NationStates Jolt Archive

This article is in German, so unless you want to use Babelfish you won't have a lot of fun with it.
If you really, really, really want me to, I might translate it, but not before I get at least 15 requests. And then you actually have to read it and comment on it. :D

http://www.zeit.de/online/2005/46/integration_komm

It basically talks about how integration has failed in Europe, and how neither the French colour-blind model (which does not allow for any cultural peculiarities) nor the all-sensible German/British/Dutch multiculturalism (which ultimately does not ask immigrants to conform with the European value-system) have actually worked.
In France they torch cars, in Holland they threaten both artists and politicians, in the UK they blow themselves up.

And this failure results in the people from the ghettos to also live in a "spiritual ghetto", namely fundamentalist Islam. And the belief that your own religion is superior, and the rest of the country follows immoral ways leads to further seperation and ultimately hatred.

By the way, it obviously doesn't make a difference which way the foreign policy of the host nation goes.

The article comes to the conclusion that it would be wrong to continue along the multicultural path, where parallel societies are simply tolerated.

What do you think?
It's commonly accepted that Europe's immigrants, and especially immigrants from Muslim countries will play a pretty big role in the future. So how should the integration be structured? Which policies would work, and which wouldn't?

Here's an interview with a "Muslim Philosopher and Intellectual":
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,384900,00.html
Islamic scholar and philosopher Tariq Ramadan discusses the riots in French suburbs, the integration of Muslims in Europe and the need for modernization of Islam.

It's commonly accepted that Europe's immigrants, and especially immigrants from Muslim countries will play a pretty big role in the future.

All I know is that it's gonna suck for everyone when the USA becomes an Islamic country on April 9th .... *footsteps* .... *clubbing sounds* .... *someone being dragged away*

bump

All I know is that it's gonna suck for everyone when the USA becomes an Islamic country on April 9th .... *footsteps* .... *clubbing sounds* .... *someone being dragged away*
Hey ive been thinking alot about the invasion and found a book on New Zealands Defence Policy respective Force sizes weapons equipment logistics etc and it really is sad viewing.:(

Hey ive been thinking alot about the invasion and found a book on New Zealands Defence Policy respective Force sizes weapons equipment logistics etc and it really is sad viewing.:(
Hey man. Love us or hate us, America has your back. ;)

Hey man. Love us or hate us, America has your back. ;)
And now, my dear Harlesburg, you should be scared.

~SNIP~
I find it a sad sign of the power of PC that even after all that has been happening in France and other nations in Europe, people still have the gall to call me a racist because, though I welcome ALL immigrants to legally enter this country, and pursue happiness any way they see fit, I ask the simple courtesy that they learn English.

And now, my dear Harlesburg, you should be scared.
Why,*Imperial March begins to play* because we are the Evil Empire?

...I ask the simple courtesy that they learn English.
Germany has taken to doing the same thing now, and I think it is a good idea. We have too many parallel communities there already.

Why,*Imperial March begins to play* because we are the Evil Empire?
I won't hijack my own thread...;)

Well, I can tell you this much. I don't know very much about European politics, but I know rising tension in a region when I see it, and I really hope the Governments nip this in the bud, and either appease the people who have been wronged, or kick the ass of the people who are rioting for no good reason.

Let me ask this question. Did all of the people who rioted have the opportunity to vote for local representatives?

Let me ask this question. Did all of the people who rioted have the opportunity to vote for local representatives?
If they were citizens (which they would be, being second and third gen immigrants), if they were of voting age (which some may not have been) and they are registered (that's really up to them), then I assume they should be able to.

... in the UK they blow themselves up.

...

By the way, it obviously doesn't make a difference which way the foreign policy of the host nation goes.
I call that an unfair generalisation. You're judging the entire muslim population of Britain on half a dozen extremists? Besides, going by the propaganda video they filmed before going ahead that we got to examine after the event, it really does seem entirely motivated by the government's actions abroad.

I call that an unfair generalisation. You're judging the entire muslim population of Britain on half a dozen extremists?
And you're probably right. I'm not judging the entire population...these boys were the odd ones out really, because they seemed to be well-integrated themselves.

Besides, going by the propaganda video they filmed before going ahead that we got to examine after the event, it really does seem entirely motivated by the government's actions abroad.
I take your point. But I would still argue that the Immigrant population in the UK is not as well integrated as it should be, and so I ask you what a good strategy to fix that could be.

If they were citizens (which they would be, being second and third gen immigrants), if they were of voting age (which some may not have been) and they are registered (that's really up to them), then I assume they should be able to.
In that case, while I may sympathies with their plight, I think they should all be arrested and charged. You can't start a riot, and torch a city because you don't want to fix your problems the right way.

In that case, while I may sympathies with their plight, I think they should all be arrested and charged. You can't start a riot, and torch a city because you don't want to fix your problems the right way.
Sarkozy thinks along similar lines, and his image has miraculously been restored somehow...
Read this (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,384823,00.html) if you want to learn more.

I take your point. But I would still argue that the Immigrant population in the UK is not as well integrated as it should be, and so I ask you what a good strategy to fix that could be.
No segment of the population in the UK is well integrated. That's ultimately why multiculturalism works here; beyond language, there isn't much of a sense of national identity outside of your own little community, and everyone feels a little bit isolated from the grand picture. Thus, the grand picture becomes simply the sum of the individual parts. Which works just fine.

All I know is that it's gonna suck for everyone when the USA becomes an Islamic country on April 9th .... *footsteps* .... *clubbing sounds* .... *someone being dragged away*


Good thing Jesus will be arriving on April 8th!

That's ultimately why multiculturalism works here; beyond language, there isn't much of a sense of national identity outside of your own little community, and everyone feels a little bit isolated from the grand picture.
Is that so? There are no problems with Immigrant communities, and traditional British communities getting along? There are no parallel communities that basically live their own laws, values and cultures apart from the mainstream? And there is no discrimination and no tension?

I find that hard to believe, in light of the whole "deport who doesn't fit in" laws the UK has recently passed (I'm thinking of that Sheik with the hook-hand).

Is that so? There are no problems with Immigrant communities, and traditional British communities getting along? There are no parallel communities that basically live their own laws, values and cultures apart from the mainstream? And there is no discrimination and no tension?

I find that hard to believe, in light of the whole "deport who doesn't fit in" laws the UK has recently passed (I'm thinking of that Sheik with the hook-hand).
I think you missed the first point, which was that there is no such thing as a traditional British community. You don't have self governing subcommunities because you don't have the same sense of exclusion from a bigger group; all the british identity is is a bunch of subcommunities with blurry edges. Any sense of discrimination and tension due to race or social standing is implicitly between minority groups. Which, while still an issue, is an easier one to address.

On the whole Abu Hamza thing though, the one criteria for staying here is that you appreciate that the freedom that has been granted to you is also granted to those around you. You'll get people who are actively destructive of the multicultural idea, which Hamza ultimately was and Nick Griffin was. The two are treated with the same severity, regardless of their racial or religious identities.

The article comes to the conclusion that it would be wrong to continue along the multicultural path, where parallel societies are simply tolerated.

The US model seems to be that part of your original culture is welcome, and will be bastardized into fast food and silly commercials. In the meantime, your kids will become "Americans" although they will still sort of remember your original culture.

We still have a problem with racism against black people, but nowhere near what it used to be - and you don't have to be foreign to be black.

I've spoken to a large number of immigrants over the years, and they all say that America is far more welcoming than the different European countries they've tried. They also feel that they have a chance to "become American" not just a citizen. My office mate tells me that if you go to France or Sweden (countries she has experience with), you'll never really be French and never really be a Swede. No matter how long you stay or how hard you try to assimilate. And she was white.

It's not something amenable to a government solution. People need to wake up to the possibilities - that it's good for us to have a little bit of every culture, not a monoculture. And not parallel separate multiple cultures, either.

The problem won't be solved in your lifetime.

Hey man. Love us or hate us, America has your back. ;)
Actually no you dont as of 1985 you dont want to train with us unless it is for an upcoming operation.

Something about Nuclear Powered ships.:(

Good thing Jesus will be arriving on April 8th!
Dude Hitler is on the 8th,Elvis on the 10th and Jesus on the 11th
Unless you are saying MOHO is going to beat JC.

Dude Hitler is on the 8th,Elvis on the 10th and Jesus on the 11th
Unless you are saying MOHO is going to beat JC.

Nonono, Jesus is on Easter Sunday...

Nonono, Jesus is on Easter Sunday...
Well he is still after MOHO we cant have him wining.

What really strikes me is that the riots were officially declared over, because only about 100 cars burned in the night from Wednesday to Thursday, this being "the national average of a normal night".

Wait is this about the French Problems?

Take it FWIW

http://csmonitor.com/2005/1117/p09s02-coop.html
From Oslo, where I live, there are more direct flights every week to Islamabad than to the US. A recent Norwegian report noted that among young Norwegians of Pakistani descent, family honor depends largely on "not being perceived as Norwegian - as integrated."

For many Muslims in Europe, self-segregation has come naturally. What's tragic is that European authorities have supported it. Rejecting the American approach - namely, encouraging immigrants to work and integrate - they've instead helped newcomers to maintain distinct communities and provided benefits that have made it easy for them to stay unemployed. Why did these authorities prefer segregation? Supposedly they were enlightened "multiculturalists" who respected differences; for many, the real reason was a profound discomfort with the idea of "them" becoming "us." Naively, they imagined they could preserve their nations' cultural homogeneity while letting in millions of foreigners and smiling on their preservation and perpetuation of values drastically different from their own.

What they've reaped, alas, is a generation of Muslims, many of whom view their neighborhoods as colonies amid enemy territory - and who demand this autonomy be recognized. In Britain, imams have pressed the government to designate part of Bradford as being under Muslim law. In Belgium, Muslims in the Brussels neighborhood of Sint-Jans-Molenbeek consider it to be under Islamic jurisdiction. In Denmark, Muslim leaders have sought similar control over parts of Copenhagen. In France, an official met with an imam at the edge of Roubaix's Muslim district out of respect for his declaration that it was Islamic territory. In many cities, police have stopped patrolling certain enclaves, the authorities having effectively ceded control to local religious leaders.

No surprise, then, that a Muslim rioter in Århus, Denmark, the other day cried out: "This area belongs to us!" Amir Taheri, editor of Politique Internationale, noted that the main reason for the French riots is not that two youths died hiding from cops in a transformer station; it's that the state responded to the initial unrest by sending police into an area that many locals saw as their own inviolate domain. These riots, in short, are early battles in a continent-wide turf war.

Is that so? There are no problems with Immigrant communities, and traditional British communities getting along? There are no parallel communities that basically live their own laws, values and cultures apart from the mainstream? And there is no discrimination and no tension?

I find that hard to believe, in light of the whole "deport who doesn't fit in" laws the UK has recently passed (I'm thinking of that Sheik with the hook-hand).
I doubt he has much of an idea about what it's like to live in a 'multicultural' community, he probably grew up in a white suburb. I used to live in a town where a high proportion of the population is muslim, mostly of Pakistani descent. It certainly wasn't some multicultural paradise where everybody got along fine. They ruined the town.

As for preventing Eurabia from ever occuring, it's simple - ban immigration from muslim countries. If immigration is really that essential for us, then there are plenty of people who'd be willing to move here who aren't muslim.

This article is in German, so unless you want to use Babelfish you won't have a lot of fun with it.
If you really, really, really want me to, I might translate it, but not before I get at least 15 requests. And then you actually have to read it and comment on it. :D

http://www.zeit.de/online/2005/46/integration_komm

It basically talks about how integration has failed in Europe, and how neither the French colour-blind model (which does not allow for any cultural peculiarities) nor the all-sensible German/British/Dutch multiculturalism (which ultimately does not ask immigrants to conform with the European value-system) have actually worked.
In France they torch cars, in Holland they threaten both artists and politicians, in the UK they blow themselves up.

And this failure results in the people from the ghettos to also live in a "spiritual ghetto", namely fundamentalist Islam. And the belief that your own religion is superior, and the rest of the country follows immoral ways leads to further seperation and ultimately hatred.

By the way, it obviously doesn't make a difference which way the foreign policy of the host nation goes.

The article comes to the conclusion that it would be wrong to continue along the multicultural path, where parallel societies are simply tolerated.

What do you think?
It's commonly accepted that Europe's immigrants, and especially immigrants from Muslim countries will play a pretty big role in the future. So how should the integration be structured? Which policies would work, and which wouldn't?

Here's an interview with a "Muslim Philosopher and Intellectual":
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,384900,00.html

Although our system has flaws, Australia is one of the best for intregration, and less problems of this nature than the US and Europe.
"Welcome to Australia, you may not have been born here, but you immigrated here and you are Australian now"

I've recently been studying pre-revolution Russia and its policy of 'Russification' (trying to make different ethnic groups conform to Russian culture). Admittedly the context is different (in Russia the groups were part of Russia because of invasion) but the consequences of Russification were resentment from the minority groups and a growing divide between them and the state (which they didn't feel represented them).

I think the British model is working, we should let people keep their culture and traditions as long as they don't conflict with UK law.

However I did find a good article on Al-Jazeera in Arabic. The English version of the page does not carry the same article. It's a reporter asking if the problems in France were the next intifada. But here is another link to the subject.

http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/561-Evidence-the-Paris-Riots-Are-Actually-the-French-Intifada.html

Germany has taken to doing the same thing now, and I think it is a good idea. We have too many parallel communities there already.
True. True. You know, they should've started that a lot earlier, though. Well, hindsight's always 20/20.

The three main points mentioned on the 2nd page, last paragraph are the biggest thing though:

- Learn the damn language
- Abide to the laws of the country you're living in
- Accept the values of that given country and its population
(- and yeah, arranged marriages are to go, too - but that is sort of covered in 2 and 3)

Thanks for bringing this topic up.

Another interesting point on all of this "integration". My hometown of 35.000+ people was literally overflooded with "Germans" from Russia/USSR back in the 80s and 90s, now we have more than 42.000 inhabitants. What really got to me the most was that they claim to be German but don't have a clue about the language, were unwilling to learn it, and behaved like a bunch dropped off by Ghengis Khan.
There are areas of my hometown now where people don't go anymore because "the others" have completely taken over. But if you dare say something, all the sudden you're a Nazi.

Integration is a nice, flawed concept and I've seen enough of it already.

Unless the "to be integrated" follow the rules (which have to be improved dramatically) I don't see a solution to this mess.

I've recently been studying pre-revolution Russia and its policy of 'Russification' (trying to make different ethnic groups conform to Russian culture. Admittedly the context is different (in Russia the groups were part of Russia because of invasion) but the consequences of Russification were resentment from the minority groups and a growing divide between them and the state (which they didn't feel represented them).


Nice analogon. I constantly have to fend off thoughts about Germanic federates being settled on west-roman territories.

Nice analogon. I constantly have to fend off thoughts about Germanic federates being settled on west-roman territories.

Why does history repeat itself with such monotonous regularity?:headbang:

As for preventing Eurabia from ever occuring, it's simple - ban immigration from muslim countries. If immigration is really that essential for us, then there are plenty of people who'd be willing to move here who aren't muslim.
I don't think racial (or probably religious) discrimination is going to help.