect the proven tried and true method to do one you only believe will work

Its a baby's life you are gambling with

I agree with you, and have posted a story to this effect earlier

A man is trapped, alone on a sinking ship with no functioning radio and no flares, no way to get help. So he prays "God please resque me". A few minutes later another boat came along beside him and tossed him a life line but he declined, saying "God will save me". He kept on praying. A few minutes later a helicopter landed next to his boat and offerd him a lift out, but he declined saying "God will save me". He kept praying. An hour or so later a sea plane lands and the pilot offers to resque him but he decines, saying "God will save me". Then the boat sinks, and the man enters heaven and asks "God why didnt you save me?" and God replies "I sent a boat, a plane and a helicopter, what more do you want!"

You have a point, there is a big difference between them, the couple here didn't kill their child on purpose.




What are you going to do next, incarcerate everyone that ever lost a child to SIDS?

I'm not even defending the couple, I'm only pointing out that the judge has a better grasp on the situation that your 'shock and horror' response does.

I'd almost agree with you, but you pulled a bait-and-switch.

These parents knowingly withheld medical treatment from their child. Those who lose I child to SIDS do so perfectly by accident.

You have yet to address DCD's point that a crackhead that neglected a baby would have acted less willfully but would likely be treated more harshly.

When crack heads are sent to prison for neglect (since you are not providing a case to compare I'll have to make one up) they neglect the baby until it starves, or the baby itself is a crack-addict itself and already suffering withdrawals etc In the end, though, the crack-head addicts did it on purpose via the results of criminal behavior.

Bullshit.

The crackheads allow their baby to die from neglect because the crackheads are distracted by their addiction.

Here, the parents did it on purpose. They deliberately denied medical care that could save their child's life.

Nice try. No cigar.

TCT,

Do you know of any of the legal precedent on this? It was my understanding that, for better or for worse, the courts have held that a parent could legally deny medical treatment for their child based on their own religous beliefs.

A couple who prayed over their sick baby instead of getting it to a doctor for antibiotics that would have saved it's life have been convicted of reckless homicide, but their sentence is only a year of work release for each "parent".

Why is it that these people who recklessly caused the death of their child are treated any differently just because their motivation was superstition rather than crack addiction? If a couple of crackheads let their baby die rather than get it medical attention they'd do hard time.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8933152/

Jail them, and jail them long

Nice to know that you approve of getting rid of "defective" babies. I'm glad you weren't around when I was born.

That's a hard topic, intresting, but hard.
Should one abort a child if the child is known to have serious handicaps that will hinder it extremely in life?
Case in point, that kid that was born with almost no facial bones.
See http://www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk/misc/juliannawetmore.html

Hell, even getting their hands on those antibiotics would have taken a few days, at least. Waiting room lines are as long as ever, same goes for pharmacy lines, and I HIGHLY doubt that they would get antibiotics in time on their own, anyway.

Where the hell do you live?!

Superstition? Do remember that YOU are the minority. A large majority of the world belives in some kind of religion, the superstitious people are the ones who don't belive.

Now there's an oxymoron if i ever saw one....
Because you don't believe you are supersticious.... Hah!

I believe in the power of both prayer and medical science. God can have a hand in both. I don't think it wrong of them to resort to praying, and I in fact find it quite comforting to know there's still those who rely on their faith in God's power. However, I think it would have been much wiser of them to have recognized God's miraculous power through the hands of doctors.

I don't think they should be punished. I'm sure the loss of their child is punishment enough for them mentally and spiritually, and I hope that perhaps they can now recognize power in medicine.

:eek: :confused: :headbang:

They neglected the kid, be it out of religious or other nature they did neglict it

I believe in the power of both prayer and medical science. God can have a hand in both. I don't think it wrong of them to resort to praying, and I in fact find it quite comforting to know there's still those who rely on their faith in God's power. However, I think it would have been much wiser of them to have recognized God's miraculous power through the hands of doctors.

I don't think they should be punished. I'm sure the loss of their child is punishment enough for them mentally and spiritually, and I hope that perhaps they can now recognize power in medicine.
Whatever made them decide the way they did is not material they chose to not seek medical help when it was the obvious choice
They should have contacted someone else if the choice of geting medical help was beyond them

They were responsable for the kid and it died through a concious choice of theirs to neglect redily avaliable help

A couple who prayed over their sick baby instead of getting it to a doctor for antibiotics that would have saved it's life have been convicted of reckless homicide, but their sentence is only a year of work release for each "parent".

Why is it that these people who recklessly caused the death of their child are treated any differently just because their motivation was superstition rather than crack addiction? If a couple of crackheads let their baby die rather than get it medical attention they'd do hard time.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8933152/
Damn crazy christians.

I think that it is admirable of these parents to stick to their faith regardless of circumstances.

I might also add that you have no right to judge these people. The pain of losing a child should be punishment enough, without people who don't know them or their backgrounds or really what was going on, condemming them every step of the way. It's their religion and if that's what they believe I wish them all the best. They did what they believed to be right and it is noones place to tell them that they were right or wrong. There is a reason for everything. You've just got to wait for the bigger picture.

I think that it is admirable of these parents to stick to their faith regardless of circumstances.

I might also add that you have no right to judge these people. The pain of losing a child should be punishment enough, without people who don't know them or their backgrounds or really what was going on, condemming them every step of the way. It's their religion and if that's what they believe I wish them all the best. They did what they believed to be right and it is noones place to tell them that they were right or wrong. There is a reason for everything. You've just got to wait for the bigger picture.

Hey you commit the crime you do the time. They were convicted, and have to deal with it.

Yeah, and they are doing the time, so there's no need for us to get our knickers or whatever in a twist about it and continue harping on about it.

Just leave them alone already.

I think that it is admirable of these parents to stick to their faith regardless of circumstances.

I might also add that you have no right to judge these people. The pain of losing a child should be punishment enough, without people who don't know them or their backgrounds or really what was going on, condemming them every step of the way. It's their religion and if that's what they believe I wish them all the best. They did what they believed to be right and it is noones place to tell them that they were right or wrong. There is a reason for everything. You've just got to wait for the bigger picture.
Is the pain of losing a child punishment enough to the crackhead who neglects his kids? Why do the religious get a break when the crack addicted do not? Their actions result in the same harm being done, but at least the crackhead has a medical excuse.

Yeah, and they are doing the time, so there's no need for us to get our knickers or whatever in a twist about it and continue harping on about it.

Just leave them alone already.
They're doing a year in work release. They don't even show up at a prison. My buddy Hoop was in work release when I met him. He had to live in a group home and had a curfew, but otherwise was free to do whatever he wanted so long as he kept a job and didn't fail his piss test. WTF? That's all you get for letting your kid die?

I think that it is admirable of these parents to stick to their faith regardless of circumstances.

I might also add that you have no right to judge these people. The pain of losing a child should be punishment enough, without people who don't know them or their backgrounds or really what was going on, condemming them every step of the way. It's their religion and if that's what they believe I wish them all the best. They did what they believed to be right and it is noones place to tell them that they were right or wrong. There is a reason for everything. You've just got to wait for the bigger picture.

We don't have the right to judge these people? They sat there waiting to see their kid die slowly *WITHOUT* consulting a doc, you know what i call that? Neglect.
Is it admireable that they let a child die out of faith? Hell no, what's next? bonfires & witchhunts? The second coming of the inqiusition?

The bigger picture here is that the kid died needlessly, they let it die, they did not use common sence & consulted a doc, they did not react when they saw that their prayers didn't work....

People like this shouldn't be allowed within 100 metres of a child (or anything that might depend on them for survival, such as pets)

They're doing a year in work release. They don't even show up at a prison. My buddy Hoop was in work release when I met him. He had to live in a group home and had a curfew, but otherwise was free to do whatever he wanted so long as he kept a job and didn't fail his piss test. WTF? That's all you get for letting your kid die?

Only if you were praying

I think that it is admirable of these parents to stick to their faith regardless of circumstances.

I might also add that you have no right to judge these people. The pain of losing a child should be punishment enough, without people who don't know them or their backgrounds or really what was going on, condemming them every step of the way. It's their religion and if that's what they believe I wish them all the best. They did what they believed to be right and it is noones place to tell them that they were right or wrong. There is a reason for everything. You've just got to wait for the bigger picture.
They have no right to subject a dependent to their religion, especially if principles of their "religion" are inherently criminally neglectful.

I think that it is admirable of these parents to stick to their faith regardless of circumstances.

I might also add that you have no right to judge these people. The pain of losing a child should be punishment enough, without people who don't know them or their backgrounds or really what was going on, condemming them every step of the way. It's their religion and if that's what they believe I wish them all the best. They did what they believed to be right and it is noones place to tell them that they were right or wrong. There is a reason for everything. You've just got to wait for the bigger picture.
Its no better then a drug addicted parent not thinking that a kid needs to be fed

They are compleatly responsable and so are the people that make idiodic decisions like not taking your kid (your responsibility) to a doctor
Even my 4 y ear old cousin knows to call 911 when someone is hurt and cant take care of themselfs

That is dispicable and should be punishable

Only if you were praying

And thus we see the true power of prayer, a reduced jail sentance. Convert today people, save your souls and your behinds.

ahh yes another solid proof of the power of religious Looneyism

You're jumping to the conclusion that I'm too dumb to understand those religions. Maybe I'm just smart enough to see that your quotes are a bunch of meaningless, fictional mumbo jumbo and you're not.

There is nothing outside the thought of the immediate moment.

Learning is a good thing, but more often it leads to mistakes. It is like the admonition of the priest Konan. It is worthwhile just looking at the deeds of accomplished persons for the purpose of knowing our own insufficiencies. But often this does not happen. For the most part, we admire our own opinions and become fond of arguing.

Being superior to others is nothing other than having people talk about your affairs and listening to their opinions. The general run of people settle for their own opinions and thus never excel. Having a discussion with a person is one step in excelling him, A certain person discussed with me the written materials at the clan office. He is better than someone like me in writing and researching. In seeking correction from others, you excel them.

When discussing things with someone, it is best to speak appropriately about whatever the subject may be. No matter how good what you are saying might be, it will dampen the conversation if it is irrelevant.
-Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo

There is nothing outside the thought of the immediate moment.

Learning is a good thing, but more often it leads to mistakes. It is like the admonition of the priest Konan. It is worthwhile just looking at the deeds of accomplished persons for the purpose of knowing our own insufficiencies. But often this does not happen. For the most part, we admire our own opinions and become fond of arguing.

Being superior to others is nothing other than having people talk about your affairs and listening to their opinions. The general run of people settle for their own opinions and thus never excel. Having a discussion with a person is one step in excelling him, A certain person discussed with me the written materials at the clan office. He is better than someone like me in writing and researching. In seeking correction from others, you excel them.

When discussing things with someone, it is best to speak appropriately about whatever the subject may be. No matter how good what you are saying might be, it will dampen the conversation if it is irrelevant.
-Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Take your own advice

Well, Hagakure also teaches that once it is seen that no victory can be achieved, that it is best to remain as it was, and to withdraw. Therefore, I end my speeches now. It was my greatest honor to have such a debate with you, and I hope you can reciprocate this. May you have such luck in all your endeavors, for I truly am vanquished and am all the more honored for it.

Peace be with you!:D

Well, Hagakure also teaches that once it is seen that no victory can be achieved, that it is best to remain as it was, and to withdraw. Therefore, I end my speeches now. It was my greatest honor to have such a debate with you, and I hope you can reciprocate this. May you have such luck in all your endeavors, for I truly am vanquished and am all the more honored for it.

Peace be with you!:D
I hope to talk to you again, hopefully using our own words rather than ancient quotes. It would be interesting in the future to hear from you what you actually believe. Later bro.

There is nothing outside the thought of the immediate moment.

Learning is a good thing, but more often it leads to mistakes. It is like the admonition of the priest Konan. It is worthwhile just looking at the deeds of accomplished persons for the purpose of knowing our own insufficiencies. But often this does not happen. For the most part, we admire our own opinions and become fond of arguing.

Being superior to others is nothing other than having people talk about your affairs and listening to their opinions. The general run of people settle for their own opinions and thus never excel. Having a discussion with a person is one step in excelling him, A certain person discussed with me the written materials at the clan office. He is better than someone like me in writing and researching. In seeking correction from others, you excel them.

When discussing things with someone, it is best to speak appropriately about whatever the subject may be. No matter how good what you are saying might be, it will dampen the conversation if it is irrelevant.
-Hagakure, Yamamoto Tsunetomo

STOP QUOTING CRAP

I wonder if I would get away with raping a 4 year old in the name of my religion ... me thinks not

But somehow it is right for them to let them die of very potentialy preventable illnesses through their idiocy

I think that it is admirable of these parents to stick to their faith regardless of circumstances.

I might also add that you have no right to judge these people. The pain of losing a child should be punishment enough, without people who don't know them or their backgrounds or really what was going on, condemming them every step of the way. It's their religion and if that's what they believe I wish them all the best. They did what they believed to be right and it is noones place to tell them that they were right or wrong. There is a reason for everything. You've just got to wait for the bigger picture.

The ancient Aztecs thought they were doing the right thing when they sacrificed human beings to their gods. Does that make murder ok?

The people in Salem thought they were right when they hung and pressed 10 people and a dog for witchcraft. Does that make it right?

The people who followed David Koresh thought it was right to give him their 9 year old daughters to have sex with and to hoarde weapons in their complex. Did that make it right?

Look guys, I'm not here to make anemies of you all.
Infact, I like to pride myself on being an alround nice gal.
BUT! I do feel that I should defend my brother and sister when people attack them without knowing them, when all they did was place their faith in God rather than science. I really can't see anything wrong with that. What if they had taken the child to a doctor, and that had led to it's death, whereas God might have been able to help the child? People would have judged them then for taking the child to a bad doctor. You can't win in this society which is so full of judgments and prejudice against other people. What ever you do, people will always have a problem with it.
I also feel that alot of people seem to be judging everyone of my faith because of these people.
Not all Christians are the same. I would not kill someone, I would not EVER abort a baby. I just can't do stuff like that. I'm not a bad person, just because I'm a Christian. And these people are not bad people just because they believed that a higher power would cure their child. If they TRULY believed that the baby would be cured by God, which I feel they did, then they had no reason to take it to a doctor. They thought that it would be ok.
Perhaps they had been brought up to believe that. You get closed off communities of extreme cults, people aren't allowed to leave etc etc.

Anyway, what I actually just wanted to say was that I can't change your mind and you can't change mine. So there's no point in me coming on here and getting stressed at you. Everyone has an opinion. You've expressed yours, and I've expressed mine. Obviously I'm going to be biased, so is everyone. But I think that we can try to keep it civil and not insult the whole religion based on the actions of two people.

BUT! I do feel that I should defend my brother and sister when people attack them without knowing them, when all they did was place their faith in God rather than science.

Why do people always act like there is some sort of direct opposition between God and science? One can be a very faithful person and still use the knowledge that God gives us....

I really can't see anything wrong with that. What if they had taken the child to a doctor, and that had led to it's death, whereas God might have been able to help the child?

This is a false dichotomy. If God could directly help the child, and was going to, it wouldn't matter if they went to a doctor or not. Of course, one could argue that God works through doctors....

People would have judged them then for taking the child to a bad doctor.

Only if they knew the doctor was "bad". If they didn't know, and trusted the doctor to do his job, and he was negligent, it would be the doctor who was blamed. If everyone did everything they could to save the child, and nothing worked, no one would be blamed.

I also feel that alot of people seem to be judging everyone of my faith because of these people.
Not all Christians are the same.

Of course we aren't. If we were, we'd have to be clones of each other or something.

And these people are not bad people just because they believed that a higher power would cure their child. If they TRULY believed that the baby would be cured by God, which I feel they did, then they had no reason to take it to a doctor. They thought that it would be ok.

If I truly believe that sacrificing an infant on a fire will bring world peace, then I have no reason to not do it. However, we would still punish someone who sacrificed an infant on a fire.

In this case, these people neglected their child. They didn't do everything they could to help their ailing child. They could have gone to a doctor and prayed. But they didn't. And even as things got worse, they just kept praying.

While I understand the danger of going down this road, I tend to think that people with such beliefs should apply them to themselves and only themselves, not their children. This infant didn't believe in their religion, but died because of it. A three-year old doesn't understand the significance of snake-handling, while an adult can. And so on.....

Edit: A person who neglects their child because of their religious beliefs has still committed neglect. What if my religion told me that my child had to get breastmilk? However, the doctor informed me that my child was a PKU patient and could not ingest phenylalanine. Ingesting phenylalanine would cause my child to be severely mentally retarded and eventually die. I continue my diet as normal and feed the infant breastmilk. My infant dies. Am I any less responsible for having believed I should do it?

Not all Christians are the same.

Don't believe her lies!!! They are. Rather than reproducing in the usual manner Christians bud asexually, with a genetically identical mini-Christian growing off the back of the parent's head. Once the bud has grown to the size of a small carrot it splits off and goes in search of a victim. After forcing itself down the victim's throat they mature in the stomach before chewing their way out after about 10 weeks. They then consume the genetic matter of the dead host and assume their identity but they're all really the same!!! Nobody ever converts, they're just chosen as hosts for the mini-Christians!!! Run for the hills!!! They're coming for you!!!!

P.S. All of this has been confirmed to be 100% true by five pink elephants and a box of corn flakes called Elmo.

Don't believe his lies!!!

This is rather off topic, but....
It should be 'her' lies. I am not, and never have been (at least I hope not) a male entity of any kind.

Yes, I am an annoying feminist type. Well, no actually, I'm not really.
But all the same. I am female.

This is rather off topic, but....
It should be 'her' lies. I am not, and never have been (at least I hope not) a male entity of any kind.

Yes, I am an annoying feminist type. Well, no actually, I'm not really.
But all the same. I am female.

Rather than reproducing in the usual manner Christians bud asexually

What did I just tell you about all Christians being completely Asexual? You can't fool me and Elmo....

A couple who prayed over their sick baby instead of getting it to a doctor for antibiotics that would have saved it's life have been convicted of reckless homicide, but their sentence is only a year of work release for each "parent".

Why is it that these people who recklessly caused the death of their child are treated any differently just because their motivation was superstition rather than crack addiction? If a couple of crackheads let their baby die rather than get it medical attention they'd do hard time.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8933152/

First off, I am offended that you called my belief "supersistion". You do not know how offencive that is, you can not back that up AT ALL, so you have no right to make such an insult. I dont insult YOU for being an aethiest. I dont say your "bad" or your beliefs are "supersition".

Secondly, I think that they should have taken the baby to the hospital, then pray. You were right to say that they arent the brightest people there are, however, I can sort of understand why their sentense was cut short.

They had good intent, they truley and honestly thought God would cure their baby. And, in my eyes, prayer had a chance. I mean, put it this way. What if they had droven TO the hospital but got lost along the way. Would you think they should do hard time?

Too bad they already had two other kids. People stupid enough to do that shouldn't pass their genes on to the next generation. Hopefully the other kids realize how loony their parents are and get the hell out as soon as they can.

Prayer healing only works when a person has the biological capacity to heal themselves given enough emotional and psychological encouragement.

Babies don't have that trait.

Perhaps the Church'll get sued for not making this information common knowledge. Who knows? Would that be surprising?
Actually, in a number of studies, prayer has been found to have no effect on the sick.

First off, I am offended that you called my belief "supersistion". You do not know how offencive that is, you can not back that up AT ALL, so you have no right to make such an insult. I dont insult YOU for being an aethiest. I dont say your "bad" or your beliefs are "supersition".

Secondly, I think that they should have taken the baby to the hospital, then pray. You were right to say that they arent the brightest people there are, however, I can sort of understand why their sentense was cut short.

They had good intent, they truley and honestly thought God would cure their baby. And, in my eyes, prayer had a chance. I mean, put it this way. What if they had droven TO the hospital but got lost along the way. Would you think they should do hard time?

While I agree he could have been less offensive Atheism is, generally speaking, not superstitious. Superstition is the belief in supernatural (i.e. things not governed by science) and the majority of Atheists don't beleive in the supernatural.

And in response to your analogy, suppose a couple's religion forbade blood transfusions and organ donation. Should they be able to deny blood transfusions to their child if they're in an accident.

Actually, in a number of studies, prayer has been found to have no effect on the sick.

Studies have found however that people with more prayer do better than people with less.

http://nccam.nih.gov/news/newsletter/2005_winter/prayer.htm

And anyway, nowhere in the Bible does it say that God will answer all prayers "yes". It says he will answer them, but not always the way you want.

While I agree he could have been less offensive Atheism is, generally speaking, not superstitious. Superstition is the belief in supernatural (i.e. things not governed by science) and the majority of Atheists don't beleive in the supernatural.


Athiests believe in a lack of the supernatual, but this is itself a religious belief since it can only be adhered to by faith as it is impossible to prove.