NationStates Jolt Archive

and another reenforcement that the mother church of Christianity deems ID to be about as scientific as ouija boards... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051118/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_evolution)


VATICAN CITY - The Vatican's chief astronomer said Friday that "intelligent design" isn't science and doesn't belong in science classrooms, the latest high-ranking Roman Catholic official to enter the evolution debate in the United States.

The Rev. George Coyne, the Jesuit director of the Vatican Observatory, said placing intelligent design theory alongside that of evolution in school programs was "wrong" and was akin to mixing apples with oranges.

"Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be," the ANSA news agency quoted Coyne as saying on the sidelines of a conference in Florence. "If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science


Of course, after reading the release the only thing that jumped out at me was.... The Vatican has a Chief Astronomer?!?!?!?!?!?

WTF?

Galileo must be rotating in his crypt at a pretty high rate of speed.....

Is he playing peek-a-boo with God? Or keeping an eye out for L. Ron's aliens? Or does he write the astrology column for the Vatican times and just needs to confirm if venus is in the seventh house or not?

The Vatican Astronomer.... go figure.


Well you learn something new every day!

There is absolutely no science to Inteligent Design, other than a theory. At least evolution has some evidence to it. And this is coming from a Catholic!

An ASTRONOMER? Ain't that blasphemy?

Hehehe, The Vatican Astronomer! Who knew? :D

Something wrong with Astronomy? It's a perfectly valid and fascinating science.

I mean, the Pope has a personal physician, too ... he doesn't just pray to the magic cross man. He's Catholic, not Scientologist. ;)

Something wrong with Astronomy? It's a perfectly valid and fascinating science.

I mean, the Pope has a personal physician, too ... he doesn't just pray to the magic cross man. He's Catholic, not Scientologist. ;)
sigged

Something wrong with Astronomy? It's a perfectly valid and fascinating science.

I mean, the Pope has a personal physician, too ... he doesn't just pray to the magic cross man. He's Catholic, not Scientologist. ;)


Nothin' wrong with Astronomy at all. I'm rather fond of it personally.

It is, however, rather odd to discover that the Vatican has an OFFICIAL position staffed by clergy in its hierarchy devoted to it.

and
Of course, after reading the release the only thing that jumped out at me was.... The Vatican has a Chief Astronomer?!?!?!?!?!?

Yeah? And? So what?

The astronomy is very old

WTF?

Galileo must be rotating in his crypt at a pretty high rate of speed.....

IIRC Galileo used Jesuit observations in some of his calculations.

(...)
An ASTRONOMER? Ain't that blasphemy?
ASTROLOGY would be. The other thing is just looking at the stars scientifically.

Man, I tell you guys, I'm going to teach biology as a science class. I will never - mark my words - teach ID.

If anyone of the future students wants to hear about ID, I'd show'em the door and they can ask again in Religious Education (yes, it is a subject in German schools).

Yeah? And? So what?

The astronomy is very old

Methinks you're missing the comic value of this.. :p

It is, however, rather odd to discover that the Vatican has an OFFICIAL position staffed by clergy in its hierarchy devoted to it.

I've met one the Vatican's astrophysicists, Br. Guy Consalmagno. Very nice guy, he had a series on Radio 4.

Cannot find it, but there is an interview with him here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/vaticanscientists.shtml

Methinks you're missing the comic value of this.. :p

What comic value?

I honestly fail to see it. I have been aware the church had scientists for a long time.

What comic value?

I honestly fail to see it. I have been aware the church had scientists for a long time.
The comic value comes from the fact that Galileo was arrested and tortured for supporting the Copernican model of the solar system.

Olara']The comic value comes from the fact that Galileo was arrested and tortured for supporting the Copernican model of the solar system.

And?

The Church accepted the heliocentric system ages ago.

The treatment of Galileo was due to political reasons (he challenged the temporal authority of the Pope).

Olara']The comic value comes from the fact that Galileo was arrested and tortured for supporting the Copernican model of the solar system.

Yes,but the church once argued about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.they clearly had some priority problems.then again in those days you were a christian or you got killed so they prob didnt have much else to do.

Yes,but the church once argued about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.they clearly had some priority problems.then again in those days you were a christian or you got killed so they prob didnt have much else to do.

I don't believe the Church ever engaged in such a debate.

Maybe a few individual theologians, but it has never been a point of Church dogma or debating time.

I don't believe the Church ever engaged in such a debate.

Maybe a few individual theologians, but it has never been a point of Church dogma or debating time.

No, but they did debate on quite a few things that (a) can't really be answered and (b) were a waste of time (and lives when the "heretics" were killed) like:

1) How exactly was Christ both God and man? Now, any rational person would realize that, if God is ineffable, we're not going to be able to answer this, and it doesn't really matter how...... Yet a couple hundred years and quite a few votes were held on this very matter.

2) How exactly did Christ pass through Mary's birth canal without contracting orginal sin (you see, the Catholic Church sees Original Sin as a disease of sorts, passed on in the sperm and through the birth canal). This had all sorts of sides, including some arguing that Christ was not born through the brith canal at all, but popped out of Mary's side. In the end, official church doctrine states that Mary was the product of a virgin birth herself (but doesn't address the fact that they would need to go all the way back to Noah's wife giving virgin births to truly address the problem....)

Or does he write the astrology column for the Vatican times and just needs to confirm if venus is in the seventh house or not?
I wouldn't suggest that you mention to any astronomer that that is what astronomers actually do.

Why is everyone so shocked that the church has an astronomer? Historically they've had a lot of highly educated personell on hand. The Gallilleo thing was more about politics than science. The clergy was the ONLY educatd class in Europe durring the dark ages. Who do you think staffs all the colleges and Universities they own?

Unfortunately most of the people who fervently argue for ID tend to think the Pope is the AntiChrist and that all Catholics are basically evil and corrupt.

Unfortunately most of the people who fervently argue for ID tend to think the Pope is the AntiChrist and that all Catholics are basically evil and corrupt.

Yes, the damned Roman Magician and his cult of Baal worshipping sybarites...:eek:

2) How exactly did Christ pass through Mary's birth canal without contracting orginal sin (you see, the Catholic Church sees Original Sin as a disease of sorts, passed on in the sperm and through the birth canal). This had all sorts of sides, including some arguing that Christ was not born through the brith canal at all, but popped out of Mary's side. In the end, official church doctrine states that Mary was the product of a virgin birth herself (but doesn't address the fact that they would need to go all the way back to Noah's wife giving virgin births to truly address the problem....)

i have never heard of original sin being explained in such a manner. not even from my RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) class. Which dioscese was this?:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

i have never heard of original sin being explained in such a manner. not even from my RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) class. Which dioscese was this?:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

The Vatican itself has decided that Mary herself must have been the product of an Immaculate Conception.

As for the rest of it, there were various discussions within the church as to exactly how the birth was achieved. I'd have to go back to my theology books to find names of those who were proponents of the "He popped out of Mary's side," argument, but we are talking about a debate that occurred more around the time of the Dark Ages.. The Vatican declared Mary the product of a virgin birth sometime around the turn of the 20th century, IIRC.

Ah, and if you were talking about it being passed on by the male seed, that came from Augustian times. The Church pretty much adopted Augustinain theology completely, minus the more extreme end of his predestination ideas.

The Vatican itself has decided that Mary herself must have been the product of an Immaculate Conception.

.
That just means she was born without original sin, not that she was a virgin birth.

That just means she was born without original sin, not that she was a virgin birth.

According to Catholic dogma, the only way to be born without original sin is to be born of a virgin. The seed of a man passes original sin on (thus, any child born of the seed of a man has original sin) and any woman who has had sex or was born of the seed of a man can pass it on through her birth canal....

According to Catholic dogma, the only way to be born without original sin is to be born of a virgin. The seed of a man passes original sin on (thus, any child born of the seed of a man has original sin) and any woman who has had sex or was born of the seed of a man can pass it on through her birth canal.... So we just need to find an efficient, moral form of IVF and then we can produce the Vatican Master Race?

According to Catholic dogma, the only way to be born without original sin is to be born of a virgin. The seed of a man passes original sin on (thus, any child born of the seed of a man has original sin) and any woman who has had sex or was born of the seed of a man can pass it on through her birth canal....

You mean the Immaculate Conception, which is a holy day of obligation celebrated by Catholics on December 8th.. Here's an article explaining it. It's interesting.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

I'm not sure if the Church or any of its members ever saw original sin as a "disease" or anything like it, but they sure don't anymore. Also, the church doesn't believe that it was a virgin conception.

So we just need to find an efficient, moral form of IVF and then we can produce the Vatican Master Race?

Erm.....but IVF still uses sperm!


I'm not sure if the Church or any of its members ever saw original sin as a "disease" or anything like it, but they sure don't anymore. Also, the church doesn't believe that it was a virgin conception.

I didn't say they called it a disease. However, Catholic dogma has decreed that it is passed on that way - through the seed of the father, ever since Augustinian times. In truth, I reject the entire notion of some "original sin" that is passed on to all human beings as inconsistent with any notion of free will. The Church, however, does not - Hence, Christening of infants too young to even think about considering sin, and the doctrine that unbaptized infants either go to limbo or hell....

It all started back with Augustine said, "Babies sin win they cry for food...."

According to Catholic dogma, the only way to be born without original sin is to be born of a virgin. The seed of a man passes original sin on (thus, any child born of the seed of a man has original sin) and any woman who has had sex or was born of the seed of a man can pass it on through her birth canal....
Source? Not to be argumentative or anything its just in fourteen-years of Catholic schooling I've never heard that claim made.
In a quick search of a online Catechism this is what I got on the Immaculate Conception
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/491.htm
491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin."