NationStates Jolt Archive

Some students, encouraged by their Islamic studies teacher, have pressed charges against their chemistry teacher for "insulting Islam" and gotten him sentenced to three years in prison and 750 lashes. It seems the students had failed their chemistry exam and were denied the chance to re-take it.


http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=73171&d=14&m=11&y=2005

750 Lashes?

Ouch.

serves him right for insulting Islam.

(p.s. I'm being sarcastic)

Eep.

I hope the IDers aren't taking notes...

Heh, no kidding.

:eek: 3 years in prison and 750 lashes!?!

750 Lashes?

Ouch.

In some places you pay a lot of money for that.

Holy shitballs, batman!

This is like the medieval version of suing a teacher for 'not learning me good'!

Wouldn't that many lashes kill you? I mean, seriously...would there be anything to lash anymore after about 300?

This is like the medieval version of suing a teacher for 'not learning me good'!

Wouldn't that many lashes kill you? I mean, seriously...would there be anything to lash anymore after about 300?

In the days of Sail, and punishment "before the mast", 50 lashes was considered a death sentence for an able-bodied young man.

This is like the medieval version of suing a teacher for 'not learning me good'!

Wouldn't that many lashes kill you? I mean, seriously...would there be anything to lash anymore after about 300?

Its 50 a week for 15 wks.

This is like the medieval version of suing a teacher for 'not learning me good'!

Wouldn't that many lashes kill you? I mean, seriously...would there be anything to lash anymore after about 300?

depends on the whip i guess. they prolly arent using the cat-o-nine tails, at least i hope not...

In the days of Sail, and punishment "before the mast", 50 lashes was considered a death sentence for an able-bodied young man.

True, but this is 50 lashes per week. They're not saying if that's one day out of the week, but I seriously doubt that it is.

This is like the medieval version of suing a teacher for 'not learning me good'!

Wouldn't that many lashes kill you? I mean, seriously...would there be anything to lash anymore after about 300?

Not if the lashings were given on an installment plan, or served concurently :D

True, but this is 50 lashes per week. They're not saying if that's one day out of the week, but I seriously doubt that it is.
Probably 10 a day then 2 days off to heal and recover before going out again... :(

This is like the medieval version of suing a teacher for 'not learning me good'!

Wouldn't that many lashes kill you? I mean, seriously...would there be anything to lash anymore after about 300?
He's going to get something like 50 per week until all 750 are administered. I mean they're Saudis, not barbarians.:rolleyes:

I've heard of some-one surviving 1000, but I suspect that was a rare occasion.

It is a seems a bit harsh, but it is apparently 50 lashes a week, not as bad as all in one go.

The charges themselves seem incredibly braod and blurred. I'm not being funny, but it's a bit odd to try people on religious crimes, especially as most of the "crimes" can be interpretted to the prosecution's will.

He's going to get something like 50 per week until all 750 are administered. I mean they're Saudis, not barbarians.:rolleyes:
Ok, that makes a bit more sense. Hmm...what a thing to look forward to! "Alright teacher! It's Friday lashing time!" I think this person will develop a phobia for Fridays...

The charges themselves seem incredibly braod and blurred. I'm not being funny, but it's a bit odd to try people on religious crimes, especially as most of the "crimes" can be interpretted to the prosecution's will.
That's kind of the whole point. No government wants clearly defined rules, those are simple to execute and offer aboslutely no room to shelter friends or beat down enemies. When the law is fuzzy and impossible to pin down, that is when you can start being corrupt and creative.

Saudi Arabia is one of the most vile, primitive societies in existence today. The problem is, as long as they have so much oil wealth there is no incentive to modernise.

Saudi Arabia is one of the most vile, primitive societies in existence today. The problem is, as long as they have so much oil wealth there is no incentive to modernise.
And when they run out of oil wealth all those poor ignorant savages in the sand will begin starving since they can't buy food and blame the west.

I mean they're Saudis, not barbarians.:rolleyes:
You sure about that?

You sure about that?
I was being sarcastic.

The problem is, as long as they have so much oil wealth there is no incentive to modernise.
Actually, quite the contrary. While their politics are primative, and their legal system is frequently reprehensible, the country as a whole has been in an on-going industrialization and post-industrialization drive since WWII. Look up, for instance, Saudi Basic Industries Corporation (SABIC).

The Saudi royalty want to make damned sure they're not getting ripped-off by more developed nations (which has been, sadly, the general rule in these things), and are working very hard to create the infrastructure and skills necessary to do for themselves whatever they can, without external assistance.

Actually, quite the contrary. While their politics are primative, and their legal system is frequently reprehensible, the country as a whole has been in an on-going industrialization and post-industrialization drive since WWII. Look up, for instance, Saudi Basic Industries Corporation (SABIC).

The Saudi royalty want to make damned sure they're not getting ripped-off by more developed nations (which has been, sadly, the general rule in these things), and are working very hard to create the infrastructure and skills neceassary to do for themselves whatever them can, without external assistance.
Yeah, they're working so hard to modernize. They're imprisoning a science teacher at the demand of Islamic studies teachers and fundamentalist students, and they produce fewer new patents than countries much smaller and poorer than themselves.

Some students, encouraged by their Islamic studies teacher, have pressed charges against their chemistry teacher for "insulting Islam" and gotten him sentenced to three years in prison and 750 lashes. It seems the students had failed their chemistry exam and were denied the chance to re-take it.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=73171&d=14&m=11&y=2005
Which may go a long way toward explaining why many Islamic states are in dire straits these days.

Yeah, they're working so hard to modernize. They're imprisoning a science teacher at the demand of Islamic studies teachers and fundamentalist students, and they produce fewer new patents than countries much smaller and poorer than themselves.

Actually, the entire Islamic world produces fewer new patents than Israel alone, and publishes fewer books than Greece.

Actually, the entire Islamic world produces fewer new patents than Israel alone, and publishes fewer books than Greece.
Which means that when the oil runs out they'll be up shit's creek with a turd for a paddle. Of course they'll blame the west and send terrorists to attack us.

And when they run out of oil wealth all those poor ignorant savages in the sand will begin starving since they can't buy food and blame the west.
Can't wait... no really. The minute we have to stop being nice to Saudi Arabia, we can show those bastards what we really think.

and send terrorists to attack us.

They already do that...

They already do that...
Yeah, but when they've got no oil we can bomb them back to the stone age. Where's their level of technology now, early iron age? Maybe it won't make much of a difference.

They already do that...
Yeah, but this time they'll be really mean about it and send us letters calling us fat-heads immediatly before blowing us up.

Yeah, but when they've got no oil we can bomb them back to the stone age. Where's their level of technology now, early iron age? Maybe it won't make much of a difference.
Well some would argue that they are already in the stone age...

Yeah, they're working so hard to modernize. They're imprisoning a science teacher at the demand of Islamic studies teachers and fundamentalist students, and they produce fewer new patents than countries much smaller and poorer than themselves.Circular reasoning, you've got there. They haven't yet come up to speed yet, sure. Why haven't they..? Well, they've got about 200 years of industrial revolution to catch up on. The stuff they're building and buying has already been patented - That doesn't make it primative. Wait around a bit, and see what happens when they've finished catching up, industrially. It won't be all that long.

However, to provide specifics: Hows abount low-pressure polyethyline plastics plants, for instance? Not exactly stone age, now are they? They've had those in production for decades. They're competing directly with Exxon-Mobile and Union Carbide for the global plastics market. Additionally, they export fertilizer, wiring, formed and feedstock industrial metal products, construction materials, textile fibres, and a whole lot more.

Yeah, that meets your prejudices, huh?

Sure, their political and legal systems suck, but then I had already stiplated that. And that is what the jailing of this teacher was - A political and legal matter, not one of primitivism.

Circular reasoning, you've got there. They haven't yet come up to speed yet, sure. Why haven't they..? Well, they've got about 200 years of industrial revolution to catch up on. The stuff they're building and buying has already been patented - That doesn't make it primative. Wait around a bit, and see what happens when they've finished catching up, industrially. It won't be all that long.

However, to provide specifics: Hows abount low-pressure polyethyline plastics plants, for instance? Not exactly stone age, now are they? They've had those in production for decades. They're competing directly with Exxon-Mobile and Union Carbide for the global plastics market. Additionally, they export fertilizer, wiring, formed and feedstock industrial metal products, construction materials, textile fibres, and a whole lot more.

Yeah, that meets your prejudices, huh?

Sure, their political and legal systems suck, but then I had already stiplated that. And that is what the jailing of this teacher was - A political and legal matter, not one of primitivism.
My point is that they'll never come up to speed when chemistry teachers are punished at the request of Islamic studies teachers, and more saudis graduate with degrees in Islamic studies than with degrees in science or engineering.

My point is that they'll never come up to speed when chemistry teachers are punished at the request of Islamic studies teachers, and more saudis graduate with degrees in Islamic studies than with degrees in science or engineering.My counter to that is that they are doing it, your preconceptions to the contrary. In sixty years, they've made up more than a hundred and fifty years of advancement. They're still sending their best and brightest over seas to soak up all the best practices, and then bringing them home again to build and teach.

The teacher in this case? He was teaching a buncha low-grade sorts who couldn't pass a test... Not exactly their best or brightest- not him (or he'd have been teaching kids who could pass a test), nor the students (obviously).

My counter to that is that they are doing it, your preconceptions to the contrary. In sixty years, they've made up more than a hundred and fifty years of advancement. They're still sending their best and brightest over seas to soak up all the best practices, and then bringing them home again to build and teach.

The teacher in this case? He was teaching a buncha low-grade sorts who couldn't pass a test... Not exactly their best or brightest- not him (or he'd have been teaching kids who could pass a test), nor the students (obviously).

Hmm. The Meiji Period in Japan made up about 400 years in 40 years - without being rich like the Saudis. They then turned around and started kicking ass and taking names, starting with the battle of Tsushima.

The Saudis still hire far, far too many guest workers.

Hmm. The Meiji Period in Japan made up about 400 years in 40 years - without being rich like the Saudis. They then turned around and started kicking ass and taking names, starting with the battle of Tsushima.

The Saudis still hire far, far too many guest workers.
That's cultural. There's much less deference to central authority in Saudi, and frankly, the Meji had a shorter leap. They only had to climb to middle/late industrial revolution to catch up, whilst the Saudis first had to establish a solid goverment and nation, and are now trying to launch into the post-industrial age. They've reached about 1960, over all, and in some areas have arrived competely.

The guest workers issue is also cultural. Not the smartest move they've made, in my opinion, but it allows them to advance faster with less effort.

Actually, quite the contrary. While their politics are primative, and their legal system is frequently reprehensible, the country as a whole has been in an on-going industrialization and post-industrialization drive since WWII. Look up, for instance, Saudi Basic Industries Corporation (SABIC).

The Saudi royalty want to make damned sure they're not getting ripped-off by more developed nations (which has been, sadly, the general rule in these things), and are working very hard to create the infrastructure and skills necessary to do for themselves whatever they can, without external assistance.

Yes, mordernise only refers to industry and technology, not culture and morality :rolleyes:

Yes, mordernise only refers to industry and technology, not culture and morality :rolleyes:Culture an morality are culture an morality. They are what they are, and I can think of several quite modern nations which have cultures and moralities of which I disapprove (Saudi Aribia included). That in no way makes them any less modern.

And they were doing so well with the new movie theater and beginning to allow women to drive.

Ah well .... 2 steps forward and 1 step back is still forward progress.

Culture an morality are culture an morality. They are what they are, and I can think of several quite modern nations which have cultures and moralities of which I disapprove (Saudi Aribia included). That in no way makes them any less modern.
Makes 'em savage barbarians in my eyes.

Some students, encouraged by their Islamic studies teacher, have pressed charges against their chemistry teacher for "insulting Islam" and gotten him sentenced to three years in prison and 750 lashes. It seems the students had failed their chemistry exam and were denied the chance to re-take it.

Ok, that is just fucked up.

Maybe the students should be punished for not studying!

Isnt it funny how sharia law leads to kangaroo courts? wont it be great when Iraq adopts this system. out of the frying pan, into a similar but bigger frying pan.

But back on topic this really is appalling. The Islamic studies teacher seems to be the problem more than the students, theyre just stupid and easily led. Which is why they go to an islamic studies teacher every time they have a problem.

and the main problem is the whole saudi culture. religion can be beneficial, but not when people become so obsessed with it they can see nothing else.

Makes 'em savage barbarians in my eyes.
*shrug*

If you insist.

I've been there. They're just people. Fundamentally no different in their basic desires, needs, or attitudes from anyone else. Pick any random hundred Saudis, and you'd be hard-pressed to find a zealot in the lot. Oh, sure, some bigots, many parochial attitudes, and few mild zenophobes - About what you'd find from any random sampling about anywhere.

*shrug*

If you insist.

I've been there. They're just people. Fundamentally no different in their basic desires, needs, or attitudes from anyone else. Pick any random hundred Saudis, and you'd be hard-pressed to find a zealot in the lot. Oh, sure, some bigots, many parochial attitudes, and few mild zenophobes - About what you'd find from any random sampling about anywhere.

The diffrence is that said biggotry and xenophobia is instutionalised and practised in barbaric culture like this.

The diffrence is that said biggotry and xenophobia is instutionalised and practised in barbaric culture like this.In Saudi? Not so much. Other places I've been? Yeah, absolutely.

What you've got, instead, is cultural re-enforcement, not institutionalization. You want institutionalized xenophobia, you only need make a short trip across the Gulf, and you'll find all of that you could hope to have.

*shrug*

If you insist.

I've been there. They're just people. Fundamentally no different in their basic desires, needs, or attitudes from anyone else. Pick any random hundred Saudis, and you'd be hard-pressed to find a zealot in the lot. Oh, sure, some bigots, many parochial attitudes, and few mild zenophobes - About what you'd find from any random sampling about anywhere.
They're just people who can marry a foreigner, get a divorce, abduct the children even if they're in the custody of the wife, and bring them to Saudi to marry them off at the age of 12.

http://travel.state.gov/family/abduction/country/country_517.html
http://www.international-divorce.com/ca-saudi.htm
http://www.exmuslim.com/com/abusive.htm

In Saudi Arabia, marriage can be as young as 12 years old for girls
from http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110002777

They're just people who can marry a foreigner, get a divorce, abduct the children even if they're in the custody of the wife, and bring them to Saudi to marry them off at the age of 12.To which I say "And your point is?"

Anecdote =! data.

Even if it did, the preconception that they're primatives is still unsupported. Fact is, they're fairly modern. There's some seriously reprehensable sh!t going on, true, but be contemptuous of them at your (our) peril.

To which I say "And your point is?" Anecdote =! data.
My point is that the nation of Saudi Arabia has alot of work to do to become civilized. Oh, and the state department site isn't anecdotal.

Sorry... I threw an edit in there while you were responding.

Define civilization.

What I think you really mean is that you don't like their civilization.

...and few mild zenophobes...
Please don't be mean to English.

It's xenophobia; xenophobe. :D

Sorry... I threw an edit in there while you were responding.

Define civilization.

What I think you really mean is that you don't like their civilization.
Fine. I don't like their poor excuse for a civilization. No truly civilized person does.

IMHO civilization involves secualr rule of law that respects human rights.

No truly civilized person does.You bias are showing again.

What is "...truly civilized...?" You'll find that that's very much an eye-of-the-beholder POV. Many Saudis would find you and I to be utter barbarians, not fit for anything but being driven off with a stick.

You were doing fine with "I don't like their < (IMO) > poor excuse for a civilization." That's an absolute that no one can argue against.

just because they don't meet western expectations of being 'civilised' doesn't mean that they don't have a high level of technology.

they have an extremly good armed forces, with the best in european technology (mainly french and german if my memory serves my correctly (both well known for the quality of the weapons they produce (considerably better then most of the equipment produced by america for the record))) also they are one of the nations in the region most likerly to have nukes (it goes israel (definitly has them) saudi arabia (probably has them) iran (might have them already and could build them very shortly if they wanted to)).

they do have a nasty regime that I personly despise but then I could say the same for the united states.....

does that mean that the united states is uncivilised or backward?

You bias are showing again.

What is "...truly civilized...?" You'll find that that's very much an eye-of-the-beholder POV. Many Saudis would find you and I to be utter barbarians, not fit for anything but being driven off with a stick.

You were doing fine with "I don't like their < (IMO) > poor excuse for a civilization." That's an absolute that no one can argue against.
Yeah, well I'm a cultural imperialist. I firmly believe that we need to teach them the error of their ways and make them more like us. They're perfectly capable of being a secular, advanced people who respect human rights, but it's going to take pressure to force them to abandon what I see as barbarism.

:headbang:

just because they don't meet western expectations of being 'civilised' doesn't mean that they don't have a high level of technology.

they have an extremly good armed forces, with the best in european technology (mainly french and german if my memory serves my correctly (both well known for the quality of the weapons they produce (considerably better then most of the equipment produced by america for the record))) also they are one of the nations in the region most likerly to have nukes (it goes israel (definitly has them) saudi arabia (probably has them) iran (might have them already and could build them very shortly if they wanted to)).

they do have a nasty regime that I personly despise but then I could say the same for the united states.....

does that mean that the united states is uncivilised or backward?
1) The US produces arguably the world's best military technology. Especially in military aircraft. You simply can't despute that the US produces the best military aircraft.

2) The US government is orders of magnitude more civilized than the Saudis. Our culture is probably a bit less civilized than many European nations (death sentence, prudish attitude towards homos, and draconian drug laws hold us back).

They produce little or no technology for export. That's why they don't have a high level of technology. Tiny little Israel has a tech sector that dwarfs Saudi. Saudi universities produce a metric shitload of Islamic studies graduates who are only qualified to shout insults at Jews and non-muslims. They produce few scientists and engineers.

they do have a nasty regime that I personly despise but then I could say the same for the united states.....

does that mean that the united states is uncivilised or backward?

The US doesn't stone women/homosexuals to death, imprison authors and critics of the government, burn books and art considered obscene or degenerate, harass Jews, embraced terrorism, shelter dictators (Idi Amin was given asylum by SA), fund the spread of ignorant, radical Islam, or advocate the return of society to the way it was in the 8th century. To even try and equate them is preposterous.

1) The US produces arguably the world's best military technology. Especially in military aircraft. You simply can't despute that the US produces the best military aircraft.

2) The US government is orders of magnitude more civilized than the Saudis. Our culture is probably a bit less civilized than many European nations (death sentence, prudish attitude towards homos, and draconian drug laws hold us back).

They produce little or no technology for export. That's why they don't have a high level of technology. Tiny little Israel has a tech sector that dwarfs Saudi. Saudi universities produce a metric shitload of Islamic studies graduates who are only qualified to shout insults at Jews and non-muslims. They produce few scientists and engineers.
How many English Standard shitloads is that?

Olara']How many English Standard shitloads is that?

Damn, I'm going to have to bust out some alchemy texts to figure that out. Probably a few hundred crowns, or a few thousand drams, methinks.

Olara']How many English Standard shitloads is that?
thesaurus: metric fuckton
1. metric shitload

A metric shitload is roughly 2.287 english shitloads.I've got a metric shitload of stuff to get done this weekend

From Urban Dictionary

They're perfectly capable of being a secular, advanced people who respect human rights, but it's going to take pressure to force them to abandon what I see as barbarism.Trouble here is, they like who they are, and see no reason to change. Certainly not because some uncultured barbarians from dar al Harb want that!
I mean who would ever listen to someone who uses their left hand to handle food..?!

Trouble here is, they like who they are, and see no reason to change. Certainly not because some uncultured barbarians from dar al Harb want that!
I mean who would ever listen to someone who uses their left hand to handle food..?!
Then they'll have to be bombed into submission and re-educated. After all, somebody needs to teach them to use toilet paper instead of their left hand. In fact, that goes for all of Dar ul Islam.

Then they'll have to be bombed into submission and re-educated.Ah! The Stalin/Mao answer. :p

Ah! The Stalin/Mao answer. :p
What's wrong with using some of their methods. Nobody's wrong all the time.

What's wrong with using some of their methods. Nobody's wrong all the time.

Because a country that made a mess during the late 20th century rooting out and ruining the lives of suspected Communists resorting to Communist tactics is just hypocritical. That and America's public image goes down even futher closer towards "Rogue Nation" status.

Because a country that made a mess during the late 20th century rooting out and ruining the lives of suspected Communists resorting to Communist tactics is just hypocritical. That and America's public image goes down even futher closer towards "Rogue Nation" status.
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9301/houseofsaud11mw.jpg

I'm not advocating soviet or maoist communism. I'm just saying that extremism in the service of freedom isn't a vice. Didn't someone say that before? I forget who.

In other news, Saudi Arabia is about to join the WTO (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4427880.stm). :D

In other news, Saudi Arabia is about to join the WTO (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4427880.stm). :D
Good. Maybe more exposure to the rest of the world will serve to liberalize their culture some.

I'm just saying that extremism in the service of freedom isn't a vice. Didn't someone say that before? I forget who.Tailgunner Joe would have agreed with you. That makes it automatically a bad idea.

The ends DO NOT automatically justify the means, and we DO NOT have to destroy the city to save the city.

Frankly, I've just decided that you're a more-clever-than-usual troll.

Tailgunner Joe would have agreed with you. That makes it automatically a bad idea.

The ends DO NOT automatically justify the means, and we DO NOT have to destroy the city to save the city.

Frankly, I've just decided that you're a more-clever-than-usual troll.
No, I'm not trolling. I'm seriously disgusted by the Saudi govenment and society. I'm just not a really serious poster so I throw in a joke and exaggeration or two. Really though. I think they need to change or they'll face serious consequences in the future, and they will completely deserve the suffering comming their way.