NationStates Jolt Archive


China goes high-tech military; matchup versus US.

Eutrusca
17-11-2005, 17:02
COMMENTARY: China is in the process of becoming an imperial power, especially in Asia. What, if anything, the US should/will do about this is uncertain. One thing is sure: the Chinese are obsessed about Taiwan. IMHO, the US is making a mistake by not allowing China and Taiwan to negotiate some sort of compromise between an Independent Taiwan and a subject-state Taiwan. The US does not need to be in yet another conflict in Asia! [ I apologize for the length of this article, but this is what I consider to be one of the most important issues for the future of both the US and China. ]


Chinese build a high-tech army within an army (http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1117/p01s03-woap.html)

By Robert Marquand | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

BEIJING – Shi Jin wears a jean jacket, has razor-cropped hair, and seems gravely earnest. An officer in the People's Liberation Army, he was wooed from a Beijing vocational college three years ago by recruiters who talked up his technical aptitude - and his patriotism.

In the past decade, China has undergone two military high-tech reforms designed to give the country a modern fighting force. To sustain that progress, it must attract many more gung-ho young engineers like Shi, who spends most of his time working on an "informational" revolution that planners hope will one day allow them to "see" a battlefield with the same depth as the US military. "I will not do any direct fighting if there is a war, but I am contributing on the technical side," he says. "We are all needed in the new Army."

China's desire, often stated, is to be a great nation. Many in Beijing feel that the country's natural right is to be the major power in Asia. But China has rarely been given high marks in global military annals. It has a "brown water" Navy that doesn't navigate open seas. It can't project power by sending forces abroad. It has relied on states like Russia for jet fighters, cruise missiles, and other advanced weapons.

Yet it now appears China is methodically changing this equation.

In a surprisingly short time, China has accomplished two feats. One, it has focused its energy and wealth on creating an army within an army. It has devoted huge amounts of capital to create a small high-tech army within its old 2.2 million-member rifle and shoe-leather force.

The specialty of this modern force, about 15 percent of the PLA, is to conduct lightning attacks on smaller foes, using an all-out missile attack designed to paralyze, and a modern sea and air attack coordinated by high-tech communications. In other words, this new modern force is designed to attack Taiwan.

Second, China has taken painful but successful steps to create a "defense industrial base," or weapons-building capability. The PLA has improved its factory quality control and its ability to adapt foreign technology. It is bringing an indigenous small-wing F-10 fighter off the production line, and it is moving rapidly toward a "blue water" Navy with ships built in China.

Indeed, the past three years have yielded the impressive fruits of a modernization campaign started in the late 1990s: A nuclear attack submarine, the 093, launches in months; presumably it will be capable one day of firing satellite-guided cruise missiles that can blast a cruiser or carrier. China now has more accurate ICBMS, a host of land- and sea-based cruise missiles, and about 400 Su-27 and Su-30 Russian fighter jets it didn't have before.

"Do the old shibboleths still apply - that the Chinese defense industry is backward, poor, and low-quality?" asks Evan Medeiros, an analyst with the RAND Corp. in Washington, D.C.

"No," he says. "It seems China has turned the corner.... For the first time in 20 years, the PLA has adopted reforms that make sense. They adopted, and implemented, and are really learning quickly." Medeiros is lead author of a 300-page RAND study, "New Directions for China's Defense Industry," released this month.

"The PLA has undergone a revolution in communications," says James Mulvenon, of the Center for Intelligence Research and Analysis in Washington, D.C. "They have gone from dirt to wireless in a generation."

http://img427.imageshack.us/img427/6047/chinavsus3ns.gif (http://imageshack.us)


Taking China's power seriously

Such progress is catching attention, respect, and concern in the Pentagon. At Honolulu's US Pacific Command, and in military circles in Taiwan, Guam, and Tokyo, it is universally accepted that China is on its way to becoming a military challenge in Asia. US planners no longer talk dismissively of China's power or, potentially, its reach. In a key shift, US ability to quickly and easily defend Taiwan in an attack is no longer a given. Chinese cruise missiles are creating a more lethal environment in the Taiwan Straits.

This summer, Gen. Zhu Chenghu, dean of China's National Defense University, raised the subject of weapons of mass destruction, which China rarely mentions, in connection with Taiwan. Should US forces aid Taiwan in a war, he told bewildered US visitors, "Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds ... of cities will be destroyed by Chinese" nuclear weapons.

Coming to Taiwan's rescue "used to be a political decision," says Denny Roy, an expert on cross-straits relations at the Asia-Pacific Center for Security Studies (APCSS) in Honolulu. "Now it is a political and a military decision."

Yet while China may have turned a corner, tomorrow's Monitor story looks at how China's military prowess runs far short of the doomsday trend lines. China's military has not "leapfrogged" into modern warfighting in the way many alarmists in the US often loudly suggest.

Perceptions about a "China threat" have taken several sharp turns in the past 24 months. One came in 2004, as it appeared Beijing was making progress on not one but three submarine programs, including the 093. A Sovremenny class destroyer, one of four new Chinese-made destroyers appeared out of the blue. China was laying fiber-optic cable around the country; it was developing a capability at the heart of high-tech warfare called C4ISR (the interlocking sets of missile targeting and tracking known as command, control, communications, computers, intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance).

Then last winter, as Europe prepared to lift an arms embargo on China, the Pentagon took more than passing note. Seminars, papers, blogs, and defense reporting registered stepped-up amazement at China's progress: Chinese cruise missiles made US carriers more vulnerable. The word spread that selling NATO-compatible European weapons would give Chinese engineers a way to inductively figure out how US equipment ticks.

But months later, a strong "get real" school emerged, arguing that the threat was being hyped. A great gap exists between obtaining hardware and being an effective modern army, it was posited.

A major moment came this July in a Defense Department review on the PLA. While criticized as soft by hawks, the report hit especially hard due to a comment that China's buildup now appears to go past just an effort to invade Taiwan. Rather, it stated that China was modernizing its forces with the intent of longer range operations and "regional contingencies."

Some Pentagon sources told the Monitor that the Defense Department report was toned down, basically "because you have to try and work with the Chinese."

"They are buying and developing capability whose only use is against the US military," said an Asia-based US Air Force colonel. "The programs we can see are designed to combat a carrier battle group. Who is it that has carrier battle groups?"

In August, days after a Sino-Russian military exercise, China ordered a complement of Russian bomber refueling planes whose main use is to project power.

The US response to China has shifted as well in the past half year. This spring, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said in Singapore that China's military rise was illegitimate because China faced no threats. This point was seen as tactically clumsy even in Pentagon circles. "We [the US] spend $400 billion on defense. We don't have the right to decide other nations' threats," commented a career defense official in Washington.

By last month, during Mr. Rumsfeld's visit to Beijing, the defense chief had changed his public tune: China has the right to develop whatever military it wants, he said. But if China intends a long march to match US capability, more transparency is needed to avoid dangerous misunderstandings.

"One place where more information would be helpful to us and other countries is China's military developments," Rumsfeld told his counterpart, Gen. Cao Gangchuan. "China is expanding its ballistic-missile forces and those forces can reach many areas of the world, well beyond the Pacific. Those advances ... give cause for concern, particularly when there is an imperfect understanding about such developments...."

What's China's military budget?

In particular, the Pentagon is concerned about how much China spends, and what it is buying. China's exact military spending is shrouded. US experts say it spends $50 to $90 billion annually. Yet Defense Minister Gangchuan insisted to Rumsfeld that the figure is about $27 billion. Days later, the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies noted that China's purchase of Russian equipment alone nearly matched the Chinese official estimate; the IISS says China is at $62.5 billion.

Experts like Medeiros argue that China's spending has in part given Chinese engineers the capacity to better adapt foreign technology, and to create its own hybrid technology. China's Shenzhou space capsule (recently returned from manned orbit), China's new destroyers, and its fighter jets - are all former Russian platforms. China's new F-10 jet is an example of an indigenous fighter that performs well.

"The F-10 is full of foreign equipment and technologies," Medeiros says. "It has Israeli avionics, Russian engines, European landing gear. China is gradually reducing its reliance on components and subcomponents from other countries. It can increasingly build such goods its own."

For years, Chinese industry seemed unable to build a decent propulsion system. But Medeiros shows they may soon have a turbo-fan engine for ships and planes. "They never did propulsion well, but they are finally producing such engines," he says.

PLA dollars have also stimulated a "blue water" Navy program that hit its stride last year, according to Taipei defense expert Andrew Yang. "We are seeing them simultaneously build different types of ships. They use a modular frame and load it with [their own] systems," he says.

Frigates, destroyers, and amphibious landing ships are all being built and designed with a new confidence, Mr. Yang says. Navy yards may employ a Russian hull design, but the ships' guts are designed to new Chinese specs.

"The destroyers and frigates, are getting bigger and bigger," Yang adds. "Six to seven tons. That is what you build for a long distance Navy...."

"There's been a sea change in the Pentagon's [view], a lot more respect for what Chinese industry can do," says Bates Gill, at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, D.C.

Taiwan especially is a place where China has succeeded in getting US attention. Despite Taiwan's 60 years of separate development, China views the island as its own territory. A conflict with Taiwan would be especially dangerous since, for internal political reasons, China can't start a war over Taiwan that it cannot win. A military loss over Taiwan could cause a collapse of the party in Beijing.

In order to win, China has designed a missile strike on Taiwan and a cruise missile attack on US ships that would be so colossal that US leaders will delay a decision to rescue, giving China time to take hold. China's nuclear threat this summer was a message to US forces that should a fight commence over Taiwan, the Pentagon may no longer be able to assume a conventional war over the island.

"They may be taking away US assumptions of a war that would escalate in stages," says Mr. Roy of APCSS in Honolulu.

In a conventional war, says Col. Michael Boera, a wing commander in Guam, his nightmare would be so many missiles or planes that even if his pilots could shoot them down, "they would keep coming.... I fear them numbers-wise. Where I am fighting too many planes, that's my concern."

"The PLA is getting in a position to considerably constrain our freedom of maneuver," says Roy. "We can't expect that we can completely protect a carrier battle group when it got into theater."

Pentagon officers are fond of saying that China is at a military crossroads. It must decide its size, capability, and whether it will begin to share its secrets with the US.

But the US is also at a crossroads in terms of its response and its relations with Asia. So far, the US has said it wants to work with China, keeping at bay those hawks who feel that China is a certain enemy.

Historically, in fact, China is not an aggressor. It rarely attacks. But then, what is called "China" has moved only in the late 20th century from a sprawling "civilization" to a nation in the modern sense. Moreover, the sense of national pride in China is powerful. As one rather liberal intellectual told the Monitor, "In our hearts, most of us want China to be great - we feel deeply a desire to help run Asia and the world."

What concerns some American China experts is that creating a modern army will also create the dynamic to use a modern army. Analysts like Mulvenon point to possible unintended consequences of a buildup.

"What I worry about is the military influencing foreign policy," he says, "[decisionmakers] using the military they have paid so much for like a tool in their kit ... as leverage in certain situations.... That can be how bad things get started."
The Abomination
17-11-2005, 17:18
Oh crap!

I see two possibilities:

A: Taiwan is screwed. So totally screwed.

B: The US is gonna need to get pre-emptive on the chi-comms ass.

Option A is by far the most likely. I can't see the US risking mushroom clouds over Los Angeles for any country, let alone a mere principle.
Portu Cale MK3
17-11-2005, 17:25
Well, in parts:

1) Taiwan Independence. If the US wants to keep Taiwan away from China, it should start NOW to back Taiwanese independence, instead of rebuffing. Why now? Because it can still have a hope of winning a war against China, but those hopes will fade away as time goes by.

2) Chinese regional power. Well, for most part, China is already a regional power, and the regional leader. No one in Asia would dare attack China, and Chinese position is extremely strong in that area.

3) Chinese Global Power. Well, this is the tricky part, were the article is quite good. China can forseeable become a world power, but they have been a world power several times in the past, and that didnt made them fearsome conquerors, on the contrary. Yet, times have changed, and China might become a little more hostile. Still, unlike a conflict over taiwan, if china tried to have an excedengly stronger role in world affairs, Europe (plus russia) would support the US (yes, we still like you more with bush than china), and that would balance things a bit.

4) Resources. One other danger of a strong China is the competition over resources. You can see this over Iran.. Iran is selling a shit load of oil to China, it is foreseable that an attack of washington against Iran would be responded by China. This could be extended to other things, like markets for products, etc..

5) India. At current growth rates, India will have more population than China soon. They, if work to overcome their problems, can surely become to services what china is today for industry. And they also have high tech at their disposal, and every reasoning you make for china you can make for India, except offcourse that India has problems over Kashmir, and it is a democracy :P
Deep Kimchi
17-11-2005, 17:27
I would see an India-China war coming before a US-China war.
Drunk commies deleted
17-11-2005, 17:27
China would get much more than it bargained for by annexing Taiwan. Imagine the sudden introduction of millions of people who have been free and are now bound by communist ideology. I see a revolution or at least a determined armed insurgency comming out of that.

Let China have Taiwan. Nothing fails like success.
Falhaar2
17-11-2005, 17:33
I'm really not too concerned about China at the moment. Not as an external threat anyway. They're still roughly 15 years behind the western world in terms of military technology and I forsee some major shit going down domestically there within the next decade or so.

I think a lot of this talk by the media is scare-mongering and painting China as a huge threat, on equal footing with the U.S., which it clearly isn't and probably won't be for at least 50 years.

The Chinese Government is thankfully not as borderline retarded/psychopathic as Mao Zedong and realises that any current attempt to annex Taiwan would end in brutal failure and their recently resurgent economy going down the crapper.

BTW, here's a nice non-biased site on China's military capabilities. Updated roughly once a week.

http://www.sinodefence.com/
Neu Leonstein
18-11-2005, 01:15
And I still think the embargo from the EU isn't helping anyone.

It drives down the stock of firms like Rheinmetall and Dessault, it obviously doesn't stop the Chinese from building their own, and it's against Free Trade.

Give the Chinese some Leopards, Eurofighters and Harriers and Tiger Helicopters etc. In a few years they'll have them copied anyways.

Here's an article about the nature of the current Chinese Leader, Hu Jin-Tao.
A Technocrat Riding a Wild Tiger (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,384155,00.html)

And one about how China does its growing at the moment
Cheap, Cheerful and Chinese? (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,385446,00.html)
Baked Hippies
18-11-2005, 01:22
I believe the US military would kick China's ass still because of the elite training every man and woman go through to get into the armed forces. Plus we have the most powerful navy and airforce imaginabel. I'm not trying to brag. I don't want to brag about things that kill people. Yet if a war comes the US would certainly win in my eyes. Numbers will not mean a lot in the future because of how much techonology and death a single soldier in the United States can produce. It's quite amazing. The Future Warrior project and the new xm8 assault rifle is very amazing. The new equipment the US military will be getting in 2010.
Ftagn
18-11-2005, 01:35
I believe the US military would kick China's ass still because of the elite training every man and woman go through to get into the armed forces. Plus we have the most powerful navy and airforce imaginabel. I'm not trying to brag. I don't want to brag about things that kill people. Yet if a war comes the US would certainly win in my eyes. Numbers will not mean a lot in the future because of how much techonology and death a single soldier in the United States can produce. It's quite amazing. The Future Warrior project and the new xm8 assault rifle is very amazing. The new equipment the US military will be getting in 2010.

They canceled the XM-8, btw. As well as the OICW (XM-29). I'm not sure what they're gonna use instead.

And have you looked at the new tanks and "armored" vehicles they're making?
"Hey, I have an idea! Let's take all the armor off our main battle tank, give it wheels, and put a huge ETC gun on it! It'd be perfect!"
Those Stryker vehicles are deathtraps enough...

Not that we wouldn't kick their ass...
Jenrak
18-11-2005, 02:03
China is still behind quite a bit, but still people are underestimating China's resolve and it's power. Pump over 50 years worth of propoganda into over a billion population and you have people who are willing to do anything to make sure China does as much damage as possible.

I doubt China will wage war against the US. I do believe that they will take some drastic (if not military) action to regain Taiwan.
Great Britain---
18-11-2005, 02:04
Anyone worried that IF China attacks Taiwan that it may direct its military focus towards Australia which has a lot of land and a sparse population.
Jenrak
18-11-2005, 02:06
Anyone worried that IF China attacks Taiwan that it may direct its military focus towards Australia which has a lot of land and a sparse population.

Pft. No one's going to attack good ol' Australia. I mean, what kind of senseless monster would do that?
Neu Leonstein
18-11-2005, 02:09
Pft. No one's going to attack good ol' Australia. I mean, what kind of senseless monster would do that?
[Southern US Accent]Terrorist would[/Southern US Accent]
;)

Meh, I don't think China is really after attacking Taiwan. It's important to keep up the show, and having a modern and mobile military helps either way.

As for any problems with Taiwan being integrated, I'd think they'd simply declare it a special economic zone, in which things stay as they have been. There's plenty of those zones on the mainland already.
Righteous Munchee-Love
18-11-2005, 02:12
This might touch the thread only tangentially, but:

The PLA is some 2.2 millions strong, with 10% being high-tech equipped.
How big exactly are the US armed forced combined, and how many fire arms are in circulation among the US population?
Since I guess there´s nothing like a 2. amendment in China, it seems to me this might be an important factor concerning invasions of one kind or another.
Volkodlak
18-11-2005, 02:21
I would say that the conflict with china and the us would never become an invasion on either side. To be realistic, it would be a world war, and it would be a long and expensive war at that.

I would think that an invasion of China would be met with extreme resolve against it. China may not be a 'free' nation, but nothing unites a nation like an outside attack. We have seen how invasions of small countries have taken years and years, even when the 'defending' nation is over matched 3 to 1, get odds that are closer to 1 on 1, and you have problems

An invasion of the United States would be nearly impossible without the use of nuclear arms because once again, nothing unites a populace then an outside attack, even more so with one that challenges the very fiber of 'freedom' as it is taught in the US. That and most allies of the United States would be quick to defend, and airforce powers and naval powers would protect the sea front, and its doubtful that canada or mexico would be too keen on china using them as a land base.

what will most likely happen is a bunch of argueing in political channels, until someone pays the right amount of money and everyone goes home 'happy'.

Taiwan is just a pawn in all of this. Its not really about what is best for Taiwan, its who has the biggest flex.
Greater Valia
18-11-2005, 03:01
-mega snip-

Wow, that really got a laugh out of me. If the US ever got into a war with China our navy would stomp all over them while our vastly superior air force would harass them from the sky. We'd probably fight a war of containment trying to keep the Chinese in China (not that hard btw) since all of their technology is state of the art for about 1978. Not even bringing up the fact that their navy is very very pitiful and would be destroyed in the earlier weeks of the war.
Neu Leonstein
18-11-2005, 03:02
Wow, that really got a laugh out of me...
And now you can start reading the article...it's precisely about addressing those issues!
Jenrak
18-11-2005, 03:47
Wow, that really got a laugh out of me. If the US ever got into a war with China our navy would stomp all over them while our vastly superior air force would harass them from the sky. We'd probably fight a war of containment trying to keep the Chinese in China (not that hard btw) since all of their technology is state of the art for about 1978. Not even bringing up the fact that their navy is very very pitiful and would be destroyed in the earlier weeks of the war.

China's military is for defense. It's got an unbreakable brown water defense force with nearly no offense for the pacific. You're underestimating China to a fairly large extent, which is what the Japanese did during World War II. And despite that, China still pushed off the Japanese from China.
Ekland
18-11-2005, 04:04
Meh, with the Objective Force Warrior (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/ofw.htm) program potentially set to be fielded by 2012 any progress China may make by then will still be moot in comparison.
Jenrak
18-11-2005, 04:16
Meh, with the Objective Force Warrior (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/ofw.htm) program potentially set to be fielded by 2012 any progress China may make by then will still be moot in comparison.

What if China develops something of it's own as well?
Aryavartha
18-11-2005, 04:17
I would see an India-China war coming before a US-China war.

There won't be any direct war between India and China. In another few years China will displace US and become India's largest trading partner.

And there won't be a Sino - US war either.

But there will be showdowns with the Chinese proxies in the neighborhood.
Omz222
18-11-2005, 04:25
In the event of a war between China and the US, the results are already obvious. While an invasion of China by the US would be unthinkable and would still result in an (eventual) Chinese victory, the US forces still has clear superiority in the fields of naval and air assets. However, the question is - what will the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of American soldiers, sailors, and airmen prove to the American public?

This is something to think about, especially when such may become possible regardless of whether if the Chinese will be defeated in the end (which is a possibility, though one needs to consider the other side of the war as well, i.e. the losses taht will be suffered by the US forces & possibility their allies).
Sel Appa
18-11-2005, 04:49
To Empire Earth expansion pack owners:
So when do you think we'll see UFAR?

To all else:
People are denying China's power because they don't want to believe the US could lose its grip. Like in the Holocaust. No one wants to believe it and some deny it happening for that reason.
Melkor Unchained
18-11-2005, 04:53
I would see an India-China war coming before a US-China war.
And this wouldn't turn into an India-China-US war how? If there is one thing you can always count on the State Department for, it's unneccesary meddling, and that's precisely what this is. If China fucks with Taiwan or India, you can bet we'll be there, bloody tampon in hand, bitching up a storm about it. Mark my words: The US will never consider staying out of any major Asian conficlt. Just not gonna happen.
Greater Valia
18-11-2005, 05:06
And now you can start reading the article...it's precisely about addressing those issues!

I did read the article. But its pathetic that the Chinese have to reverse-engineer a defunct Soviet Aircraft Carrier in order to build their own. Any technology coming out of China is state of the art.... for over twenty years ago.
Neu Leonstein
18-11-2005, 05:16
I did read the article. But its pathetic that the Chinese have to reverse-engineer a defunct Soviet Aircraft Carrier in order to build their own. Any technology coming out of China is state of the art.... for over twenty years ago.
You do realise what they did with that Carrier? They planned to build a casino with it.

Rest assured that the Chinese engineer is just as smart as the American one - and reverse engineering has already helped the Japanese in the '50s and '60s and you know where that led.
It's part of having to catch up that you need to learn the basics first. And if you did read the article, you'll have read that the new F-10 fighter has all the new gizmos (Israeli electronics etc). It's Capitalism, and they have the dollars.
Greater Valia
18-11-2005, 05:23
You do realise what they did with that Carrier? They planned to build a casino with it.

Doesn't change the fact that engineers are constantly at the site presumably doing a rather fine job of taking notes.

Rest assured that the Chinese engineer is just as smart as the American one - and reverse engineering has already helped the Japanese in the '50s and '60s and you know where that led.
It's part of having to catch up that you need to learn the basics first. And if you did read the article, you'll have read that the new F-10 fighter has all the new gizmos (Israeli electronics etc). It's Capitalism, and they have the dollars.

I never claimed the Chinese engineer was stupid, but it seems they have a fixation with stealing technology from other nations instead of natively producing anything that is on par with anything the west has. (EU, US)

And as to the Jian-10 fighter. I find it disturbing that it looks so much like the Eurofighter 2000. And it is still no match for the F-22.
Neu Leonstein
18-11-2005, 05:35
I never claimed the Chinese engineer was stupid, but it seems they have a fixation with stealing technology from other nations instead of natively producing anything that is on par with anything the west has. (EU, US)
They'll get to that in a few years. You have to build the foundations before you can start with the house.
And besides, it's not stealing - it's a legitimate method of learning new things.

And as to the Jian-10 fighter. I find it disturbing that it looks so much like the Eurofighter 2000. And it is still no match for the F-22.
I don't think it's meant to be.
The idea is probably to have a few hundred of them up at once, which will take care of the enemy planes by sheer virtue of numbers. Add to that a good number of Cruise Missiles, and it is a proper strategy which may very well work.

As for the Eurofighter...meh, that's old news already. The French are building a new fancy-looking thing that might develop into something to replace it in time. I bet the Chinese would also be interested...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Neuron

EDIT: Oh, and before I forget...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-XX :D
Marrakech II
18-11-2005, 05:41
Anyone worried that IF China attacks Taiwan that it may direct its military focus towards Australia which has a lot of land and a sparse population.

China would be a smoldering ember if they dared attacked Australia. I doubt it would even be a viable consideration for China to do such a thing.
Marrakech II
18-11-2005, 05:44
And this wouldn't turn into an India-China-US war how? If there is one thing you can always count on the State Department for, it's unneccesary meddling, and that's precisely what this is. If China fucks with Taiwan or India, you can bet we'll be there, bloody tampon in hand, bitching up a storm about it. Mark my words: The US will never consider staying out of any major Asian conficlt. Just not gonna happen.

Absolutely correct. The US would make a reason if it had to. The stakes are to high in Asia not to be involved. Would be a bloody mess though. I get shivers thinking of the casualty rates.
Falhaar2
18-11-2005, 05:58
China would be a smoldering ember if they dared attacked Australia. I doubt it would even be a viable consideration for China to do such a thing. What about if another nation attacked? Say one starting with "I" and ending with "nesia"?
The Goa uld
18-11-2005, 06:00
What about if another nation attacked? Say one starting with "I" and ending with "nesia"?
You're kidding right? Indonesia doesn't even have a navy worth mentioning, much less have the capabilities to launch an invasion or attack in anyway a first world power.
Neu Leonstein
18-11-2005, 06:06
What about if another nation attacked? Say one starting with "I" and ending with "nesia"?
Oh yes, the last remnant of the "White Australia" policy...the everlasting fear of Indonesia.

Rest assured that Indonesia will not attack Australia, and if it did it would get its arse kicked by ANZUS.
Falhaar2
18-11-2005, 06:07
You're kidding right? Indonesia doesn't even have a navy worth mentioning, much less have the capabilities to launch an invasion or attack in anyway a first world power.What they do have is numbers, and craploads of them. The Australian military, whilst comparatively high-tech, is direly low on numbers. Indonesia is the only nation that really worries me in terms of potential conflict due totheir closeness and their numbers.

I just hope all that U.S. ass-kissing would pay off.
Falhaar2
18-11-2005, 06:09
Oh yes, the last remnant of the "White Australia" policy...the everlasting fear of Indonesia. Dude, believe me. I'm hardly a jingoistic nationalist. In pratical terms, however, this is the only nation that would currently even remotely have a chance to attack us.

Not saying it's likely, just sayin'...
Neu Leonstein
18-11-2005, 06:13
Not saying it's likely, just sayin'...
Indonesia doesn't have the same sort of funds at its disposal that China has, so any meaningful modernisation of its military is many years away.
At this point, they may have heaps of people, but unless you teach them to swim long and hard, they're no good at attacking Oz. Indonesia doesn't have that kind of force projection.
And finally, even the most insane of Indonesian governments knows that it needs international goodwill if it is to keep the various rebel groups down. Attacking a Western country which has a direct military alliance with the US is not a good idea in that case.

And now back to the topic at hand...:p
FireAntz
18-11-2005, 06:27
THIS (http://www.f22-raptor.com/technology/index.html) + THIS (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/cv.htm) helps me sleep well at night.

A fleet of Carriers, loaded with Raptors would take any chance China would ever have of projecting themselves onto the world stage in a war. Full Stealth capabilities, the ability to "Supercruise" at Mach 1.74 , and Thrust Vectoring that assures it can outmaneuver any other aircraft on the planet, not to mention the ability to outrun any aircraft on the planet.

Only nuclear war would make me think China could ever have a chance. And in that scenario, nobody wins. They just better hope they've taken better care of theirs than we have.
Neu Leonstein
18-11-2005, 06:32
THIS (http://www.f22-raptor.com/technology/index.html) + THIS (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/cv.htm) helps me sleep well at night.
I've got two things as well...:D

How to take out the US Fleet. (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8558.htm)

How the Chinese are going to do it. (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24385)