NationStates Jolt Archive

All of us have bemoaned the devastation in Kashmere from the recent earthquake there. The devastation is complete.

The folowing is an email sent to me by another person on this board ( who may or may not elect to identify themselves ). Other than taking out the name of this poster, the email is posted here in its entirety.

As some of you know, [ we ] met and became close friends with a wonderful gentleman from Kashmere. Aziz, known as Papa Joe among his American friends, became a daily part of our lives and we loved him as a brother. Joe returned to Kashmire just a few weeks before the earthquake hit that devastated that region. In the few communications we have had since the quake Joe assured us that they were managing and getting things put to right again. Yesterday, I received pictures and videos of the quake damage to his home and neighborhood, and the following email:

Hi
How are you? I am fine with my family. As you know that this severe earthquake has ruined our properties and hundreds of people lost their lives. Our homes have destroyed, our business and printing press are demolished. I loss my sister, my grandson, my anti, my sister’s son and daughter and many other family members and friends. My own older daughter is injured, my sister and her children’s are injured, her one daughter is very serious she is totally paralyzed. Any many are injured. My grandson, he was in school. We are living in open air or in tants. Now the winter season has set in a few day’s heavy rains and snowfall will start. We don’t know what to do. We have no sources of income how can we survive in this situation. We are very grateful to you that you remember us in this hard time you are praying for us. We once again thank you for this sympathy and love. Now you please help us in this hard time as soon as possible. We are looking for you help. We pray for you and thankful to you also I want to send some pictures these are our home and our town.
Please send your help through western union on this address:
Khawaja Abdul Aziz Lone.
S/O KH. Fateh Muhammad Lone.
Abbottabad Pakistan
pray for us every time............... "God help us in this hard time" .........


Knowing Joe, this plea was very difficult for him to make. He takes great pride in caring and providing for his family, so he must be truly desperate if he is asking for help. [ We have ] discussed Joe and his family and we have come to this decision. We are far from rich, but we have everything we need and more. We could not enjoy any Christmas presents that we may give each other or receive knowing that our friend and his family don't have necessities such as food, heat, and a roof over their heads. So, we took the money we had put aside for Christmas presents for each other (and some of you guys, too) and sent it to Joe. We are going to continue to send all our extra cash. All we want for Christmas is our friend to be safe, warm and fed. I've attached a photo of Joe and one of his grandchildren.

I know that Joe will share anything he receives with other families. He's the kind who will do without if he can help someone else. We sent $500 to him yesterday and when I get paid next Wednesday we're sending some more. I just wish I could help everyone over there. It just kills my heart to know that there are thousands, maybe millions of people in this same situation.

Here's an opportunity for all of us to put our money where our mouths are. I'm going to send some to this fine gentleman as soon as I get my Social Security check. What are YOU going to do?

Well, I was going to make a joke about where I was going to put my monty, but I'll pass now.

I get paid next week, and I'll make a donation to a Pakistan relief fund--probably not to the address you provided there, as I can't be as certain as you of the legitimacy of it--but I will make one.

Well in fairness Eut, I get one or two or these a day in my spam. And yes, I have seen people claiming to be from the affected area of the earthquake and all I have to do is send a few dollars to buy a small heating/camping stove for heat.. cash preferably, but this is why people give to charity organistations.

Here, its almost a national tradition at Christmas and especially Easter to fill a small box with money in each household to give to a particular charity.

Well, I was going to make a joke about where I was going to put my monty, but I'll pass now.

I get paid next week, and I'll make a donation to a Pakistan relief fund--probably not to the address you provided there, as I can't be as certain as you of the legitimacy of it--but I will make one.
Good for you! Mah man! [ high fives ] :)

Well in fairness Eut, I get one or two or these a day in my spam. And yes, I have seen people claiming to be from the affected area of the earthquake and all I have to do is send a few dollars to buy a small heating/camping stove for heat.. cash preferably, but this is why people give to charity organistations.

Here, its almost a national tradition at Christmas and especially Easter to fill a small box with money in each household to give to a particular charity.
This is not a spam email. The poster on General who sent this to me knows this man personally. I have every confidence in the legitimacy of this.

The tradition of the box sounds like a very good one to me. I'm going to suggest that to my family. :)

Well, I was going to make a joke about where I was going to put my monty, but I'll pass now.

I get paid next week, and I'll make a donation to a Pakistan relief fund--probably not to the address you provided there, as I can't be as certain as you of the legitimacy of it--but I will make one.
Agreed

Agreed
"Agreed" with what? That the email is questionable or that you're going to make a donation? :p

Let me tell you dweebs who are ignoring this something: I'm not going to be very receptive to all your whining and crying about "the poor" and "the oppressed" if you can't even bother to respond to an obvious need like this.

I'm going to keep track of this thread, and whenever I see someone whining about "the US isn't doing enough to help [ whomEVER! ]" I'm going to remind you that you had an opportunity to be of real service to someone in need and just frakking IGNORED it!

I appreciate Eut for posting this and let me assure you it is legit. Joe and his brother ran convenience stores in my town. We got to know him very well and became best friends. His brother is a naturalized US citizen, but Joe maintained his native citizenship. He has worked in this country for several years to pay for college educations for his 6 kids and to provide nice weddings and doweries for his 5 daughters. His youngest (and only son), Umar, is in his last year of computer science studies at university. We hope to sponsor him to come to the US when he graduates. Joe returned home about a month before the quake. He has kept reassuring us that he was doing OK, but then I got his email this week and things couldn't be further from OK. We have decided to send the bulk of our donations to the quake relief to our friend and his family. It doesn't matter if you donate to our friend or to an international relief agency. What matters is that you help people in need in any way you can. If some of you would like to help my friend I can provide legitimate proof of my integrity (I'm an accountant and I work for a grant funded coalition of local governments. This organization has a website and I am listed in the staff). I can also post pics that Umar sent to me of their home, shop, town, and Joe with one of his grandsons in their tent. I recognize what is left of his home as I have pics from last year of one of his daughter's weddings in the courtyard. It's your call. But giving is the best present you can receive.

EDIT: I also have pics of Joe that we took at his store and at our home.

"Agreed" with what? That the email is questionable or that you're going to make a donation? :p
Both :) And made another donation to the International RedCross today

All of us have bemoaned the devastation in Kashmere from the recent earthquake there.

I haven't bemoaned anything.


Here's an opportunity for all of us to put our money where our mouths are.

My mouth never went there so my money limited as it is, is not following.

I'm sot sure I follow the meaning of this thread. The title seems to imply something other than the subject matter: in any event, dispensing with charity would not be "putting my money where my mouth is," since I'm generally against it in the first place.

But, to answer your question, I intend to put my money where my mouth is by not giving up a goddamn dime. I make $600 a month if I'm lucky, so I don't exactly have the spare change to be mailing to Indians. Maybe when I've solved all my problems I'll start worrying about other peoples'. Right now, however, that insurance isn't going to pay itself.

snip


Well considering i live in Bradford, where a vast proportion is Pakistani or Indian, you can't help but give money. When in one street over half its residents lost some relative or knew someone who had lost someone, then you can't help but help. Our land lord lost relatives. Every scrap of spare change and old blankets in our house were cleaned and sent. Given that we're a bunch of students without jobs, we're already at the limit of what we could give.

Its not ended there though, we're carrying on fund raising all through Christmas. It has to be done, given that temperatures there will hit -20 and below and snows will block the passes, everything has to be done NOW, but it already be too late for some. So much for rich nations generosity. Britain only delivered 25% of its promised donation, and other countries are worse.

I'm sot sure I follow the meaning of this thread. The title seems to imply something other than the subject matter: in any event, dispensing with charity would not be "putting my money where my mouth is," since I'm generally against it in the first place.

But, to answer your question, I intend to put my money where my mouth is by not giving up a goddamn dime. I make $600 a month if I'm lucky, so I don't exactly have the spare change to be mailing to Indians. Maybe when I've solved all my problems I'll start worrying about other peoples'. Right now, however, that insurance isn't going to pay itself.

Well, actually, Joe is from Pakistani Kashmir and is Muslim, not from India. And, I'm sure this thread was intended as a challenge to those more able to afford monetary donations. Of course people who are barely hanging on aren't able to contribute $$. The important message, at least in my opinion, is that it doesn't matter what or who you contribute to, or if you contribute money or volunteer a few hours of your time to a local homeless shelter or mentor a youth, or just make sure your discarded items go to a charity thrift store. What is important is that we all realize that no matter how bad it may be for us, someone has it worse. If we can help others in any way then we are doubley blessed.

Well considering i live in Bradford, where a vast proportion is Pakistani or Indian, you can't help but give money. When in one street over half its residents lost some relative or knew someone who had lost someone, then you can't help but help. Our land lord lost relatives. Every scrap of spare change and old blankets in our house were cleaned and sent. Given that we're a bunch of students without jobs, we're already at the limit of what we could give.

Its not ended there though, we're carrying on fund raising all through Christmas. It has to be done, given that temperatures there will hit -20 and below and snows will block the passes, everything has to be done NOW, but it already be too late for some. So much for rich nations generosity. Britain only delivered 25% of its promised donation, and other countries are worse.

I've contacted a little local newspaper and am working with them to let folks know our friends and neighbors have family in desperate need. It's dicey because this family is extremely proud. We're trying to do it so it does not appear as charity so much as sharing.

I've not seen figures on pledges v actual donations from the various countries. Do you have a link to those stats?

I've contacted a little local newspaper and am working with them to let folks know our friends and neighbors have family in desperate need. It's dicey because this family is extremely proud. We're trying to do it so it does not appear as charity so much as sharing.

I've not seen figures on pledges v actual donations from the various countries. Do you have a link to those stats?

Unfortunately not, they were on Channel 4 News in the UK last week. I can't honestly remember where they got their stats from although I have a hunch it was from the U.N. mission who were trying to help the situation.

Let me tell you dweebs who are ignoring this something: I'm not going to be very receptive to all your whining and crying about "the poor" and "the oppressed" if you can't even bother to respond to an obvious need like this.

I'm going to keep track of this thread, and whenever I see someone whining about "the US isn't doing enough to help [ whomEVER! ]" I'm going to remind you that you had an opportunity to be of real service to someone in need and just frakking IGNORED it!


I'm going to ignore your overbearing request for no other reason than its overbearing---go badger somewhere else.

I'm going to ignore your overbearing request for no other reason than its overbearing---go badger somewhere else.

And the pot said "Look how black that kettle is! How crude!". Please, don't make a big stink over a challenge to do good.

Hows the South of the USA doing after the tornado, I'd have thought stuff like that might have been closer to home for most people. I do on the other hand like that the disasters in the East seem to have so much support.

Well, actually, Joe is from Pakistani Kashmir and is Muslim, not from India.
Nitpickery! Perhaps my choice of ethnicity was the incorrect one; but it doesn't make a bit of difference in the context of the actual point I was making.

And, I'm sure this thread was intended as a challenge to those more able to afford monetary donations. Of course people who are barely hanging on aren't able to contribute $$. The important message, at least in my opinion, is that it doesn't matter what or who you contribute to, or if you contribute money or volunteer a few hours of your time to a local homeless shelter or mentor a youth, or just make sure your discarded items go to a charity thrift store. What is important is that we all realize that no matter how bad it may be for us, someone has it worse. If we can help others in any way then we are doubley blessed.
I hate to break it to you, but this is something of a paradox. Think about this for a second. Lets say you meet a penniless, multiple-amputee bum with syphilis living in Vladavostok in the middle of winter. Are you really prepared to tell that person that somone else has it worse? If someone is worse off compared to every other person on the planet, then on what basis do we decide that these people are worthy of handouts? There would have to be an infinite amount of humans on the planet for your statement to qualify, being that someone has to have it worse than the remainder of the human population, or else we're all in the same boat, which we most certainly aren't.

Also, moral purity does not come from handing your life over to complete strangers: unearned love is one of the most monstrous contradictions I can think of.

I'd help if I could but I ahve little to give and that little bit goes to local people and things

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

I give every month to the Red Cross. It is taken directly out of my bank account. I also give monthly donations to other deserving charities. I give what I can afford. If I gave more to every appeal for extra help because of some new disaster there would be nothing left.

I fail to see how only giving when the disaster is "bad enough" to get media attention would be more beneficial.

Wanna put your money where your mouth is? Donate regularly. Every month or every paycheque. Don't wait for the next big media disaster - there are people who need your help every day.

I know Zooke knows these people personally, and it is not my intention to disparage their need by this post either. I don't want to disparage anyone's intention to donate to this particular disaster either. I would just like to remind everyone that the need for help somewhere in the world does not change just because there isn't a new disaster flavour hitting the news next week.

Nitpickery! Perhaps my choice of ethnicity was the incorrect one; but it doesn't make a bit of difference in the context of the actual point I was making.


I hate to break it to you, but this is something of a paradox. Think about this for a second. Lets say you meet a penniless, multiple-amputee bum with syphilis living in Vladavostok in the middle of winter. Are you really prepared to tell that person that somone else has it worse? If someone is worse off compared to every other person on the planet, then on what basis do we decide that these people are worthy of handouts? There would have to be an infinite amount of humans on the planet for your statement to qualify, being that someone has to have it worse than the remainder of the human population, or else we're all in the same boat, which we most certainly aren't.

Also, moral purity does not come from handing your life over to complete strangers: unearned love is one of the most monstrous contradictions I can think of.

Everyone is better off than someone else except for one poor soul in total and abject misery. Even then, in his perception, someone else may be in worse shape than him. It's all a matter of perception, appreciating what you do have instead of mourning what you don't have, and your compassion for your fellow man.

What makes love a commodity to be earned? The philosophy I try to live by is that we are all responsible for each other. If no one assumed responsibility for others (man and beast) this world would be intolerable. And what encourages the assumption of responsibility but a love for all people in general. It is not a sentiment to be earned, but a gift you share and give freely and happily. It depletes me in no way but enriches my life in countless ways. Otherwise I would be a mean, petty inwardly focused waste of good genetic code. It's not a matter of moral purity, but a continuation of humanity.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

I give every month to the Red Cross. It is taken directly out of my bank account. I also give monthly donations to other deserving charities. I give what I can afford. If I gave more to every appeal for extra help because of some new disaster there would be nothing left.

I fail to see how only giving when the disaster is "bad enough" to get media attention would be more beneficial.

Wanna put your money where your mouth is? Donate regularly. Every month or every paycheque. Don't wait for the next big media disaster - there are people who need your help every day.

I know Zooke knows these people personally, and it is not my intention to disparage their need by this post either. I don't want to disparage anyone's intention to donate to this particular disaster either. I would just like to remind everyone that the need for help somewhere in the world does not change just because there isn't a new disaster flavour hitting the news next week.

I know what you mean. I give to several charitable organizations on a scheduled basis, I donate my O negative blood monthly, and I am a volunteer and donor for several local charities. I pitched in in several ways following the hurricanes, the tsunami, and various other major disasters. The well-being of this family is special to me because I love them so much, and Eut was kind enough to let all of you know and to put a "face" to the plight of so many right now. If some of you helped my friends specifically, I would be eternally grateful, but your choices as to what you share and with whom is yours alone, and for that I respect you. I guess I am just trying to encourage others to look beyond "self" and share whatever they may have to offer with others so that all will benefit.

Both :) And made another donation to the International RedCross today
Yayyyy! Good for you, UT! I KNEW there was SOME reason I liked you! :D

I'd help if I could but I ahve little to give and that little bit goes to local people and things
At least your heart is in the right place. I don't have much to spare either, but I am going to send whatever I can afford. At least I have a warm, dry place to live and none of my children or grandchildren have been crushed to death.

At least your heart is in the right place. I don't have much to spare either, but I am going to send whatever I can afford. At least I have a warm, dry place to live and none of my children or grandchildren have been crushed to death.

Thank you so much Eut. I know that you have been hearing about my Muslim brother and buddy for months and what a joy he is to Ricky and I. For some reason, the first time I walked into his store we made a connection...as if we had known each other all our lives...brother and sister by God's grace. To think that this dear man is suffering so much and I am not close so that I can help him and his family is unbelievably painful for me. I thank you for trying to help in any way you can...that's why you are so dear to me, too. Love you big guy.:fluffle:

Too bad I'm socialist.

I'd help if I could but I ahve little to give and that little bit goes to local people and things

My husband I are blessed in that we both make a decent salary and can spare a few bucks. The measure is not how much you give to others, but the heart you put into your giving.

... unearned love is one of the most monstrous contradictions I can think of.
"Unearned" love is the only true love. Having to "earn" someone's love is the most monstrous perversion of which I can think! :p

Too bad I'm socialist.
I agree. Heh!

Thank you so much Eut. I know that you have been hearing about my Muslim brother and buddy for months and what a joy he is to Ricky and I. For some reason, the first time I walked into his store we made a connection...as if we had known each other all our lives...brother and sister by God's grace. To think that this dear man is suffering so much and I am not close so that I can help him and his family is unbelievably painful for me. I thank you for trying to help in any way you can...that's why you are so dear to me, too. Love you big guy.:fluffle:
Shucks! [ blushes furiously ] ;)

"Unearned" love is the only true love. Having to "earn" someone's love is the most monstrous perversion of which I can think! :p

So true!! How can you measure the worthiness of love when you accept a child into your heart, or care for an elderly or disabled neighbor, or toil in service to the lost and displaced homeless, or comfort the ill, or shelter and love the unadoptable pets, or give of your life's precious blood, or just do something as simple as giving a smile to someone is who harried and unhappy? If you cannot give love freely and unconditionally, how can you ever expect yourself to be loveable?

Shucks! [ blushes furiously ] ;)

Ah...come on....you know I love you very very very much. You old poot you!!

Y'all may need to go hang out on some other threads while Eut and I have a fluffling love-in. (If you are in doubt as to the meaning of "love-in" please consult your hippie dictionary):p

All of us have bemoaned the devastation in Kashmere from the recent earthquake there. The devastation is complete.

The folowing is an email sent to me by another person on this board ( who may or may not elect to identify themselves ). Other than taking out the name of this poster, the email is posted here in its entirety.
[edit]
Here's an opportunity for all of us to put our money where our mouths are. I'm going to send some to this fine gentleman as soon as I get my Social Security check. What are YOU going to do?
I am a real cynic when it comes to direct email solicitations on the internet. This reeks of scam. If I was going to send money to the Pakistanis, which I will not, I would send it via some recognized NGO charity. Red Crescent or Red Cross, whatever works in a part of the world mired in the tenth century.

I am a real cynic when it comes to direct email solicitations on the internet. This reeks of scam. If I was going to send money to the Pakistanis, which I will not, I would send it via some recognized NGO charity. Red Crescent or Red Cross, whatever works in a part of the world mired in the tenth century.

ditto.

I have a thing against sending money to complete strangers soliciting it via internet too.

Everyone is better off than someone else except for one poor soul in total and abject misery. Even then, in his perception, someone else may be in worse shape than him. It's all a matter of perception, appreciating what you do have instead of mourning what you don't have, and your compassion for your fellow man.
If it's all about perception, than why have we made perception-based charity a goddamn law in this country? If there are no objective criterion for establishing the level of one's need, why is a bum on the corner any more deserving of my own money than I am? Maybe in his eyes he has the better deal--so can I get my money back?

What makes love a commodity to be earned? The philosophy I try to live by is that we are all responsible for each other. If no one assumed responsibility for others (man and beast) this world would be intolerable.
That has got to be the most goddamn ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life. If you try to live by this axiom, do you serve jail sentences for convicted felons? Do you fly to other cities to apologize to various restaurant patrons for another couple's annoying toddler? Do you even do it in your own city? I highly doubt it. I can no more take responsibility for the actions of other any more than I can think or digest their food for them. The same applies to you whether you're prepared to admit it or not: taking responsibility for the activities of others makes about as much sense as laminating one's reproductive organs. I'm surprised someone with as much life experience as yourself would come out in favor of such a ridiculous philosophical practice.

And what encourages the assumption of responsibility but a love for all people in general. It is not a sentiment to be earned, but a gift you share and give freely and happily. It depletes me in no way but enriches my life in countless ways. Otherwise I would be a mean, petty inwardly focused waste of good genetic code. It's not a matter of moral purity, but a continuation of humanity.
Also ridiculous. Responsibility is contingent on honesty--or the refusal of a person to fabricate reality to suit his ends. As is typical with most people I end up speaking to here, you're conflating the issue needlessly and attaching all sorts of stipulations to the term which most certainly do not exist. I'm not responsible because it might earn me the love of others, I'm responsible because, simply put, it doesn't make any sense not to be: distorting reality is the domain of politicians and overeager salesmen, not me.

Also, I can be completely irresponsible and still considerate of others, which is another one of the many facts that disprove the above 'logical' connection. For an example of this, just examine our Welfare laws.

"Unearned" love is the only true love. Having to "earn" someone's love is the most monstrous perversion of which I can think!
Last time I checked, marrying a complete stranger wasn't advisable for the average person, and I somehow doubt it became more practical in the intervening period. Love is earned through any number of means which likely vary from person to person, but broadly speaking love is earned by someone who shares or embodies one's values.

Methinks you're mistaking "unearned" and "unconditional" love. Love between a Vegas hooker and a visiting politician is certainly unearned, but that doesn't make it 'true love' simply on virtue of the part that neither party had to work for the other's affection, which is something of a misnomer anyway.

I'm not saying one has to work to become the object of another's affection [although sometimes they do]; generally it is 'earned,' so to speak, by possessing or lacking a certain quality or flaw [or a number of them]viewed as desirable by the valuer. People, unless they're mentally damaged, typically do not 'love' every other human being on the planet regardless of their actions or attributes.

I have a thing against sending money to complete strangers soliciting it via internet too.
Understandable, if that were the case in this instance, but if you read the posts on here you would know that Zooke knows this guy and his family. I think that negates the possibility of it being a "scam." :rolleyes:

I am a real cynic when it comes to direct email solicitations on the internet. This reeks of scam. If I was going to send money to the Pakistanis, which I will not, I would send it via some recognized NGO charity. Red Crescent or Red Cross, whatever works in a part of the world mired in the tenth century.

Please read the whole thread. This is an email I shared with Eut as it deals with someone I know and love personally. This is not an email scam, but a plea from a personal friend of mine whose family was devastated in the quake. FYI all the doubters, my name is Sandy Gray, my husband was a Marine and his name is Ricky Gray, we live in a suburb of Little Rock, AR, I am an accountant for a metropolitan planning coalition of local governments and he is a cabinet maker/woodworker and his work can be found from the Rockefeller mansion to the Clinton Library to the Arkansas State House of Representatives. How you donate is your business, but if you are under the assumption that all Pakistanis are undeserving then you need to get out and meet a few. I'm Israeli by birth, Catholic by faith, and I would do anything for this Muslim man and his family.

Good idea Eut. While I will not give to this particular person, I'll talk to a couple of friends of mine who are Indian and just might know people in that region that have it bad :)

Please read the whole thread. This is an email I shared with Eut as it deals with someone I know and love personally. This is not an email scam, but a plea from a personal friend of mine whose family was devastated in the quake. FYI all the doubters, my name is Sandy Gray, my husband was a Marine and his name is Ricky Gray, we live in a suburb of Little Rock, AR, I am an accountant for a metropolitan planning coalition of local governments and he is a cabinet maker/woodworker and his work can be found from the Rockefeller mansion to the Clinton Library to the Arkansas State House of Representatives. How you donate is your business, but if you are under the assumption that all Pakistanis are undeserving then you need to get out and meet a few. I'm Israeli by birth, Catholic by faith, and I would do anything for this Muslim man and his family.
I'm sorry for your friend's losses and I apologize for my hasty accusations.

But I have been to Pakistan. I spent two and a half weeks in the tenth century last fall in an enclave called Rawalpindi. Even though we were required to travel to and from our antenna site with armed guards, I was able to visit enough of the local area to be convinced that my charity is better spent on relief work in the U.S.A.

I'm sorry for your friend's losses and I apologize for my hasty accusations.

But I have been to Pakistan. I spent two and a half weeks in the tenth century last fall in an enclave called Rawalpindi. Even though we were required to travel to and from our antenna site with armed guards, I was able to visit enough of the local area to be convinced that my charity is better spent on relief work in the U.S.A.

Sometimes we base our opinion of the whole on the actions of the few. What I know of people from Pakistani Kashmir I know from Joe and his family...including his brother & sister-in-law and their children, his wife, son and some of his daughters via email, and a couple of nephews who live and work in the Boston area via phone and email. Without exception, they are all warm wonderful people, loyal to a fault, and generous beyond all reason. When Ricky and I have had little disasters, Joe was always one of the first ones to show up and offer his help and support in any way we needed. He has shared his family and love with us as if we were born into his family and we have shared ours with him, too. I guess the best way I can describe it is....we meet and make "friends" of countless people throughout our lives. They come and go as the years go on. But, once in a great, great while you meet and come to love someone who you want in your life for the rest of your life. In my almost 55 years of being (yes folks, I said 55) I can count those special people on the fingers of my 2 hands. Among those I count my husband, my ex-husband, my dearest friend for the last 34 years, and Joe. Now, for the first time in my life, someone I love dearly is in a situation that I cannot possibly conceive and I feel powerless to make a drastic difference for him. Eut was kind enough to understand that and call on you all to help. Joe is special to me and my heart makes me biased. But I know that his suffering is not unique. I leave it to all of you to make your own decisons.

Edit: I just want you to understand that my work on behalf of others is not limited to my friend. I volunteer my time, effort and financial support to several worthy causes. This one instance touches me personally.

Last time I checked, marrying a complete stranger wasn't advisable for the average person, and I somehow doubt it became more practical in the intervening period. Love is earned through any number of means which likely vary from person to person, but broadly speaking love is earned by someone who shares or embodies one's values.

Methinks you're mistaking "unearned" and "unconditional" love. Love between a Vegas hooker and a visiting politician is certainly unearned, but that doesn't make it 'true love' simply on virtue of the part that neither party had to work for the other's affection, which is something of a misnomer anyway.

I'm not saying one has to work to become the object of another's affection [although sometimes they do]; generally it is 'earned,' so to speak, by possessing or lacking a certain quality or flaw [or a number of them]viewed as desirable by the valuer. People, unless they're mentally damaged, typically do not 'love' every other human being on the planet regardless of their actions or attributes.
You obviously have an entirely different definition for the word "earned" than I do. Being who and what you are by genetics and rearing doesn't earn you anything. To earn means to in some way work for. Sorry about the confusion. :D

Please, if you will, this is my friend Joe and his grandson.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/Zooke/aziz.jpg

I just want to eat the bread.

If it's all about perception, than why have we made perception-based charity a goddamn law in this country? If there are no objective criterion for establishing the level of one's need, why is a bum on the corner any more deserving of my own money than I am? Maybe in his eyes he has the better deal--so can I get my money back?


That has got to be the most goddamn ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life. If you try to live by this axiom, do you serve jail sentences for convicted felons? Do you fly to other cities to apologize to various restaurant patrons for another couple's annoying toddler? Do you even do it in your own city? I highly doubt it. I can no more take responsibility for the actions of other any more than I can think or digest their food for them. The same applies to you whether you're prepared to admit it or not: taking responsibility for the activities of others makes about as much sense as laminating one's reproductive organs. I'm surprised someone with as much life experience as yourself would come out in favor of such a ridiculous philosophical practice.


Also ridiculous. Responsibility is contingent on honesty--or the refusal of a person to fabricate reality to suit his ends. As is typical with most people I end up speaking to here, you're conflating the issue needlessly and attaching all sorts of stipulations to the term which most certainly do not exist. I'm not responsible because it might earn me the love of others, I'm responsible because, simply put, it doesn't make any sense not to be: distorting reality is the domain of politicians and overeager salesmen, not me.

Also, I can be completely irresponsible and still considerate of others, which is another one of the many facts that disprove the above 'logical' connection. For an example of this, just examine our Welfare laws.


Last time I checked, marrying a complete stranger wasn't advisable for the average person, and I somehow doubt it became more practical in the intervening period. Love is earned through any number of means which likely vary from person to person, but broadly speaking love is earned by someone who shares or embodies one's values.

Methinks you're mistaking "unearned" and "unconditional" love. Love between a Vegas hooker and a visiting politician is certainly unearned, but that doesn't make it 'true love' simply on virtue of the part that neither party had to work for the other's affection, which is something of a misnomer anyway.

I'm not saying one has to work to become the object of another's affection [although sometimes they do]; generally it is 'earned,' so to speak, by possessing or lacking a certain quality or flaw [or a number of them]viewed as desirable by the valuer. People, unless they're mentally damaged, typically do not 'love' every other human being on the planet regardless of their actions or attributes.

Where do I begin? First off, let me differentiate our perceptions of "love". Love has nothing to do with paid for sex with a prostitute. That is physical minipulation of nerve endings. "Love" is not a factor. Love comes in various forms. I am "in love" with my husband, He is my soul mate and I share my life, my home, my dreams, my aspirations, and my body with him. He is the "heart" of my heart. I "love" my children and grandchildren and would sacrifice anything, including my life, for their well-being and benefit. They are my legacy and gift to eternity...not to mention I love them so much my heart almost bursts. I "have love" for my fellow man. I am not responsible for each and every one's actions. IE: I am not responsible for the actions of the person who molests or kills a child, but, I am responsible to listen, counsel, and "love" that person. (I use this example as the abuse of a child is the worst possible action I can imagine.)

Love is not synonymous to affection. Affection is for those close and known to you. Love is a way of being and a contribution you offer to all.

I'm far too cynical to not think: "Foreign Royalty"

I'm far too cynical to not think: "Foreign Royalty"

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

To me, love is not a commodity. It is something I offer to all, unconditionally. It is the personification of the appreciation and respect I have for each person, no matter their station in life, for being.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

I think it was Nigerian royalty.

Let me tell you dweebs who are ignoring this something: I'm not going to be very receptive to all your whining and crying about "the poor" and "the oppressed" if you can't even bother to respond to an obvious need like this.

I'm going to keep track of this thread, and whenever I see someone whining about "the US isn't doing enough to help [ whomEVER! ]" I'm going to remind you that you had an opportunity to be of real service to someone in need and just frakking IGNORED it!

I am not going to respond to this because it is a solicitation for cash on the internet.

I don't know you people, and likely never will. You can post all the "bona fides" you want, that doesn't mean anything either.

I, do, however resent the implication in your post that people are guilty of some form of moral failing because they are not responding to an internet solicitation for money.

Please read the whole thread. This is an email I shared with Eut as it deals with someone I know and love personally. This is not an email scam, but a plea from a personal friend of mine whose family was devastated in the quake. FYI all the doubters, my name is Sandy Gray, my husband was a Marine and his name is Ricky Gray, we live in a suburb of Little Rock, AR, I am an accountant for a metropolitan planning coalition of local governments and he is a cabinet maker/woodworker and his work can be found from the Rockefeller mansion to the Clinton Library to the Arkansas State House of Representatives. How you donate is your business, but if you are under the assumption that all Pakistanis are undeserving then you need to get out and meet a few. I'm Israeli by birth, Catholic by faith, and I would do anything for this Muslim man and his family.

Many of us probably have friends whom we "love" and whose "family [is] devasted." You don't see us posting for cash on the internet. What makes you so special?

Is it because their alleged misfortune is the result of a natural disaster, and not some other cause?

I find this whole thread, and much of the attitude therein to be inappropriate. If nothing else, it smacks of a form of emotional blackmail.

I'm half siding with Melkor on this issue, Zooke. With me being a Calvinist (on Reichskamphen's level, not Decisive Action's), though, obviously I agree with you to a point. Anyways, enough on that.


I myself will not make a donation for various reasons, including:

A) I am fifteen years old
B) I have no source of income, and no standing money
C) It is soliciting via internet -- something which I have never trusted other than well-reputed sites such as Amazon, E-bay, Cheaper-than-Dirt or any regular store with online shopping.
D) My parents probably wouldn't let me

However, Zooke, do not take reason "C" to be an attack on you. I do have a predisposition to believe you are honest, as I know Eutrusca is (even if our political views don't match a lot of the time :)), and you are friends with him. The simple fact is, though, it's over the internet, and pretty much all of the internet stuff are shams or more corrupt than the US welfare system.

Where do I begin? First off, let me differentiate our perceptions of "love". Love has nothing to do with paid for sex with a prostitute. That is physical minipulation of nerve endings. "Love" is not a factor. Love comes in various forms. I am "in love" with my husband, He is my soul mate and I share my life, my home, my dreams, my aspirations, and my body with him. He is the "heart" of my heart. I "love" my children and grandchildren and would sacrifice anything, including my life, for their well-being and benefit. They are my legacy and gift to eternity...not to mention I love them so much my heart almost bursts. I "have love" for my fellow man. I am not responsible for each and every one's actions. IE: I am not responsible for the actions of the person who molests or kills a child, but, I am responsible to listen, counsel, and "love" that person. (I use this example as the abuse of a child is the worst possible action I can imagine.)

Love is not synonymous to affection. Affection is for those close and known to you. Love is a way of being and a contribution you offer to all.
Two things: One, we're talking past each other here. You're talking about the personal kind of family love that I don't know anything about yet [being fairly young and thankfully rather childless] and I'm talking about the 'love' neccesary for me to feel for someone in order to give them money. Two, you did precisely nothing to answer a single point I made [excepting your obligatory deconstruction of my politican-hooker example, which I'll admit I expected], seeing it neccesary instead to clarify your views of the subject matter. That's all well and good I suppose, but if you're going to quote my post, at least be nice enough to address the points [of which there were more than one] contained within.

As is par for the course for NS General, my opponent has once again deconstructed my example and attempted to use various minutiae to 'prove' that the larger point is somehow invalidated by all of this.

But alas, you did make a point, and I will answer it now and hope that doing so will encourage you to address the rest of mine. You seem to feel that you have some sort of ethereal responsibility to 'counsel and love' others, as you put it, which is OK if that's what you want to do, but so few bleeding-heart types take the time to realize that [i]forcing the same obligations on people is not OK, and every time it is attempted, failure will be close behind. If you feel compassion for other people on some unknown and universal basis, fine. Just don't ask me to feel the same way for the same reasons, because emotions and the impetus for them vary far too drastically from person to person to base one's morality on.

Two things: One, we're talking past each other here. You're talking about the personal kind of family love that I don't know anything about yet [being fairly young and thankfully rather childless] and I'm talking about the 'love' neccesary for me to feel for someone in order to give them money. Two, you did precisely nothing to answer a single point I made [excepting your obligatory deconstruction of my politican-hooker example, which I'll admit I expected], seeing it neccesary instead to clarify your views of the subject matter. That's all well and good I suppose, but if you're going to quote my post, at least be nice enough to address the points [of which there were more than one] contained within.

As is par for the course for NS General, my opponent has once again deconstructed my example and attempted to use various minutiae to 'prove' that the larger point is somehow invalidated by all of this.

But alas, you did make a point, and I will answer it now and hope that doing so will encourage you to address the rest of mine. You seem to feel that you have some sort of ethereal responsibility to 'counsel and love' others, as you put it, which is OK if that's what you want to do, but so few bleeding-heart types take the time to realize that [i]forcing the same obligations on people is not OK, and every time it is attempted, failure will be close behind. If you feel compassion for other people on some unknown and universal basis, fine. Just don't ask me to feel the same way for the same reasons, because emotions and the impetus for them vary far too drastically from person to person to base one's morality on.

I didn't answer your post point by point as your views are in almost direct opposition to mine. I instead answered with a brief overall statement of the basis for my views. Otherwise we would have spiraled this thread into discussions of social welfare and charity in all its forms. I did feel it was necessary to redefine the term "love" as I see it and its many forms. I also clarified my definition of "responsibility", as in I am responsible to help others out of love (acceptance), but I am not responsible for other's actions. With the exception of my kids as they were growing up, I have never and would never assume to impose my will on another. I may "counsel" by offering other ideas for course of action. Often we make mistakes because we just didn't think of a better, more workable, idea. Ultimately, though, the choice is the individual's, and I would not try to deny them that.

Maybe I'm not understanding your overall point. I believe social welfare is a necessity in a properly functioning society, but not necessarily in the bloated, abused, and over-used form that we now have. Is the street corner bum deserving of my compassion? Of course. If I see a poor soul counting out pennies to buy a cup of coffee so that as a customer they may stay in the warmth of a restaurant, I'll buy them something to eat so that they can be warm and fed. If I see someone at the checkout trying to decide what to put back because they don't have enough money, I'll pay the difference so that they can have what they need. I'm fortunate to be able to afford to do that. Through such an act of loving kindness, maybe one of those people will stop and help a stranded motorist, or help an elderly person reach an item on a high shelf, or just do some random act of "loving" compassion for a stranger.

Perhaps I'm attaching too broad of a meaning to love, or maybe you're defining it too narrowly. Likely, it's better described for most people somewhere in between. I don't believe I am on some kind of "divine mission" or that my way is the only "right" way. It is simply my way.

I am not trying to pressure people to send money to my friend. Eut did this thread because he knows how much this guy means to us and he knew that I am thoroughly frustrated in not being able to help him more. Please let me redirect the intention of this thread. With the holidays fast approaching with all of the greed and consumer madness that is attached to this season, take my friend as an example and put a face to all the many who are struggling for survival. If you can find it in yourself, help in any way you can whether through a cash donation to a preferred charity or a smile and "How are you?" for the street corner bum. See if you can grow beyond "self" and expand a little into "selfless". Trust me...you'll grow from the experience.

I think it was Nigerian royalty.

You need to visit one of my favorite sites:

www.ebolamonkeyman.com

It's a hoot.