NationStates Jolt Archive

Now that the trolling and general unreasonableness of the previous Holocaust themed thread has gone away, I would like to offer the opotunity for those who belive that the holocaust didnt happen to discuss the notion that it didnt happen with those who believe it did in a calm and rational fashion. Is that possible for everyone? Ok then I will begin

To open I would like to ask those who believe the Holocaust didnt happen why the defence of "I was only following orders" was used so much by the German officers when if it didnt happen they could clealry have just pointed to the fact that it didnt http://www.notso.com/again.htm for more infomation

Perhaps we can discuss the fact that Christ didn't rise from the dead and it was clearly Mary Magdelene sporting a false beard who came out with all of the stuff he spouted between the crucifixion and the acension instead?

I would like to inject my opinion into the matter. The primary reason I denied the Holocaust (I am a former National Socialist) was that the Nazi regime represented some shred of hope, however misguided, to the people. Germany was defeated and humiliated, Hitler manipulated the people for his personal gain; he was an opportunist. This hope was so powerful that I had so much faith invested into the idea. I was unable to see the opportunism inherent in Hitler. I would say that it is more with disbelief that someone or something could do somthing so horrible. It would shake ones very foundation.

I would like to inject my opinion into the matter. The primary reason I denied the Holocaust (I am a former National Socialist) was that the Nazi regime represented some shred of hope, however misguided, to the people. Germany was defeated and humiliated, Hitler manipulated the people for his personal gain; he was an opportunist. This hope was so powerful that I had so much faith invested into the idea. I was unable to see the opportunism inherent in Hitler. I would say that it is more with disbelief that someone or something could do somthing so horrible. It would shake ones very foundation.
You don't see it as a natural outgrowth of all the crap he spouted against jews, then?

You don't see it as a natural outgrowth of all the crap he spouted against jews, then?
Oh, I'm not denying that. That is certainly a major part of it, but I believe that my previous first also comprises the core of the problem.

Oh, I'm not denying that. That is certainly a major part of it, but I believe that my previous first also comprises the core of the problem.
I don't feel this sort of scapegoating is healthy, though. You only have to look at the results it had to see that. I have no idea what the hell Avalon is on about here, but there was a holocaust and it was one of the worst things that happened during the 20th century. It is indefensible, and trying to escape the problem by pretending it didn't happen is equally indefensible. I don't have the words to attack this kind of drivel equally. Were the other four million who weren't Jewish still gassed if no jews were killed? You'd be able to call that risible if it wasn't defending an abomination.

I know the Holocaust happened, but I really don't care anymore. The minority of Jewish victims have gotten enough pity, and it's someone else's turn.

I don't feel this sort of scapegoating is healthy, though. You only have to look at the results it had to see that. I have no idea what the hell Avalon is on about here, but there was a holocaust and it was one of the worst things that happened during the 20th century. It is indefensible, and trying to escape the problem by pretending it didn't happen is equally indefensible. I don't have the words to attack this kind of drivel equally. Were the other four million who weren't Jewish still gassed if no jews were killed? You'd be able to call that risible if it wasn't defending an abomination.
I am not denying that the Holocaust happen, one needs only to observe history to prove that. However, I am stating that faith is a factor. If one invests a substantial amount of faith in an ideal, one becomes blind because of it. Denial is a way, albeit baseless and ineffective aside from oneself, to escape the overwhelming reality. Conspiracy theories become acceptable until you're completely myred in it.

I am not denying that the Holocaust happen, one needs only to observe history to prove that. However, I am stating that faith is a factor. If one invests a substantial amount of faith in an ideal, one becomes blind because of it. Denial is a way, albeit baseless and ineffective aside from oneself, to escape the overwhelming reality. Conspiracy theories become acceptable until you're completely myred in it.

So you're saying you'd rather live blind to everything you do not like? Why would you ever want to live like that? Ignorance is not bliis, things need to be studied because we do not need to have them happen again, ever. I hope that you understand my point, as I do understand yours.

So you're saying you'd rather live blind to everything you do not like? Why would you ever want to live like that? Ignorance is not bliis, things need to be studied because we do not need to have them happen again, ever. I hope that you understand my point, as I do understand yours.
I will answer simply. Everything is clear through spectacles of ideology. When one believes something so strongly, one does become as you've described. I couldn't see the truth because a lie seemed like heaven.

I will answer simply. Everything is clear through spectacles of ideology. When one believes something so strongly, one does become as you've described. I couldn't see the truth because a lie seemed like heaven.

It depends on what kind of ideology. I'd just rather not live blindly to things that have happened. That is all I will say since I do not want to start a flame war.

I am not denying that the Holocaust happen, one needs only to observe history to prove that. However, I am stating that faith is a factor. If one invests a substantial amount of faith in an ideal, one becomes blind because of it. Denial is a way, albeit baseless and ineffective aside from oneself, to escape the overwhelming reality. Conspiracy theories become acceptable until you're completely myred in it.
You don't feel that's just an excuse for the people who did this awful stuff, though?

It depends on what kind of ideology. I'd just rather not live blindly to things that have happened. That is all I will say since I do not want to start a flame war.

A lot more people would, because it's easier to believe a lie than it is to face the truth. Ideology is comfortable.

You don't feel that's just an excuse for the people who did this awful stuff, though?
It's more of the reasoning behind denying the Holocaust. I'll use an example, you invest time, effort, and faith in someone. They are given the tools, but they fail. The shock is tremendous and denial is usually the first personal rationalization.

A lot more people would, because it's easier to believe a lie than it is to face the truth. Ideology is comfortable.
I just don't understand why anyone would want to live a lie basically. Screw it, we're not going to prove anything by doing this. We believe different things and I should accept that. I'm just stubborn sometimes.

Heh... my grandfather took several pictures of mass graves filled with holocaust victems. When someone starts spouting crap about how the holocaust never happened, I show them pictures of people digging up bodies. You can still see the looks on the victims faces... It's absolutely disgusting.

I just don't understand why anyone would want to live a lie basically. Screw it, we're not going to prove anything by doing this. We believe different things and I should accept that. I'm just stubborn sometimes.

You can't understand it; that's what makes it so powerful and so frightening. I personally could never fall under that sway and would never want to, but when people are desparate they will embrace it even more readily.

You can't understand it; that's what makes it so powerful and so frightening. I personally could never fall under that sway and would never want to, but when people are desparate they will embrace it even more readily.
Exactly my point.

It's more of the reasoning behind denying the Holocaust. I'll use an example, you invest time, effort, and faith in someone. They are given the tools, but they fail. The shock is tremendous and denial is usually the first personal rationalization.
I have no idea how it wouldn't. That doesn't alter the fact that this happened, though. The most civilised nation in Europe became a charnel house for the best part of a decade. Anyone who wants to deny that happened is opening the way for it to happen again. I can't understand that reasoning.

I just don't understand why anyone would want to live a lie basically. Screw it, we're not going to prove anything by doing this. We believe different things and I should accept that. I'm just stubborn sometimes.Who said anything about wanting to live a lie? If you believe something, you dont know that it's a lie do you?

I have no idea how it wouldn't. That doesn't alter the fact that this happened, though. The most civilised nation in Europe became a charnel house for the best part of a decade. Anyone who wants to deny that happened is opening the way for it to happen again. I can't understand that reasoning.
Basically it's a refusal to accept it. One may not admit it openly, but subconsciosuly there is denial. It's ideology.

I was disgusted by the other thread. Everyone attacked the "flamebaiter" who simply voiced out his opinion with some sources to back it up. Very few would be willing to take a swipe at his points with mature discussion.

Most of the holocaust-existed debaters therefore lost because they did nothing but bash the threadstarter. He showed you off. He made you look like a bunch of assholes, while you were there spouting off shit at him, and he was mature, trying to actually discuss the topic.

Of course, this doesn't change the fact whether it did or did not exists, just that the amount of immaturity was appalling. I applaud the people that actually debated the motion calmly and collectively.

I think these people should be ashamed of themselves. Just because something is widely accepted does not make it fact. You have to back up your claims instead of just bash those who disagree. Simply because all Americans thought communism was evil back in the cold war did not make it true.

Now, once again, I assure you, I'm not voicing my opinion about this. I'm simply saying that if someone disagrees with the majority, they should be proven wrong in the most cool manner, instead of berated and ignored.

Who said anything about wanting to live a lie? If you believe something, you dont know that it's a lie do you?
You have a very valid point. I didn't realize it until now. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I am beginning to like this forum very much.

Of course the Holocaust happened. The only thing about the further discussion that anoys me is the fact that it only gets discussed from the perspective of the Jews.

While obviously they were a target, they were not the only target as the popular discussion seems to focus on. Homosexuals, gypsies, jehova's witnesses and other groups were equally determined to be deserving of a Final Solution.

Nobody ever gives a shit about them though it seems....

I was disgusted by the other thread. Everyone attacked the "flamebaiter" who simply voiced out his opinion with some sources to back it up. Very few would be willing to take a swipe at his points with mature discussion.

Most of the holocaust-existed debaters therefore lost because they did nothing but bash the threadstarter. He showed you off. He made you look like a bunch of assholes, while you were there spouting off shit at him, and he was mature, trying to actually discuss the topic.

Of course, this doesn't change the fact whether it did or did not exists, just that the amount of immaturity was appalling. I applaud the people that actually debated the motion calmly and collectively.

I think these people should be ashamed of themselves. Just because something is widely accepted does not make it fact. You have to back up your claims instead of just bash those who disagree. Simply because all Americans thought communism was evil back in the cold war did not make it true.

Now, once again, I assure you, I'm not voicing my opinion about this. I'm simply saying that if someone disagrees with the majority, they should be proven wrong in the most cool manner, instead of berated and ignored.


Communism wasn't evil. It just didn't work and will not ever work because of the natural nature of mankind. We are apes basically. We just don't grunt.

Of course the Holocaust happened. The only thing about the further discussion that anoys me is the fact that it only gets discussed from the perspective of the Jews.

While obviously they were a target, they were not the only target as the popular discussion seems to focus on. Homosexuals, gypsies, jehova's witnesses and other groups were equally determined to be deserving of a Final Solution.

Nobody ever gives a shit about them though it seems....
yeah...if they weren't the only ones who got attention and benefitted from the Holocaust today, I would give a shit that it happened at all

Communism wasn't evil. It just didn't and will not ever work because of the natural nature of mankind. We are apes basically. We just don't grunt.

Yet it was widely regarded as evil and to be exterminated. And same applies to slavery and discrimination... it was widely accepted that slavery was ok and normal. Just because it's widely accepted does not mean that whoever disagrees should be shut out. They should be disproven if possible.

Communism wasn't evil. It just didn't work and will not ever work because of the natural nature of mankind. We are apes basically. We just don't grunt.
It is evil, because to try and make it reality requires you to commit massive human rights violations.

"Rationally and reasonably" denying the holocaust is impossible, this thread is spam.

It is evil, because to try and make it reality requires you to commit massive human rights violations.
It depends on the system of rights that one subscribes to.

"Rationally and reasonable" denying the holocause is impossible, this thread is spam.

"Rationally and reasonably" proving the holocaust is impossible, any thread that tries to prove the holocaust happened is spam.

And yes, I am sarcastic, if only to show you the lack of logic in your argument to close down this discussion.

I was disgusted by the other thread. Everyone attacked the "flamebaiter" who simply voiced out his opinion with some sources to back it up. Very few would be willing to take a swipe at his points with mature discussion.

Most of the holocaust-existed debaters therefore lost because they did nothing but bash the threadstarter. He showed you off. He made you look like a bunch of assholes, while you were there spouting off shit at him, and he was mature, trying to actually discuss the topic.

Of course, this doesn't change the fact whether it did or did not exists, just that the amount of immaturity was appalling. I applaud the people that actually debated the motion calmly and collectively.

I think these people should be ashamed of themselves. Just because something is widely accepted does not make it fact. You have to back up your claims instead of just bash those who disagree. Simply because all Americans thought communism was evil back in the cold war did not make it true.

Now, once again, I assure you, I'm not voicing my opinion about this. I'm simply saying that if someone disagrees with the majority, they should be proven wrong in the most cool manner, instead of berated and ignored.

yep I posted the information which featured no racial slander or profanity and brilliant people like cahnt politely answered back with words like "cockbreath" and "****"...I never wanted people like him posting in my threads and I made that clear with the 3rd post...but he just wouldnt stop and I guess thats how he gets his fix or something. So whatever let him do it.

It depends on the system of rights that one subscribes to.
Living and having stuff is usually pretty basic, and when you aren't allowed to have certain stuff, the living thing is usually in jeopardy from any government oppressive enough to tamper with the having stuff right of things



i have to tell you brother

it is cold outside and there is WATER FALLING from the FUCKING SKY

this phnenomenum is unlike ANY I HAVE EVER SEEN BEFORE

COMMANDER SPOCK YOU PRESANCE IS REQUISTED ON TH EBRIDGE

I was disgusted by the other thread. Everyone attacked the "flamebaiter" who simply voiced out his opinion with some sources to back it up. Very few would be willing to take a swipe at his points with mature discussion.

Most of the holocaust-existed debaters therefore lost because they did nothing but bash the threadstarter. He showed you off. He made you look like a bunch of assholes, while you were there spouting off shit at him, and he was mature, trying to actually discuss the topic.

Of course, this doesn't change the fact whether it did or did not exists, just that the amount of immaturity was appalling. I applaud the people that actually debated the motion calmly and collectively.

I think these people should be ashamed of themselves. Just because something is widely accepted does not make it fact. You have to back up your claims instead of just bash those who disagree. Simply because all Americans thought communism was evil back in the cold war did not make it true.

Now, once again, I assure you, I'm not voicing my opinion about this. I'm simply saying that if someone disagrees with the majority, they should be proven wrong in the most cool manner, instead of berated and ignored.

Well you see we are on a little thing called the world wide web. Now just bear with me for a moment because this may be a little hard for some people to swallow. There is no actual human interaction on the web, no real consequences to the actions committed, and no real sense of who others are. Now couple this with someone making a post denying something which is a fact. No one really has to respond to the post with a rational arguement because we all already know that the poster is a crackpot and we are all right. You'd see the same thing with someone comming in here saying there is nothing wrong with slavery and the South should have been allowed to secede. Frankly Defiant I couldn't give a rats ass about refuting that poster because he's wrong period so I won't waste my time disproving a crazy fringe belief.

Living and having stuff is usually pretty basic, and when you aren't allowed to have certain stuff, the living thing is usually in jeopardy from any government oppressive enough to tamper with the having stuff right of things

We are NOT debating communism. It was simply an example of how people thought it was so evil and nowadays more people than before lean to the left. If you still think it's evil, then sorry, the analogy does not work with you. Try to use on of my other analogies.

i have to tell you brother

it is cold outside and there is WATER FALLING from the FUCKING SKY

this phnenomenum is unlike ANY I HAVE EVER SEEN BEFORE

COMMANDER SPOCK YOU PRESANCE IS REQUISTED ON TH EBRIDGE

What does this have to do with anything? If it were a Star Trek quote, I'd respect that, but there is no profanity in Star Trek, so it's worthless.

"Rationally and reasonably" proving the holocaust is impossible, any thread that tries to prove the holocaust happened is spam.

And yes, I am sarcastic, if only to show you the lack of logic in your argument to close down this discussion.

Actually he was right. To rationally and reasonably deny something that really happened requires the person to be neither rational nor reasonable. On the other hand proving something that has really happened is merely a matter of using the proof that was used to make the claims irrefutable in the eyes of a rational and reasonable. For example, the Earth has a Moon. Prove it? Use the scienfic method to determine the existance of a natural satellite orbiting the Earth. But how would you prove the Moon didnt exist? The only way a person could honestly deny it's existance would require the person to lack the capacity to accept the data.

Well you see we are on a little thing called the world wide web. Now just bear with me for a moment because this may be a little hard for some people to swallow. There is no actual human interaction on the web, no real consequences to the actions committed, and no real sense of who others are. Now couple this with someone making a post denying something which is a fact.

Simply because there is total anonymity on the Internet does not justify people acting like complete asses.

No one really has to respond to the post with a rational arguement because we all already know that the poster is a crackpot and we are all right.

You do realize what you just said, right? I think you better look over that.

You'd see the same thing with someone comming in here saying there is nothing wrong with slavery and the South should have been allowed to secede.

My point exactly is that if forums existed back when slavery was in action, and somebody came in here and started arguing "Slavery is evil", that person would be considered a total crackpot and everyone would mock him, instead of actually try to prove him wrong. Just because something is widely accepted does not make it true. Therefore, it's not right to simply berate a person that does not agree with public opinion.

Frankly Defiant I couldn't give a rats ass about refuting that poster because he's wrong period so I won't waste my time disproving a crazy fringe belief.

Then that's your prerogative. I myself do believe the Holocaust happened, but I don't feel like wasting my time either. So what do I do? I don't post.

If you're going to post, post something useful, like arguments for and against. If you're just going to berate a poster because his opinion is opposite to that of the majority, then it's better if you don't post. Because frankly, it makes your side look like asses with only profanity and ignorance to opposing arguments to back up your case, while they actually try and debate their side.

Hmm... what was it that Einstine said about insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting something different each time?

The fact of the Holocaust isn't debatable, nor is it worth actually trying to correct someone to says that it didn't happen. After viewing mounds of evidence, the films, the pictures, the survivors, everything, and they still state that it never happened, why waste time talking to brick walls?

To use an analogy, we know JFK was shot. Now historians can argue who shot him, why he was shot, what happened because he was shot, the effects of his shooting, and some can even dream about what might have been if he never was shot, but only very, very silly people believe that he wasn't shot.

Actually he was right. To rationally and reasonably deny something that really happened requires the person to be neither rational nor reasonable. On the other hand proving something that has really happened is merely a matter of using the proof that was used to make the claims irrefutable in the eyes of a rational and reasonable. For example, the Earth has a Moon. Prove it? Use the scienfic method to determine the existance of a natural satellite orbiting the Earth. But how would you prove the Moon didnt exist? The only way a person could honestly deny it's existance would require the person to lack the capacity to accept the data.

Yeah, you're right for the most part. In this case, maybe some logical fallacies or stuff like that could refute or put doubt into the occurance of the holocaust, but I'm not about to get into the debate. I simply want people to debate it instead of totally dismiss the other side and be done with the thread.

It's like making a thread saying "I believe in God", and 10 atheists coming in and berating the person for believing in God, because the majority of this board does not believe in God. The thread is then "flamebait" since it's a widely accepted fact that God does not exist, it is spam, and the poster is a moron for suggesting something like that.

What does this have to do with anything? If it were a Star Trek quote, I'd respect that, but there is no profanity in Star Trek, so it's worthless.
what about 'dammit jim' all the time

what about 'dammit jim' all the time

I've never considered "damn" and "hell" to be profane enough to be "profanity". They are impolite in a formal situation, but not profanity in a normal situation.

Will the next thread be:
"Rational and reasonable discussion about 9/11: Jews did 9/11?"

Simply because there is total anonymity on the Internet does not justify people acting like complete asses.
I never said anything about it being justified. More along the lines of the fact that these factors promote this sort of behavior.



You do realize what you just said, right? I think you better look over that.
Yes I realize that I said I don't have to waste time disproving someone who thinks the holocaust didn't happen on line. Is that a hard thing to grasp?



My point exactly is that if forums existed back when slavery was in action, and somebody came in here and started arguing "Slavery is evil", that person would be considered a total crackpot and everyone would mock him, instead of actually try to prove him wrong. Just because something is widely accepted does not make it true. Therefore, it's not right to simply berate a person that does not agree with public opinion.
I was talking about the present not the past. It is irrelevant to this arguement that people used to think slavery was okay in the past as we now know its not. I was making an example of what would happen if someone else came on here and stated a wrong opinion about something considered a fact. Besides the guy denied the holocaust happend. How many people do you think will not be offended by that statement and respond rationally?



Then that's your prerogative. I myself do believe the Holocaust happened, but I don't feel like wasting my time either. So what do I do? I don't post.
Thats great and all and I made a few posts commenting on some points without attacking the poster. The point is really that the guy made a rediculous claim that people do not respond to very nicely.

If you're going to post, post something useful, like arguments for and against. If you're just going to berate a poster because his opinion is opposite to that of the majority, then it's better if you don't post. Because frankly, it makes your side look like asses with only profanity and ignorance to opposing arguments to back up your case, while they actually try and debate their side.
This is the NS forums. The whole world won't be like OMG T3H NS FORUMS INSULTED A NEO NAZI111111 SO THE NAZI WON THE ARGUEMENT. Get over yourself and realize its an online forum for christs sake.

I agree, this forum isn't the last standoff between good and evil...
*Grabs giant gleaming sword, suddenly puts on 120 lbs of muscle and attacks some skeleton of evil...*

Will the next thread be:
"Rational and reasonable discussion about 9/11: Jews did 9/11?"
It's worth discussing. There's some pretty bad shit going down involving the covetous Jew right around 9/11.

I never said anything about it being justified. More along the lines of the fact that these factors promote this sort of behavior.

Well thank you then. I will assume that you were simply explaining why this is happening, and not agreeing or disagreeing with it.

Yes I realize that I said I don't have to waste time disproving someone who thinks the holocaust didn't happen on line. Is that a hard thing to grasp?

No, you said "we are all right". It's hard to grasp an intelligent person (like you seem to be) claiming they are right and the poster is wrong instead of doing anything to prove or disprove either claim.

I was talking about the present not the past. It is irrelevant to this arguement that people used to think slavery was okay in the past as we now know its not. I was making an example of what would happen if someone else came on here and stated a wrong opinion about something considered a fact.

It is totally relevant! I just proved to you that the majority opinion is not always the correct one, as it was the majority opinion that slavery was ok, now we know that it's not.

Besides the guy denied the holocaust happend. How many people do you think will not be offended by that statement and respond rationally?

I'm guessing very many people will respond irrationally, which is a bad thing, because they are letting their emotions get in the way. Emotions are no good in a debate.

Thats great and all and I made a few posts commenting on some points without attacking the poster.

Well then, I'm not talking about you. If you haven't attacked the poster, then you don't fall in the category of the people I was disgusted by.

The point is really that the guy made a rediculous claim that people do not respond to very nicely to put it.

And I was saying that it is wrong to respond "not very nicely" simply because somebody has stated something that goes against the opinions of the majority.

This is the NS forums. The whole world won't be like OMG T3H NS FORUMS INSULTED A NEO NAZI111111 SO THE NAZI WON THE ARGUEMENT. Get over yourself and realize its an online forum for christs sake.

What's the point then? OMG A KID DIED IN SOME INSIGNIFICANT CITY!!! It's only one kid out of six billion peopel.

Simply because we are insignificant does not mean that we should start behaving immaturely.

Well thank you then. I will assume that you were simply explaining why this is happening, and not agreeing or disagreeing with it.
Yep I really didn't take any action in that thread. It was more of a good read.


No, you said "we are all right". It's hard to grasp an intelligent person (like you seem to be) claiming they are right and the poster is wrong instead of doing anything to prove or disprove either claim.
In the arguement of wheter or not the holocaust happened I'm going to stick with the we are all right and the other guy is wrong part.:rolleyes:



It is totally relevant! I just proved to you that the majority opinion is not always the correct one, as it was the majority opinion that slavery was ok, now we know that it's not.
I was talking about the present. Your talking about the past. I don't care what the people back then thought because we know its wrong now. Its about making a blatantly wrong statement on a fact.



I'm guessing very many people will respond irrationally, which is a bad thing, because they are letting their emotions get in the way. Emotions are no good in a debate.
I wouldn't call that thread a debate thread. The guy just copy and pasted an arguement from a incredibly biased site and posted it here. Thats not a debate thats trolling.


And I was saying that it is wrong to respond "not very nicely" simply because somebody has stated something that goes against the opinions of the majority.
Two points. First the thread really wasn't a debate. And secondly you go to any public place and start saying the holocaust didn't happen and see what the reaction is. The holocaust is an extremely emotional event so in a debate on that your definately going to get emotion.



What's the point then? OMG A KID DIED IN SOME INSIGNIFICANT CITY!!! It's only one kid out of six billion peopel.
Apples to oranges here. Your comparing the murder of a kid to a discussion on an internet forum. Not really the same thing.

Simply because we are insignificant does not mean that we should start behaving immaturely.
What I'm saying is you shouldn't make such a big deal over what happened on NS.

I just don't see how it is possible to deny the holocaust!
What about all the pictures? Were all those people faking death? Or were all those pictures of concentration camps fabricated? It's insanity, I tell ya!

I just don't see how it is possible to deny the holocaust!
What about all the pictures? Were all those people faking death? Or were all those pictures of concentration camps fabricated? It's insanity, I tell ya!
yes they were all fabricated and everyone is faking
especially the people (they must have been Jews, since only Jews died in the fucking Holocaust, right? FUCK THEM UP THE ASS GRRR) pretending to have tried to climb out of ovens

Of course the Holocaust happened. The only thing about the further discussion that anoys me is the fact that it only gets discussed from the perspective of the Jews.

While obviously they were a target, they were not the only target as the popular discussion seems to focus on. Homosexuals, gypsies, jehova's witnesses and other groups were equally determined to be deserving of a Final Solution.

Nobody ever gives a shit about them though it seems....
Don't forget about the Polish.