NationStates Jolt Archive

While searching one of my favorite military analysis sites for something else, I came accross something I missed last month:

http://www.strategypage.com/hotstuff/articles/dls20051121130.asp

Why Concrete Filled Bombs are So Damn Useful
by James Dunnigan
October 7, 2005

One of the strangest, and most useful, bombs employed in Iraq has been the concrete filled JDAM. Why deliver a 500 pound bomb filled with concrete instead of explosives? You do that if you want to do some damage, but not a lot. Concrete JDAMs were first used in the 1990s to destroy anti-aircraft guns, radars and missiles that Saddam Hussein placed in residential areas. He believed that the Americans would not attack these weapons, for fear of hurting nearby civilians. But it turned out that a laser, or satellite (JDAM) guided concrete smart bomb could take out the air-defense weapons without hurting nearby civilians. The concrete bombs come in various sizes (500, 1,000 and 2,000 pounds), but the new 500 pound JDAM has become a favorite when a concrete version is required. Recently, for example, two small bridges near the Syrian border were seen being used by terrorists to bring in people and weapons. There was no need to completely destroy the bridges (which might take months, or longer, to replace), because the terrorists were slowly being chased from the area. But a concrete bomb on each bridge damaged the structures enough so that they could not be used, but not so much that they could not be repaired in a week or two. Concrete bombs are still used against terrorist targets in residential areas, where the bomb can reach the terrorists before police or ground troops can. It�s all a case of a seemingly off-the-wall weapon idea being, not a joke, but actually quite useful.

How elegant a solution - and how old fashioned. Just drop a big rock on the target. :D Takes it out and reduces the possibility of unwanted damage (like local civilians). Beautiful!

that's a complicated ass way to throw a rock at someone.havent americans heard of trebuchets?or catapults?

planes to throw rocks.what next?

that's a complicated ass way to throw a rock at someone.havent americans heard of trebuchets?or catapults?

planes to throw rocks.what next?

You would need a pretty big trebuchet to throw a 2000 lb rock.

That, and it might not land exactly where you want it - like on an air defense radar.

I suggested a long time ago that we simply drop the stockpiles of surplus ordinance from pervious conflicts.
The munitions dont even need to detonate. We could likely bury most enemies with brass, lead and iron.

Ah yes...when all esle fails, hit it with a big rock. Worked for...well...millennia I suppose.

You would need a pretty big trebuchet to throw a 2000 lb rock.

That, and it might not land exactly where you want it - like on an air defense radar.


Then build a pretty big trebuchet.and they could probably be designed to be very accurate.and how much cheaper would it be to get a few soldiers to build a pre-fab trebuchet and stick a rock in it?im gonna say millions of dollars cheaper.

Hell they should of used stuff like that years ago! And look on the bright side.
The people that bombed can rebuiled with the concrete that got left over! Can you imagin being the poor sap that gets hit by one of these?

I suggested a long time ago that we simply drop the stockpiles of surplus ordinance from pervious conflicts.
The munitions dont even need to detonate. We could likely bury most enemies with brass, lead and iron.

Dont forget the fact that the US isnt producing anymore bombs anymore and we are being forced to import them from places like Poland and CHINA! WTF?!?!!?!

Then build a pretty big trebuchet.and they could probably be designed to be very accurate.and how much cheaper would it be to get a few soldiers to build a pre-fab trebuchet and stick a rock in it?im gonna say millions of dollars cheaper.

How do you propose to get that trebuchet near an air defense site in time of war?

Besides, modern air doctrine has the bomb dropped from well over 20,000 feet. Since it's GPS guided, it isn't going to miss. And dropped from that height, the bomb will be moving faster than the speed of sound by the time it reaches ground level, and no one will hear it coming.

Dont forget the fact that the US isnt producing anymore bombs anymore and we are being forced to import them from places like Poland and CHINA! WTF?!?!!?!

Hardly.

I suggested a long time ago that we simply drop the stockpiles of surplus ordinance from pervious conflicts.
The munitions dont even need to detonate. We could likely bury most enemies with brass, lead and iron.

I'm not sure, but I think peppering is illegal under the geneva conventions.

Then build a pretty big trebuchet.and they could probably be designed to be very accurate.and how much cheaper would it be to get a few soldiers to build a pre-fab trebuchet and stick a rock in it?im gonna say millions of dollars cheaper.


I saw a show with a technical college that built a working trebuchet that could fling a toilet pretty far- maybe the length of a foot ball field?

I could watch toilets shatter all day.

Dont forget the fact that the US isnt producing anymore bombs anymore and we are being forced to import them from places like Poland and CHINA! WTF?!?!!?!

I'm going to be really fucking pissed when the day comes I look at the underside of my bomb and it says "Made in China" on the bottom!

I'm going to be really fucking pissed when the day comes I look at the underside of my bomb and it says "Made in China" on the bottom!
All bombs such as the JDAM, GBU, Paveway, etc., are really just kits added to the following series of bombs.

The bombs are made by Lockheed-Martin.

There were four basic versions of these bombs in inventory for many years:

* 250 pound MK 81,

* 500 pound MK 82/BLU 111

* 1,000 pound MK 83/BLU 110 and

* 2,000 pound MK 84/BLU 117.

Production of the 250-pound general-purpose bomb has been discontinued and it is no longer carried in the active inventory. The remaining versions of the MK 80 series bombs are being converted from the MK designation to the bomb-loaded unit (BLU) designation during new production. The Navy's MK 80 series bombs remaining in inventory are filled with H-6 high explosive; the newer BLU series bombs incorporate a PBXN-109 explosive that provides less sensitive characteristics and is considered safer to handle and stow.

I'm not sure, but I think peppering is illegal under the geneva conventions.

If it were then the US would have to cut back severely on its use of cluster bombs and FASCAM.

How elegant a solution - and how old fashioned. Just drop a big rock on the target. :D Takes it out and reduces the possibility of unwanted damage (like local civilians). Beautiful!
I thought the improvised bomb they used on one of Saddam's underground bunkers was quite creative. They used an old 16" battleship gunbarrel filled with high explosive plastic. When they dropped it, the damned thing dug itself straight into the bunker complex and then detonated. The video ( which I can no longer find ) showed the doors of the complex blowing outward.

If it were then the US would have to cut back severely on its use of cluster bombs and FASCAM.

There's a reason that the current cluster bomb is called a "Wind Corrected Munition", and a reason that the Skeet cluster munition is "smart" and "self-guided".

They can be dropped from medium altitude (somewhere above 20,000 feet) and the bomb will still open some 60 feet from the designated aimpoint. Modern anti-armor cluster munitions find vehicles as targets - and failing to find a target results in the destruction of the munition.

There was an entire Iraqi armored division during the initial drive to Baghdad that was destroyed by several B-52 and B-1 (a total of six aircraft). The Iraqi division sortied out of the southwest corner of the city, and moved south towards the Marines.

The Iraqi division never got there. In a single pass, they lost 80 percent of their vehicles to smart cluster munitions.

All bombs such as the JDAM, GBU, Paveway, etc., are really just kits added to the following series of bombs.

The bombs are made by Lockheed-Martin.

There were four basic versions of these bombs in inventory for many years:

* 250 pound MK 81,

* 500 pound MK 82/BLU 111

* 1,000 pound MK 83/BLU 110 and

* 2,000 pound MK 84/BLU 117.

Production of the 250-pound general-purpose bomb has been discontinued and it is no longer carried in the active inventory. The remaining versions of the MK 80 series bombs are being converted from the MK designation to the bomb-loaded unit (BLU) designation during new production. The Navy's MK 80 series bombs remaining in inventory are filled with H-6 high explosive; the newer BLU series bombs incorporate a PBXN-109 explosive that provides less sensitive characteristics and is considered safer to handle and stow.

Thanks.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=penny_drop :p

How do you propose to get that trebuchet near an air defense site in time of war?
humvee

Besides, modern air doctrine has the bomb dropped from well over 20,000 feet. Since it's GPS guided, it isn't going to miss. And dropped from that height, the bomb will be moving faster than the speed of sound by the time it reaches ground level, and no one will hear it coming.


And if they hear it coming they can move the building in question out of the way.


And trebuchets are cooler,therefore they win.

And trebuchets are cooler,therefore they win.

They are cooler once you've conquered the place, and want to have fun tossing prisoners.

The Iraqi division never got there. In a single pass, they lost 80 percent of their vehicles to smart cluster munitions.

Your point being? That these kind of munitions do not leave areas scattered with undetonated mines and bomblets?

Your point being? That these kind of munitions do not leave areas scattered with undetonated mines and bomblets?
Redundant self-destruct functions designed into each Skeet warhead allow for clean battlefield operation.

Each Skeet has two built-in self-destruct features to help reduce the risk of unexploded ordnance being left on the battlefield. A timeout feature instructs the Skeet to self-destruct within seconds if a valid target has not been detected. An altitude feature causes detonation to happen a short distance above the ground. These important features significantly reduce the potential for unexploded ordnance on the battlefield—an issue for many older submunition products.

Redundant self-destruct functions designed into each Skeet warhead allow for clean battlefield operation.

Each Skeet has two built-in self-destruct features to help reduce the risk of unexploded ordnance being left on the battlefield.

A start at least - however does this not mean that if a target is located and bomblets are scattered above it, they can remain undetonated on the ground if they do not detonate on impact? How about FASCAMs?

A start at least. How about FASCAMs?
The FASCAM uses the ADAM submunition.

They have ALWAYS had a redundant timed self-destruct.

A start at least - however does this not mean that if a target is located and bomblets are scattered above it, they can remain undetonated on the ground if they do not detonate on impact? How about FASCAMs?

The BLU-108 submunition detonates prior to ground impact under all conditions.

Either it locates and steers itself to a target (and detonates above the target), or it descends and detonates just above ground level. If that fails, then there is a redundant self-destruct on landing.

Then build a pretty big trebuchet.and they could probably be designed to be very accurate.and how much cheaper would it be to get a few soldiers to build a pre-fab trebuchet and stick a rock in it?im gonna say millions of dollars cheaper.
I hope you're not serious. A trebuchet big enough to lob a 500lbm rock would be the size of a middling-large house. It's not portable - even if you put it on wheels, it'd hang up on very bridge, overpass, narrow passage, and utility wire you came across.

And the longest range ever acheved with a trebuchet is under one mile. Firing a smallish pumpkin.

Yeah... That would intimidate our foes!




Not.

They used an old 16" battleship gunbarrel filled with high explosive plastic.5" and 8" tubes. Not 16".


IRT the self-destruct devices built into cluster units... Those fail, too. Even dual redundant designs. They are, after all, desigend to keep the systems simple and inexpensive. And they're built by the lowest-bidder.

The US military itself admits to a failure rate in excess of 1%. Drop one BLU-87, and that's two potentially deadly UXOs lying about. Multiply that by the number of cluster munitions dropped...

And the longest range ever acheved with a trebuchet is under one mile. Firing a smallish pumpkin.

Yeah... That would intimidate our foes!




Not.
Hey, some of us are afraid of pumpkins! Always sitting there, looking so organge and round. They never move, never, just sit. Still, not even twitch. Staring, staring always.
Can't . . . Can't . . . take it an . . . NO MORE! NOOOO!!!
*Flees the room*

5" and 8" tubes. Not 16".

IRT the self-destruct devices built into cluster units... Those fail, too. Even dual redundant designs. They are, after all, desigend to keep the systems simple and inexpensive. And they're built by the lowest-bidder.

The US military itself admits to a failure rate in excess of 1%. Drop one BLU-87, and that's two potentially deadly UXOs lying about. Multiply that by the number of cluster munitions dropped...

The failure rate you mention is in cluster munitions without the self-destruct. That is, for cluster munitions that go off on impact, the failure rate is 1 percent.

It's far lower for the BLU-108/B.

Hey, it's a simple, effective way to smash something. If it worked for our Paleolithic ancestors, it should work for us.

Robert Heinlein took this to its logical end in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. His Lunies dropped rocks from the Moon onto the Earth.

:p

Robert Heinlein took this to its logical end in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. His Lunies dropped rocks from the Moon onto the Earth.
It would have been a much better idea to jsut drop the whole Moon on the Earth.

I hope you're not serious. A trebuchet big enough to lob a 500lbm rock would be the size of a middling-large house. It's not portable - even if you put it on wheels, it'd hang up on very bridge, overpass, narrow passage, and utility wire you came across.

And the longest range ever acheved with a trebuchet is under one mile. Firing a smallish pumpkin.

Yeah... That would intimidate our foes!




Not.

Oh ya,in medieval times they threw pumpkins at each other.

all you need is a greater counter weight(remember thet humvee i mentioned) and the trebuchet doesnt have to be as big.

Oh ya,in medieval times they threw pumpkins at each other.

all you need is a greater counter weight(remember thet humvee i mentioned) and the trebuchet doesnt have to be as big.
No, they threw rocks. For a short distance. The Warwolf, generally thought to be the largest trebuchet ever used in actual combat, was the size of a large house, and flung 300lbm stones roughly 250 yards. Max. The reproduction of the warwolf, matching the original in performance, used a 16 thousand pound counterweight. Hmm....

I make and use trebuchets for my own entertainment... Sorry, you're not going to be able to bluff me on this subject. They're worse than useless in a gunpowder environment.

No, they threw rocks. For a short distance. The Warwolf, generally thought to be the largest trebuchet ever used in actual combat, was the size of a large house, and flung 300lbm stones roughly 250 yards. Max. The reproduction of the warwolf, matching the original in performance, used a 16 thousand pound counterweight. Hmm....

I make and use trebuchets for my own entertainment... Sorry, you're not going to be able to bluff me on this subject. They're worse than useless in a gunpowder environment.


But they look soo cool.and how sickened would they iraqis be if they got owned by an army using trebuchets?

But they look soo cool.and how sickened would they iraqis be if they got owned by an army using trebuchets?
Well, ya got me there. They are cool. I get a crowd every time I take one to the park for a bit of fun.

Maybe we could hold a vast 'kegger' in the desert, and fling various bizarre objects..? Especially flaming pianos. They're the best. :D The insurgents would come and want to play, and they then next thing ya know, they're all busy growing pumpkins and building intercontinental pumkin chunkin' teams... Problem solved!

Of course, if that happens, H N Fiddlebottoms is gonna stroke out from anxiety... :p