NationStates Jolt Archive

What´s your favourite weapon for self-defense against body-armoured enemies?

Ahem...do burglars use MBTs now? I think crime kinda got out of hand then...
:D

That being said, how about PzF 3 IT-600 (http://www.defense-update.com/products/p/panzerfaust.htm)?

i only need my fists...

I´m not really too concerned about criminal yet civilian intruders, but a Panzerfaust sure comes in handy against those getaway cars ;)

(Edit: Yeeha for typos)

Chuck Norris' roundhouse kick.

M4.

M4.

Why?

Chuck Norris' roundhouse kick.

Nah, too unreliable - he might be in a beginners´ karate class :)

Ahem...do burglars use MBTs now? I think crime kinda got out of hand then...
:D

That being said, how about PzF 3 IT-600 (http://www.defense-update.com/products/p/panzerfaust.htm)?
Woot for Reading Comprehension!!! :D

Body-Armoured...hmm...wouldn't pretty much any assault rifle do the trick?

Hmmm... Either my Ruger Mini-14 (.223), or my Lee-Enfield (.303 British). I think the Mini-14 would work better on armored targets. Y'know, higher bullet velocity and all.

What´s your favourite weapon for self-defense against body-armoured enemies?

M9 flamethrower.

Why?


Why not?

A Weatherbeat Mark 5 Sniper Rifle. The only things it can't take down are tanks. :D

Why not?

Um... because I was interested in your reasons for this choice?

Um... because I was interested in your reasons for this choice?

It defeats military grade armor. If a redneck straps a can to himself and calls it armor, I feel confident I can pwn him.

What´s your favourite weapon for self-defense against body-armoured enemies?

Remmington 870 with #4 shot. Maybe it'll pierce the armor, maybe it'll get around the plates, maybe it won't. Doesn't matter if it does, the force delivered will stop a heart anyway.

In - say - a hallway? Either a .357 - preferably S&W - or a MAC 10 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_10).

A hail of .45s down that hallway will stop anything.

...seriously, folks. Whats with all the rare, expensive, military grade weapons? I'll never understand the whole "what gun would you want" discussion. A good shotgun can be bought cheaply anywhere in the world and it's as useful as can be. You can repair it yourself, get the ammo anywhere, reaload the ammo if you want, it has all the power you need for anything you need to kill short of an elephant, its a great multi-tasker. Best of all, there is nothing, NOTHING more intimidating than the sound of cycling a round into the chamber of a well-used shotgun.

In - say - a hallway? Either a .357 - preferably S&W - or a MAC 10 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_10).

A hail of .45s down that hallway will stop anything.

Long as it doesn't jam up or misfire. Also, theres the problem of collateral damage. Everyone, I know a big ol' dirty harry revolver or sniper rifle makes you feel like an action hero, but those fast-n-heavy slugs can go quite a distance. Last thing you want is to fire 20 rounds and find out that 17 missed and one of those hit your wife in the ass upstairs...or your neighbor six doors down.

...seriously, folks. Whats with all the rare, expensive, military grade weapons? I'll never understand the whole "what gun would you want" discussion. A good shotgun can be bought cheaply anywhere in the world and it's as useful as can be. You can repair it yourself, get the ammo anywhere, reaload the ammo if you want, it has all the power you need for anything you need to kill short of an elephant, its a great multi-tasker. Best of all, there is nothing, NOTHING more intimidating than the sound of cycling a round into the chamber of a well-used shotgun.

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/mushroomcloud-37024.jpg.

Well, from my personal collection, I would still use my Glock. However, I am a good enough shot to hit the head 99.9% of the time. When you grow up in a town where most of your friend's fathers are 'Nam vets, you go shooting a lot. Also, within ten feet my, admittedly, illegally sawed-off 12-guage is still more than effective against someone wearing a vest. I also keep an AR-15, a Desert Eagle, and my trusty AK-47 in the attic.

I have never had to use any of my weapons against a fellow human being, but I know that if the situation arose I could use lethal force to protect my family.

...seriously, folks. Whats with all the rare, expensive, military grade weapons? I'll never understand the whole "what gun would you want" discussion. A good shotgun can be bought cheaply anywhere in the world and it's as useful as can be. You can repair it yourself, get the ammo anywhere, reaload the ammo if you want, it has all the power you need for anything you need to kill short of an elephant, its a great multi-tasker. Best of all, there is nothing, NOTHING more intimidating than the sound of cycling a round into the chamber of a well-used shotgun.

Shotguns have a limited range. Buckshot, unless delivered at a range inside of pistol effective range, is generally not lethal. Slugs can be used, but are heavier (you carry less than rifle rounds), and they are accurate to around 100 yards in the hands of someone competent.

A 5.56mm rifle is not expensive. It costs about the same as a medium quality bolt action Remington. Military grade is a misnomer.

5.56mm ammunition is the gold standard right now for CQB - rifles like the M4 are shorter, lighter, handier, accept more sighting devices and accessories, and have more shots per magazine (more shots per basic carry load) than any shotgun, and the rounds are lethal at short range. If a soldier enters a room, he can engage and kill more targets in less time with an M4 than with any shotgun.

Shotguns in modern service are largely relegated to guard duty and door breaching (you have to use a special round for this or you'll get hurt).

-snip-
That'll larn them burglars. :D

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/mushroomcloud-37024.jpg.

Nothing comercially available...

Nothing comercially available...
Yeah, thanks to evil Government interference in the free market.

Join LFTN:
Libertarians For Trading Nukes!

Nothing comercially available...

I still win. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P90

Specifically designed to defeat body armor...and is very ergonomic!

I would use my enormous penis.

...seriously, folks. Whats with all the rare, expensive, military grade weapons? I'll never understand the whole "what gun would you want" discussion. A good shotgun can be bought cheaply anywhere in the world and it's as useful as can be. You can repair it yourself, get the ammo anywhere, reaload the ammo if you want, it has all the power you need for anything you need to kill short of an elephant, its a great multi-tasker. Best of all, there is nothing, NOTHING more intimidating than the sound of cycling a round into the chamber of a well-used shotgun.

Shotgun = close range! I'd rather not limit myself to extreme close range, in fact I'd prefer my bolt action Lee-Enfield over my shotgun.

...seriously, folks. Whats with all the rare, expensive, military grade weapons? I'll never understand the whole "what gun would you want" discussion. A good shotgun can be bought cheaply anywhere in the world and it's as useful as can be. You can repair it yourself, get the ammo anywhere, reaload the ammo if you want, it has all the power you need for anything you need to kill short of an elephant, its a great multi-tasker. Best of all, there is nothing, NOTHING more intimidating than the sound of cycling a round into the chamber of a well-used shotgun.


i have to agree with you.

i was instinctively going to go with my(7.62x39) sa-93,however,i would think armor(body)would be used mostly at close range or in an urban/home situation.
and if not,i could always try concealment until a closer shot presented itself.
rather then risk a miss and injure or kill an innocent with a misplaced high powered bullet,i would go with the shotgun too.
a blast of oo buck,even if it doesnt penetrate the armor would certainly disorient/stagger them,long enough to cycle a sabot slug(barnes solid copper slug)which at moderate range would be devastating.
an aside,i always keep my pump for self defence loaded with alternating shells of buck and slug,buck in the pipe,then a slug/buck/slug/buck,a good combo of power and range.:mp5:

*snip*

The original question was not just about body armor, but about self defense. I read self defense as to mean pistol effective range. Were not talking about picking off comandos as 150 yards. We are also not talking about what a soldier needs in house to house fighting.

The point I was making was that for practical or self-defense purposes, you can't get something better than a a good shotgun. Sighting devices are nice, but if you're in close range with a shotty ghost sights work fine. Also, my Remmington can hold 5 shells. Yes, I have guns that can hold 20 rounds. Yes, its fun. But really, when are you going to be in a self defense situation that requires more than 5 shotgun shells? Where do you live? Baghdad!? Next door to an UmbrellaCorp research facility? In a Arnold Schwarzenegger movie? C'mon.

Yeah, I know military grade is a misnomer. A better term wold have been "masturbatory." All too often in these discussion it degenerates into a "my obscure gun is cooler than your obscure gun" pissing contest.

On a side note, let me ask a question. If you could only have ONE longgun for the rest of your life, what would it be?

I defer my answer to the most capable Ibis Tek security company which has provided this comercially available answer:
http://www.ibistek.com/cobra.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P90
Seconded. I like ye olde Sausage-Gun.

an aside,i always keep my pump for self defence loaded with alternating shells of buck and slug,buck in the pipe,then a slug/buck/slug/buck,a good combo of power and range.:mp5:

I live in an appartment building, so I keep saftey slugs in mine(#6 shot in a scored copper tube that opens like a black talon when it hits a solid target). Low penetration, but it makes up for that in soft tissue damage. Besides, something like that won't just stagger someone in armor, it'll break bones and maybe rupture organs.

Yes, I have guns that can hold 20 rounds. Yes, its fun. But really, when are you going to be in a self defense situation that requires more than 5 shotgun shells? Where do you live? Baghdad!? Next door to an UmbrellaCorp research facility? In a Arnold Schwarzenegger movie? C'mon.

Actually, it's worse. I live in the redneck infested sticks (AKA the middle of nowhere). People storm my house every other week. ;)

Yeah, I know military grade is a misnomer. A better term wold have been "masturbatory." All too often in these discussion it degenerates into a "my obscure gun is cooler than your obscure gun" pissing contest.

On a side note, let me ask a question. If you could only have ONE longgun for the rest of your life, what would it be?

I'd have to say my Lee-Enfield no.4 mk.1. I :fluffle: it. Mostly because of its historical and sentimental value. But the .303 British rounds do make really big holes in people.

I'm too broke to purchase a gun. I'll just have to use my crossbow if ever I'm in that situation before I can afford a gun. :(

A ten gauge shotgun, with a sabot slug. It'll shoot clean through a telephone pole and keep going. And you can get one at any gun shop.

Now if were gettin fancy, then just about any make of .50 caliber rifle would do, considering it will shoot through a manhole cover at 1.5 miles.

Remmington 870 with #4 shot. Maybe it'll pierce the armor, maybe it'll get around the plates, maybe it won't. Doesn't matter if it does, the force delivered will stop a heart anyway.
Not at any distance longer then 5 yards. Shot tends to lose energy soon after it seperates. As a matter of fact, my cousin was shot at 80 yards with 4 shot, and it didn't penetrate the skin. Hurt like hell though!

In - say - a hallway? Either a .357 - preferably S&W - or a MAC 10 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_10).

A hail of .45s down that hallway will stop anything.
Not behind body armor. It's designed to stop an AK-47, which has WAY more power than anything a Mack 10 is chambered for. Same with the .357. The new ceramic body armor will stop it cold.

Why, anything from Al-Imvadjah Exports, of course.
http://s6.invisionfree.com/International_Mall/index.php?showtopic=2134

Stealth, firecrackers and a sabre.

:mp5: has to be a nuclear bomb. No chance of a miss. Hey he only said a weapon not just guns. Only downside, you kill yourself!

Hmm...ill go one step further, antimatter bomb! take the continent im on with me.

Assault rifle wise I have my 1945 .30 all american made carbine. And I also have my 60 year old .306.

i say eather a shotgun(12 gauge) or a .22 rifle
but most likly the .22 because the kick from a shotgun will knock me flat on my back:(

Glock 32 in .357 Sig.....115gr Corbon HP at 1350 FPS will penetrate most commercially available body armor.....if I need more I have my SKS in 7.62 X 39 or the trusty Colt A2.

What´s your favourite weapon for self-defense against body-armoured enemies?
12 gauge pump

The original question was not just about body armor, but about self defense. I read self defense as to mean pistol effective range. Were not talking about picking off comandos as 150 yards. We are also not talking about what a soldier needs in house to house fighting.

The point I was making was that for practical or self-defense purposes, you can't get something better than a a good shotgun. Sighting devices are nice, but if you're in close range with a shotty ghost sights work fine. Also, my Remmington can hold 5 shells. Yes, I have guns that can hold 20 rounds. Yes, its fun. But really, when are you going to be in a self defense situation that requires more than 5 shotgun shells? Where do you live? Baghdad!? Next door to an UmbrellaCorp research facility? In a Arnold Schwarzenegger movie? C'mon.

Yeah, I know military grade is a misnomer. A better term wold have been "masturbatory." All too often in these discussion it degenerates into a "my obscure gun is cooler than your obscure gun" pissing contest.

On a side note, let me ask a question. If you could only have ONE longgun for the rest of your life, what would it be?

my mossy pump...with my 18and1/2 barrel/24 inch rifled barrel/24 inch smoothy/28 inch

i say eather a shotgun(12 gauge) or a .22 rifle
but most likly the .22 because the kick from a shotgun will knock me flat on my back:(

they dont kick too bad...plus you can get low recoil shot now..the cops use them so they can have faster reaction/on target time

My weapon of choice would be balls of fire from my eyes coupled with bolts of lightning from my arse.

Glock 32 in .357 Sig.....115gr Corbon HP at 1350 FPS will penetrate most commercially available body armor.....if I need more I have my SKS in 7.62 X 39 or the trusty Colt A2.


i was very interested..still am in .357sig....i was going to get a springfield xd in said caliber...i have a taurus pt in 9mm..may as well throw it at someone in armor...i am now leaning towards an xd in 40 cal,cause ammo's cheaper and it is from my readings, comparable.
my buddy is a died in the wool .45 slabside nut,nice..but against armor,it has to big of a sectional density,or the bullet is going to easily be defeated by armor because it s to big diameter wise,and not a high velocity bullet to begin with.
shooting at a soft tissue target..unbeatable at close range...but i plan for most contingicies.
so i will prolly go with the 40 sw.

nothing beats a sabot slug under 50 yards though...cept maybe a rhino.

i have fiber optic sights on my rifled slug barrel,and damned if i cant hit inside of 1 inch of point of aim at 50 yards...or 150 meters for our euro friends(?)question was for conversion of yards to meters.
never mind...a meter is a yard kinda..my bad..no shooting tonight..lol...well at least i would only hit you in the knee....haha

What´s your favourite weapon for self-defense against body-armoured enemies?

My incredible sense of humour... :D

My incredible sense of humour... :D

perfect.....too good...:fluffle:

Personally I'd prefer a knife or sword. Most "gunfights" occur within 10' or less, and if it is "self defense" you're interested in, then a more personal weapon is the way to go. Vests aren't made to stand up to them, and there's little to no risk of accidentally hitting someone other than the person your intending to put at the business end.

Personally I'd prefer a knife or sword. Most "gunfights" occur within 10' or less, and if it is "self defense" you're interested in, then a more personal weapon is the way to go. Vests aren't made to stand up to them, and there's little to no risk of accidentally hitting someone other than the person your intending to put at the business end.

Funny, I've never missed a target at 10 feet or less.

I regularly take a test called "El Presidente", where you turn 180 degrees, draw, fire two shots each at three targets 15 feet away, turn, reload, and fire two shots each at three targets 15 feet away. The timer stops on the last shot.

I never miss any of the targets - in fact, 90 percent of the time, all of my shots are inside the 5 ring. The first six shots are completed (from the initial start time when my back is turned) in 1.6 second on average, and the whole exercise for me ends in 5.5 seconds on average.

If I was engaging a single target instead of multiple targets, I feel I wouldn't have any problem putting six rounds into a single target (drawing on a target with my back initially turned) in just over a second.

I don't think you could do as much damage with a knife in a little over a second as I do with six rounds of 45 ACP.

Funny, I've never missed a target at 10 feet or less.
[deleted]
I don't think you could do as much damage with a knife in a little over a second as I do with six rounds of 45 ACP.

But little cabbage, you forget that this whole concept of self-defense is an abstract one to most who post here.

i was very interested..still am in .357sig....i was going to get a springfield xd in said caliber...i have a taurus pt in 9mm..may as well throw it at someone in armor...i am now leaning towards an xd in 40 cal,cause ammo's cheaper and it is from my readings, comparable.
my buddy is a died in the wool .45 slabside nut,nice..but against armor,it has to big of a sectional density,or the bullet is going to easily be defeated by armor because it s to big diameter wise,and not a high velocity bullet to begin with.
shooting at a soft tissue target..unbeatable at close range...but i plan for most contingicies.
so i will prolly go with the 40 sw.

nothing beats a sabot slug under 50 yards though...cept maybe a rhino.

i have fiber optic sights on my rifled slug barrel,and damned if i cant hit inside of 1 inch of point of aim at 50 yards...or 150 meters for our euro friends(?)question was for conversion of yards to meters.
never mind...a meter is a yard kinda..my bad..no shooting tonight..lol...well at least i would only hit you in the knee....haha


I have an XD 4 inch in .40, nice pistol, ergonomics are great and it's pretty accurate for me. I had and sold an XD in .357sig and an HK USP compact in the same caliber. The Glock is a little smaller, easier to conceal during the summer months and the round has a lot more punch to it than the .40 does, that's why I prefer it. I've never been a fan of 1911s.....too much "tuning" required to get them to work with anything besides ball ammo, unless you're willing to drop major coin on a Kimber.

Bow and arrow. Arrows can poke through kevlar better than any AP bullet, I believe, sectional density is more important than velocity here. A shotgun is a good choice, the sheer blunt trauma will stop the attacker even if the armor isn't penetrated. Or the Russian Vikhr compact assault rifle in that new Russian 9x39 subsonic caliber. They say it can pierce level 4 vests.

Personally I'd prefer a knife or sword. Most "gunfights" occur within 10' or less, and if it is "self defense" you're interested in, then a more personal weapon is the way to go. Vests aren't made to stand up to them, and there's little to no risk of accidentally hitting someone other than the person your intending to put at the business end.

At short range an axe or hammer works as well.

The only weapons I have that will defeat body armor are knives and clubs. Pistols suck for that sort of thing.

The only weapons I have that will defeat body armor are knives and clubs. Pistols suck for that sort of thing.
That's why you always give people two to the chest and one to the head...

And most people don't wear body armor.

i have my own body armour :D which i usually wear for paintballing and my 1907 British bayonet is rather pointy.

That's why you always give people two to the chest and one to the head...

And most people don't wear body armor.
I've never seen anyone but a cop wearing a vest. I'd considered buying one a few years ago, but never did it.

I've never seen anyone but a cop wearing a vest. I'd considered buying one a few years ago, but never did it.
One interesting thing in most states is that if you commit a crime, and you happen to be wearing body armor while doing so, you get an extra felony on top of it.

It's also obvious that you're wearing it, unless you're wearing a fairly light vest that won't stop much and it's the middle of winter.

Depends on what you're looking to do, and what's the range? If we're talking close range, within 50 feet, a .45 should be able to pierce older ba's. If we're talking distance and up to date armor something along the lines of a .308 will take them down. If you want to liquify your target, use a big boar or a light fifty and that will definetly pierce.

Depends on what you're looking to do, and what's the range? If we're talking close range, within 50 feet, a .45 should be able to pierce older ba's. If we're talking distance and up to date armor something along the lines of a .308 will take them down. If you want to liquify your target, use a big boar or a light fifty and that will definetly pierce.

It's easier to shoot for the head.

What level body armor are you talking about? Class I, class II, class III, class IV, Class V, with or without cermaic or metal trama plates?

What level body armor are you talking about? Class I, class II, class III, class IV, Class V, with or without cermaic or metal trama plates?

Doesn't matter - I aim for the head.

Not at any distance longer then 5 yards. Shot tends to lose energy soon after it seperates. As a matter of fact, my cousin was shot at 80 yards with 4 shot, and it didn't penetrate the skin. Hurt like hell though!


Again, self defense. 5 yards is 15 feet, and I'd hazard to guess that with a good tight choke in your shotgun you could probably do a hell of alot of damage just from impact at 15 yards.

A ten gauge shotgun, with a sabot slug. It'll shoot clean through a telephone pole and keep going. And you can get one at any gun shop.

Now if were gettin fancy, then just about any make of .50 caliber rifle would do, considering it will shoot through a manhole cover at 1.5 miles.


Now thats just irresponsible. The kind of penetration you're talking about make you a menace to everyone within a pretty wide radius. Also...has anyone here ever actually shot any kind of .50 cal rifle? Anyone in that group confident firing one from the hip? Confident of being able to shoulder one? Those kinds of guns aren't made for manuverability, they'd be of more use as a club than as a gun in a close self defense situation.

I've never seen anyone but a cop wearing a vest. I'd considered buying one a few years ago, but never did it.

Umm...unless you're going to war, I'd take being a good shot over being able to get shot any day. I'm not robing a bank, I'm not invading Bolivia, I'm not a cop, I don't see a need to spend the cash on body armor. Sure it'd be cool to have, but I'd rather spend the money on that Browning A-bolt Ive been drooling over.

I'd go woth the FN Five-SeveN if the SS190 round was civilian-legal, as that round can go through 48 layers of Kevlar and standard width CRISAT plates at 100. The Five-SeveN holds 20 rounds as well, but I probably wouldn't use it as a civilian self-defense sidearm because you don't need that many bullets if someone just tries to mug you and break into your house and such, and the .357-cal lapua magnum rounds don't have too much stopping power. For self-defense, I'd go for something that fires .45 ACP, and If I was in the military I'd keep a two-shot .45-cal derringer or two in my back pocket/s so I could have 2-4 shots if disarmed. A good two-shot .45 derringer, a steady hand, and a good aim is all you really need.

Well, as others say, too many variables. However, IRL, I would never expect to have a body-armored enemy, anyway. The only people I know with body armor are law enforcement, military, and some family members in those professions. I, at the very least, like, respect, and get along well with all those groups, so what's the point?

However, if again we're talking IRL, and I had to shoot someone, I'd almost certainly be in or very near my home. I don't need to carry anymore, and so I don't. The only place I'd have ready access to my weapons would be at home, and my far-and-away first choice would be my Ithaca Model 37 shotgun (12ga - minimum legal barrel length). Because I'd be in or near home, over-penetration becomes a major concern - I care about my family and neighbors. That rules out slugs and sabot rounds, and I don't keep those in or near my gun. I load #4 shot, mostly - Useful at any practical range in home defense. Body armor or no body armor, anyone gets hit with a pattern of #4, they gonna know they've been kissed. If, after the first round, they're not down or running away, then follow-up shots will go to the head or legs.

One way or another, they will cease to be a threat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P90

Specifically designed to defeat body armor...and is very ergonomic!

:D Belgian gun

That's why you always give people two to the chest and one to the head...

And most people don't wear body armor.


Hey-
I'm considering a move to Pa sometime in the next several months. I'm checking out all the pros and cons of moving there and found that no permit or registration is required for long guns OR pistols.
So far-it looks like only concealed carry requires a permit.

meanwhile, even the air rifle I have in NJ is illegal.

Hey-
I'm considering a move to Pa sometime in the next several months. I'm checking out all the pros and cons of moving there and found that no permit or registration is required for long guns OR pistols.
So far-it looks like only concealed carry requires a permit.

meanwhile, even the air rifle I have in NJ is illegal.
You must be 21 to apply for a Concealed Firearms Permit.

Pennsylvania is a shall issue state handled by County Sheriff's offices with the exception of the city of Philadelphia which is handled by the Police Department. An application form is required. Whether you need to apply in person is dependent upon the county. There are some other differences as some counties require a passport like photograph for processing.

Special Sports Permit for Hunting or Fishing From County Treasurer's Offices--

A sportsman's firearms PERMIT allows one who holds a fishing, hunting, trapping, or dog-training license to carry a handgun while engaged in that activity, or moving to and from that activity (but not loaded in a motor vehicle). To obtain one, apply to the county Treasurer (not Sheriff) and bring your hunting or fishing etc. license. The cost is $6 for 5 years. The permit is issued IMMEDIATELY and WITHOUT any application process (other than to list one's name and address and description). One need not be a resident of Pennsylvania to have a permit, but must have a Pennsylvania license for fishing, hunting, trapping, dog training. The Sportsman's permit is a good option for those who only want to have a handgun while hunting or fishing. It's very easy to obtain, at a reasonable cost, and it's issued immediately.

<snip>

Umm...unless you're going to war, I'd take being a good shot over being able to get shot any day. I'm not robing a bank, I'm not invading Bolivia, I'm not a cop, I don't see a need to spend the cash on body armor. Sure it'd be cool to have, but I'd rather spend the money on that Browning A-bolt Ive been drooling over.
I used to be a little bit of a thug. One of my buddies in Philadelphia used to sell coke and weed and sometimes had me hang out as muscle to keep from being ripped off. Stuff like that made me consider owning a vest.

I used to be a little bit of a thug. One of my buddies in Philadelphia used to sell coke and weed and sometimes had me hang out as muscle to keep from being ripped off. Stuff like that made me consider owning a vest.
In that case, even a very light vest is nice for those times when people punch you in the torso. You don't even have to tense up, and you can take a punch right in the solar plexus if you're wearing most vests.

In that case, even a very light vest is nice for those times when people punch you in the torso. You don't even have to tense up, and you can take a punch right in the solar plexus if you're wearing most vests.
I've always been able to take a punch. That wasn't the problem. Robberies in those situations occur at gunpoint. I would be standing around with a pistol waiting for everything to go to hell and hoping that it wouldn't.

I've always been able to take a punch. That wasn't the problem. Robberies in those situations occur at gunpoint. I would be standing around with a pistol waiting for everything to go to hell and hoping that it wouldn't.
I can take one to the body if I'm expecting it. But not to the head. One solid hit to my head and I'm laying on the floor.

Still conscious, but not getting up anytime soon.

I can take one to the body if I'm expecting it. But not to the head. One solid hit to my head and I'm laying on the floor.

Still conscious, but not getting up anytime soon.
I've always had a really hard head. I've had large wooden objects broken over it. Most people on the street will throw almost exclusively at your head. That's fine with me. I've never been knocked out on the training mat or in the street.

I've always had a really hard head. I've had large wooden objects broken over it. Most people on the street will throw almost exclusively at your head. That's fine with me. I've never been knocked out on the training mat or in the street.
In Navy Flight School, we had to box three rounds. Those were the worst 6 minutes of my life. The guy that was fighting me was a pal, but none of us like to lose. He got me to drop my arms and started hitting me in the head. All I can remember is being unable to do anything. Couldn't back up, couldn't raise my arms, couldn't punch back... I don't pick fights because I don't think I'd stand much of a chance in them.

In Navy Flight School, we had to box three rounds. Those were the worst 6 minutes of my life. The guy that was fighting me was a pal, but none of us like to lose. He got me to drop my arms and started hitting me in the head. All I can remember is being unable to do anything. Couldn't back up, couldn't raise my arms, couldn't punch back... I don't pick fights because I don't think I'd stand much of a chance in them.

Holding your arms up in a traditional boxing stance is more difficult than most people think - that, and keeping your chin consistently down.

Then again, most street fights don't last anywhere near as long as a boxing match.

my mossy pump...with my 18and1/2 barrel/24 inch rifled barrel/24 inch smoothy/28 inch
Likewise - along with the .50 cal Muzzle-loading barrell.

As for the original question:

If they are wearing Armor there are only 3 reasons that might apply:

#1 - They are Cops. I say "They, because armored types usually travel in groups. Shooting Cops is a bad idea.
#2 - They are Marines/Infantry... worse idea.
#3 - They are Well Equipped Bad Guys (a'la the Holloywood Heist)

If I MUST engage #3, then the object will be #1, knock them down/break some ribs, #2 do it again, #3 while they are rolling around either disarm them or shoot them somewhere non-armored - like the Pelvis or Skull.

A good Pelvis shot with a heavy .357 or .44 is usually fatal.

So, my carry gun wouldn't really change. Ruger SP101 .357 with 180gr SJHPs.

If we are talkign about Kevlar or Mylar a Knife.


I would say a knife assuming that most body armours are made of either kevlar or mylar and assuming that this is nto some rich uber-athletic burgler who is capable of running like hell even when burdened by a heavy kevlar vest with a metal trauma plate in it....


Otherwise.


16 inch naval gun. Oh yeah!


In reality: And M82 or an M95....with AP bullets... that should stop the bastard.

Would a .410 bore shotgun loaded with slugs go through a vest?

Probably an RPK or RPD with a 100 round drum :p . Ahh, Belt-fed goodness!

Although something more portable, maybe a AK-74 or AKM.

Would a .410 bore shotgun loaded with slugs go through a vest?
No. You need velocity and a spitzer-type (pointy tip) bullet. Though my old .454 Casull would do a pretty good job on anything not wearing a ceramic/steel trauma plate.... :eek:

Though from what I understand a .22 doing 3000 rpm (50 rps) will pretty much defeat anything...

No. You need velocity and a spitzer-type (pointy tip) bullet. Though my old .454 Casull would do a pretty good job on anything not wearing a ceramic/steel trauma plate.... :eek:

Though from what I understand a .22 doing 3000 rpm (50 rps) will pretty much defeat anything...
Thanks. I was curious about that. How about a 12 guage slug? Still not sharp or fast, but it's heavy as hell.

Thanks. I was curious about that. How about a 12 guage slug? Still not sharp or fast, but it's heavy as hell.
Against soft armor it will break ribs, but only really incapacitate if it causes coronary arrythmia. With a (blunt) "Trauma plate" it will just knock you down/knock the wind out of you.

OTOH, once the armored person is on the ground, there are many nasty things you can do to them... like follow up the center-of-mass slug with buckshot up the groin... :eek: (That's how my shotgun is loaded ... )

I like a good concrete dildo!

(one oblamo point of d00mZ0rZ for anyone who knows where it comes from)

I like a good concrete dildo!

(one oblamo point of d00mZ0rZ for anyone who knows where it comes from)So, you're into a bit of the 'ol ultraviolence after a squiff at the moloko milk bar?....

Just as long as I get to listen to Ludwig Von. ;)

you guys are missing the obvious with all the fire power. a shotguns well and good, as are the more impressive guns mentioned, but a .22 will slip through nearly any body armour, including kevlar. I'd choose a .22 magnum if I knew I'd be up against body armour!

Hellsing Arms Manufacture .454 Casull:D

OTAKU OF THE WORLD UNITE!!!:D :D

Hey-
I'm considering a move to Pa sometime in the next several months. I'm checking out all the pros and cons of moving there and found that no permit or registration is required for long guns OR pistols.
So far-it looks like only concealed carry requires a permit.

meanwhile, even the air rifle I have in NJ is illegal.

pa. is very gun friendly,and have a shall issue carry permit!

which means,unlike new germany,unless your a convicted felon,a mentally adjudicated person,or have a drug conviction or more then 3 dui's in a 10 year period..they have to issue you the ccw.

i have 2 homes,1 in new germany(for work reasons) and 1 in pa up the mountains.
in pa. alot of people carry,even in bars(my friend always has his colt commander...and carries it everywere..bars included)and once the police were called because the young barmaid(college kid...and i am sure taught that guns are evil...oooh) saw it and called the cops,they came,checked his permit and left.
i feel safer there then anywhere in n.j.

go to camden and tell me gun control works..what a joke.

in pa. everyone has a gun it seems,and even when tempers flare they are never brandished in my exsperiance...i also worked in north philly for a year or 2,and there they were always people shooting and crazy crap..but they were ALWAYS people that could not legally own or carry.

i just feel safer with responsible people armed and crimminals disarmed..go figure.

go 12 gauge for close stuff and someone mentioned a .50bmg..i shot one and all ican say is..it will shoot thru about 10 people,not a good choice for self defence unless your at the tip of the spear.

p.s. get caught with a bb gun in new germany(nj) and go to jail..what a ridiculous joke,meanwhile camden/newark..is a shootout daily(all crimminals that if they didn;t have guns they would stab or burn you)

pa is cool state,only issue is philly has that stupid wage tax last i checked,but the burbs and mountains rule!

you guys are missing the obvious with all the fire power. a shotguns well and good, as are the more impressive guns mentioned, but a .22 will slip through nearly any body armour, including kevlar. I'd choose a .22 magnum if I knew I'd be up against body armour!
Not true. A .22 WMR FMJ might penetrate Level II soft if fired from a rifle - but then the .22 WMR is very close to the 5.56 in performance at short to moderate ranges. Out of a pistol it doesn't have enough velocity to perform well and again might penetrate Level I.

Here's the skinny:

Body armor is not bulletproof. Soft body armor, for example, will not stop most centerfire rifle rounds. An industry rule of thumb is to buy armor that protects a service member from his or her duty firearm. Even better is that body armor routinely and significantly over-protects. The best body armor in the world will not help people who are not wearing it.

The first step in selecting the appropriate protection level of body armor is to establish the level of protection that users need based on the realistic weapon threat they face. To date, body armor has not been known to fail to prevent the penetration of a bullet constituting a threat equal to or less than the protection rating of the armor. However, officers have died from wounds received from weapons or ammunition exceeding the rated protection of the armor.

NIJ Standard–0101.04 establishes six formal armor classification types, as well as a seventh special type.

Type I (.22 LR; .380 ACP). This armor protects against .22 long rifle lead round nose (LR LRN) bullets, with nominal masses of 2.6 g (40 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 320 m/s (1050 ft/s) or less, and against .380 ACP full metal jacketed round nose (FMJ RN), with nominal masses of 6.2 g (95 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 312 m/s (1025 ft/s) or less. Type I body armor is light. This is the minimum level of protection every officer should have, and the armor should be routinely worn at all times while on duty. Type I body armor was the armor issued during the NIJ demonstration project in the mid-1970s. Most agencies today, however, because of increasing threats, opt for a higher level of protection.

Type II-A (9mm; .40 S&W). This armor protects against 9mm full metal jacketed round nose (FMJ RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 332 m/s (1090 ft/s) or less, and .40 S&W caliber full metal jacketed (FMJ) bullets, with nominal masses of 11.7 g (180 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 312 m/s (1025 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against Type I threats. Type II-A body armor is well suited for full-time use by police departments, particularly those seeking protection for their officers from lower velocity 9mm and 40 S&W ammunition.

Type II (9mm; .357 Magnum). This armor protects against 9mm full metal jacketed round nose (FMJ RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 358 m/s (1175 ft/s) or less, and .357 Magnum jacketed soft point (JSP) bullets, with nominal masses of 10.2 g (158 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 427 m/s (1400 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against Type I and Type IIA threats. Type II body armor is heavier and more bulky than either Types I or II-A. It is worn full time by officers seeking protection against higher velocity .357 Magnum and 9mm ammunition.

Type III-A (High Velocity 9mm; .44 Magnum). This armor protects against 9mm full metal jacketed round nose (FJM RN) bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 427 m/s (1400 ft/s) or less, and .44 Magnum jacketed hollow point (JHP) bullets, with nominal masses of 15.6 g (240 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 427 m/s (1400 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against most handgun threats, as well as the Type I, II-A, and II threats. Type III-A body armor provides the highest level of protection currently available from concealable body armor and is generally suitable for routine wear in many situations. However, users located in hot, humid climates may need to evaluate the use of Type III-A armor carefully.

Type III (Rifles). This armor protects against 7.62mm full metal jacketed (FMJ) bullets (U.S. military designation M80), with nominal masses of 9.6 g (148 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 838 m/s (2750 ft/s) or less. It also provides protection against Type I through III-A threats. Type III body armor is clearly intended only for tactical situations when the threat warrants such protection, such as barricade confrontations involving sporting rifles.

Type IV (Armor Piercing Rifle). This armor protects against .30 caliber armor piercing (AP) bullets (U.S. military designation M2 AP), with nominal masses of 10.8 g (166 gr), impacting at a minimum velocity of 869 m/s (2850 ft/s) or less. It also provides at least single-hit protection against the Type I through III threats. Type IV body armor provides the highest level of protection currently available. Because this armor is intended to resist “armor piercing” bullets, it often uses ceramic materials. Such materials are brittle in nature and may provide only single-shot protection, since the ceramic tends to break up when struck. As with Type III armor, Type IV armor is clearly intended only for tactical situations when the threat warrants such protection.

Bulletproof and bullet resistant vests NIJ Flexible Level III & IV High Power Rifle Body Armor, are subject to the export licensing authority of the U.S. Department of State, Office of Defense Trade Controls.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/body-armor.htm

Considering I'm not old enough to own a gun....

But theoretically, I'd go for either a Rem870 (or hell, a Pancor Jackhammer will work, too :D) 12 gauge, or if a handgun, any Baretta or Colt within the .38-.45 calibre range will do. (Headshot, or if you're daring and sadistic, blow out the kneecaps and shoulders as well as the groin area and let him bleed to death)

However, if the person is armed with a non-firearm, depending on the environment, I'd either use my rapier or my really big sword (I don't remember what it's called, but it is styled like the Katana, but instead of being 38'' - 42'', it's 66'' long).

Considering I'm not old enough to own a gun....

But theoretically, I'd go for either a Rem870 (or hell, a Pancor Jackhammer will work, too :D) 12 gauge, or if a handgun, any Baretta or Colt within the .38-.45 calibre range will do. (Headshot, or if you're daring and sadistic, blow out the kneecaps and shoulders as well as the groin area and let him bleed to death)

However, if the person is armed with a non-firearm, depending on the environment, I'd either use my rapier or my really big sword (I don't remember what it's called, but it is styled like the Katana, but instead of being 38'' - 42'', it's 66'' long).

i think i've heard of it. the one i'm thinking of is called a masamune, but that's also the name of the famous Japanese swordsmiths so...

i think i've heard of it. the one i'm thinking of is called a masamune, but that's also the name of the famous Japanese swordsmiths so...

Right -- as far as I know, a Masamune specifically refers to the swords made by or made in the exact style of one of their two famous legendary swordmakers (the other being the more infamous student of Masamune, Muramasa). I don't know much more than that, though.

Right -- as far as I know, a Masamune specifically refers to the swords made by or made in the exact style of one of their two famous legendary swordmakers (the other being the more infamous student of Masamune, Muramasa). I don't know much more than that, though.

actually, there's still a sowrdsmith in Japan known as the 20-somethingth Masamune. He's a direct descendent of the original.

actually, there's still a sowrdsmith in Japan known as the 20-somethingth Masamune. He's a direct descendent of the original.

REally? Awesome, I'll have to save up enough money and buy one. :D

Edit: Yay! 3500 posts, I'm a |>|-|33|250^^3 5|>4^^^^3|2, now! :D

A good stanza of Keats. Need more than that? Classless pansy.