NationStates Jolt Archive

First off, this thread is NOT about whether the draft should or will be reinstated. Now, I ask a simple question: Do you think today's youth would be better off if they were required to spend some portion of thier life in the military, perhaps as a pre-requisite for graduation of high school? I personally think that all teens should go through a summer or so in boot camp at least, it could even replace gym class. Thoughts?

Do you think today's youth would be better off if they were required to spend some portion of thier life in the military, perhaps as a pre-requisite for graduation of high school?

No.

Next question.

Going to have to go with a big HELL NO! there.
If the kids want to go to a “boot camp” over the summer, more power to them, but otherwise, and I can't stress this enough, NO!

No.

Next question.
.

I actually agree with you. I think the disipline that it teaches would help the world around. It would also help provide simple life skills like working together to solve a common goal, cpr, and how to take care of one's body.

I would be against endoctrination though, or the drilling of concepts into the heads of the youth. so a lot of checks would have to be set up to prevent such from happening.

First off, this thread is NOT about whether the draft should or will be reinstated. Now, I ask a simple question: Do you think today's youth would be better off if they were required to spend some portion of thier life in the military, perhaps as a pre-requisite for graduation of high school? I personally think that all teens should go through a summer or so in boot camp at least, it could even replace gym class. Thoughts?
No

No. Allow me to elaborate:
NO, NO, NO, for the love of *higher diety* NO!

No. Slaves don't make good soldiers; I think this would instill a sort of mentality in the kids that being in the military was required.

I actually agree with you. I think the disipline that it teaches would help the world around. It would also help provide simple life skills like working together to solve a common goal, cpr, and how to take care of one's body.

Quite possibly laudable aims, but believing that the best way of teaching these involves going anywhere near lethal weapons seems to be blinkered thinking.

First off, this thread is NOT about whether the draft should or will be reinstated. Now, I ask a simple question: Do you think today's youth would be better off if they were required to spend some portion of thier life in the military, perhaps as a pre-requisite for graduation of high school? I personally think that all teens should go through a summer or so in boot camp at least, it could even replace gym class. Thoughts?

No. Speaking as someone with prior service, I know for a fact that the military is not for everyone.

While I do like the idea of a common experience at a common age, I do not for a moment believe that it should be a military experience.

No. Slaves don't make good soldiers.
I don't see how its slavery to train them with boot camp, but not to force them to wear dress codes, and ban hugging, and other shows of emotion.

Many nations in the world have mandatory military service, and I've never heard of an outcry against it.

I actually agree with you. I think the disipline that it teaches would help the world around. It would also help provide simple life skills like working together to solve a common goal, cpr, and how to take care of one's body.

I would be against endoctrination though, or the drilling of concepts into the heads of the youth. so a lot of checks would have to be set up to prevent such from happening.

A valid point. The government/school system would have to be careful that the emphisis was on physical activity, dicipline, and commitment and not necessarily serving some particular docterine or being forced to accept certain rhetoric.

Many nations in the world have mandatory military service, and I've never heard of an outcry against it.

In that case you haven't been listening very hard, have you?

Quite possibly laudable aims, but believing that the best way of teaching these involves going anywhere near lethal weapons seems to be blinkered thinking.

wouldn't include the use of weapons, since in highschool they wouldn't be able to legally use firearms yet. Much like ROTC doesn't use real guns for their drills and such.

I went through a leadership camp through the local reserves when I was younger, and at first I was against going, but I opened up to the idea and accepted the invite.

It was a week that I wish could have been longer. It taught a lot of good values, and helped me even to this day.

In that case you haven't been listening very hard, have you?
I think the Swiss are like that, and they have one of the lowest crime rates, and have a pretty high morale rate.

I hear people on a forum saying No, but none really listing any whys.

I don't see how its slavery to train them with boot camp, but not to force them to wear dress codes, and ban hugging, and other shows of emotion.

Many nations in the world have mandatory military service, and I've never heard of an outcry against it.

Well aside from the two being completely different in terms of physical and mental abuse, there is the issue that dress codes, etc. aren't liked anyway.

Kids push the dress code as far as they can. Kids will show affection when there are no teachers around.

Mandatory boot camp...? That's not so easy to sneak out of.

wouldn't include the use of weapons, since in highschool they wouldn't be able to legally use firearms yet. Much like ROTC doesn't use real guns for their drills and such.

Maybe in your nation, in the UK 16 year olds are allowed to use weapons in the army.

I went through a leadership camp through the local reserves when I was younger, and at first I was against going, but I opened up to the idea and accepted the invite.

It was a week that I wish could have been longer. It taught a lot of good values, and helped me even to this day.

If the aim is really to "help provide simple life skills like working together to solve a common goal, cpr, and how to take care of one's body" then surely it would make more sense to establish co-operation, cpr and personal classes in school, instead of farming out people to the military?

I think its a good idea. I think everyone should have some military experience. Just think if we had another world war, i'm sure the next world war will be total chaos if countries like China, USA, Russia, ect.. are involved. We might be in a need for quick military help (such as a militia was during the revolutionary war.) And just a bit of training, such as boot camp (even if it was for only a few months), would give us a bit more of an edge and we would have people always ready in case of any emergency.

Yes. I support boot camp. In fact, going to boot camp should be mandatory for everyone.

Train them just like anyone else, though with less emphasis on beign in the military, and more emphasize on personal self-defense.

I think the Swiss are like that, and they have one of the lowest crime rates, and have a pretty high morale rate.

I hear people on a forum saying No, but none really listing any whys.

Why not have this? The same reason I oppose being forced to go to public school. The same reason I oppose being forced to have to pay an income tax.

It's about liberty. The decision to do what you want to do. Would this mandatory boot camp do good for our crime rate and morality? Most definitely.

Would allowing the government to spy on your internet conversations and follow-up on your life also keep crime and possible terrorist attacks to a minimum? Of course.

The ends do not justify the means.

I hear people on a forum saying No, but none really listing any whys.

You want a 'why'? Because I abhor the military and pretty much all they stand for. The idea that the formalisation of my intellectual education would depend upon being forced to be surrounded by them and follow their orders is quite simply ludicrous. If you want to encourage the qualities you listed above then something like the Scouting movement seems adequate.

A more simple 'why' - I believe in people having the right to chose, rather than being bundled off into military training against their will as part of the educational system. It was hardly a rip-roaring succes when East Germany did it.

First off, this thread is NOT about whether the draft should or will be reinstated. Now, I ask a simple question: Do you think today's youth would be better off if they were required to spend some portion of thier life in the military, perhaps as a pre-requisite for graduation of high school? I personally think that all teens should go through a summer or so in boot camp at least, it could even replace gym class. Thoughts?

Yes I believe it would be highly beneficial to them to find and know that they are capable of far more than our marshmellow educational system wants them to believe. Yes I do realize this will instill an evil sense of independence and self confidence they could never otherwise even comprehend, but what the heck, our enemies will just have to learn to deal with marshmellows that know their limits are few. Actually this could easily be done without ever having any commitment to the possibility of active duty.

Compulsory military service? Sure.
Two or three years at most though. If you want to stay in then for however long you can remain eligible. However, for CO's (conscientious objectors if I remember right) something like Peace Corps would do just fine. I can't think of any religion that would prohibit doing service work for some other country in the world for X amount of time. Even those who wouldn't do military or Peace Corps could do something in the lines of bureaucratic work, maybe even become a civil servant or something.
If you want to go a step further why not just make a new "New Deal" program out of the whole thing.
Every citizen would learn some kind of skill and recieve training that could prove invaluable down the line, and might activate some of society's derelicts to a greater role in life. If none of this appeals to and individual, they still have the right to move to any number of other western countries that garuntee approximately the same freedoms as us (as in USA) and live comfortably. If the "New New Deal" thing worked out efficiently enough, we might even be able to pay for the tickets/transportation of such discontented citizens.

If none of this appeals to and individual, they still have the right to move to any number of other western countries that garuntee approximately the same freedoms as us (as in USA) and live comfortably.

Love it or leave it?

Compulsory military service? Sure.
Two or three years at most though. If you want to stay in then for however long you can remain eligible. However, for CO's (conscientious objectors if I remember right) something like Peace Corps would do just fine. I can't think of any religion that would prohibit doing service work for some other country in the world for X amount of time. Even those who wouldn't do military or Peace Corps could do something in the lines of bureaucratic work, maybe even become a civil servant or something.
If you want to go a step further why not just make a new "New Deal" program out of the whole thing.
Every citizen would learn some kind of skill and recieve training that could prove invaluable down the line, and might activate some of society's derelicts to a greater role in life. If none of this appeals to and individual, they still have the right to move to any number of other western countries that garuntee approximately the same freedoms as us (as in USA) and live comfortably. If the "New New Deal" thing worked out efficiently enough, we might even be able to pay for the tickets/transportation of such discontented citizens.
Under what constitutional grounds?

Love it or leave it?

Perhaps a general way of looking at it. I'm sure there are extenuating circumstances which might prevent a person from doing any of the previously said options, but then again there is obviously going to be such a broad range of opportunities. The ND wouldn't replace the current American Capitalist system, rather it would hopefully supplement it in a way.

I personally believe that if you feel obligated enough to avoid doing some kind of service to country, then you don't really belong. That shouldn't however interfere with any decisions made if I were to have the authority to assert this kind of program.

A valid point. The government/school system would have to be careful that the emphisis was on physical activity, dicipline, and commitment and not necessarily serving some particular docterine or being forced to accept certain rhetoric.

How are discipline and commitment not rhetoric? A military requirement would indoctrinate people into a philosophy of stolid obedience, responsibility, and duty that would cripple them in everyday society. We'd be raising a nation more vulnerable to the whims of the powerful and more vulnerable to the cries of the disenfranchised. The only people who could get out of this would be the rich and the criminals, and thus they would prosper at the expense of everyone else.

You want a 'why'? Because I abhor the military and pretty much all they stand for. The idea that the formalisation of my intellectual education would depend upon being forced to be surrounded by them and follow their orders is quite simply ludicrous. If you want to encourage the qualities you listed above then something like the Scouting movement seems adequate.

A more simple 'why' - I believe in people having the right to chose, rather than being bundled off into military training against their will as part of the educational system. It was hardly a rip-roaring succes when East Germany did it.

so you say the use of something like the Scouts is ok, even though it was first made as a precurser to the military service that was to come.

If you use it to make people join the military, that would be no. I am against indoctrinization and the training in leathal practices. But the disipline and skills taught would be much greater.

When going to school, it is manditory for you to have physical education in the States. Just as its manditory to maintain so many hours of highschool before getting a diploma.

If a doctor shows that there is a medical reason for you not to go, then its excused. I don't see how getting people into shape, teaching them good skills, and how to work together is such a bad thing. I bet it would even solve crime rates, murders, vandalism, fight the overweight trend of america, and save more lives. Sure, it might be tough, but life is tough at times, and teaching them how to handle it rather then how to hide from it will help with things like low self esteem, depression, feeling useless, and the like.

People should have the right to choose, but at the same time the system is there to help people. If people want to starve to death, let them right? Take away all the programs the government has set up to prevent all of this. If people want to abuse their children, let them, its their right to choose, isn't it?

But the government steps in for the common good, and in my opinion, this would be for the common good.

Under what constitutional grounds?

Who knows? Use your imagination. Who would have ever guessed that the Ten Commandments display could ever be considered to be "unconstitutional" back when the Constitution was actually written?

What is "Constitutional" and what is not is defined only by those who have been given the "authority" to do as much. Which of course is an object of particular interest in American Federalism.

If people want to starve to death, let them right? Take away all the programs the government has set up to prevent all of this.

I was not under the impression that the US force-fed its own citizens if they did not feed themselves. Strange that this has escaped my notice all this time.

No.

Teens (like myself) should choose as adults of the future, if we want to attend a boot camp. We should be teaching how to keep peace WITHOUT the use of force.

There are many teenagers experiencing terrible things in their lives, and that's growing up for them. They go through depression and other problems. So you really want a depressed teen in a military boot camp? That doesn't help. That just makes you want to kill yourself while the sergent is yelling at you that you're a piece of crap. When we need encouragement the most, we have someone telling us we're worthless, even at a vulnerable time. I can see teen suicides skyrocketing right now.

Also, not all teens approve of war and all things lugged in with the topic. I, myself, think all military services are a joke because, either way, you are apart of a group that holds responsibility for ending innocent lives in the crossfire of trying to accomplish a goal that might not even be a good one.

It sure as hell is important. It teaches invaluable skills and puts you in shape.

I was not under the impression that the US force-fed its own citizens if they did not feed themselves. Strange that this has escaped my notice all this time.

often times when someone shows that they wish to cause self harm, such as cutting themselves, starveing themselves, attempted suicide and the like, the system steps in and declares that they are unable to properly take care of themselves.

in cases where a person has blacked out due to lack of eating, a hospitols first responce is to hook IV's up and get their levels back up.

Medication is often times brought to the people to help them 'adjust' to how a 'normal' person is to act.

Hell, I've been arrested for yelling because its not what a 'properly thinking' person would do, so therefore it was disorderly conduct.

If a doctor shows that there is a medical reason for you not to go, then its excused. I don't see how getting people into shape, teaching them good skills, and how to work together is such a bad thing. I bet it would even solve crime rates, murders, vandalism, fight the overweight trend of america, and save more lives. Sure, it might be tough, but life is tough at times, and teaching them how to handle it rather then how to hide from it will help with things like low self esteem, depression, feeling useless, and the like.

Why make mandatory boot camp when you could just get rid of all the guns and the junk food? Get rid of those problems at the source. Since we're going for the statist solution.

People should have the right to choose, but at the same time the system is there to help people. If people want to starve to death, let them right? Take away all the programs the government has set up to prevent all of this. If people want to abuse their children, let them, its their right to choose, isn't it?

Yes, it's all about choice. Except for that last part. See, the government is here to protect our rights. Our rights to life, liberty, and property. Your right to slap your children stops at their right to not be harmed.

But the government steps in for the common good, and in my opinion, this would be for the common good.

This is actually a sloppy solution. You're eliminating choice by forcing kids to attend boot camp on the premise that they'll learn values, get into shape, etc. However, as soon as they're gone, all of that is still around them. Instead of boot camp, get rid of the temptation. :rolleyes:

Sure, as long as you make all the old men serve first. Once all of them have done their compulsory service, our generation will gladly do the same.

Doesn’t sound so pretty now, does it? It's not the job of any generation to fight the wars of the previous generation. Mandatory service for youths is commiting them to fight in wars they may not even have had a say in.

often times when someone shows that they wish to cause self harm, such as cutting themselves, starveing themselves, attempted suicide and the like, the system steps in and declares that they are unable to properly take care of themselves.

Ah, so life is not an inalienable right, but rather a duty?

It sure as hell is important. It teaches invaluable skills and puts you in shape.

But it also takes away time that could be used learning more invaluable skills and getting used to the shape that with or without boot camp the person will have for the rest of their life.

Yes. If there was too much opposition from the public they could offer pay.

Yes, it's all about choice. Except for that last part. See, the government is here to protect our rights. Our rights to life, liberty, and property. Your right to slap your children stops at their right to not be harmed.


actually if I want to spank my children, I am fully able to do so, and the state cannot tell me otherwise unless I do so in an uncontrolled fashion.

This is actually a sloppy solution. You're eliminating choice by forcing kids to attend boot camp on the premise that they'll learn values, get into shape, etc. However, as soon as they're gone, all of that is still around them. Instead of boot camp, get rid of the temptation. :rolleyes:

so, to support that people should have the right if they choose it, is to take away their chooses, not to teach them a better understanding and allowing them to make the choice themselves?

actually if I want to spank my children, I am fully able to do so, and the state cannot tell me otherwise unless I do so in an uncontrolled fashion.

Hey, maybe we could save all this tedious messing about in boot camp and instead just beat some sense into the whippersnappers in the good old fashioned way.

Sure, as long as you make all the old men serve first. Once all of them have done their compulsory service, our generation will gladly do the same.

Doesn’t sound so pretty now, does it? It's not the job of any generation to fight the wars of the previous generation. Mandatory service for youths is commiting them to fight in wars they may not even have had a say in.

Do parents not love their own children? Do you have any idea how many times I've talked to people on base (Yes, I live on a military base) who are getting ready to leave for whatever location(s) they've been assigned to for the next 3+ months (Of course varying between branches of service but 3 mo. is the general minimum.) of their lives that go without complaint? Often times I hear something along the lines of, "I go willingly so that my children won't have to."
Would such parents not have a 'say' in the wars that would be handed down to their children?

Would they choose to continue 'stupid and pointless' wars at the very expence of their own children?

actually if I want to spank my children, I am fully able to do so, and the state cannot tell me otherwise unless I do so in an uncontrolled fashion.

Indeed, you are correct. I used the wrong terms; replace slapped and harmed with abuse and abused, respectively. It is unfortunate that there is a line between the two; it's not right to hit an adult nor should it be right to hit a child.



so, to support that people should have the right if they choose it, is to take away their chooses, not to teach them a better understanding and allowing them to make the choice themselves?

I can't quite discern what you're trying to say here... But making boot camp mandatory would be taking away a person's right to choose between not going to boot camp and going there. You shouldn't force people to do something; regardless of whether or not it's right.

Hey, maybe we could save all this tedious messing about in boot camp and instead just beat some sense into the whippersnappers in the good old fashioned way.


Well after your rants in this thread I am convinced that it is absolutely necessary. A country full of thought processes such as yours is doomed to rot. Thanks, I am writing my congressmen now and demanding a study be done on how best to incorporate this concept. I think they should be paid the same as any volunteer? Any thoughts?

I can't quite discern what you're trying to say here... But making boot camp mandatory would be taking away a person's right to choose between not going to boot camp and going there. You shouldn't force people to do something; regardless of whether or not it's right.

you had suggested taking away junk food and guns, to remove the temptations rather then force them to go to bootcamp.

so you are taking away their freedoms, rather then teaching them how to properly use them.

Do parents not love their own children? Do you have any idea how many times I've talked to people on base (Yes, I live on a military base) who are getting ready to leave for whatever location(s) they've been assigned to for the next 3+ months (Of course varying between branches of service but 3 mo. is the general minimum.) of their lives that go without complaint? Often times I hear something along the lines of, "I go willingly so that my children won't have to."
Would such parents not have a 'say' in the wars that would be handed down to their children?

Would they choose to continue 'stupid and pointless' wars at the very expence of their own children?


Quite realistically, yes. Parents have showed their willingness to send their sons and daughters to die in pointless wars throughout history. More than that, it's the older generation that's getting the say anyway. What if kids don't support the war that their parents do? Why should they be forced to fight all the same.

In the long run, I don't care what the people who won't actually have to fight whether they like it or not have to say about a war. It's the ones who will never get a say about fighting that need to be able to decide. A volunteer army has, for better or for worse, chosen to fight whatever fight is chosen for them, a mandatory one has not.

I could definitely see replacing gym class with some sort of paramilitary training, high school sports with millitary games, and then disbanding or greatly reducing the standing army. People would then learn vaulabe self defence skills and provide for the nation's defence. I would be against a boot camp, but training in maneuvers, tactics, and familiarizing young people with their weapons would easily provide for the defense of any nation larger than liechtenstein, and at a much cheaper price than the U.S., for example, spends on its military.

Of course that would mean you can't send armies off on overseas adventures, but that really hurts a country far more than it helps.

Shiiit, practicly all the kids in my school could use a bit of an ass-whooping.

Quite realistically, yes. Parents have showed their willingness to send their sons and daughters to die in pointless wars throughout history. More than that, it's the older generation that's getting the say anyway. What if kids don't support the war that their parents do? Why should they be forced to fight all the same.

In the long run, I don't care what the people who won't actually have to fight whether they like it or not have to say about a war. It's the ones who will never get a say about fighting that need to be able to decide. A volunteer army has, for better or for worse, chosen to fight whatever fight is chosen for them, a mandatory one has not.

Such a point is valid. But that is why I've also included the options of Peace Corps or bereaucratic jobs/civil servants in my version of the idea. Not everybody would be willing or able to handle the military, and I think it'd be wrong to force everybody to do as much. I do however believe that people are obligated to do their respective countries some service. That I cannot see to be wrong.

Such a point is valid. But that is why I've also included the options of Peace Corps or bereaucratic jobs/civil servants in my version of the idea. Not everybody would be willing or able to handle the military, and I think it'd be wrong to force everybody to do as much. I do however believe that people are obligated to do their respective countries some service. That I cannot see to be wrong.

Why are people obligated to do their countries service? Why shouldn't we promote self-interest as opposed to concern for the common good?

Why are people obligated to do their countries service? Why shouldn't we promote self-interest as opposed to concern for the common good?

Why then should their rights to do as much be protected?
Something cannot be given for nothing. Somewhere a price must be paid.

I could definitely see replacing gym class with some sort of paramilitary training, high school sports with millitary games, and then disbanding or greatly reducing the standing army. People would then learn vaulabe self defence skills and provide for the nation's defence. I would be against a boot camp, but training in maneuvers, tactics, and familiarizing young people with their weapons would easily provide for the defense of any nation larger than liechtenstein, and at a much cheaper price than the U.S., for example, spends on its military.

Of course that would mean you can't send armies off on overseas adventures, but that really hurts a country far more than it helps.

It really has nothing to do with helping the military in the US. Our military does just fine with only volunteers. It has more to do introducing our kids to reality, gaining valuable self confidence, and the self discipline that our soft society has virtually eliminated. To be able to accomplish this it would be mandatory to remove them for a short period of time from the surroundings that they are comfortable in. It would be impossible for them to take it seriously if they had their usual peers and same retreats to haunt after an hour per day instead of gym. 16 weeks of their choice upon graduation should be more than enough I would think.

Such a point is valid. But that is why I've also included the options of Peace Corps or bereaucratic jobs/civil servants in my version of the idea. Not everybody would be willing or able to handle the military, and I think it'd be wrong to force everybody to do as much. I do however believe that people are obligated to do their respective countries some service. That I cannot see to be wrong.

We do... They're called taxes.

The problem is that it really isn't fair to tell anyone what they have to do. If I want to be a good-for-nothing slob, no matter how reprehensible you may find me, I can live in a trailer, curse at passing teenagers about the disrespect of "kids these days", and drink enough beer to float a small armada, and you really don't have a right to tell me I can't.

It's all fine and right to wave about the flag of "duty to governemnt and country", but it's not really fair. Offer me the choice to do whatever, and I will make the choice I deem best. That is what liberty is about. I was not born with a debt to anyone, and to force that deby upon me is reprehensible.

Why then should their rights to do as much be protected?
Something cannot be given for nothing. Somewhere a price must be paid.

So a government's just like a business? You get what you pay for? Presumably one does not barter rights for other rights, one gets the whole package as mandatory. Otherwise, why would there be rights?

Why then should their rights to do as much be protected?
Something cannot be given for nothing. Somewhere a price must be paid.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... We just went from "Unalienable rights" to "Government Granted Rights" Are we, or are we not born with unallienable rights?

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Property. Remember those?

Why are people obligated to do their countries service? Why shouldn't we promote self-interest as opposed to concern for the common good?

Mainly because the government supports everyone's sorry ass from birth. The institution of school is government controlled and funded, welfare, medicaid, social security. All government-funded and ran programs. Certainly, they all come from our taxes, but it is necessary to give and take.

If you produce a country of self-absorbed people then you produce a wasteland. A man who has no thought for the common good of him and his fellow people is not a man, but a child. Only children are self-serving to that extent.

Furthermore, why promote self-interest? What good does that do for anyone in the nation? Even for the self-absorbed.

I believe a mandatory military service would do a lot of good for people. I certainly believe the military could be for everyone. I mean, you have four choices of branches to go. If you're afraid of taking a helluva lotta shit from someone, join the Air Force. If you're gung-ho, take the Marines. It's not that hard to choose from. The life skills taught in the military aren't all lethal combat, far from it. Only 33% of the people in the military (last figure I remember) have combat-oriented jobs. What are the rest? Doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, chefs, and so-forth. How are those not valuable life skills? The government will pay for your college, the government will pay for your training, and all you have to do is put up with (at most) 13 weeks of someone yelling at you. Really, it's not that bad after Basic. Hell, in the Air Force they learn how to shoot their rifle, and qualify in two days. Two days. Other than that, they don't even have a real rifle. So what's the big deal in that?

The majority of people have the military misconceived. They see "Full Metal Jacket" or "Apocalypse Now" and go "holy hell, this is too tough". It's really not. Yeah, join the Marines and you'll get a taste of Full Metal Jacket. But join the Air Force and you may as well have joined the Peace Corps. It's seriously not that bad.

And what's so bad about instilling in people: integrity, responsibility, duty, and teamwork? How are those bad traits? I have never heard someone go, "God, he works too well with me." Or, "I hate it that he's got a good head on his shoulders." Never.

If you're that much of a teenage wuss that you're afraid to join the military and that's your /sole/ reason for saying no then re-evaluate the whole situation. It's not a suicidal idea to join the military. Chances are, if you're a desk jockey in the military then when a war happens... you'll still be sitting at a desk. Big... friggin'... whoop.

First off, this thread is NOT about whether the draft should or will be reinstated. Now, I ask a simple question: Do you think today's youth would be better off if they were required to spend some portion of thier life in the military, perhaps as a pre-requisite for graduation of high school? I personally think that all teens should go through a summer or so in boot camp at least, it could even replace gym class. Thoughts?

In addition to the issue of personal liberties, the is the issue of military acceptability.

1) The military does not want to have to induct and train persons unsuitable. As stated above, there are people who just don't fit into the military lifestyle.

2) The military exists to defend the nation. It is not a babysitting service, nor is it a laboratory for social engineering. Attempting to make it into one would reduce it's ability to carry out it's primary function of defense.


wouldn't include the use of weapons, since in highschool they wouldn't be able to legally use firearms yet.

That's simply incorrect. I am (of course) not familiar with all the statutes. However, I do not know of any state that makes it blanket illegal for minors to use firearms. Outside the US, there may be places where this is true.

What exactly are these skills that are so much more important than the skills and knowledge you would be learning over the same period of time outside a boot camp?

Maybe we should send kids to the gulags starting at age 10. They will learn valuable skills and they will get in shape. Swinging a pick axe all day is hard work, and even the biggest porkers will lose weight when they get nothing but soup broth to eat once a day.

you had suggested taking away junk food and guns, to remove the temptations rather then force them to go to bootcamp.

so you are taking away their freedoms, rather then teaching them how to properly use them.

It was sarcasm. I'm not taking away their freedoms, just the bad ones. Why make it mandatory to learn about your freedoms? If you really valued them, you'd learn about them voluntarily.

Yes, mandatory boot camp is a great idea. Its benefits sure outweigh the cost of losing liberty. And that's the whole issue.

It doesn't matter if it's good or bad. It matters if you have a choice. Why should the government decide how I live my life? If I want to be an immoral scumbag, then let me. Only do something about it when I violate someone else's right to life, liberty or property.

The ends do not justify the means.

Mainly because the government supports everyone's sorry ass from birth. The institution of school is government controlled and funded, welfare, medicaid, social security. All government-funded and ran programs. Certainly, they all come from our taxes, but it is necessary to give and take.

If you produce a country of self-absorbed people then you produce a wasteland. A man who has no thought for the common good of him and his fellow people is not a man, but a child. Only children are self-serving to that extent.

Furthermore, why promote self-interest? What good does that do for anyone in the nation? Even for the self-absorbed.

I believe a mandatory military service would do a lot of good for people. I certainly believe the military could be for everyone. I mean, you have four choices of branches to go. If you're afraid of taking a helluva lotta shit from someone, join the Air Force. If you're gung-ho, take the Marines. It's not that hard to choose from. The life skills taught in the military aren't all lethal combat, far from it. Only 33% of the people in the military (last figure I remember) have combat-oriented jobs. What are the rest? Doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, chefs, and so-forth. How are those not valuable life skills? The government will pay for your college, the government will pay for your training, and all you have to do is put up with (at most) 13 weeks of someone yelling at you. Really, it's not that bad after Basic. Hell, in the Air Force they learn how to shoot their rifle, and qualify in two days. Two days. Other than that, they don't even have a real rifle. So what's the big deal in that?

The majority of people have the military misconceived. They see "Full Metal Jacket" or "Apocalypse Now" and go "holy hell, this is too tough". It's really not. Yeah, join the Marines and you'll get a taste of Full Metal Jacket. But join the Air Force and you may as well have joined the Peace Corps. It's seriously not that bad.

And what's so bad about instilling in people: integrity, responsibility, duty, and teamwork? How are those bad traits? I have never heard someone go, "God, he works too well with me." Or, "I hate it that he's got a good head on his shoulders." Never.

If you're that much of a teenage wuss that you're afraid to join the military and that's your /sole/ reason for saying no then re-evaluate the whole situation. It's not a suicidal idea to join the military. Chances are, if you're a desk jockey in the military then when a war happens... you'll still be sitting at a desk. Big... friggin'... whoop.

Mmm... A massive government that provides for everything I could possibly ever need AND decides what I like and what I can do! Great. What was the foundation of this nation again? Surely not liberty.

Mainly because the government supports everyone's sorry ass from birth. The institution of school is government controlled and funded, welfare, medicaid, social security. All government-funded and ran programs. Certainly, they all come from our taxes, but it is necessary to give and take.

Like I said, we DO give for what we receive. We pay taxes. Military service has NOTHING to do with schools or social security.

If you produce a country of self-absorbed people then you produce a wasteland. A man who has no thought for the common good of him and his fellow people is not a man, but a child. Only children are self-serving to that extent.

Furthermore, why promote self-interest? What good does that do for anyone in the nation? Even for the self-absorbed.

I believe a mandatory military service would do a lot of good for people. I certainly believe the military could be for everyone. I mean, you have four choices of branches to go. If you're afraid of taking a helluva lotta shit from someone, join the Air Force. If you're gung-ho, take the Marines. It's not that hard to choose from. The life skills taught in the military aren't all lethal combat, far from it. Only 33% of the people in the military (last figure I remember) have combat-oriented jobs. What are the rest? Doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, chefs, and so-forth. How are those not valuable life skills? The government will pay for your college, the government will pay for your training, and all you have to do is put up with (at most) 13 weeks of someone yelling at you. Really, it's not that bad after Basic. Hell, in the Air Force they learn how to shoot their rifle, and qualify in two days. Two days. Other than that, they don't even have a real rifle. So what's the big deal in that?

In response to all of the strict moralizing, I remind you that you, the government, and the whole world have no right to force me to conform to your image of social positivity. If I want to be "worthless" and "greedy" then I can, and you have no right to tell me not to be. That's the wonder of liberty.

The majority of people have the military misconceived. They see "Full Metal Jacket" or "Apocalypse Now" and go "holy hell, this is too tough". It's really not. Yeah, join the Marines and you'll get a taste of Full Metal Jacket. But join the Air Force and you may as well have joined the Peace Corps. It's seriously not that bad.

Lay down your life, time, career goals, morals, politics, and your right to think for yourself. Obvious small sacrifices, right?:rolleyes:

And what's so bad about instilling in people: integrity, responsibility, duty, and teamwork? How are those bad traits? I have never heard someone go, "God, he works too well with me." Or, "I hate it that he's got a good head on his shoulders." Never.

Once again, you may well like your versions of "integrity" "responsibility" "duty" and "teamwork", but that doesn't give you the right to make me do so. While you're at it, why not send me off to a re-education camp, fearless leader?

If you're that much of a teenage wuss that you're afraid to join the military and that's your /sole/ reason for saying no then re-evaluate the whole situation. It's not a suicidal idea to join the military. Chances are, if you're a desk jockey in the military then when a war happens... you'll still be sitting at a desk. Big... friggin'... whoop.

Whoo... Big man. Calling people who value their only lives wusses. How masochistic of you! And, of course, any such moral degenerate MUST be a teenager.

First off, this thread is NOT about whether the draft should or will be reinstated. Now, I ask a simple question: Do you think today's youth would be better off if they were required to spend some portion of thier life in the military, perhaps as a pre-requisite for graduation of high school? I personally think that all teens should go through a summer or so in boot camp at least, it could even replace gym class. Thoughts?

No way. Not everyone has the will and potential (especially the potential) to go through boot camp. I know I sure as hell don't. Why do you think they make this optional in the first place? I'm a Junior in high school, and I'm looking forward to Senior year and then college. I don't want the military and all of the "Fitness America" people standing in my way of success. I don't want to not be allowed to graduate because I can't climb a wall.

Required military service...They might as well draft us if they do that.

I think the Swiss are like that, and they have one of the lowest crime rates, and have a pretty high morale rate.

What do the Swiss have to do with America? Turkey has a manditory military service also. Turkey also has terrorists trying to overthrow the goverment. Is it due to the manditory military service or that their culture and history is totally different from the Swiss.

First off, this thread is NOT about whether the draft should or will be reinstated. Now, I ask a simple question: Do you think today's youth would be better off if they were required to spend some portion of thier life in the military, perhaps as a pre-requisite for graduation of high school? I personally think that all teens should go through a summer or so in boot camp at least, it could even replace gym class. Thoughts?
"If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all."

If you're that much of a teenage wuss that you're afraid to join the military and that's your /sole/ reason for saying no then re-evaluate the whole situation. It's not a suicidal idea to join the military. Chances are, if you're a desk jockey in the military then when a war happens... you'll still be sitting at a desk. Big... friggin'... whoop.
I'm not a wuss. Its only a wee bit completely against my morals.

No.

Here is how conscription (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany) works in Germany:

Once you're 18, you're asked to come for a medical examination. There you get allocated a status (eg T1 - very good, T2 - okay, T3 - not so good etc).

You get a choice of either 9 months Bundeswehr (3 months Basic Training, 6 months service) or Civil Service (no idea how long), which consists of doing nice things like bringing old people food and so on. You can suggest what you'd want to do in the army, and then they send you off.
You cannot be sent overseas unless you take an option on an extra 14 months at the end of your service, with extra pay and all the boni.
And then you still have the option of joining the military for good and becoming a professional soldier - and those are the guys they send overseas.

It works well, it trains people to have a little respect and feel a bit of connection with their country, and as long as people also get a choice to do something else, I think it's a good idea.

For me personally, I think it would be good, I'd get fit, I'd do something exciting for a change...and I like big guns and stuff. :p

Here is what the German President had to say about the issue:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1738261,00.html
"I'm convinced of the merits of military service, and it's my wish that the system will have a future," said Köhler. "It leads many qualified people to the Bundeswehr; it keeps our forces rooted in the nation; and it has a beneficial effect on our common character."

I think the Swiss are like that, and they have one of the lowest crime rates, and have a pretty high morale rate.

I hear people on a forum saying No, but none really listing any whys.

Here's a very, very good reason.

The military is not a social welfare program, not a jobs program, and not a "help kids grow up" program.

I was in the infantry in combat, and the LAST thing I need or want is someone in my unit who doesn't want to be there - someone who will say, "they made me come here against my will".

It would ruin the US military (especially during a war).

Here's a very, very good reason.

The military is not a social welfare program, not a jobs program, and not a "help kids grow up" program.

I was in the infantry in combat, and the LAST thing I need or want is someone in my unit who doesn't want to be there - someone who will say, "they made me come here against my will".

It would ruin the US military (especially during a war).

Which is almost word for word what I said in #56 above. ;)

... or Civil Service (no idea how long)...A year.

Here's a very, very good reason.

The military is not a social welfare program, not a jobs program, and not a "help kids grow up" program.

I was in the infantry in combat, and the LAST thing I need or want is someone in my unit who doesn't want to be there - someone who will say, "they made me come here against my will".

It would ruin the US military (especially during a war).Ah, my dad always told me that was the FIRST thing he wanted, provided it happened in the other army...:D

First off, this thread is NOT about whether the draft should or will be reinstated. Now, I ask a simple question: Do you think today's youth would be better off if they were required to spend some portion of thier life in the military, perhaps as a pre-requisite for graduation of high school? I personally think that all teens should go through a summer or so in boot camp at least, it could even replace gym class. Thoughts?

Kids graduate from high school at 18, what you're proposing is putting kids who can't even vote and can barely drive in fatigues and putting guns in their hands. No offense to you, but you really weren't thinking clearly when you had this idea.

I don't see how its slavery to train them with boot camp, but not to force them to wear dress codes, and ban hugging, and other shows of emotion.

Many nations in the world have mandatory military service, and I've never heard of an outcry against it.You're hearing it now.

No, because I really don't trust the gov. not to abuse this as a propaganda opertunity. It might teach valuable skills, but than it might also wind up with a situation like that the resulted in the recent scandal at some of the Air Force acadamies were caets were being harased for not being evangelical christians.

no, unequivocably no.

Enforcing all children to do PE/ Gym is divisive and elitist, and affords those with muscles primacy, why further such masculate posturing in themilitary?

Until the military will accept me as a volunteer, I will have nothing to do with them.

I also think the assumption that military boot camp is the best way to teach skills or values or whatnot is ridiculous. Schools can and do teach children to work together. Parents ought to teach their own children morality.

I also agree with those who have said in one way or another a person forced to serve is the least qualified for service, and the includes civil services and Peace Corps and such things. If you don't want to do it, you probably won't do it well.

I don't agree with mandatory military service if it involves people being forced to die in wars of conquest like Iraq. There's a cadet youth group here in the UK, aged 13-18 where kids can be army, navy or air cadets. I'm an air cadet right now. Initially when I joined at 13, I didn't want to join but my dad insisted that I did. Now I'm glad he did. It's taught me more about discipline and teamwork than school's ever done. If it was some kind of compulsory cadet system or military training in British secondary schools, I think that would be beneficial to kids.

no, unequivocally no.

Enforcing all children to do PE/ Gym is divisive and elitist, and affords those with muscles primacy, why further such emasculate posturing in the military?
Uh...it does?


Not at my school. I actually am very unatheletic, but I adore gym, just because it's a break from my very intense schedule...

If forcing people to learn values(not "kill people" values, but "work together" and "help out" values) is taking away their freedoms, then isn't forcing people to learn math and how to read is school also taking away their freedom to not know what the hell a number is?

Remember: not all people in the military are on the front lines. I think the coast guard is part of the military. Plus, the military can help careers. It would be like a college with more dicsipline. You can learn to be a doctor in the military. You can learn to be a surgine in the military. A desk jockey in the military is still a desk jockey and desk jockies are not the ones on the front lines. The military is more :) than :sniper: . Please, research your topic before jumping to conclusions. I have two granfathers who were in the military during Vietnam. My father was a marine during peace time. I think I have sources that are more reliable than movies and anti-military liberals who can't even name one branch. Come on. Even first graders know about the army. The military teaches valuable skills, like working hard and working like a team rather than a group of selfish babies.

Please take these two steps before posting:
1. Know what the hell you're talking about.
2. Actually know what's going on.

The military teaches valuable skills, like working hard and working like a team rather than a group of selfish babies.

Maybe not eveyone thinks they're so valuable, ever thought of that? Not everyone is or wants to be part of a team, in fact some jobs are better performed alone. You don't have to go to the army to "work hard".
Anyway, my point is: I find it plain dumb forcing me to suspend my life and plans for 8 months (or 4, or whatever, depends on your country) so I can, unwillingly, go to a place where I don't want to be and do something I don't want to do.


(...)isn't forcing people to learn math and how to read is school also taking away their freedom to not know what the hell a number is?
That's not a very good comparison, is it? Think about the consequences for the general population of not having mandatory schooling and not having mandatory drafts.