NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: Suffering Africa, birthplace of humanity, where women are at the very bottom of the "pecking order," may finally have turned a corner with the election of Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf as President of Liberia. One can only hope.


Waiting for Their Moment
in the Worst Place on Earth to Be a Woman (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/16/opinion/16wed4.html?th&emc=th)


By HELENE COOPER
Published: November 16, 2005
You can't get to Bukavu, Congo, from Monrovia, Liberia. Like just about everywhere else in Africa, the two places are separated by dense rain forests, interminable wars and impassable dirt roads that don't go anywhere.

Yet they might as well be the same place. "Oh, finally, now I'm home," I thought as I crawled out of the tiny single-engine plane and jumped onto the landing strip of what passes for Bukavu's airport. It was about six months ago, and I was on a reporting trip throughout Africa. It was a weird trip for me because I was there to write about poverty and development, yet everywhere I went, from Accra, Ghana, to Mekele, Ethiopia and Kisumu, Kenya, I kept thinking that none of those places, for all of their endemic poverty or corruption, seemed as bad off as my own home country, Liberia.

Until, that is, I got to Bukavu. After the semidesert of Ethiopia and the savannahs of Kenya, Bukavu was otherworldly lush, with that tropical just-rained smell that often greets me when I go home to Liberia. Leafy, green mountains and valleys surrounded the teeming city, with rich banana trees and tea plantations dotting the countryside: the same luxuriant, verdant landscape we have around Monrovia.

And the same inexplicable sense of abandonment that comes from having a population ravaged by years of pointless civil wars. Thousands upon thousands of young boys troll fetid, trash-strewn streets, with nowhere to go. Downtown buildings, long devoid of any commerce, are marked with holes from rockets, grenades and the various other projectiles common to all of the continent's numerous wars. A few private cars - mufflers dragging, crammed with 10, 15, even 20 people - travel the crater-filled streets, but mostly just the white United Nations S.U.V.'s.

What struck me most, though, in Bukavu were the women. As I drove into the city, I passed women I have known all of my life. There were old women - old in Africa means 35 or so - with huge bundles of bamboo sticks on their back. In most cases, the burdens were larger than the backs carrying them as they trudged up one hill after another. There were market women in their colorful dresses - in Liberia we would call them lapas - huddled together on the side of the road selling oranges, hard-boiled eggs and nuts.

There were young women and girls, sitting in front of village huts bathing their sons, daughters, brothers and sisters in rubber buckets. No electricity or running water was anywhere close, but one 10-year old girl had dragged a bucket of dirty creek water up the hill to her house so she could wash her 4-year-old sister.

These were the women I grew up with in Liberia, the women all across Africa - the worst place there is to be a woman - who somehow manage to carry that entire continent on their backs.

In Liberia, when their sons were kidnapped and drugged to fight for rebel factions, and when their husbands came home from brothels and infected them with H.I.V., and when government soldiers invaded their houses and raped them in front of their teenage sons, these were the women who picked themselves up and kept going. They kept selling fish, cassava and kola nuts so they could feed their families. They gave birth to the children of their rapists in the forests and carried the children on their backs as they balanced jugs of water on their heads.

These are the women who went to the polls in Liberia last week. They ignored the threats of the young men who vowed more war if their chosen presidential candidate, a former soccer player named George Weah, didn't win. "No Weah, no peace," the boys yelled, chanting in the streets and around the polling stations.

The women in Liberia, by and large, ignored those boys and made Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf, a 67-year-old grandmother, the first woman elected to lead an African country. I wasn't surprised that Mr. Weah immediately said the vote had been rigged, although international observers said it had not been. In the half-century since the Europeans left Africa, its men have proved remarkably adept at self-delusion.

No one can be sure what kind of president Mrs. Johnson-Sirleaf, a Harvard-educated banker who was imprisoned by one of the many men who ran Liberia into the ground over the last few decades, will be. There are plenty of African women who have brought us shame, from Winnie Madikizela-Mandela in South Africa to Janet Museveni in Uganda. But after 25 years of war, genocide and anarchy, it's a good bet that she will smoke the men who preceded her in running the country. It's not going to be that hard to do; Mrs. Johnson-Sirleaf is following Charles Taylor and Samuel Doe, both butchers of the first degree.

Ever since the voting results started coming in a few days ago, showing what the Liberian women had done, I've been unable to get one image from Bukavu out of my mind. It is of an old woman, in her 30's. It was almost twilight when I saw her, walking up the hill out of the city as I drove in. She carried so many logs that her chest almost seemed to touch the ground, so stooped was her back. Still, she trudged on, up the hill toward her home. Her husband was walking just in front of her. He carried nothing. Nothing in his hand, nothing on his shoulder, nothing on his back. He kept looking back at her, telling her to hurry up.

I want to go back to Bukavu to find that woman, and to tell her what just happened in Liberia. I want to tell her this: Your time will come, too.

did you make up that thread title yourself?

Africa's suffering will end when western governments start giving a shit.

Interesting fact: Rwanda has the highest proportion of women members of parliament in the world - almost half of its MPs are women. So Africa isn't always behind the rest of the world.

Africa's suffering will end when western governments start giving a shit.

Don't hold your breath.

Actually, Liberia is probably the wests greatest achievement in Africa. The war was ended by the US, and now democracy and stabillity have been restored by peacekeeping troops.

Interesting fact: Rwanda has the highest proportion of women members of parliament in the world - almost half of its MPs are women. So Africa isn't always behind the rest of the world.

Interesting. I didn't know that about Rwanda. Thank you.

Africa's suffering will end when western governments start giving a shit.

No, the suffering will end when third parties outside of Africa stop funding these little wars (a habit that has existed ever since the colonial powers left).

Decades of placing millions of young men under arms in internecine warfare has acculturated some of these nations to the idea of continuous warfare.

If we stop encouraging this sort of thing, and give it some time, it will settle down.

Interesting. I didn't know that about Rwanda. Thank you.

They also had that whole genocide thang a few years past.

did you make up that thread title yourself?
Yes. Why?

Africa's suffering will end when western governments start giving a shit.
How about if we end the war in Iraq and just send all the personnel and equipment to Africa and clean it up State by State? That should only take, oh ... about 50 years. :rolleyes:

Interesting fact: Rwanda has the highest proportion of women members of parliament in the world - almost half of its MPs are women. So Africa isn't always behind the rest of the world.
Yes, I'm sure there are a few bright spots in the darkness.

Africa's suffering will end when western governments start giving a shit.
Don't discount the power of Africans themselve to affect change. They are not children. The Western governments gave a shit when they first divided up Africa and raped that continent. You really want them to take a serious interest in it again?

Interesting. I didn't know that about Rwanda. Thank you.
Rwanda is the only country in the world to have at 50/50 split in the government...(Wales holds the other such goverment, but they aren't properly a nation state, are they?). Rwanda did this by legislating the split...it was artificially created, but hey, it worked!

Don't hold your breath.

Actually, Liberia is probably the wests greatest achievement in Africa. The war was ended by the US, and now democracy and stabillity have been restored by peacekeeping troops.
Hmmm...Liberia was created by the west as a sort of 'homeland' for freed slaves...and then devolved into civil conflicts pretty much throughout it's entire history. I'm not sure that the recent improvements negate that and make it 'the west's greatest achievement'.

Don't discount the power of Africans themselve to affect change. They are not children. The Western governments gave a shit when they first divided up Africa and raped that continent. You really want them to take a serious interest in it again?

I should hope that the western governments would have the mental fortitude to do what is morally correct.

Interesting fact: Rwanda has the highest proportion of women members of parliament in the world - almost half of its MPs are women. So Africa isn't always behind the rest of the world.
Indeed. If anything, African nations have favourable proportions of female members of parliament in comparison to the rest of the world. However, there are obvious deficiencies in other respects.

Actually, Liberia is probably the wests greatest achievement in Africa. The war was ended by the US, and now democracy and stabillity have been restored by peacekeeping troops.
Yes. What would Liberia have done without the West? Don't even bother answering.

How about if we end the war in Iraq and just send all the personnel and equipment to Africa and clean it up State by State? That should only take, oh ... about 50 years.
Well, if you're going to entirely distort what the poor fella wrote, why bother soliciting opinions in the first place?

I should hope that the western governments would have the mental fortitude to do what is morally correct.
Which is.....

That is a very sweeping, and impressive statement, but I'm assuming you have something in mind other than a vague idea of moral correctness?

The reason I'm hounding you is that people (not necessarily am I lumping you among them) like to talk about Africa as though there is a very simple solution the west is simply holding back from implementing.

Which is.....

That is a very sweeping, and impressive statement, but I'm assuming you have something in mind other than a vague idea of moral correctness?

The reason I'm hounding you is that people (not necessarily am I lumping you among them) like to talk about Africa as though there is a very simple solution the west is simply holding back from implementing.
A much better response to The South Islands' commentary. I feel we need to find a happy medium between offering assistance and acknowledging that Africans are not in fact helpless.

You are correct, there is no simple solution. But it is obvious that what is happening now is not working. Western governments need to be more involved in the solution because they have many of the resources that African governments lack.

Right now, the West is doing next to nothing. They are not working to end the violence in Somalia, for example. IF it were a european nation, NATO and the UN would be all over, trying to get the factions to the bargaining table.

The point is, the west (as in the Americas and Europe) need to start caring about Africa again. Start using their resources to help africans.

They also had that whole genocide thang a few years past.

Yes, I was aware of that, it so happens. I know, I know, I mustn't take you seriously...


Don't discount the power of Africans themselve to affect change. They are not children. The Western governments gave a shit when they first divided up Africa and raped that continent. You really want them to take a serious interest in it again?

Agreed. It's a dangerous slope to start thinking that Africans are incapable of sorting themselves out. They may need help reversing the damage done by colonialism, but they aren't kids.


Rwanda is the only country in the world to have at 50/50 split in the government...(Wales holds the other such goverment, but they aren't properly a nation state, are they?). Rwanda did this by legislating the split...it was artificially created, but hey, it worked!

Indeed! And I'm always interested to know things like that. Actually, Wales *is* a nation; it's just not a sovereign State. It's the difference between nations and states - i.e., the UK is a State made up of several nations, while the US is the reverse, and France is (officially) a nation-state (some minorities such as Bretons and Corsicans might dispute that).

A much better response to The South Islands' commentary. I feel we need to find a happy medium between offering assistance and acknowledging that Africans are not in fact helpless.
Yes, I don't want to come across as one of those who like to blame Africa for all of its woes...but I don't absolve Africans from all responsibility either. It's the greatest human tragedy, and has been for over a century. It behooves us ALL to give a shit.

Indeed! And I'm always interested to know things like that. Actually, Wales *is* a nation; it's just not a sovereign State. It's the difference between nations and states - i.e., the UK is a State made up of several nations, while the US is the reverse, and France is (officially) a nation-state (some minorities such as Bretons and Corsicans might dispute that).
Yeah, I am unclear on the Wales thing....I always assumed it was a sovereign nation, but when you look the stats on representation by gender, Wales is mentioned, but not as a country on its own. In any case, I don't think the distinction is all that important...Wales is still the only 'western' nation with a 50/50 split.

You are correct, there is no simple solution. But it is obvious that what is happening now is not working. Western governments need to be more involved in the solution because they have many of the resources that African governments lack.

Right now, the West is doing next to nothing. They are not working to end the violence in Somalia, for example. IF it were a european nation, NATO and the UN would be all over, trying to get the factions to the bargaining table.

The point is, the west (as in the Americas and Europe) need to start caring about Africa again. Start using their resources to help africans.
Alright! You've gotten a bit more specific. Good. Now I'm going to pick your brain some more. If you had the power to determine the way in which 'western' nations were to go about helping Africa, what would you have them focus on, and what resources should they use?

The problems in sub-Saharan Africa are extreme, and we should do what we can to remedy them.

That being said, many of the problems there are intractable. There's not much that we can do. Many of the governments there are so irredeemably corrupt that any aid we give them will simply be embezzled by the already-powerful elites, and will never reach the people who need it most. Forcibly replacing the corrupt governments isn't a viable option, because the replacement governments would likely also become equally corrupt in short order.

I'm afraid Africa faces a long, hard climb out of its current violence and chaos. We should help where we can - after all, many (though not all) of the problems are a legacy of Western colonization and exploitation, so we bear some of the responsibility. But there is no magic solution that will transform African nations into stable, prosperous democracies overnight.

Alright! You've gotten a bit more specific. Good. Now I'm going to pick your brain some more. If you had the power to determine the way in which 'western' nations were to go about helping Africa, what would you have them focus on, and what resources should they use?

1. FOOD!

Food, or the lack of it, has caused more deaths, directly and indirectly, than any other one thing in Africa. Even though the UN gives millions of tonnes of food aid to Africa (as a whole), they are not getting to the people that really need it.

Western governments produce a massive surplus of food, plus have a massive airlift capacity. Food+Airlift=Fewer starving children.

2. Education in Engeneering and Medicine.

Institutes of higher education must be maintaned and grown. Engeneering to build the nation up, and medicine to combat the spread of those nasty african germs.

3. Expertise

Western governments have Experts in things. Everything from General medicine to road construction. Give the africans knowlege. They will run with it.

The main point is, don't target the effects of everything bad in africa, target the causes.

Briefly, the confusion about Wales: it's a principality. Not a nation, not independent. Mildly autonomous, perhaps, but that's it. The UK is the nation and the state; England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland its component parts.

1. FOOD!

Food, or the lack of it, has caused more deaths, directly and indirectly, than any other one thing in Africa. Even though the UN gives millions of tonnes of food aid to Africa (as a whole), they are not getting to the people that really need it.

Western governments produce a massive surplus of food, plus have a massive airlift capacity. Food+Airlift=Fewer starving children. I swear I'm not doing this to be a bitch...just to point out some things to you. I do this, because one of the things that bothers me is people's unthinking support of NGOs, when sometimes, those very NGOs cause more trouble than they help.

Alright. Air lifting food. Even if the food were somehow able to make it to the people it was meant for, instead of being stolen by the military and hoarded, or sold at a huge profit, EVEN IF...you have a very serious side-effect. Massive dumps of food into an area wreaks havoc on local food production. Who the hell is going to pay for food when it's being given to you for free? This kind of thing has bankrupted small scale farmers before...and it will happen again if things aren't dealt with better. The same thing happens when we dump all our used clothes over there...local textile producers and weavers are run out of business. Suddenly, people who were once able to support themselves, and their families, are tossed into poverty.

There is a difference between people in refugee camps starving, and people starving in their home communities. Sometimes, countries have plenty of food, but they export it rather than maintaining a domestic supply. Other times, the lack of food is simply from lack of food...meaning, more and more farms in Africa are being converted into cash crops like tobacco. And farmers in Africa can't compete with the subsidies western farmers get...it's cheaper to import food than buy it from your neighbour. THAT must be addressed.

1) Protect essential food crops in Africa. Worry about crops for export once your people have a stable food source. That includes not buying foreign crops to replace your staple crops...luxuries only (crops not normally grown).

2) Cut the subsidies in the West, and allow African crops to compete on a more even level.



2. Education in Engeneering and Medicine.

Institutes of higher education must be maintaned and grown. Engeneering to build the nation up, and medicine to combat the spread of those nasty african germs.
Before you get to this very important step, universal primary and secondary education must be created. Right now, most African children can not afford to attend school for 12 or 13 years, either because of school fees, or because they are needed to help around the farm/factory/whatever. Yes, open universities now, but also pour massive effort into creating a stable education system, and a way to keep students there.

3. Expertise

Western governments have Experts in things. Everything from General medicine to road construction. Give the africans knowlege. They will run with it. Whoa whoa whoa, hold the train! The only problem with this is that Westerners are complete dummies when it comes to 'giving the Africans knowledge'. They give them complicated well pumps, maybe even train a local to maintain it, but then when the pump breaks down, the parts are too damn expensive and buddy the well-pump guy was shot in the face by a child soldier, so now the village is screwed.

Whatever 'knowledge' is 'given' to the Africans has to be appropriate, useful, and sustainable. Meaning the resources that Africans have need to be taken into account...is it better to spend the money buying expensive diagnostic equipment for hospitals with no electricity, or is it better to beef up their primary health care, and train nurses like crazy to treat patients with whatever they can find...including traditional medicines? I agree we can help, but so far, the help has been pretty moronic. It is changing, as we slowly realise we aren't necessarily 'smarter' or more capable than Africans.

The main point is, don't target the effects of everything bad in africa, target the causes.
Yes. We need to treat some of the more serious symptoms immediately (I'm very surprised you did not mention AIDS), but for lasting change, the root causes must also be addressed. A two-pronged approach. Corrupt governments, propped up by the money from blood diamonds, etc. It's a great tragedy that Africa, one of the richest continents in the world in terms of mineral resources, is the poorest in human terms. Greed. It'd be better off if Africa had nothing to covet:(

Briefly, the confusion about Wales: it's a principality. Not a nation, not independent. Mildly autonomous, perhaps, but that's it. The UK is the nation and the state; England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland its component parts.
Thank you:)

Africa's suffering will end when western governments start giving a shit.
Africa's suffering will end when western government stop giving them shit.

Massive SNIP

See, this is why I don't like offering my opinions on things! Because I'm too stupid to defend them!

Never mind. I'll let the smarter people debate over what happens to africa.

Africa's suffering will end when western government stop giving them shit.
ROFL!

That is the most succinct way to put it:)

Briefly, the confusion about Wales: it's a principality. Not a nation, not independent. Mildly autonomous, perhaps, but that's it. The UK is the nation and the state; England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland its component parts.

Actually, no. It *is* a nation. Nationhood does not imply sovereignty nor statehood. You're getting confused between nations and states; they're not the same thing. The United Kingdom is a sovereign state made up of four seperate nations, and is more or less unique in that regard. By contrast, as I indicated, the US is a nation made up of several states. And France is a nation-state.

In any case, Wales isn't sovereign; only the UK is sovereign.


Western governments produce a massive surplus of food, plus have a massive airlift capacity. Food+Airlift=Fewer starving children.


Well, Sinuhue makes a good point to refute that, but it's a complex issue. And it's a disgrace that the West continues to destroy massive amounts of food surplus (profit-driven capitalism at its nicest) while people suffer from hunger and sometimes starvation in poor countries.

This is a complex issue. And it's a disgrace that the West continues to destroy massive amounts of food surplus (profit-driven capitalism at its nicest) while people suffer from hunger and sometimes starvation in poor countries.

At least in the short term.

The only way for Africa to develop if it is capable of doing so is to either leave it alone entirely, or recolonize it completely. Africa will either develop institutions on its own capable of advancing their interests, or the West can do it for them.

This half-assed concept of sending them money and supplies and counting on the leaders to do the right thing when the reason they got into power was through deceit and death is only going to keep Africa down.

Who actually cares about Africa? No, hands up y'all, woho really gives a toss?

What has Africa given civilisation after the ancient Egyptinas, who are more mediterranean than Africa? Nothing.

Artistically? Nowt

Literature? nowt

Music? Nowt

Western, oriental and Amerian civilisation, no sorry my mistake, the remainder of the world, contrived to develop, after several millenia, into a modern state, yet Booga booga land has failed to do so... Hmm, and they deserve anything other than colonialism why?

Well, Sinuhue makes a good point to refute that, but it's a complex issue. And it's a disgrace that the West continues to destroy massive amounts of food surplus (profit-driven capitalism at its nicest) while people suffer from hunger and sometimes starvation in poor countries.
It's interesting to note that the largest 'gifts' of food come at times when the market is glutted in that particular food item. For example, when a nation dumps all of it's onions on the market, and the price bottoms out, we go and dump them in Africa...the already rock-bottom prices, coupled with the market glut means that local onion producers sell their crops and move to cities. Most of our 'charity' in terms of food, is absolutely self-serving. We suck.

I care about africa because there are Human Beings living in conditions that would make a racoon puke.

Music? Nowt



Paul Simon stole a whole album from a group of south african musicians,

Who actually cares about Africa? No, hands up y'all, woho really gives a toss?

What has Africa given civilisation after the ancient Egyptinas, who are more mediterranean than Africa? Nothing.

Artistically? Nowt

Literature? nowt

Music? Nowt

Western, oriental and Amerian civilisation, no sorry my mistake, the remainder of the world, contrived to develop, after several millenia, into a modern state, yet Booga booga land has failed to do so... Hmm, and they deserve anything other than colonialism why?

*SMACKS YOU WITH A FROZEN TROUT*

Africa has so much to offer the world. My god man/woman (not sure of your gender), the influence of African music has reached every corner of this globe. We would have no salsa, no cumbias, no rock and roll, no blues, no zydeco.....African music is some of the most complex, in terms of rythyms and harmonies, and is mind-numbingly beautiful in it's scope. Western markets eat up African crafts, not because they want to help, but because we LOVE it. Writers...the continent has produced noble prize winning literature, like all the continents. It's a shame you haven't been exposed to it, but that does not signify a paucity of literary genius on their part. Booga booga? I do hope you're kidding....

Paul Simon stole a whole album from a group of south african musicians,
Not stole. Worked with, quite happily. Ladysmith Black Mambazo, but your point stands.

<SNIP>

Congratulations, I hereby nominate you for the award "Most Idiotic Post Ever".

Now, where to begin...

Oh, yes. We're human beings. There's those little things called compassion, solidarity, caring, ethics and humanity. Notions you may not be familiar with.

Second, if you believe Africa is a cultural wasteland, that is indicative only of your gross ignorance, not of the state of African cultures. Have you ever actually sought to take an interest in them? Not that a continent's level of artistic achievements should have anything to do with our response to their plight as human beings.

Any African artist, writer or musician today is a thousand times more worthy a human being than you are. As is any African, irrespective of artistic ability, who does not embrace your particularly distasteful lack of reasoning and humanity.

Not stole. Worked with, quite happily. Ladysmith Black Mambazo, but your point stands.

Maybe it was only a story in the UK; but in the aftermath Ladysmith Black Mambazo was quite unhappy with the distribution of royalties and plaudits. Also there were accusations of plagarism from the Bhundu Boys.

Maybe it was only a story in the UK; but in the aftermath Ladysmith Black Mambazo was quite unhappy with the distribution of royalties and plaudits. Also there were accusations of plagarism from the Bhundu Boys.
Ah...actually that is ringing a bell now. Hmmm, could quite well be. Wasn't one of their group members murdered around the time they were working on that album (touring or something)? There was a lot of anger about them working with a Western artist.

Congratulations, I hereby nominate you for the award "Most Idiotic Post Ever".

Now, where to begin...

Oh, yes. We're human beings. There's those little things called compassion, solidarity, caring, ethics and humanity. Notions you may not be familiar with.

Second, if you believe Africa is a cultural wasteland, that is indicative only of your gross ignorance, not of the state of African cultures. Have you ever actually sought to take an interest in them? Not that a continent's level of artistic achievements should have anything to do with our response to their plight as human beings.

Any African artist, writer or musician today is a thousand times more worthy a human being than you are. As is any African, irrespective of artistic ability, who does not embrace your particularly distasteful lack of reasoning and humanity.

Would they do the same for us? I somehow contrive to doubt that sincerely.

Furthermore, principal African author of any renown, Chinua Achebe, an introspective, pro-black author devoted to fraudulent propaganda.

Incidentally, if all human beings are equal, why on earth are African artists (one uses the term with chagrin) 1000 times better than myself? Do tell, I implore you...

Ah...actually that is ringing a bell now. Hmmm, could quite well be. Wasn't one of their group members murdered around the time they were working on that album (touring or something)? There was a lot of anger about them working with a Western artist.

I don't really recall any exact details. I do know that there were considerable polemics about it though.

Fun Trivia fact: Lacadaemon's mummy taught the Angolan minister of energy in the eighties to speak english.

Africa's suffering will end when western governments start giving a shit.

It's not the West's faults. Africa has had some of the most corrupt in history. Notable examples include Mobutu Sese Seko, Sani Abacha, Jose Eduardo Dos Santos, Jean-Bedel Bokassa, Francisco Macias Nguema, Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo, Emperor Haile Selassie (who fed his dogs food from silver plates while a famine wiped out thousands), Robert Mugabe, Sam Nujoma, Laurent Kabila, Mohammed Siad Barre, and other paragons of virtue. Africa can make progress, with good leadership, as the late, great Sir Seretse Khama demonstrated. Unfortunately, most Africans are cursed by the misfortune of having rampantly corrupt leaders.

Would they do the same for us? I somehow contrive to doubt that sincerely.

Furthermore, principal African author of any renown, Chinua Achebe, an introspective, pro-black author devoted to fraudulent propaganda.

Incidentally, if all human beings are equal, why on earth are African artists (one uses the term with chagrin) 1000 times better than myself? Do tell, I implore you...
No. Both of you stop right here. There is no conceivable way either of you are going to prove cultural superiority, and if you want to debate the merits of Chinua Achebe's novels, start another thread. The fact remains that you, Chris, think that Africa has nothing to offer the rest of the world, and we disagree. Being opinions, there is not way to really prove any of us right or wrong, and this is just going to turn ugly. So, redirect your attentions to the topic, and let's not go down that path.

I don't know why I bother, but...

Would they do the same for us? I somehow contrive to doubt that sincerely.


Who would "they" be? Are you incapable of thinking in any way except generalisations? Or are you sincerely suggesting that every person in Africa would be insensitive to the plight of people less well off than them, were the situation reversed?


Furthermore, principal African author of any renown, Chinua Achebe, an introspective, pro-black author devoted to fraudulent propaganda.


Principal to you, perhaps. Again, that's only indicative of your ignorance, not of African literature.


Incidentally, if all human beings are equal, why on earth are African artists (one uses the term with chagrin) 1000 times better than myself? Do tell, I implore you...

I never said all human beings were equal. On an individual level, some deserve respect and some deserve contempt. Any decent person in Africa is a better human being than you. That doesn't alter the fact that, if you were one of many people suffering from acute hunger, the humane thing to do would be to feed you as well.

I might also point out (in case there's any use) that you seem to have a very ethnocentric conception of art.

It's not the West's faults. Africa has had some of the most corrupt in history. Notable examples include Mobutu Sese Seko, Sani Abacha, Jose Eduardo Dos Santos, Jean-Bedel Bokassa, Francisco Macias Nguema, Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo, Emperor Haile Selassie (who fed his dogs food from silver plates while a famine wiped out thousands), Robert Mugabe, Sam Nujoma, Laurent Kabila, Mohammed Siad Barre, and other paragons of virtue. Africa can make progress, with good leadership, as the late, great Sir Seretse Khama demonstrated. Unfortunately, most Africans are cursed by the misfortune of having rampantly corrupt leaders.

Yeah but take another step backwards in time and you'd see how those dictators got into power. The european nations occupying Africa literally packed up and left without doing anything to unsure a stable balance of power in their wake. And in many cases such as in the Congo they sabotaged he democratic process, which directy resulted in people like Mobutu coming to power. The African dictators represent the last great failure of European Colonialism.

Who would "they" be? Are you incapable of thinking in any way except generalisations? Or are you sincerely suggesting that every person in Africa would be insensitive to the plight of people less well off than them, were the situation reversed?



Principal to you, perhaps. Again, that's only indicative of your ignorance, not of African literature.



I never said all human beings were equal. On an individual level, some deserve respect and some deserve contempt. Any decent person in Africa is a better human being than you. That doesn't alter the fact that, if you were one of many people suffering from acute hunger, the humane thing to do would be to feed you as well.

I might also point out (in case there's any use) that you seem to have a very ethnocentric conception of art.

Firstly, I digress onto the following; proffer me one artist, of African provenance, who is any manner equal to Da Vinci, Van Gogh, Raphael, Titian, Botticelli, Picasso, Rembrandt or other classical artists. Are any African artists comparable in the slightest?

Shakespeare, Volaire, Beaudelaire, Dickens and Defoe are comparable to whom?

In terms of human compassion, I will profess to, in terms of international charity, possessing none whatsoever, beyond my £35 for the Katrina relief fund. When precisely will I recieve thanks, recompense or even a mite of gratitude? In all likelihood, I will not, I will be a member of the upper echelons of a callous, inherently racist regime who is deplorable since he refuses to give all his earthly possessions to those who are utterly undeserving of them. Mugabe's regime portrays the true intentions of Africa, why are we compelled to aid such fellows, when we could colonise them and modernise and civilise them ourselves?

Firstly, I digress onto the following; proffer me one artist, of African provenance, who is any manner equal to Da Vinci, Van Gogh, Raphael, Titian, Botticelli, Picasso, Rembrandt or other classical artists. Are any African artists comparable in the slightest?

Shakespeare, Volaire, Beaudelaire, Dickens and Defoe are comparable to whom? What you want, is an African artist who has become so thoroughly Western as to mimic Western art and literature? Can you see how ridiculous that is? And how eurocentric you are to believe that Western art and literature is somehow superior? [/hijack]

What you want, is an African artist who has become so thoroughly Western as to mimic Western art and literature? Can you see how ridiculous that is? And how eurocentric you are to believe that Western art and literature is somehow superior? [/hijack]

It is, why refute it?

A "tribal" pattern or "Bacchus or Ariadne"?

"How the nasty whites modernised us" or "Les Miserables"?

Hi, I'm from Africa. Please stop assuming stuff about how we live.

No, surprisingly, we're not all backward and illeterate and ride to school on elephants (although that would be cool.)

I'm amazed at the shit people can talk about my continent without knowing fuck all about it.

It is, why refute it?

A "tribal" pattern or "Bacchus or Ariadne"?

"How the nasty whites modernised us" or "Les Miserables"? As the bigot you are, why bother with this thread? You aren't contributing in any way to the topic, but rather, pushing your own views on what contitutes 'good art and literature', purely subjective issues. Enough.

Hi, I'm from Africa. Please stop assuming stuff about how we live.

No, surprisingly, we're not all backward and illeterate and ride to school on elephants (although that would be cool.)

I'm amazed at the shit people can talk about my continent without knowing fuck all about it.
Wait...I'm confused...isn't Africa a country?:D

Would they do the same for us? I somehow contrive to doubt that sincerely.

Furthermore, principal African author of any renown, Chinua Achebe, an introspective, pro-black author devoted to fraudulent propaganda.

Incidentally, if all human beings are equal, why on earth are African artists (one uses the term with chagrin) 1000 times better than myself? Do tell, I implore you...

There is no "us". I claim no relation to you. And the reason why African artists, along with most other humans on this earth, are better people than philosophical egotists, is because most people are not priggish or haughty and know how to appreciate the qualities of their fellow human beings. We are all created equal, endowed with the potential to make or break our lives.

Chris, darling, your perception of cultural worth seems somewhat, um, blinkered.

Wales: I completely disagree, Ariddia, since Wales has never been a nation. But that's a debate for another time.

African dictators: I'm not going to go into details, but let's at least acknowledge the West's role in propping up the bastards who helped rape their nations. For example, Mobuto only survived because of US backing.

Wait...I'm confused...isn't Africa a country?:D

Lol ;) you would be surprised by how many people have asked me worse questions.

Best one: "Do you guys ride rhino's or lion's to school?"

Sadly, she was serious.

Lol ;) you would be surprised by how many people have asked me worse questions.

Best one: "Do you guys ride rhino's or lion's to school?"

Sadly, she was serious.
That's ok...people ask me if I still live in a teepee. People from my own country, AND my own province mind you.

There are no clowns in Africa. :(

I just realized that we don't know how old Blessed Chris is. I really can't blame him for his worldview if he's only 15 or something, as I wasn't all that enlightened at that age either.

If Africans were to replace their corrupt leaders with honest ones, and implement economic policies like the ones Ludwig Erhard implemented in West Germany after WWII, their countries would be on their feet and hopping in no time at all.

If Africans were to replace their corrupt leaders with honest ones, and implement economic policies like the ones Ludwig Erhard implemented in West Germany after WWII, their countries would be on their feet and hopping in no time at all.
Gosh, it all seems so simple when you put it like that. Silly Africans and their inability to override Western influence and regime-propping. Tut, tut.