NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not saying they don't have a right to their opinions, I'm just saying we shouldn't have to treat them in a special way just because they don't believe in god.

And no one is suggesting we should "treat them in a special way." They are simply asking for the same respect we would expect for ourselves. Would you want your tax dollars going into putting up a Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/Jewish/Wiccan/etc. monument? Would you want to pay for their religious celebrations?

I have plenty of athiest friends who don't care one way or another if Christian or other symbols are shown in public. They ignore them, and the other atheists can as well.

No one has a problem with religious symbols being "shown in public". They have a problem with religious symbols being "paid for by the public." There is a difference.

You have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Not the right to never see anything that offends you.

You do have the right not to pay for anything religious that offends you - the 1st Amendment gives it to you.

if you want that, move to a communist utopia somewhere,preferably, on another planet.

Why do people who don't know what they are talking about always assume communist = atheist? Christ himself taught many principles that might be considered "communist".

I'm not saying they don't have a right to their opinions, I'm just saying we shouldn't have to treat them in a special way just because they don't believe in god. I have plenty of athiest friends who don't care one way or another if Christian or other symbols are shown in public. They ignore them, and the other atheists can as well. You have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Not the right to never see anything that offends you. if you want that, move to a communist utopia somewhere,preferably, on another planet.

Unfortunately, America tries to keep mostly everyone happy as possible, although we all know that's impossible. Sure, later on in the history of America we've done some pretty stupid stuff- we're a close-minded nation, and it's sad but true. We see ourselves as an open democracy, but we're really a closed minded one, in the manner that we still do some things that are purposely made to offend minorities and the like. Human nature's funny that way, when you find someone different, you have to make fun of them for being that way so that they KNOW they're not like you. People are jerks, and it just can't be helped; the reason Christians are bashed so much is because there are a lot of jerks in the world that see them as different, so they decide to poke fun of and make them feel even worse about themselves.

Aren't people just lovely rays of sunshine?

1." Under god "removed from the pledge

So what? Would it make you less Christian to have those words removed?

2. Christmas removed from all school calenders as a holiday for students

Proof, please.

3."In god we trust" removed from our money.

So what? Would it make you less Christian to have those words removed?

4. Disallow any form of religious anything in school.

The same laws that stop a teacher from making kids pray to Jesus in class are the same laws that would stop me, as a teacher, from forcing your Christian child in my class to face Mecca and recite Salat in prostration to Allah. Do you *really* want them to repeal those laws?

They do not run our country. We do, and we will reclaim our power.

No, you do not run this country. You run your mouth on an internet forum. You'd be surprised at the number of Senators and Congressmen who are not Christian. Some of them are Atheist, some Pagan, some Jewish, some even Homosexuals!

Why should we care about the few dissenters when we have in place a system that works for the overwealming majority? I see no reason to cater to the few.

That's because you're ....

far right wing and proud of it

Dun dun dunnnnnnnnnnn!

...no one's gonna assault my religion or my rights and get away with it

From Bin Laden's lips to your ears. Good on you ... part of the American Taliban. Sure hope that helps you sleep at night. In the meantime, in the real world of secular America, we keep people like you compliant with righteous internet indignation.

Welcome to the machine. We run it ... you do not.

I don't know if any of you have taken the time to notice and I may be reading a bit to much into this but...
I think we are on the brink of a second american civil war and I'll tell you why.
1.The country is the most divided its been since before the civil war.
2.The first civil war was preceeded by and era of liberalism in many facets of american society (current parallel: the 60's)
3. Religiously, many sides and factions are vying for control, both internally and externally in respect to various religions.
4. A series of disasters (economic and natural) stuck the south.

and the list of parallels goes on. All that would have to happen is a cataclysmic event that sunders the nation and we would be in one.

Kinda off topic but religion is one of the things dividing us, so I say we just allow current the current state of religion in the U.S to stay as it is becuase as far as I'm concerned its just right.

I only discriminate against stupid, bigotted, right-wing knee-jerk reactionary Christians. Unfortunately, that's 90% of this state. I do know some "good" Christians, but they usually aren't the ones that think they are.

If you believe that "secular america" is the machine then you are horribly mistaken. While some senators are not christian,most are, as is this nation. The U.S is roughly 85% christian as I said earlier and most of us hate the fact that the few are trying to turn us into a secular, socialist paradise.

In reguards to being bigotted...I don't care, hell, I'm proud of it. We need someone to balence out the sissys that won't stand up to the minorities and take back this nation for the majority.

Kinda off topic but religion is one of the things dividing us, so I say we just allow current the current state of religion in the U.S to stay as it is becuase as far as I'm concerned its just right.

Let me say this in the most gentle way possible:

"NO ONE IS TRYING TO DISALLOW RELIGION IN THE US!"

Ok, done.

I only discriminate against stupid, bigotted, right-wing knee-jerk reactionary Christians. Unfortunately, that's 90% of this state. I do know some "good" Christians, but they usually aren't the ones that think they are.

I think the reason i personally ridicule the christian faith at every given moment is something to do with the kkk the crusades and many other bigoted ideas the church has been a part of such as being against gay marriage?

Because they are at this moment attempting to get
1." Under god "removed from the pledge
2. Christmas removed from all school calenders as a holiday for students
3."In god we trust" removed from our money.
4. Disallow any form of religious anything in school.

They do not run our country. We do, and we will reclaim our power.

You do not run our country, we do. The rational people of all faiths including Christianity that respect religious freedom and don't need the government to advance our faith. As a Christian, I don't have so little faith in Christianity that I'm worried it will whither and die without forcing others to endorse it. I am, however, concerned about letting the government have ANYTHING to do with my faith. The actions of the US government are not ordained by God and I resent the implication that it is found in the pledge, the money and such things. I'm sorry that your faith needs bolstering by the government. Mine is strong enough to survive without it. I'm sad that you feel you need to reclaim your power. My power comes from faith and it cannot be claimed but any I don't give it to. It's unfortunate that you can only have your power back if the government pretends to have faith in your religion.

I am so fricken tired of the politicaly correct attitude of many people here. Why should we care about the few dissenters when we have in place a system that works for the overwealming majority? I see no reason to cater to the few.

Because it's not a few dissenters. This country was founded on respecting the freedom of others, on a 'few dissenters'. Your system does not work for the overwhelming majority. In fact it works for a small minority of Christians that make a lot of noise. The rest of us are respectful of other people's freedoms. 'I see no reason to cater to the few'.

(I am far right wing and proud of it...no one's gonna assault my religion or my rights and get away with it.)
No one is assaulting your religion. People are assaulting its involvement in the government because it is an assault on their religion. Don't be bitter just because people are starting to stand up and correct the ridiculous errors of the Cold War. I promise when it's all said and done, you'll still be able to holler about people going to hell, you just won't be able to do it in school.

you christians need to just shut up.... I have had enough of your crap.... This is all payback for how you all ruined the world. just look at the Crusades! was that just another "oopsie" in history?

I come from a predominately christian family and I hate it. I have had it up to here with all of the "Jesus loves you" stuff. Let's get one thing straight. JESUS HATES ME AND ALWAYS WILL!!!!

Another point I want add here is about you wanting the support of the gov't. No good gov't will side with a religious group. this is called SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, and every GOOD government uses it.


I am a deist who thinks that the christians of the world need to open their eyes.


have any of you ever listened to the people in a mass? They sound like they are mesmerized and brainwashed. It is all monotonous repetitions......


With all due respect,
your local deist,
Le Duc de Poisson

If you believe that "secular america" is the machine then you are horribly mistaken. While some senators are not christian,most are, as is this nation.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;

Meanwhile, being Christian does not mean that you have to try and legislate Christianity and force your religion upon others. In fact, I think Christ would be rather opposed to the idea of forced religion....

The U.S is roughly 85% christian as I said earlier and most of us hate the fact that the few are trying to turn us into a secular, socialist paradise.

Again with the idioitic assumption that secularism = atheism = socialism.

If you believe that "secular america" is the machine then you are horribly mistaken. While some senators are not christian,most are, as is this nation. The U.S is roughly 85% christian as I said earlier and most of us hate the fact that the few are trying to turn us into a secular, socialist paradise.

According to the most recent US Census and many, many other polls on religious affiliation, the US has only a 74-76% Christian population.

Now, that said, we remind you of the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..."

As my religion decrees that praying to any human form or in the name of anyone is a great blasphemy, it is, thereofre, prohibiting the free excercise of my religion to force me to pray to Jesus. The Founding Fathers knew this and, thus, put in that little bit about not being allowed to make laws as such.

We also remind you of there being no religious or moral litmus test for the election of any public official as enumerated in Articles I - III, further proving the United States to be a secular nation. If this was founded or was intended to be a Christian nation, the framers of the Constitution would have said so. They, in fact, said the opposite.

You are free to practice your religion, just as I am. What you are not free to do is to stop me practicing mine or forcing me to practice yours.

If you believe you have that right, try it. I dare you.

Because they are at this moment attempting to get
1." Under god "removed from the pledge
2. Christmas removed from all school calenders as a holiday for students
3."In god we trust" removed from our money.
4. Disallow any form of religious anything in school.

They do not run our country. We do, and we will reclaim our power.

I am so fricken tired of the politicaly correct attitude of many people here. Why should we care about the few dissenters when we have in place a system that works for the overwealming majority? I see no reason to cater to the few.

(I am far right wing and proud of it...no one's gonna assault my religion or my rights and get away with it.)
Then you are part of the problem. Jesus said, "Do not resist the evil man [ who injures you ]; but if anyone strikes you on the right jaw or cheek, turn to him the other one too.. And if anyone whats to sue you and take your undershirt ( tunic ), let him have your coat also. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two [ miles ]. Give to him who keeps on begging from you, and do not turn away from him who would borrow from you.

"You have heard it said 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy;' but I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. [ This is ] to show that you are the children of your Father Who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the wicked and on the good, and makes the rain fall upon the upright and the wrongdoers alike." - Matthew 5:39-45

This is one of the primary reasons why Christianity has been so successful over the centuries, not because of the sword or the missionary or the proselytizer, but because some few Christians understood that the above instructions from Jesus stood in such stark contrast to the way most of the world operates that it startles people, gets their attention, and makes them wonder why Christians are so different.

If you believe that "secular america" is the machine then you are horribly mistaken. While some senators are not christian,most are, as is this nation. The U.S is roughly 85% christian as I said earlier and most of us hate the fact that the few are trying to turn us into a secular, socialist paradise.

In reguards to being bigotted...I don't care, hell, I'm proud of it. We need someone to balence out the sissys that won't stand up to the minorities and take back this nation for the majority.

Um, you're wrong. Most Christians don't rely on the government for their faith and don't view religious freedom as an attack. It seems to me that the first settlers came here looking for something... what was it? Um, religious freedom, maybe? The country was founded on protecting the minority from tyranny of the majority. There are many parts of the constitution designed around such a thing, most of them are in the bill of rights.

Quick note: In reguards to the cold war era. McCARTHY ROCKS! GO GET THEM COMMIES!

Quick note: In reguards to the cold war era. McCARTHY ROCKS! GO GET THEM COMMIES!

Ok I've just noticed two things ....

1] Never mind.

2] Your name, when broken down, means "eater of the dead" ... a Necrovore.

I can't take you seriously anymore. Yuk it up. :p

One problem with the theory that everyone feels great about religion in the U.S at this time. Last week, some nut from california was protesting people saying "Merry Christmas". Last time I checked, Christmas break was started BECAUSE OF CHRISTMAS and it is the major holiday around this time.

No I'm serious. My beliefs are what I have put down. In reguards to my name...Nekulor was what I meant to put down but mistyped...Nekulor is the name of my level 23 drow palemaster (yes I play D&D) and well on his way to level 24 lich (or soul eater...not sure yet).

One problem with the theory that everyone feels great about religion in the U.S at this time. Last week, some nut from california was protesting people saying "Merry Christmas".

One guy doesn't like Christmas and that somehow equates to some huge atheist movement?

Last time I checked, Christmas break was started BECAUSE OF CHRISTMAS and it is the major holiday around this time.

Happy Christmahaunakwanzikadan!

It's hard to take a ranting newb seriously anyway.

Poisson, do I perhaps know you under another name?

I think we are on the brink of a second american civil war...
A lot of us outside the States thought Bush's re-election would do that. Some hoped, but most of us just wanted you to realise the divide and either do something to fix it or split up into two states.

A lot of us outside the States thought Bush's re-election would do that. Some hoped, but most of us just wanted you to realise the divide and either do something to fix it or split up into two states.

I may seem so, but we arn't so polarized to the point of civil war.

Alright...now that my rant is done I feel better...that had been building up for years.


and I am so not a noob. I usually do my debating over at the forums for Necrorise and Died along the Way, both morrowind mods. However, I'm over here because the forums have descended into spam anarchy.If you want to drop in, my section devoted to my mod is tightly moderated by myself (I keep the spam out...but otherwise i don't care what you post).

*snip*

Didn't Jesus have a name for people who stood on street corners (just as easily applied to internet forums) proclaiming their faith? What was that name? Hypocrites. And when you attempt to control the world and force people to listen to how holy you are, Jesus said something about that too. He said you'll already gotten your reward, on earth. In Heaven, NO SOUP FOR YOU!!

Matthew 6

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

I don't walk around proclaiming what I just ranted about. I'd be shot by someone because they'd label me a nazi and decide to take me down. I do most of my debating on the internet for 3reasons.
1. I can voice my more extreme opinions here and
2. People can't shoot you through a broadband connection.
and reason 3 of 3
3. Because on the internet, no one can hear you scream.

I don't walk around proclaiming what I just ranted about. I'd be shot by someone because they'd label me a nazi and decide to take me down. I do most of my debating on the internet for 2 reasons.
1. I can voice my more extreme opinions here and
2. People can't shoot you through a broadband connection.
And I notice that you didn't comment on my Post 263 in this thread. Tsk! :p

which post was that?

When people learn to shoot through broadband connections, I'm soooo dead .

which post was that?
Um ... post 263, like I said. :)

When people learn to shoot through broadband connections, I'm soooo dead .

Excuse me, but he has every right to his opinion. We do not threaten to shoot people for their beliefs, no matter how different they are.

2. People can't shoot you through a broadband connection.
and reason 3 of 3
Obviously you've never played Shadowrun
3. Because on the internet, no one can hear you scream.
You mean in space, I'm sure.

I don't walk around proclaiming what I just ranted about. I'd be shot by someone because they'd label me a nazi and decide to take me down. I do most of my debating on the internet for 2 reasons.
1. I can voice my more extreme opinions here and
2. People can't shoot you through a broadband connection.

So getting shot is the only reason. The fact that Jesus who you claim to worship said that you shouldn't not a good enough reason. The fact that he said you will receive no reward in Heaven, not a good enough reason. The only good reason to not go against the teachings of Jesus Christ is to avoid getting shot. Good to know. Just for the record, most people don't think the only reason to follow the teachings of Jesus is to avoid getting shot so we don't see how a theocracy will do anything other than harden hearts. However, I could see how one who thinks bullets are required to follow Jesus' teachings would want government backing to spread those teachings since you'd like run out of bullets before the government would.

In reguards to 263:
While Jesus said turn the other cheek...which I usually do, I have just become increasingly pissed at what I see as an international war on Christianity. I mean, come on, the reason we're being targeted by terrorists is because of their belief that we are "infidels". Personally, I think we should rename the "war on terror" the "Second Great Crusade".

In reguards to 263:
While Jesus said turn the other cheek...which I usually do, I have just become increasingly pissed at what I see as an international war on Christianity. I mean, come on, the reason we're being targeted by terrorists is because of their belief that we are "infidels". Personally, I think we should rename the "war on terror" the "Second Great Crusade".
Then you are "far from the Kingdom of heaven."

In reguards to 263:
While Jesus said turn the other cheek...which I usually do, I have just become increasingly pissed at what I see as an international war on Christianity. I mean, come on, the reason we're being targeted by terrorists is because of their belief that we are "infidels". Personally, I think we should rename the "war on terror" the "Second Great Crusade".

Again, good to know. This says a lot about your faith. So you tried following the teachings of Jesus until you decided he was wrong. Forgive me, but the rest of us would like to keep trying without your interference.

Ok, now you're twisting what I said. My beliefs are my beliefs. I can't sit by idley as a pacifist and watch as my religion is assaulted worldwide. Sorry, isn't gonna happen. I would die before I see a day where I have to be subserviant to some group of bomb-happy terrorists. The reason we fight the war on terror is the same reason I push to see christian values upheld in this country.

War is a natural part of humanity. Sometimes you have to kill or die for what you believe in. Even the bible teaches that sometimes it is nessesary to defend yourself.

Then you are part of the problem. Jesus said, "Do not resist the evil man [ who injures you ]; but if anyone strikes you on the right jaw or cheek, turn to him the other one too.. And if anyone whats to sue you and take your undershirt ( tunic ), let him have your coat also. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two [ miles ].

I would point out, just in case you (or others) didn't know (many people don't), that taken in the context of Christ's time, all of these are forms of passive restistance. They aren't "lay down and take it," they are, instead, "Don't take it, but don't get violent either and sink to the level of those who would oppress you either." MLK was a big proponent of the types of passive resistance outlined here.

And I'm not sure where you're quoting from, but at least one of those is backwards from how you normally see it. A man was able to sue another man for his coat, but not for his undershirt. In the passage, Christ tells him to give his undershirt as well (ie. get naked in court). This would have been because, in Christ's time, the one who was naked was not shamed, but all who saw him were...

Excuse me, but he has every right to his opinion. We do not threaten to shoot people for their beliefs, no matter how different they are.
SI, as usual you are half-ass paying attention. I said when people learn to shoot over broadband I'm soooo .

SI, as usual you are half-ass paying attention. I said when people learn to shoot over broadband I'm soooo .

Heh, you presume to judge.

More like a warning to everyone.

Flame=Bad.

Ok, now you're twisting what I said. My beliefs are my beliefs. I can't sit by idley as a pacifist and watch as my religion is assaulted worldwide. Sorry, isn't gonna happen. I would die before I see a day where I have to be subserviant to some group of bomb-happy terrorists. The reason we fight the war on terror is the same reason I push to see christian values upheld in this country.

Oh, as a human being, I will defend my person. But I don't feel the need to kill people or take away their rights simply because they don't like my faith. And I certainly will never pretend that killing people is justified by Jesus or God. It's blasphemy.

God never advocated killing of any sort? Even in defense? What bible are you reading...

God never said "and let thine enemies trample thine body in any case...even if you think they shouldn't"

I personally dont talk about religon here, because no matter what some asshole on here will say your stupid because you follow it.

Because they are at this moment attempting to get

Who are "they"?

1." Under god "removed from the pledge

Yes, because some believe in another god, many gods or no gods. Freedom of religion is also the freedom from, and the freedom to no, religion. It's the freedom to believe any heck you want to, and that no one should be allowed to force you to do otherwise. It's freedom of thought.

2. Christmas removed from all school calenders as a holiday for students

I'd like some proof of that.

3."In god we trust" removed from our money.
4. Disallow any form of religious anything in school.

Same thing as under point 1.

They do not run our country. We do, and we will reclaim our power.

Who are "they", and who are "we"?

I am so fricken tired of the politicaly correct attitude of many people here. Why should we care about the few dissenters when we have in place a system that works for the overwealming majority? I see no reason to cater to the few.

Because a democracy is majority rule WITH MINORITY RIGHTS. Otherwise it's a "Tyranny of the majority" which implies that a government reflecting the majority view can take action that oppresses a particular minority. Typically, this majority is really only a relative majority of the voters and therefore only a minority. It may therefore be argued that one minority tyrannizes another minority in the name of the majority. This politically active and dominant group might decide that a certain minority (religion, political belief, etc.) should be criminalised (either directly or indirectly). This undermines the idea of democracy as an empowerment of the electorate as a whole.

What you're proposing is an Elitism where the over-priviliged gets even more priviliges while the under-priviliged gets even less.

I am far right wing...

Or with other words an extreme egoistic elitist.

...no one's gonna assault my religion or my rights and get away with it.

Who are? All that wants to be done is to allow all people rights. It's interesting that giving the same rights to the under-priviliged is seen as taking away the rights of the over-priviliged. The only thing threatened is your priviliges, which makes you the elite, not your rights.

Heh, you presume to judge.

More like a warning to everyone.

Flame=Bad.
I can judge any damn time I want to.
BTW, the last word after sooo is supposed to be % ." It keeps leaving it off. WTF?
How is that a threat or a flame?
Somebody with a grasp of standard English please explain. Evidently, that's not SI.

God never advocated killing of any sort? Even in defense? What bible are you reading...

One we're not killing defense. Two, Jesus didn't. Jesus taught us differently that what can be found in the Old Testament. He was clearly for passive resistence.

Matthew 26
52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

In fact...I hadn't yet bu let me break out my bible real quck...

God talks about granting victory to armies who legitimatly fight to defend their beliefs

Deuteronomy 20:1-20

"When you go to war against your enemies and see that their army is greater than yours, do not fear, for I am with you. Do not be afraid for the lord, you god, goes with you to victory"

Instead of powerful entities such as the Vatican, this World needs a powerful Entity which stands for all universal truths of religeon such as being nice to everyone.

I can judge any damn time I want to.
BTW, the last word after sooo is supposed to be % ." It keeps leaving it off. WTF?
How is that a threat or a flame?
Somebody with a grasp of standard English please explain. Evidently, that's not SI.

You misunderstand. I did not accuse you, or anyone else of flaming. I just wanted to remind everyone that we must all respect each other's opinion, no matter how "Different" it may be.

WOW!!
WTF!
Is it the damn public library computer I'm using or does Jolt no longer register the word for "no longer living."

In fact...I hadn't yet bu let me break out my bible real quck...

God talks about granting victory to armies who legitimatly fight to defend their beliefs

Deuteronomy 20:1-20

Ah, so you're not a Christian. I see. I was under the impression that Jesus taugh peace and love, not war and violence. I was speaking from a Christian perspective. Sorry. Carry on.

In fact...I hadn't yet bu let me break out my bible real quck...

God talks about granting victory to armies who legitimatly fight to defend their beliefs

Deuteronomy 20:1-20

"When you go to war against your enemies and see that their army is greater than yours, do not fear, for I am with you. Do not be afraid for the lord, you god, goes with you to victory"

Why is it that the "right wing" always focuses on the Old Testament, instead of (and sometimes in opposition to) Christ's teachings?

...a secular, socialist paradise.

Welcome to Sweden or Norway. ;)

You misunderstand. I did not accuse you, or anyone else of flaming. I just wanted to remind everyone that we must all respect each other's opinion, no matter how "Different" it may be.
Sorry, SI.
I guess I'm a little frustrated. They only let you stay on this damn thing for an hour, and my times about up. But my PC at home is kaput.

Why is it that the "right wing" always focuses on the Old Testament, instead of (and sometimes in opposition to) Christ's teachings?
Could it be because I converted to Judaism first, then quit it and became a born-again Christian?

Why do you think I don't live in Sweden or Norway...too many liberals...too many gays...too much pacifism in international conflict.

God never advocated killing of any sort? Even in defense? What bible are you reading...

God never said "and let thine enemies trample thine body in any case...even if you think they shouldn't"
There's a disparity between the infantile, vindictive God of the old Testament and the God who prompted Jesus: presumably He'd hit puberty in between the two.

There's a disparity between the infantile, vindictive God of the old Testament and the God who prompted Jesus: presumably He'd hit puberty in between the two.

Are you fuckin' serious? God is God, supposedly... God is Almighty etc etc etc... God wasn't a baby, or a teen with acne, and matured.. He was just god... Thhat's the dumbest thing I've ever heard...

Maybe Jesus brought out god's peaceful side. In any case...I use both testaments but the old is the most stable account because Christ didn't get a chance to write his own book :headbang: . A pity... that would settle this debate... mostly...
Dyeria...It's a joke.

Maybe Jesus brought out god's peaceful side. In any case...I use both testaments but the old is the most stable account because Christ didn't get a chance to write his own book :headbang: . A pity... that would settle this debate... mostly...

Huh? Wow. So you're saying the New Testament is less reliable than the Old Testament? Okey-dokey. I think you've definitely put yourself in a very small minority of Christians and Americans. Good thing for you that our government protects the rights of the minority as well so you are free to believe as you wish.

Are you fuckin' serious? God is God, supposedly... God is Almighty etc etc etc... God wasn't a baby, or a teen with acne, and matured.. He was just god... Thhat's the dumbest thing I've ever heard...

I'm always amazed at how bad some people are at detecting sarcasm. I know its over the internet but I dont see how anyone could have taken the god going through puberty comment seriously.

Are you fuckin' serious? God is God, supposedly... God is Almighty etc etc etc... God wasn't a baby, or a teen with acne, and matured.. He was just god... Thhat's the dumbest thing I've ever heard...

Actually, the early church included a sect of Christianity who thought that the OT God was actually a devil of sorts - a fallen angel who created the world in opposition to the actual God. They believed that the actual God had taken pity upon the creation of the OT God and had thus decided to offer salvation....

The new testament was various people's accounts of Jesus's teachings. I'm not saying it's less reliable, however there is more chance of conflicting testimony because so many had imput in that part of it.

Dempublicents-wow...that's out there. I've never heard that one before, and I wouldn't put much stock in it.

I feel as though I've accomplished my daily goal though. I got my 2 hr, horribly overwealming odds, debate. I get the odd feeling I won't win this one.

and just to surprise and confuse some of you...my favorite bands are

-Bad religion
-H.I.M
-System of a Down
-Nine Inch Nails
- Incubus
-Killswitch Engage
-Orgy

The new testament was various people's accounts of Jesus's teachings. I'm not saying it's less reliable, however there is more chance of conflicting testimony because so many had imput in that part of it.

Do you know how many people had input into the OT????

Let's see, there's the Priestly writer, who may have actually been a bunch of Priests over the years. There is the Yahwist, who seems to have compiled stories that were passed down by a tribal people for generations (wonder how many people had their hands in those stories)? There are the Psalms and Song of Solomon, most likely written by a myriad of people. Then, each of the prophets, never written down by the prophets themselves, but by followers or others long after....

Maybe Jesus brought out god's peaceful side. In any case...I use both testaments but the old is the most stable account because Christ didn't get a chance to write his own book :headbang: . A pity... that would settle this debate... mostly...
Dyeria...It's a joke.
Supposedly, Jesus covered this by saying that the reason for God's apparent vindictiveness in Old Testament times was because of "the hardness of their hearts."

It would make sense that he was more vindictive if he was pissed at his children, but that still doesn't mean that we should stand by and let tyranny/communism/fascism/marxism take over our nations. The teorrists won't stop because we pray that they'll be nicer to us.

*snip*

Actually, the early church included a sect of Christianity who thought that the OT God was actually a devil of sorts - a fallen angel who created the world in opposition to the actual God. They believed that the actual God had taken pity upon the creation of the OT God and had thus decided to offer salvation....
The Manichean heresy, you're right. Isn't that supposed to owe a lot to an older Summerian myth cycle, though?

Why do you think I don't live in Sweden or Norway[?]...too many liberals...

Actually the Social Democrats (Democratic Socialists) are in majority, in co-operation with Environmentalists. The Liberals, Libertarians and Conservative are co-operating as the opposition. Most of the Liberals are becoming Libertarians nowadays though. Liberals are becoming extinct.

...too many gays...

I believe there are more in USA actually...

...too much pacifism in international conflict.

Actually Sweden, Norway, Canada are among the countries that are best at sending peace-keeping UN troops to other countries. Better than USA.

The new testament was various people's accounts of Jesus's teachings. I'm not saying it's less reliable, however there is more chance of conflicting testimony because so many had imput in that part of it.

Dempublicents-wow...that's out there. I've never heard that one before, and I wouldn't put much stock in it.

I feel as though I've accomplished my daily goal though. I got my 2 hr, horribly overwealming odds, debate. I get the odd feeling I won't win this one.

and just to surprise and confuse some of you...my favorite bands are

-Bad religion
-H.I.M
-System of a Down
-Nine Inch Nails
- Incubus
-Killswitch Engage
-Orgy

Um, you know the Old Testament was written by multiple people as well, yes?

Don't even get me started on the "United Nothing".

I know it was written by multiple people, but it was edited by the catholic church when it was translated. No telling what they took out of the bible. Revelations is a bit cryptic isn't it?

Don't even get me started on the "United Nothing".

Prejudice, I hear...:rolleyes:

I know it was written by multiple people, but it was edited by the catholic church when it was translated. No telling what they took out of the bible. Revelations is a bit cryptic isn't it?

So the whole Bible is screwed up and you don't have to follow the teaching of Jesus because you don't want to and you want to use the government to force your beliefs on others and you want it also to kill the non-believers....

How exactly ARE you Christian? On what do you base your faith?

The UN is about as useful as the french military, and last time I checked...neither was doing anything. The UN is steeped in corruption (oil for food) and buerocracy, and France's military hasn't won a war without our help since before the U.S civil war.

I know it was written by multiple people, but it was edited by the catholic church when it was translated. No telling what they took out of the bible. Revelations is a bit cryptic isn't it?
Good grief. And you claim to be a Christian?

As far as I can see, you're still Jewish, but ultimately ashamed of it. Which's ridiculous.

So the whole Bible is screwed up and you don't have to follow the teaching of Jesus because you don't want to and you want to use the government to force your beliefs on others and you want it also to kill the non-believers....

How exactly ARE you Christian? On what do you base your faith?
Psychosis, at a guess.

Ok here's what I believe as a rundown for the confused:

All of Jesus's teachings (with some reservations on turning the other cheek all the time...hell, my pastor even says war is nessesary sometimes)
The old testament
Praying for my enemies...but willing to destroy them if they threaten me.
Help others who have attempted to help themselves (those who are too lazy deserve a second chance...but quickly wear out their welcome).
Hunting is good.

Happy now? Now you know.

Hate to break it to all the right-wing Christian nutballs out there (not saying that all Christians are right-wing nutballs, however):

Just because you're Christian doesn't mean you're guaranteed a place in Heaven.

Just because someone else is Muslim doesn't mean that they are foreordained to eternal damnation.

Just wanted to point that out.
Well....duh!

The UN is about as useful as the french military, and last time I checked...neither was doing anything. The UN is steeped in corruption (oil for food) and buerocracy, and France's military hasn't won a war without our help since before the U.S civil war.
The American military doesn't have a brilliant record with winning wars where nobody else was involved on their side either. If nothing else the French maintained a presence in Indochina for longer than the US did, and had the excuse that nobody had ever fucked up badly at Dien Bien Phu in precisely the same manner...

Jewish? Are you absurd!? I have broken every law about kosher stuff that they have (I think...don't know a whole lot about judeism). Besides...my family is half southern baptist, half southern methodist and we're originally descended from a count von questenburg of germany (family castle is about 200km south of berlin)

Jewish? Are you absurd!? I have broken every law about kosher stuff that they have (I think...don't know a whole lot about judeism). Besides...my family is half southern baptist, half southern methodist and we're originally descended from a count von questenburg of germany (family castle is about 200km south of berlin)
You seem pretty offended to be thought of as jewish...

Not offended...just extremely confused as to why you would think that I'm jewish... I'm a bit too conservative aren't I? Most Jews are more moderate than I am.

Hate to break it to all the right-wing Christian nutballs out there (not saying that all Christians are right-wing nutballs, however):

Just because you're Christian doesn't mean you're guaranteed a place in Heaven.

Just because someone else is Muslim doesn't mean that they are foreordained to eternal damnation.

Just wanted to point that out.
Well....duh!
"There is no mystery in death. The afterlife is not as it is said to be. The saved are not eternally happy. The damned are not eternally lost..."
(Saint Odhran continued his last words, coming some twelve months after his death, in this vein until Saint Columbo had him buried again.)

out of curiousity...how many people consider themselves conservative here?

Ok here's what I believe as a rundown for the confused:

All of Jesus's teachings (with some reservations on turning the other cheek all the time...hell, my pastor even says war is nessesary sometimes)
The old testament
Praying for my enemies...but willing to destroy them if they threaten me.
Help others who have attempted to help themselves (those who are too lazy deserve a second chance...but quickly wear out their welcome).
Hunting is good.

Happy now? Now you know.
Your pastor is in a position to amend the teachings of Christ? Hmmm...
Praying for your enemies? You said you don't care about the minority in this country and they aren't attacking you or trying to kill you. You've admitted to bigotry and disliking minorities. Hmmmm... I think you don't follow ALL of Jesus' teachings. I seem to remember this one he called the sum of the Law and the Prophets.

Why is Christianity bashed so much all over the world?

Maybe the world is trying to tell you something. ;)

Jewish? Are you absurd!? I have broken every law about kosher stuff that they have (I think...don't know a whole lot about judeism). Besides...my family is half southern baptist, half southern methodist and we're originally descended from a count von questenburg of germany (family castle is about 200km south of berlin)

I notice that you mention you're German when you are asked if you're Jewish. Says a little something, no? You are aware there were German Jews?

well, you have to admit...the mexicans flooding across the border aren't helping the economy. Most illegals don't pay taxes.

Yes I am aware! I have a few in my family who still live in germany.

You seem pretty offended to be thought of as jewish...
Maybe he's worried that the rest of The Organisation will kill him when the Day Of Victory for The White Races finally arrives.

out of curiousity...how many people consider themselves conservative here?
There have been several polls on this, and as I recall, most of them indicate about 25% of posters on here have conservative tendencies.

So now I'm a white supremesist? You assume I'm white? How do you know? My webcam is unhooked so you can't really hack it now can you?

out of curiousity...how many people consider themselves conservative here?

Depends... would being very different than you make me not conservative? If yes, then I'm definitely not conservative and I've never been more proud. I'm for a smaller constitutional government. Capitalism while not allowing corporations OR unions to buy elections. Protecting the rights of EVERYBODY. Changing the government so that as an entity it is agnostic and not atheist or Christian (or any other religious preference). Legalization of all drugs, of euthanasia, of suicide, of assisted suicide, whatever. Basically people should be allowed to do whatever they want to their persons so long as no one else is hurt. Stab pencils in your eyes if you like, just don't drive after you do it.

I am in the 1-5% minority then.

I took that conservative quiz thing (don't really enjoy them usually) but I scored a 125% on it...:p

Jocabia...you're as far left as I am right.

well, you have to admit...the mexicans flooding across the border aren't helping the economy. Most illegals don't pay taxes.

Yes I am aware! I have a few in my family who still live in germany.

Ah, yes, racism. And I would love to see your evidence of that statement about Mexicans 'flooding across the border'. You are aware there are many ways to participate in the economy other than paying taxes. Some economies even survive with no taxes... GASP!!

The Manichean heresy, you're right. Isn't that supposed to owe a lot to an older Summerian myth cycle, though?

It was certainly related to older beliefs, I don't recall exactly what, though.

Of course, the entire idea of a "Satan" in Jewish and Christians beliefs seems to have its roots in the Babylonian exile of Israel.

Religions "borrow" from each other all the time. Indeed, if they didn't, it would be rather difficult to find one that rang true. How could one say that 999 other beliefs were absolutely, positively wrong, but this one is absolutely, positively true? Instead, people tend to believe that there is some truth in beliefs other than their own, but that theirs is "closer" to the truth....


out of curiousity...how many people consider themselves conservative here?

I try not to label myself into any group, but others have told me that I lean towards conservatism in many things.

So now I'm a white supremesist? You assume I'm white? How do you know? My webcam is unhooked so you can't really hack it now can you?
I've yet to meet a black person on the internet who can't spell "white supremacist".

Over 1 million illegals flood across the border every year.
Source:
Fox News-O'reilly factor, 6 months ago

I am in the 1-5% minority then.

I took that conservative quiz thing (don't really enjoy them usually) but I scored a 125% on it...:p

Jocabia...you're as far left as I am right.

Really? Here I thought that conservatives were supposed to be for a smaller constitutional government and liberals wanted a huge federal albatross. Well at least you don't have the pretense that Republicans are currently attempting to create a smaller government.

I'm glad you admit you don't respect individual rights, or equal rights. Again, why put up any pretense, right? And that fool Jesus was just making stuff up when he said that nonsense about loving your neighbor as you love yourself and treating others as you wish to be treated. Forget it. Step on the throat of everyone you can. Climb the pile of bodies to get to the top. Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. :rolleyes:

Over 1 million illegals flood across the border every year.
Source:
Fox News-O'reilly factor, 6 months ago

How about a real source? Conservative hacks are hardly reliable sources. You didn't even provide a link.

well, while we're all demonizing me, why don't I just state that I think we should nuke the syria and end our terrorist problems. Sure as hell would stop the inssurgency in Iraq.

I definatly agree with the "kill em and let god sort em out" policy. Why do you think I want to genetic engineering work for the military?

Supersoldiers here we come.

Over 1 million illegals flood across the border every year.
Source:
Fox News-O'reilly factor, 6 months ago

I wouldn't generally count pundits as reliable sources, especially not O'reilly, who loves to say that protests with hundreds of thousands of people seemed "peter out"....

Depends... would being very different than you make me not conservative? If yes, then I'm definitely not conservative and I've never been more proud. I'm for a smaller constitutional government. Capitalism while not allowing corporations OR unions to buy elections. Protecting the rights of EVERYBODY. Changing the government so that as an entity it is agnostic and not atheist or Christian (or any other religious preference). Legalization of all drugs, of euthanasia, of suicide, of assisted suicide, whatever. Basically people should be allowed to do whatever they want to their persons so long as no one else is hurt. Stab pencils in your eyes if you like, just don't drive after you do it.
Sounds pretty Libertarian to me. :)

Over 1 million illegals flood across the border every year.
Source:
Fox News-O'reilly factor, 6 months ago
You're making stuff up, Nekrovia.

Source:
George W. Bush in a speech to the Sexy Geriatric Club of America, last month

O'Reilly is a great source. Better than hacks like Moore and the CNN crew.

Hell, if most of you here had your way, from what I can tell.
1.9/11 would have caused the fall of the U.S, because we shouldn't strike back.
2.Mexico would assimilate the broken U.S.
3.Mexican states of america would be formed...since there are enough mexicans here to fill New York city.
4. Right wing evangelists would be put in insane asylums...far from our nuclear silos.

well, while we're all demonizing me, why don't I just state that I think we should nuke the syria and end our terrorist problems. Sure as hell would stop the inssurgency in Iraq.
It would also stop the supply of oil to everywhere outside of the middle east: if it wasn't for that, Cheney would have talked Bush into doing it long ago.
Of course, if you really wanted to stop insurgency into Iraq, pulling the plug on Israel might help: until 1991 that was the main reason every Muslim in the middle east hated your guts.

well, while we're all demonizing me, why don't I just state that I think we should nuke the syria and end our terrorist problems. Sure as hell would stop the inssurgency in Iraq.

I definatly agree with the "kill em and let god sort em out" policy. Why do you think I want to genetic engineering work for the military?

Supersoldiers here we come.

I can't tell if your words are really yours or the words of Jesus. They're so much alike. They are the very definition of Christian. If you happen to have never read any of Christ's teachings.

O'Reilly is a great source. Better than hacks like Moore and the CNN crew.

Moore is a hack too. O'Reilly a hack for the other side. You could try sources that at least try to present real information and not information skewed to fit their side.

But that would be soooo hard *whines*

I can't tell if your words are really yours or the words of Jesus. They're so much alike. They are the very definition of Christian. If you happen to have never read any of Christ's teachings.
Ha. Ha. Verrrry funny. :rolleyes:

O'Reilly is a great source. Better than hacks like Moore and the CNN crew.
Sunshine, Erich Von Daniken and Richard Shaver checked their sources more carefully than Moore ever has, but that doesn't mean they weren't talking bullshit.

I'm really this kid is subject of wishful thinking when he says 1-5%. I really hope it's much, much less.

well, my whole family is almost as right wing as me.Wouldn't you be just a bit bigoted as well if you were threatened by black kids in elementary school who made threats like "we're gonna lynch you cracker" and "Maybe you want to meet the end of my gat?"

Raceism goes both ways.

I forgave mostly...but I will never forget.

well, my whole family is almost as right wing as me.Wouldn't you be just a bit bigoted as well if you were threatened by black kids in elementary school who made threats like "we're gonna lynch you cracker" and "Maybe you want to meet the end of my gat?"

Raceism goes both ways.

I forgave mostly...but I will never forget.

Yep. If one wrongs me I must punish them all. There are no individuals. If you look like someone I don't like you're getting kicked in the parts. :rolleyes:

Good, clean, rational thinking that is. Stopping the cycle of racism is easy. Just don't do it. If I don't do it and you don't do and at the same time we speak out against it and refuse to tolerate it (by punishing individuals not races) then it will be forced to hide in the cracks and dark corners of society where it belongs. As it is now, you're a part of the problem. It's a shame that you would use the name Christian when you reject the most basic teachings of Jesus Christ.

Jewish? Are you absurd!? I have broken every law about kosher stuff that they have (I think...don't know a whole lot about judeism). Besides...my family is half southern baptist, half southern methodist and we're originally descended from a count von questenburg of germany (family castle is about 200km south of berlin)
Allow me to explain something to you. Breaking Kosher does not invalidate your beliefs, nor does necessarily coming from a non-Jewish family. What ultimately leads one to hold your status as Judaistic is your attitude to God.

There's no shame in that. Most Jews have developed an understanding of their faith that would put many Buddhists to shame. And Paul was a Jew; he never stopped being a Jew. And though it seems stupid to single him out, he turned out to be a pretty wise guy. Paul's God was always the one who would bring about the kingdom that the people of Israel hoped for. Paul's God was the one who left Divine Instruction to his people through a pair of prophets. Paul's God was the one who permitted Israel to fight other nations and claim their territory for their own in his name.

He just happened to think that Jesus was a verification of that. Similarly, you focus on Jesus as a validation of the Old Testament. The God as the OT exists, because Jesus is alive!

Doing so completely misses the gulf between Jesus and Judaism. Jesus was a challenge by God to the Jewish people; his ideas were not just radical but out and out blasphemous to those of his time. Eye for an eye; bam. Gone. Revenge is for those who take pleasure in the suffering of others. Supremecy of the masculine; kerpow. Gone. Women took a role in Jesus's life that surprised many of those around him. Temple sacrifice; splat. Gone. Repentance is much simpler than that.

Ineffability of God: No more. People can come directly to God, without the need for all of this crazy showboating.

Unquestionable authority of God's commands?

Right out the freekin' window.

Jesus represented, in his Son of God statements, an embodiment of a completely different kind of God than anything the temples could possibly be expecting in a messiah figure. Here was a man - a human being - claiming to be both inspired by and actually of direct personal link to this figure they had held as otherworldly for the better part of several centuries. In order to conceivably grasp the possibility of Jesus as God's Son, they were required to question the ideas given to them by God long, long ago. Or, at least, question the ideas given to their forefathers that claimed they came from God long, long ago. And to them, this was impossible. Direct Divine Mandate is inflexible while the God of our Fathers still exists.

You can't hold anything against them. Going by what they believed, the temples were right to reject Jesus. His idea of God and their ideas of God conflicted in a most dramatic manner.

But wait! There's more to the story. Following the Death and/or Resurrection of Jesus, along comes Paul. And through Paul, the world comes to see how Jesus was exactly what the Jewish people were waiting for. Irrefutable proof of a direct message from God proclaiming his kingdom now exists, and all that is left to do is to spread it.

You see? The message has somehow managed to revert back to exactly what it was beforehand. Waiting for the Kingdom of God. That is the core belief of both Judaism And Conservative Christian thinking. But it's not a core belief of Jesuit thinking. Christianity is, and always has been, about personal relationship with God.

As long as the focus is on the Old Testament Kingdom-building mindset, as it was with Paul, you will be more Jewish than you will be Christian.

O'Reilly is a great source. Better than hacks like Moore and the CNN crew.

Hell, if most of you here had your way, from what I can tell.
1.9/11 would have caused the fall of the U.S, because we shouldn't strike back.
2.Mexico would assimilate the broken U.S.
3.Mexican states of america would be formed...since there are enough mexicans here to fill New York city.
4. Right wing evangelists would be put in insane asylums...far from our nuclear silos.

Meh. I'm done here. This has to be a joke.

Also a point of order. Pleas don't hijack. We arent discussing which religon is more vilonet here
I was answering someone else question with the Quran excerpts, and merely giving christianity equal time; I wasn't hijacking the thread, I was providing info relevant to the post that I was responding to.

<snip>Or for the forced arrest of 10-11 Christians in Saudi Arabia for worshiping in private
That would be because they were breaking the law, the state religion in Saudi Arabia is Islam; anyone who doesn't like it can leave there.

People have both light and darkness within themselves. They ultimately choose to either let the light shine through, or be taken by the darkness. Unfortunately, people seem to like the darkness a whole lot more nowadays. That's why we have so many psychos going around, claiming they are serving their Gods wishes by murdering tens of hundreds of people who dont follow their beliefs. 1,000 years, and this is as far as humanity has come?

We still fight to make others see our way of thinking, to hold power, to hold land. We fight because we see the need to fight. We can have all the technology we want, all we are doing is destroying our planet. If we get the technology we are currently researching, then I hope for all mankind that we utilize it in the space program first. We need to get off this planet because someday, WW3 is going to start, and this planet is going to die. Antimatter. Little particles with enough explosive force to equate 4,000 lbs of dynamite. And these technologies are going to be in the hands of those who are shrouded by darkness, by human hate. We humans need strict supervision, we cannot live on our own.

Perhaps, that's why God hasnt interfered with us all this time. If he does exist, then maybe he fears what we can do. Maybe this God fears his supposed creation. If he fears us, then why has he not tried to oppress us? Why has he not done so many things he could have done to make sure we wouldnt kill each other, fight one another? Is it because he knows we have ultimate control over him, because we believe in him, and if we stop, he ceases to exist? Interesting things to think about.

But I sincerly doubt that the Amercian fundimental groups of Christans are the reason that the Saudi Arabian governemnt and many others in the Muslim world and elsewhere persecute Christianity.

Well, since homo's like me are given a hard time, thanks to Christians, I'll spin it this way:

"You chose the Christian lifestyle; whether an astranged relationship with your father, over mothering by the mother; what can be said, that you can change; change is possible; you can give up that perverted lifestyle in favour of becoming Muslim/Hindu/Buddhism/Sheik"

Yes, so why don't all these Christians change?

That would be because they were breaking the law, the state religion in Saudi Arabia is Islam; anyone who doesn't like it can leave there.

Its breaking principals of human rights, and its breaking the law since according to the Saudi's law Chrisitans can worship in private. In practise they cant.

" Why is Christianity bashed so much all over the world?"

I don't know, do you see any threads named "Why does everyone hate Jews?" or "Why does everyone mischaracterize Muslims?"

I rest my case.

" Why is Christianity bashed so much all over the world?"

I don't know, do you see any threads named "Why does everyone hate Jews?" or "Why does everyone mischaracterize Muslims?"

I rest my case.
Bashing a religion and hating or mischaracterising the followers of that religion are two different things : plenty of people think that Christianity is just plain wrong, but don't despise Christians as such (many of whom are good people).

Where Christians do come in for attack, rather than Jews or Muslims, it is because they are the most prominent and visible religion around their critics, and quite a few of them evangelize (trying to shove their beliefs down other people's throats), which Jews, for example, tend not to do. Telling people that they should believe what you believe pisses them off.

No christian in America has the right to complain or bitch about being oppressed religiously, or otherwise.
No one is interfering with your right to worship.
In fact, Christians are a MAJORITY in this country.

You aint getting held down by the man...you ARE the man.

Yet, so many christians staple themselves to thier own crosses, and attempt to portray the martyr, when anyone calls their religion and its dogma out. When bills are being passed to prevent Christians from attending church, then you can scream oppression.

Most importantly, and I want to make this perfectly clear...

You dont have the right to not be bashed.
If you (christians in general) wish to espouse contact in any form with the ultimate creator of the universe, you have all the rights to do so.
If I want to tell you how utterly ridiculous I think that is, I will do so.
As long as we can think each other are sinners/idiots, and not hurt each other.....its all good.

You have the right to worship whomever you wish, freely.
You have the right to speak of your faith to anyone who will listen.
You do not have the right to not get offended, when someone criticizes those beliefs.

In closing,
Jesus was black, Ronald Reagan was the devil, and the government is lying about 9/11. Thank you for your time,....have a good evening.

Free Huey!

*Snippage*

*Applause*


Free Huey!

And Dewey and Louie, too! :D

Christians were the first to persecute the Muslims so many hundreds of years ago, so there. They brought on the Crusades and pretty much ruined their civilization, turning it into a hotbed for fundamentalism.

i thought the jihads pre-dated the crusades?

i thought the jihads pre-dated the crusades?

That, and they didn't "ruin Muslim civilisation". Not even the reconquista in Spain managed that on that scale, it only destroyed Muslim culture in Spain itself.
As a matter of fact, Muslim civilisation continued to flourish for centuries after the crusades, without turning into a "hotbed for fundamentalism" ...

*Applause*

*bows*



And Dewey and Louie, too! :D

Right on brotha man.

My beliefs on abortion come from an ethical standpoint not a religious one. But think about it for a second from my stand point. Suppose you do believe (as I do) that Abortion is murder. Can you see why I would want it enacted in law. But lets not turn this into an abortion thread

So you feel your morals are higher than society and therefore your opinion should be forced on everyone?

That sounds like you are persecuting the people who prefer to think for themselves.

So you feel your morals are higher than society and therefore your opinion should be forced on everyone?

That sounds like you are persecuting the people who prefer to think for themselves.

Look at it in this way. By legislating against murder you are persecuting people who think for themselves

By legislating against anything you consider one person right and one person wrong.

No christian in America has the right to complain or bitch about being oppressed religiously, or otherwise.
No one is interfering with your right to worship.
In fact, Christians are a MAJORITY in this country.

You aint getting held down by the man...you ARE the man.

Firstsly, in America that may be true, but we are talking about the entire world. In many parts of the world, Christians are legislated against.


Yet, so many christians staple themselves to thier own crosses, and attempt to portray the martyr, when anyone calls their religion and its dogma out. When bills are being passed to prevent Christians from attending church, then you can scream oppression.


That IS what is happening. In many parts of the world Christians are legislated against worshiping in public or private. We are not talking about America we are talking about the world. Read the opening post artilce from the spectator, it shows how Christianity is persecuted against over the world in exactly the fashion you describe. We arnt talking about intelectual discussion and ridcule, we are talking about physical oppostion.


You have the right to worship whomever you wish, freely.
You have the right to speak of your faith to anyone who will listen.
You do not have the right to not get offended, when someone criticizes those beliefs.


We arnt talking about America. We are talking about the world
We arnt talking about intelectual discusion or riducle. We are talking about physical persecution. Pay attention to the topic of the thread

In conclusion. Chrisitianity is the single most persecuted against religous group in the world.

In conclusion. Chrisitianity is the single most persecuted against religous group in the world.

Hmm... could that be because it is the single largest group as well?

More followers = more people who can potentially be prosecuted

Firstsly, in America that may be true, but we are talking about the entire world. In many parts of the world, Christians are legislated against.

Christians, or all religions besides the state religion?

That IS what is happening. In many parts of the world Christians are legislated against worshiping in public or private. We are not talking about America we are talking about the world. Read the opening post artilce from the spectator, it shows how Christianity is persecuted against over the world in exactly the fashion you describe. We arnt talking about intelectual discussion and ridcule, we are talking about physical oppostion.

Christians, or all religions besides the state religion?

We arnt talking about America. We are talking about the world
We arnt talking about intelectual discusion or riducle. We are talking about physical persecution. Pay attention to the topic of the thread

In conclusion. Chrisitianity is the single most persecuted against religous group in the world.

I'd say Wicca is. It's persecuted everywhere Christianity is and it's persecuted wherever Christianity has the power to persecute them. They are made fun of and painted as evil. They've been hung throughout the world as demons and devils. I'd like for you to show me anywhere in the world where Wicca has more rights than Christianity.

I'd say Wicca is. It's persecuted everywhere Christianity is and it's persecuted wherever Christianity has the power to persecute them. They are made fun of and painted as evil. They've been hung throughout the world as demons and devils. I'd like for you to show me anywhere in the world where Wicca has more rights than Christianity.

i thought wiccans only existed in the US and a few places in western europe:confused: ?

If your refering to all pagan religions, yeah they have a hard time in some places. Most pagan/animalist religions do in monothistic countries.

1 United States 189,983,000
2 Brazil 170,405,000
3 Mexico 96,614,000
4 China 86,801,000
5 Philipines 72,225,000
6 Germany 60,712,000
7 Nigeria 54,012,000
8 Italy 47,704,000
9 France 45,505,000
10 Congo, Democratic Republic of 42,283,000