NationStates Jolt Archive


American politics: it would be funny, if it weren't so consequential!

Eutrusca
19-11-2005, 15:08
COMMENTARY: American politics; love it or hate it, you gotta admit that it's fun to watch! The problem this time, though, is that lives are at stake. I don't think referring to each other as "cowrds" or "pathetic" is very productive. Sigh! :(


Uproar in House as Parties Clash on Iraq Pullout (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/19/national/19military.html?th&emc=th)


By ERIC SCHMITT
Published: November 19, 2005
WASHINGTON, Nov. 18 - Republicans and Democrats shouted, howled and slung insults on the House floor on Friday as a debate over whether to withdraw American troops from Iraq descended into a fury over President Bush's handling of the war and a leading Democrat's call to bring the troops home.

The battle boiled over when Representative Jean Schmidt, an Ohio Republican who is the most junior member of the House, told of a phone call she had just received from a Marine colonel back home.

"He asked me to send Congress a message: stay the course," Ms. Schmidt said. "He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message: that cowards cut and run, Marines never do."

Democrats booed in protest and shouted Ms. Schmidt down in her attack on Representative John P. Murtha of Pennsylvania, a Vietnam combat veteran and one of the House's most respected members on military matters. They caused the House to come to an abrupt standstill, and moments later, Representative Harold Ford, Democrat of Tennessee, charged across the chamber's center aisle to the Republican side screaming that Ms. Schmidt's attack had been unwarranted.

"You guys are pathetic!" yelled Representative Martin Meehan, Democrat of Massachusetts. "Pathetic."

The measure to withdraw the troops failed in a 403-to-3 vote late Friday night.

The rancorous debate drew an extraordinary scolding from Senator John W. Warner, the Virginia Republican who heads the Armed Services Committee.

"Today's debate in the House of Representatives shows the need for bipartisanship on the war in Iraq, instead of more political posturing," Mr. Warner said in a statement.

But as the third hour of debate opened, with the House chamber mostly full on the eve of the Thanksgiving recess, even two senior Republicans, Henry Hyde of Illinois and Curt Weldon of Pennsylvania, tried to temper the personal nature of the confrontation by offering tributes to Mr. Murtha. "I give him an A-plus as a truly great American," Mr. Hyde said.

Then Mr. Murtha, who normally shuns publicity, gave an impassioned 15-minute plea for his plan to withdraw American troops, who he said had become "a catalyst for violence" in Iraq. The American people, Mr. Murtha thundered, are "thirsty for some direction; they're thirsty for a solution to this problem."

The uproar followed days of mounting tension between Republicans and Democrats in which the political debate over the war sharply intensified. With Mr. Bush's popularity dropping in the polls, Democrats have sought anew to portray him as having exaggerated the threat posed by Iraq before the American invasion in 2003. Republicans have countered that Democrats were equally at fault.

The battle came as Democrats accused Republicans of pulling a political stunt by moving toward a vote on a symbolic alternative to the resolution that Mr. Murtha offered on Thursday, calling for the swift withdrawal of American troops. Democrats said the ploy distorted the meaning of Mr. Murtha's measure and left little time for meaningful debate.

Speaker J. Dennis Hastert, Republican of Illinois, denied that there were any political tricks involved and said pulling forces out of Iraq so rashly would hurt troop morale overseas. "We want to make sure that we support our troops that are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan," he said.

The measure's fate was sealed - and the vote count's significance minimized - when the Democratic leader, Representative Nancy Pelosi of California, criticized the Republican tactics and instructed Democrats to join Republicans in voting against an immediate withdrawal.

"Just when you thought you'd seen it all, the Republicans have stooped to new lows, even for them," said Ms. Pelosi, who assailed Republicans as impugning Mr. Murtha's patriotism.

The parliamentary maneuvering came amid more than three hours of often nasty floor debate and boisterous political theater, with Democrats accusing Republicans of resorting to desperate tactics to back a failed war and Republicans warning that Mr. Murtha's measure would play into the hands of terrorists.

In South Korea, where Mr. Bush was in the final day of the Asian economic summit, the White House released the text of a speech that he is scheduled to make later on Saturday to American forces at Osan Air Base.

"In Washington there are some who say that the sacrifice is too great, and they urge us to set a date for withdrawal before we have completed our mission," Mr. Bush planned to say, keeping up the daily drumbeat of White House response from 7,000 miles away. "Those who are in the fight know better. One of our top commanders in Iraq, Maj. Gen. William Webster, says that setting a deadline for our withdrawal from Iraq would be, quote, 'a recipe for disaster.' "

"General Webster is right," Mr. Bush's text said. "And so long as I am commander in chief, our strategy in Iraq will be driven by the sober judgment of our military commanders on the ground."

On Thursday, Mr. Murtha called for pulling out the 153,000 American troops within six months, saying they had become a catalyst for the continuing violence in Iraq. His plan also called for a quick-reaction force in the region, perhaps based in Kuwait, and for pursuing stability in Iraq through diplomacy.

But House Republicans planned to put to a vote - and reject - their own nonbinding alternative resolution that simply said: "It is the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately."

Democrats denounced the Republican measure as a fraud. But Democrats privately acknowledged that they were seeking to escape a political trap set by the Republicans to box them into an unappealing choice: side with Mr. Murtha and face criticism for backing a plan that American commanders say would cripple the mission in Iraq or oppose their respected colleague and blunt momentum for an overhaul of the administration's Iraq policy.

House Democrats greeted Mr. Murtha with a standing ovation on Friday as he entered the chamber.

"This is a personal attack on one of the best members, one of the most respected members of this House, and it is outrageous," said Representative Jim McGovern, Democrat of Massachusetts.

While some 70 liberal Democrats who support ending American military involvement in Iraq have praised Mr. Murtha's plan, many of his other party colleagues appeared to harbor doubts. To a member, Democrats said they respected the counsel of Mr. Murtha, a retired Marine colonel who has earned bipartisan respect in his three decades in Congress as a champion of American service members.

But many senior House Democrats, including Nancy Pelosi of California, the Democratic leader, have distanced themselves from Mr. Murtha's resolution, saying a phased withdrawal is a more prudent course. The House debate is likely to stoke an intensifying partisan debate on Capitol Hill over the administration's handling of the war, including how it used prewar intelligence to justify the invasion of Iraq.

Democrats, including Senators Carl Levin of Michigan and Jack Reed of Rhode Island, as well as Representative Jane Harman of California, the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, defended Mr. Murtha and gave examples of what they said were faulty intelligence.

The House action comes just days after the Republican-controlled Senate defeated a Democratic push to have Mr. Bush describe a timetable for withdrawal. Underscoring unease by both parties about the war, though, the Senate then approved a Republican statement that 2006 should be a year in which conditions were created for the Iraqi government to take over more security duties in the country and allow the United States to begin withdrawing.

Even as Republicans sought to make political hay from Mr. Murtha's plan, Democrats defended him as a patriot.

"I won't stand for the Swift-boating of Jack Murtha," said Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts, the Democratic presidential nominee in 2004. Mr. Kerry, who is also a Vietnam veteran, was dogged during the campaign by a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth that challenged his war record.
Safalra
19-11-2005, 16:14
Bah! We do it far better in Britain - there's a mace in the centre of the House Of Commons, and in one debate Conservatice MP Michael Heseltine became rather emotional and decided to attempt to use the mace for its original purpose. And we have a better way of starting closed sessions - an MP must shout 'I spy strangers!'.
Eutrusca
19-11-2005, 16:15
Bah! We do it far better in Britain - there's a mace in the centre of the House Of Commons, and in one debate Conservatice MP Michael Heseltine became rather emotional and decided to attempt to use the mace for its original purpose. And we have a better way of starting closed sessions - an MP must shout 'I spy strangers!'.
ROFL! I know. I've watced some of the sessions of The House of Commons on C-Span. They let each other have it on a regular basis. I suspect I would make a really good MP! :D
Beer and Guns
19-11-2005, 16:32
The Marine needs to answer to his brothers whos legs he attempted to cut out from under them in Iraq . Any lack of support from leaders in the US while the troops are active and engaged puts them in further danger emboldens the enemy and destroys morale . Murtha earned his right to speak the hard way and all I can say is he's wrong and I would have hoped he would know better. Cut and run is a disgrace and it reflects badly on the guy after a long and distiguished carreer ..I can only speculate that the emotional ordeal he had been through with wounded vets and family members of fallen military personel short circuited his brain . Reguardless he's a good and honorable man who earned his rights to speak up on the war the hard way and deserves more respect from the idiots in the house and senate who are not even worthy of the sweat on his balls .

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051119/NEWS06/511190510
Silliopolous
19-11-2005, 16:56
Well, true to form it seems that the WhiteHouse is getting ready to engage in the swift-boating of another veteran.

Murtha gave his opinion on the war honestly, respectfully, and in a very thoughtfull manner. Clearly people have the right to disagree with that opinion, but it is no longer the way things are done.

No, he gets called a coward, and - indeed - it has also been reported that some Republicans are calling for an ethics investigation into Murtha as an explicit retaliation for his stated opinion.


But hey, I'm glad that people find the politics of personal destruction "entertaining".....
NERVUN
19-11-2005, 16:56
I'd say something to the effect that I'd normally expect this from South Korea or Taiwan, but then I remembered which Congress we're dealing with and wondered what took them so long. ;)
Silliopolous
19-11-2005, 16:59
By the way, should the White House be screaming about the commander of the forces in Iraq (General Casey) "emboldening the enemy and direspecting his troops"?


I mean, it seems that HE just submitted a plan for the pullout of troops as well (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/11/18/iraq.plan/index.html)


Let me guess though - he won't get tarred with the same pile of manure... after all, he's a decorated soldier! A veteran! A hero!


Oh wait.....
The Nazz
19-11-2005, 17:05
I'm glad that this article noted that the resolution being argued and voted on yesterday was not the one Murtha put forward. And Harold Ford charging across the aisle--who knew he had that kind of emotion?
OntheRIGHTside
19-11-2005, 17:12
Didn't you ever realize that all politics is one big show? If you get too caught up you won't realize that you aren't doing anything.
German Nightmare
19-11-2005, 17:21
This could've been one of the few occasions where I wish I had U.S. telly. Other than watching the Daily Show, of course.
The Nazz
19-11-2005, 17:22
Didn't you ever realize that all politics is one big show? If you get too caught up you won't realize that you aren't doing anything.I'd feel a lot better about it if I thought our government wasn't actually doing anything.
Beer and Guns
19-11-2005, 19:30
Maybe one day this whole group of swollen assholes will act like they are worthy of the men and women who are out fighting and getting killed and wounded for them . The whole bunch are a disgrace .
Keruvalia
19-11-2005, 19:35
Meh .... compared to other governing bodies, the US House is boring as hell. Oh, sure, we get the occasional "Fuck you" said on the floor or a Senator will cane another over slavery (Charles Sumner), but all in all, we're dull.
Nadkor
19-11-2005, 21:15
COMMENTARY: American politics; love it or hate it, you gotta admit that it's fun to watch!
Nah, the Commons kicks its ass in the "fun to watch" stakes. Ever seen PM's Questions? Great fun.
Blu-tac
19-11-2005, 21:49
Bah! We do it far better in Britain - there's a mace in the centre of the House Of Commons, and in one debate Conservatice MP Michael Heseltine became rather emotional and decided to attempt to use the mace for its original purpose.

ye, well labour shouldn't have been singing socialist songs to him!

Nah, the Commons kicks its ass in the "fun to watch" stakes. Ever seen PM's Questions? Great fun.
did you see the one where tony blair got hit with a condom filled with purple flour? i knew a kid whose grandmother gave them tickets...
Nadkor
19-11-2005, 22:12
did you see the one where tony blair got hit with a condom filled with purple flour? i knew a kid whose grandmother gave them tickets...
Yup.