NationStates Jolt Archive


Those who sacrifice liberty for security...

Dassenko
17-11-2005, 12:25
The following article from The Guardian raises the issue of the trade-off between liberty and security in the West in recent years. It draws the conclusion that we're sacrificing too many of our liberties, an opinion I concur with. There's nothing especially new in this essay, I suspect, and certainly I disagree with the writer's apparent faith in ID cards, but I feel the crux of the argument is important enough to bring to your attention.

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1644028,00.html)

The forward march of liberty has been halted - even reversed

Britain, America and France have all reduced civil liberties since the twin towers fell. But has this made us any safer?

Timothy Garton Ash
Thursday November 17, 2005
The Guardian

The erosion of liberty. Four words sum up four years. Since the attacks of September 11 2001, we have seen an erosion of liberty in most established democracies. If he's still alive, Osama bin Laden must be laughing into his beard. For this is exactly what al-Qaida-type terrorists want: that democracies should overreact, reveal their "true" oppressive face, and therefore win more recruits to the suicide bombers' cause. We should not play his game. In the always difficult trade-off between liberty and security, we are erring too much on the side of security. Worse still: we are becoming less safe as a result.

How different it all looked a few years ago, at the turn of the century. One American writer summarised the outcome of the titanic ideological struggles of the 20th century thus: "freedom won". Simplistic, premature triumphalism, perhaps, but the last three decades of the past century did see an extraordinary spread of freedom, from Greece, Portugal and Spain throwing off their juntas and dictators, through Latin America turning to democracy and velvet revolutions in the Philippines, central Europe and South Africa, right up to the toppling of Slobodan Milosevic. For lovers of liberty, history seemed to be going our way. In Britain, the advent of Tony Blair brought promises of constitutional reform and more freedom of information, as well as the writing of European rights guarantees into national law in the Human Rights Act. It looked as if we would become more free.

Then came the fall of the twin towers in New York - the true beginning of the 21st century. Ever since, we have been going either sideways or backwards, as we struggle to respond to a real threat. We got off on the wrong foot on the very first day. As America's former anti-terrorism chief Richard Clarke records, when George Bush was reminded of the constraints of international law on the evening of September 11 2001, the president of the United States yelled: "I don't care what the international lawyers say, we are going to kick some ass."

Kicking ass, as it turns out, meant not just the invasion of Iraq but also Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo and, it now emerges, probably other secret prison facilities where people were held, and tortured, in a lawless limbo. Vice-president Cheney is reportedly fighting hard to exempt the CIA from a law, proposed by the conservative Republican and former prisoner of war John McCain, that would ban all American forces and agencies from using torture. At home, the USA Patriot Act allows routine invasions of privacy and curtailments of civil liberties that would never have passed before September 11. The words of America, the Beautiful - "Confirm thy soul in self-control/Thy liberty in law" -seem to have been forgotten in the "global war on terror"; or, as Bush put it, in kicking ass.

Unfortunately, this country, which was a beacon of liberty before the US was even invented - if you doubt this, read Voltaire's letters about his time in England, published in 1734 - has followed suit. After the entirely justified invasion of Afghanistan, we gave a patina of international legitimacy to the unjustified invasion of Iraq. There our own armed forces seem to have been reduced, in circumstances of extreme duress, to some practices of which we can hardly be proud. At home, we have seen successive tightenings of the anti-terrorism legislation - or, to put it another way, successive erosions of the Human Rights Act, and of other, older individual freedoms secured by common law, such as habeas corpus. This culminated in the proposal that terrorist suspects should be held for 90 days without charge. Legislation to outlaw the "glorification" of terrorism and a misguided attempt to protect Muslims by criminalising an ill-defined "incitement to religious hatred" both threaten free speech. And so we find ourselves in the surreal position of depending on unelected lords, and the Conservatives, for the defence of our liberties.

Meanwhile, across the Channel, France has just extended the applicability of a "state of emergency" from 12 days to three months. The direct cause is different, but the effect is also an erosion of freedom. The interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, is threatening to send rioting youths back to their "country of origin" - even though they have never lived there, may not have anyone to look after them there and may not even speak the language. The French detainees from Guantánamo were brought back, only to be locked up again in France. The French republican banning of the Islamic headscarf in schools is another, relatively mild but symbolically important - and, in my view, wholly counterproductive - infringement of an individual freedom.

So in all three classic lands of western liberty, America, France and Britain, we have witnessed an erosion of liberty. Of course, we should not be naive. As we saw in London on July 7, and before that in Madrid and Bali and New York, these are new and horrible kinds of threat. As the liberal philosopher Isaiah Berlin always reminded us, we cannot have all good things at once. We have to make trade-offs between desirable public goods, and the trade-off between liberty and security is one of the most basic in all politics. The totalitarianisms of the 20th century promised more security in return for less liberty. In liberal democracies, we generally accept less security in return for more liberty.

Faced with jihadist suicide bombers, we must reconsider and perhaps adjust the balance. Irritating though they are, I assume that tighter security controls at airports, railway stations and public buildings are necessary. Unlike many liberals, I also think identity cards may help, provided (and this is a big "if") they work properly and we have effective controls over the information stored on them. When I read that MI5 are recruiting 800 more spies to combat the threat of Islamist terrorism, I am disturbed - but I can see the argument for it. But in every case, we need to be convinced that the reduction of liberty will bring a commensurate increase in security.

What is unforgivable is the measure that makes us at once less free and less safe. Lately, we've been getting too many of those: actions designed to prevent suicide bombers that end up creating more of them. Delivering the Isaiah Berlin lecture in Oxford the other day, the American philosopher Allen Wood observed that "the death sentence is no use against suicide bombers". This was not just a somewhat black philosophical joke; it also contains a deeper truth. As Sir Ian Blair, the commissioner of the Metropolitan police, has just reminded us, the larger challenge for policing, but also for post-9/11 western policy altogether, is to help to create conditions in which people don't become suicide bombers in the first place.

There may be a lesson here from the past century. That American writer's two-word summary - "freedom won" - was actually not far wrong. It wasn't any of the CIA's covert assassinations or dirty tricks that won the cold war. It was the magnetic example of free, prosperous and law-abiding societies. That was worth a thousand nuclear bombs or stealth bombers. No weapon known to man is more powerful than liberty in law.
Dassenko
17-11-2005, 15:18
Sigh. One bump, then I give up.
Deep Kimchi
17-11-2005, 15:21
Sigh. One bump, then I give up.

People who argue for the Second Amendment in the United States have been saying this for years.

We knew that once they successfully attacked the right to bear arms, they would attack all the other rights.
Dassenko
17-11-2005, 15:26
People who argue for the Second Amendment in the United States have been saying this for years.

We knew that once they successfully attacked the right to bear arms, they would attack all the other rights.
Has there been a successful attack? And I don't see a strong link here even if there has.
Deep Kimchi
17-11-2005, 15:27
I, like the person who testified in the following
http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/testimon.htm

believe that the Second Amendment is talking about an individual right.

Many people who today think that our other rights are under attack have laid the precedence for doing so - for the language that specified an individual right was twisted in meaning so that the right could be abrogated by the government.

In their zeal to undo an individual right, they made it possible for the legislature to do the same to other individual rights, simply by passing legislation.
Dassenko
17-11-2005, 15:28
I, like the person who testified in the following
http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/beararms/testimon.htm

believe that the Second Amendment is talking about an individual right.

Many people who today think that our other rights are under attack have laid the precedence for doing so - for the language that specified an individual right was twisted in meaning so that the right could be abrogated by the government.

In their zeal to undo an individual right, they made it possible for the legislature to do the same to other individual rights, simply by passing legislation.
I don't think this has any bearing on the actions of the French and British governments, though.
Deep Kimchi
17-11-2005, 15:32
I don't think this has any bearing on the actions of the French and British governments, though.
It is relevant here in the US, though.

Emboldened by the success of laws limiting, indeed violating, the individual right to bear arms in our Constitution, there are new laws we've passed that seem to deny us the other individual rights and protections in our Constitution.

Not that anyone has amended the Constitution to eliminate those, but they pass laws and wave their hands and act like it's good and normal to do so.

Does France have a bill of rights in their Constitution?
My Dressing Gown
17-11-2005, 15:36
It is relevant here in the US, though.

Emboldened by the success of laws limiting, indeed violating, the individual right to bear arms in our Constitution, there are new laws we've passed that seem to deny us the other individual rights and protections in our Constitution.

Not that anyone has amended the Constitution to eliminate those, but they pass laws and wave their hands and act like it's good and normal to do so.

Does France have a bill of rights in their Constitution?

no, but France isn't being run by the so called "Christian(yeah)Right"
Deep Kimchi
17-11-2005, 15:39
no, but France isn't being run by the so called "Christian(yeah)Right"

It's the Democrats that want to take away the right to keep and bear arms. But the desire to remove our rights is not restricted to one side of the aisle or another. The way has been paved for others to take away the rest of the rights.

Political theorists as dissimilar as Niccolo Machiavelli, Sir Thomas More, James Harrington, Algernon Sidney, John Locke, and Jean-Jacques Rousseau all shared the view that the possession of arms is vital for resisting tyranny, and that to be disarmed by one's government is tantamount to being enslaved by it. The possession of arms by the people is the ultimate warrant that government governs only with the consent of the governed. As Kates has shown, the Second Amendment is as much a product of this political philosophy as it is of the American experience in the Revolutionary War.

The problem seems to lie in certain cultural traits shared by our conservative and liberal elites.

One such trait is an abounding faith in the power of the word. The failure of our conservative elite to defend the Second Amendment stems in great measure from an overestimation of the power of the rights set forth in the First Amendment, and a general undervaluation of action. Implicit in calls for the repeal of the Second Amendment is the assumption that our First Amendment rights are sufficient to preserve our liberty. The belief is that liberty can be preserved as long as men freely speak their minds; that there is no tyranny or abuse that can survive being exposed in the press; and that the truth need only be disclosed for the culprits to be shamed. The people will act, and the truth shall set us, and keep us, free.

History is not kind to this belief, tending rather to support the view of Hobbes, Machiavelli, and other theorists that only people willing and able to defend themselves can preserve their liberties. While it may be tempting and comforting to believe that the existence of mass electronic communication has forever altered the balance of power between the state and its subjects, the belief has certainly not been tested by time, and what little history there is in the age of mass communication is not especially encouraging. The camera, radio, and press are mere tools and, like guns, can be used for good or ill. Hitler, after all, was a masterful orator, used radio to very good effect, and is well known to have pioneered and exploited the propaganda opportunities afforded by film. And then, of course, there were the Brownshirts, who knew very well how to quell dissent among intellectuals.
Czardas
17-11-2005, 15:45
And there is also the issue that freedom and security can and do coexist. When you have freedom of thought and expression -- and the right to privacy -- you have greater security, because it's less likely that your identity will be stolen, or that the government will have you disappear from your house at night etc. I think you need to change the title to "national security" because "individual" or "financial" security comes hand in hand with freedom...
Deep Kimchi
17-11-2005, 15:53
Laws concerning restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms (gun laws), or the right to free assembly (anti-terror conspiracy laws), or the right to free speech (hate speech laws), fall into the category of pre-emptive laws.

The unspoken objective of pre-emptive laws is to reduce the need for self-restraint and personal responsibility. If people do not have the means to harm each other, it is no longer important for them to control their tempers or act politely. We are asking the government to protect us from ourselves so that we can be freed from that responsibility. This might seem like a logical plan, especially to lazy slackers who aren't willing to assume the basic duties of a free person.

One flaw in the logic is that laws themselves do not prevent crime. Laws work when most individuals choose to respect the law and exercise self-restraint. Unfortunately, the violent people we fear are lacking in those basic virtues. That is why pre-emptive laws are ineffective. They are nothing more than a political tool to satisfy the emotional needs of the electorate and they have a corrosive effect on personal values.

One might examine the current plague of zero tolerance rules in schools by comparing them to the ancient custom of human sacrifice. Even though it makes no sense to punish a student for a harmless act, they must suffer for the good of the entire group. Our Patriot Act, where the government can sift through the records of every library in the country on demand, sacrifices the rights of millions of innocent readers for the good of the entire group.

Sadly, we are teaching our youth that ethical and moral behavior is secondary to obeying every rule, no matter how silly or onerous. There is also little incentive to teach independent thinking or a sense of personal honor when so many aspects of daily life are prescribed by law.
Gift-of-god
17-11-2005, 15:53
Right, so getting back to the OP and ignoring the UScentric gun discussion, it is appalling that people would continue to support governments that are actively destabilising the Middle east, and thereby crating more terrorists.

Yes, the invasion of Afghanistan was important,and if it had been followed through properly, would probably have resulted in a useful front in the War on Terror. But curtailing civil liberties by government makes those governments appear to be no better than the dictators they depose.

For many Iraqis, the USA and the rest of the Coalition of the Willing, with its collateral damage, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, black sites, arbitrary detention, etc. looks no better than Saddam Hussein. One could argue about the veracity of this view, but from a realpolitik perspective, it doesn't matter whether or not it's true. What matters is that people being recruited into terror organisations believe it is true.

We have sacrificed liberties in return for less security.
Deep Kimchi
17-11-2005, 15:56
Right, so getting back to the OP and ignoring the UScentric gun discussion, it is appalling that people would continue to support governments that are actively destabilising the Middle east, and thereby crating more terrorists.

If you read my last post, you'll find out that I am not speaking from a US centric point of view. I'm talking about fundamental rights, regardless of what nation you're in.
Gift-of-god
17-11-2005, 16:00
If you read my last post, you'll find out that I am not speaking from a US centric point of view. I'm talking about fundamental rights, regardless of what nation you're in.

And if you read the bit you quoted, you will notice that I was talking about the gun discussion being UScentric.
Deep Kimchi
17-11-2005, 16:11
And if you read the bit you quoted, you will notice that I was talking about the gun discussion being UScentric.

Gosh, that's because I can't separate the right to keep and bear arms from the other rights.

Just like the Founding Fathers over here...

Sometime between 1763 and 1803, the same right disappeared in England by passing subordinate laws.

A right that was far better enumerated in English law than any language guaranteeing free speech.

I'm saying though, that if you think it's ok to remove one right at a time by passing laws that aren't even superior to the Constitution (or you don't have your rights enumerated in the first place), then it's only a matter of time before you don't have ANY rights at all.
Revasser
17-11-2005, 16:14
If you read my last post, you'll find out that I am not speaking from a US centric point of view. I'm talking about fundamental rights, regardless of what nation you're in.

Just curious; in nations where the "Right to Bear Arms" has never been enshrined in the way it is in US, do you believe the people of those nations should be given that right, or are you simply concerned, in principle, that it is (potentially) a right being taken away in the US? Is it the guns that matter, or the principle?
Deep Kimchi
17-11-2005, 16:22
Just curious; in nations where the "Right to Bear Arms" has never been enshrined in the way it is in US, do you believe the people of those nations should be given that right, or are you simply concerned, in principle, that it is (potentially) a right being taken away in the US? Is it the guns that matter, or the principle?

It's the principle. People who are armed are the last defense against tyranny.

Even the English enshrined this principle, until it just faded out by 1803 - not by being repealed, but by the passage of innumerable small laws that covered it over.

I'm curious to know what rights are actually guaranteed by the various national constitutions (or not guaranteed at all). If you're counting solely on laws, and not a constitution, to guarantee your rights, those rights can be suspended in a heartbeat without your consent.
Revasser
17-11-2005, 16:37
It's the principle. People who are armed are the last defense against tyranny.

Even the English enshrined this principle, until it just faded out by 1803 - not by being repealed, but by the passage of innumerable small laws that covered it over.

I'm curious to know what rights are actually guaranteed by the various national constitutions (or not guaranteed at all). If you're counting solely on laws, and not a constitution, to guarantee your rights, those rights can be suspended in a heartbeat without your consent.

Ahh, I can see where you're coming from. Quite honestly, I'm not sure exactly where I stand on the issue. My country has never really had that right enshrined, and the 'gun laws' have always, to my knowledge, been fairly strict ever since there was such a thing as 'gun laws', though they were tightened after the Port Authur massacre. Keeping with that example, if the gun laws then had been as tight as they are now, the disturbed fellow who killed all those people down there in Port Authur would likely not have had a rifle with the kind of ROF that the one he used had, possibly preventing some death, but if other people in the area had also been armed, one of them may have been able take him down before he caused the kind of harm that he did.

As for the last defense against tyranny... Can a few blokes with pistols and rifles really hope to stop a mechanised military if a tyrannical regime decides to employ it?
Dassenko
17-11-2005, 16:40
I see where you're coming from, DK. I'm not persuaded that at present there's a pressing need for Brits to be stashing up on arms. It's not a universal principle for me; I can see that it makes sense for Americans, but I don't agree that we have a great need for it at the moment. Times change, though even then the British would have to deal with the fact that there simply isn't a gun culture here.

Anyway.

think you need to change the title to "national security" because "individual" or "financial" security comes hand in hand with freedom...
I see no reason to change the title. It's a quote, plus my government is making its arguments on the grounds of of national and individual security.
Deep Kimchi
17-11-2005, 16:40
As for the last defense against tyranny... Can a few blokes with pistols and rifles really hope to stop a mechanised military if a tyrannical regime decides to employ it?

It's certainly tying the world's most powerful military in a knot in Iraq, isn't it?

At least we have to cater to their political issues in some way, instead of ignoring them.

I'm wondering if people really notice that their other civil rights are slowly but surely whittled away.
Deep Kimchi
17-11-2005, 16:41
I see where you're coming from, DK. I'm not persuaded that at present there's a pressing need for Brits to be stashing up on arms. It's not a universal principle for me; I can see that it makes sense for Americans, but I don't agree that we have a great need for it at the moment. Times change, though even then the British would have to deal with the fact that there simply isn't a gun culture here.

Anyway.

I see no reason to change the title. It's a quote, plus my government is making its arguments on the grounds of of national and individual security.

I'm not saying you should run out and get guns.

I'm saying that the erosion of rights is a slow but steady process, and it is common for a government to cite national and individual security in order to justify those erosions.
Dassenko
17-11-2005, 16:43
I'm not saying you should run out and get guns.

I'm saying that the erosion of rights is a slow but steady process, and it is common for a government to cite national and individual security in order to justify those erosions.
I agree. I guess we slightly diverge on the necessities of certain rights but we're essentially in (extremely concerned) agreement.
Revasser
17-11-2005, 16:53
It's certainly tying the world's most powerful military in a knot in Iraq, isn't it?

At least we have to cater to their political issues in some way, instead of ignoring them.

I'm wondering if people really notice that their other civil rights are slowly but surely whittled away.

Hmm, you've definitely got a point there.

I think the whole "if they take away our guns, they can take away anything!" argument is a bit flawed, ie. the slippery slope. But on the other hand, it IS a constitutional right over in the US, and being able to paste over it with simple legislature might set a dangerous precedent.

I agree with Dassenko about the lack of 'gun culture' meaning that people here in Australia and over in Britain tend not to really care as much about having that particular right.
Deep Kimchi
17-11-2005, 16:54
Hmm, you've definitely got a point there.

I think the whole "if they take away our guns, they can take away anything!" argument is a bit flawed, ie. the slippery slope. But on the other hand, it IS a constitutional right over in the US, and being able to paste over it with simple legislature might set a dangerous precedent.

I agree with Dassenko about the lack of 'gun culture' meaning that people here in Australia and over in Britain means people tend not to really care as much about having that particular right.

I think it's not so much about guns as it is around the following idea:

If the government proposes weakening or removing one of your rights today, and you allow it, on the argument that it makes you safer, the government will be back tomorrow to take another one.

Doesn't matter which one they start with.
Revasser
17-11-2005, 17:00
I think it's not so much about guns as it is around the following idea:

If the government proposes weakening or removing one of your rights today, and you allow it, on the argument that it makes you safer, the government will be back tomorrow to take another one.

Doesn't matter which one they start with.

Perhaps. But does allowing the weakening of one right today necessarily mean that you're going to allow them to do it again tomorrow? I suppose it depends on what rights you consider to be fundamental. Personally, I don't really consider it to be a fundamental right for a private citizen to own a high-powered, fully automatic, military grade assault rifle. Though I can understand the arguments behind wanting citizens to have the right to arm themselves.

But I suppose, if you allow the government to weaken or remove a right for the sake of security today, it might seem all the more reasonable to you for them to take another away tomorrow. A series of steps, that all seem perfectly reasonable and necessary at the time, can lead to pretty extreme things in the end.
Delyria
17-11-2005, 17:43
I guess I never really thought of gun control as taking away rights because I've always felt that the constitution protects the right to own weapons, but not necessarily ALL weapons, while other rights (such as free speech) are more universally protected. However, even free speech is sometimes curbed to protect people. For example, you can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded movie theatre because it could start a panic. So that is an example of what I think is an okay time to curb free speech, and the same principal can be used for gun control. There are times when, for the safety of others, control over weapons has to be enacted.

That said, I think people should also understand that freedom isn't safe. If they wanted just safety, then they could get a dictatorship. As we, England and France are all democratic, we have to give up some safety to preserve our system. That's why I think the patriot act goes too far--it curbs far to many freedoms just for the sake of a little extra security.

I am against guns, but I would never want to ban them. The reason is that it doesn't matter what I think about guns--The right to bare arms is number 2 in our Constitution, and if the founding fathers thought it important enough to put it at number 2, thats good enough for me. I don't think, however, that we can't limit it to some extent.