NationStates Jolt Archive

From what I've heard, all he said is that an independant Québec would have an army. Which, you know, is kinda necessary, even if you don't have a large army, you need some kind of fighting force in case of emergency.

Do you have sources for those battalions of tanks, air force and transports?

And if so, it's not unreasonable to think we could have a small albeit well-maintained military. Scandinavian countries with population and economies similar to Québec's have military forces; they're just not superpowers on the international level is all.

Besides, it's not like Canada's a military superpower to begin with.

I posted the link to his idiotic comments about two weeks ago.

Sure, a military is a good idea. But his talk was rather fanciful - and sounded rather expensive.

I posted the link to his idiotic comments about two weeks ago.

Sure, a military is a good idea. But his talk was rather fanciful - and sounded rather expensive.
Heh, he could have been making promises he doesn't intend to keep.

He's a politician like all the others after all.

But at any rate, even should Québec become independant, Duceppe wouldn't be Prime Minister. André Boisclair would, since he's the new head of of the parti Québecois, and referendums and governing falls in the hands of the provincial government.

Funny how Duceppe and the Bloc are actually pushing to lose their own jobs at the federal parliament :p

Why are people even talking about Quebec's separatist movement anyway? It's not at issue. In fact the Quebec separatist movement is probably smaller now then it has been since before it began. It's not like we are in the days of the FLQ or even 1995 for that matter. It's a non-starter. Majority of people in Quebec have no desire to separate from Canada. The movement has become quite small. Albert's movement is probably larger and they are no threat to actually leaving either. Separation is not even an issue in this up-coming election and hasn't really been an issue since it basically folded in 1995. Sure there will always be those die hard's who are out of touch with the country and think the separatist are just around the corner, but they are not. Any one who thinks differently hasn't been paying attention. It's just talk and that is all. The movement is all but dead in Quebec. Will it stay dead? Only time will tell. But if history is any indicator as it usually is, they'll start bitching again in about 20 - 30 years. These things go in cycles, they don't really want to leave, they just like to make idle threats to see what the rest of Canada will give them for their troubles. Quebec is not going to separate. Deal with it! :)

Truth be told, the rest of Canada wouldn't bother trying to convince us to stay if there wasn't something in it for them. It's just nice hearing someone saying we should stay because we're important instead of "we should stay because we're too weak and stupid and irresponsible to make it on our own".
Is there something in it for me? Damn right. I might live and work in Ontario, but I was born and raised in Quebec. I still have quite a few relatives and friends in Quebec. I own property in Quebec. I would like to live and work in Quebec again - except job offers tend to dry up once prospective employers actually hear me speak my accented french. That aside, I plan to eventually retire to my home province.

I've never said anything along the lines of "weak, stupid or irresponsible". I have said things along the lines of, "not even half as tolerant and liberal as they like being made out to be", "not-so-subtly-racist and/or paranoiac", and "self-congratulatory", but not the things you've listed, Skaladora.

If Quebec seceds, I'll either secede with it (and stick it to those 'pur laine' sons of bitches who destroyed my town, which no longer exists, btw - who caused our town's school to be shut down, who precipitated a massive displacement of businesses and families in the name of ethnic nationalism - who have gone to untold lengths to eradicate or otherwise engage in a highly cynical and politically-motivated scheme to revise history and culture to suit the needs of the culturally-dominant group in Quebec.

Is Quebec french? Well, yes - but it wasn't just french. It was also english, yes - but more to the point, it was as much a scots enclave as french or english. There's a big chunk of the revisionism right there. Place names of scots origin are being translated or re-christened out of memory. Why? To foster the creation of Quebec-as-never-was, a land haunted by the grim exploitation of english-owned mills wherein cherubic francophone children were sacrificed to Baal after putting in 18 hours a day, on top of being lashed and/or molested by anglo men in tweed jackets. Only the undaunted, plucky spirit of les vrais Quebecois could withstand this unsung Auschwitz. Of course, the hard work and dedication of Lord Dorchester had nothing whatsoever to do with mandating the continuance of francophone culture in British North America.

And that's why Dorchester Boulevard was renamed Boulevard Rene Levesque. Because some people have a vested interest not only in biting the hand that feeds them, but in leaving big gaping holes in a people's collective memory.

Who benefits, Skaladora? That's the big question no-one seems to ask in Quebec anymore. Who benefits? Ask yourself that question, and see where the answer takes you.

I'll consider it my duty as a 7th- generation scots-canadian/quebecer with roots in Quebec going back 200 years to stay and refute whatever cockamamie BS is served up in the name of 'independence'. I won't be edited out.

Why are people even talking about Quebec's separatist movement anyway? It's not at issue.
I don't even believe that the one fellow posting on the matter (not skaladora) is a bona fide poster, I think it's just an unclever attempt to stir up muck and hopefully foster animosity via strategic puppetry. I responded at lentgh on the matter in the hopes of forestalling that eventuality.

I don't even believe that the one fellow posting on the matter (not skaladora) is a bona fide poster, I think it's just an unclever attempt to stir up muck and hopefully foster animosity via strategic puppetry. I responded at lentgh on the matter in the hopes of forestalling that eventuality.

Agreed.

I don't mind talking about Quebec separation, but why don't we all just pretend the troll doesn't exist?

Agreed.

I don't mind talking about Quebec separation, but why don't we all just pretend the troll doesn't exist?

Ah, I must of missed it. Okay.. I shall ignore. :)

Nothing damaging to the Liberal party? Are you sure we read the same report?:eek:

Some high-ranking Libs comtrolled everything. While Gomery exonerated Martin of any responsibility, I still believe that as a finance minister he should have seen all that money flowing and asked some questions.

I trust Gomery when he says Martin wasn't part of it, but I hold him responsible for not noticing something so big going on. He may not be a crook(unlike those bastards responsible, who are gonna get away with a tap on their fingers and not much else), but he is guilty of negligence in my eyes.

You clearly missed the point Gopmery raised and fail to understand the role of the Finance Minister. The minister's job is to set broad fiscal policy and budgetary guidelines. "See the money flow?" He was EXPECTING the money to flow into that program. He had to account for funding it after all. What he wasn't required to do was validate that all funds were properly spent. The issue of oversight is assigned to the Auditor General's office.

Indeed, the separation of setting budget versus account auditing was designed simply so that one minister didn't get to audit himself as that would be MORE likely to lead to corruption.

Any expectation that the finance minister does line-item auditing of program expenditures is rediculous. If he spent his time doing that, he'd have no time for dealing with his or her real job.

And even if his job includes validating overal program spending to ensure compliance with budget, the notion tha he is going to manually check every contract etc and validate them is COMPLETELY outside the realm of reality.



Adscam was a misuse of program funds to the possible value of under $100 million dollars.

A big-assed number, I know.... until you remember that the Federal Budget for this year includes program expenditures of over $150 BILLION.

So this program was a small line-item of under 1% of federal expenditures.

Expecting Martin to have dug into that one is like expecting the CFO of a major bank to be auditing the petty cash receipts from one local branch....


There are many legitimate beefs to have with Martin. But this ain't one of them.....

Thank you. I've been hearing a lot of "Why are we bothering trying to keep you with us, you're st00pid and you stink and you're ecomony will sux0rs a$$" lately.

Truth be told, the rest of Canada wouldn't bother trying to convince us to stay if there wasn't something in it for them. It's just nice hearing someone saying we should stay because we're important instead of "we should stay because we're too weak and stupid and irresponsible to make it on our own".

I have not heard anything of that, nor is Quebec's economy doing poorly, if Canada's economy is growing strong - Quebec's economy is growing strong. Quebec and Ontario are the most industrialized and commericalized provinces in Confederation. The rest of Canada is dependant on Quebec and Ontario.

I understand that you think that the only reason why the rest of the country wishes for Quebec to stay in Confederation is because there is something it in for us? Yes! A united, a strong Canada. Do you want to know what will happen if Quebec seperates from the rest? That means the Maritime provinces will separate and the West will too.

Not only that, I am in love with Quebec. I love the people and I plan to go to eventually study French and get my Political Science Masters at McGill in Montreal.

Why are people even talking about Quebec's separatist movement anyway? It's not at issue. In fact the Quebec separatist movement is probably smaller now then it has been since before it began. It's not like we are in the days of the FLQ or even 1995 for that matter. It's a non-starter. Majority of people in Quebec have no desire to separate from Canada. The movement has become quite small. Albert's movement is probably larger and they are no threat to actually leaving either. Separation is not even an issue in this up-coming election and hasn't really been an issue since it basically folded in 1995. Sure there will always be those die hard's who are out of touch with the country and think the separatist are just around the corner, but they are not. Any one who thinks differently hasn't been paying attention. It's just talk and that is all. The movement is all but dead in Quebec. Will it stay dead? Only time will tell. But if history is any indicator as it usually is, they'll start bitching again in about 20 - 30 years. These things go in cycles, they don't really want to leave, they just like to make idle threats to see what the rest of Canada will give them for their troubles. Quebec is not going to separate. Deal with it! :)

Hmph. You obviously don't visit Québec much.

*snip* a land haunted by the grim exploitation of english-owned mills wherein cherubic francophone children were sacrificed to Baal after putting in 18 hours a day, on top of being lashed and/or molested by anglo men in tweed jackets. Only the undaunted, plucky spirit of les vrais Quebecois could withstand this unsung Auschwitz.

I can't say I agree with most of your post, but this did draw giggles. :p

Those who advocate independance on those basis, I have little respect for.

I'm ready to accept that some people in our province want indepedance because of the cultural differences, and because the federal system is all but working well lately.

But I never let someone victimize us for the sake of so-called "liberation" from our "evil, naughty anglophone oppressors".

There have been a couple of shady deals where we got screwed, but those were orchestrated by the British Empire when we were conquered for the most part(and the British Empire has an history of stirring shit pretty much everywhere in the world in the colonial era). Which has little to do with the current Canadian government.

Just wanted to tell you that that particular reasoning for separation and independance is really a minority among Québec's population. Mostly rural folks who just don't know better, actually. They should be educated, not despised.

I don't even believe that the one fellow posting on the matter (not skaladora) is a bona fide poster, I think it's just an unclever attempt to stir up muck and hopefully foster animosity via strategic puppetry. I responded at lentgh on the matter in the hopes of forestalling that eventuality.

I disagree. All those grammatical mistakes and French words inserted into the text, as well the sentence structures make me think he's a legit Québécois.

I've seen too many of my friends butcher the english language in a similar way not to believe he really IS from here :p

IThere have been a couple of shady deals where we got screwed, but those were orchestrated by the British Empire when we were conquered for the most part(and the British Empire has an history of stirring shit pretty much everywhere in the world in the colonial era). Which has little to do with the current Canadian government.
With the glaring exception to that rule specifically being Quebec.

Now say a little 'thank-you' to Lord Dorchester, who went well out of his way to insist to Queen Victoria that her french-canadian subjects be permitted to retain their language, their culture, and their once-upon-a-time religion, Catholicism. Had Lord Dorchester been of a different opinion, the reality of the modern quebecois would be like that of the American cajuns - i.e. a few family names, a cute form of accented english, and some folk dancing. But the vast majority of modern quebecois are perhaps more likely to identify a dormouse rather than old Dorchester.

You're right in saying it has nothing whatsoever to do with the current federal government. One wonders how you can allow the wool to be pulled over your own collective eyes.

I disagree. All those grammatical mistakes and French words inserted into the text, as well the sentence structures make me think he's a legit Québécois.

I've seen too many of my friends butcher the english language in a similar way not to believe he really IS from here :p
I've seen capable butchers of language, but his posts are simply too mannered to be credible.

With the glaring exception to that rule specifically being Quebec.

You seem to forget that when High Canada and Lower Canada were formed, we were shoveled a nice debt. We actually had to pay a big portion of the money that built early Ontario.

I'm not saying there are dozens of such examples: there aren't. If we compare with the rest of the former British conquests, we're relatively fine. But that doesn't mean there weren't any questionable decisions here and there, though.


Now say a little 'thank-you' to Lord Dorchester, who went well out of his way to insist to Queen Victoria that her french-canadian subjects be permitted to retain their language, their culture, and their once-upon-a-time religion, Catholicism. Had Lord Dorchester been of a different opinion, the reality of the modern quebecois would be like that of the American cajuns - i.e. a few family names, a cute form of accented english, and some folk dancing. But the vast majority of modern quebecois are perhaps more likely to identify a dormouse rather than old Dorchester.

Dorchester was obviously in love with Québec. But he was also very good in politics. Trying to force us to cease using french and adopt english would have created a lot of unrest that would have been a hassle to take care of, and he realized it just wasn't worth it.

As for religion, well, that would have been completely suicidal: the Catholic Church had so much political power over Québec's population they would have caused rebellions everywhere. So instead Dorchester decided to make allies out of them by allowing them to stay and keep their power, and in exchange the church supported the new government.

So while Dorchester did indeed love Québec and have good intentions, there were also very good reasons why he was able to persuade the crown not to get too involved in "assimilation".


You're right in saying it has nothing whatsoever to do with the current federal government. One wonders how you can allow the wool to be pulled over your own collective eyes.
Again, what you see as wool over our collective eyes is only a perceived reality.

I've seen capable butchers of language, but his posts are simply too mannered to be credible.
Believe me, they aren't.

I know what I'm talking about. I'm pretty much an exception, as far as Québécois goes. My english is spotless, but don't underestimate the "franglais" spoken by my compatriots.

Hey, you're the one who suggested death camps as a valid political act. I wouldn't call other people children as a result.

If you had read the last part of this thread, you would find a lot of Canadians voicing pride in our military, past and present. No one in this thread had bashed Americans, and I think you'll find that if US-bashing occurs among Canadians, it's generally aimed at it's government and it's representatives, not Americans in general.

And I think you'll find that 60% of Canadians just don't like social conservatism. It's been that way for longer than you've no doubt been alive - a dislike of social conservatism has been around since the 60's. Harry Truman or JFK could be in office in the US, and Canadians would still dislike social conservatism. The root of it has nothing to do with the politics of the US government, although I agree that we get along better with more liberal US governments.

Look, you may be bitter about the Liberal government, many people are. The people I voted for certainly aren't running the show. But I don't claim that future Conservative governments plan to march me and my kind into a death camp. They may take away the rights of some of my friends to marry; they may make it more difficult for women to access abortion; they may slash social spending so that they can cut taxes; they may try to destroy universal healthcare; some of them may try to turn off the taps to non-white immigration; and some of them may try to make the Christian religion pre-eminent -- but I only accuse Conservatives of things that are either in their party platform, or have been publicly mentioned by their membership. I don't make stupid analogies to Hitler.
Well said! :)
Actually, it's more like
"Vive le Québec libre!" Thanks for pointing that out, I suck at French.:(

Thanks for pointing that out, I suck at French.:(

You're forgiven. I'm sure you have a lot of redeeming qualities ;)

Quebec won't seperate. What the heck would they do with the Montreal Canadiens? No way would people let the name be changed, you just don't do thatto an Original Six team. Of course, as a Leafs fan I'd enjoy the strange patriotism dilemma which would face my fellow Maritimers who happen to be Habs fans.

Also, if we had enough money for a freakin' aircraft carrier, we'd have already spent it...bringing the Jets back to the 'Peg.

Albert's movement is probably larger and they are no threat to actually leaving either.

Hello, nice to meet you. I am a Western Separatist. Alberta indeed has the resources to make it on its own. What is currently lacking, but growing, is political will to separate.

From a practical standpoint, Quebec has motive not to leave confederation, because net cash flow is positive from other provinces, into Quebec. Quebec would suffer a loss in terms of social spending with Independence, and being the practical, hard working people that they are, Quebec's, even separatist Quebec's know this.

Alberta on the other hand, is a suffering from a net loss of 10-15 billion per year, roughly 10% of the federal budget. This is lost through taxation, as well as equalization payments, non repayment of health care monies.. Separation would instantly shut this leaky faucet off, and individual Albertans would benefit to the tune of about 2 000 dollars a year, each; more when you factor in taxes like the GST.

The solution wasn't to spend my money giving Quebec separatists little Canadian flags(nor liberal cronies the actual money). Getting a little flag isn't going to make them feel better about being part of Canada; if you want to quell Quebecers demands, give them what they want! Let them control their own affairs.

They can be part of Canada without the federal government making decisions on their behalf, and they will be happier within Canada if you let them do so.


I am not some fiery youth; I am an informed man of 33 years; I follow politics and try to stay informed. I have voted each and every time I have received the privilege How will I vote in the next federal Election? I wont.

Fiscally, I am conservative, but the Harper conservatives have indicated that they wish to increase federal spending on health care. Health care is the realm of the provinces, and I resent them intruding.

The liberals? No. They promise nothing less than big(or even bigger) government, more taxes, more interference.

The NDP? No. While they can claim moral high ground, their ideology is at odds with mine. Any combination of them forming a majority with the liberals leaves me poorer.

The Bloc? Nope. I cant vote for them! No candidate in my area. But I want Quebec to receive respect and control over their own affairs, within, or outside Canada.

For me, a vote for any of the federal parties would be a violation of my hopes, dreams and aspirations, on a personal level. I can be a silent(nonvoting) whiner without being a separatist. So why am I?

One issue. One single issue puts me over the line, and makes me a separatist. Its not a small issue, and oddly, it doesn't affect me directly. It has to do with political, financial, and social freedom for a certain type of Canadian,found all over Canada.

Only in western Canada, this type of Canadian, is, and has been subjected to jail terms for doing what any other Canadian may freely do. And You, Proud Canadian, don't even know what it is.

Hello, nice to meet you. I am a Western Separatist. Alberta indeed has the resources to make it on its own. What is currently lacking, but growing, is political will to separate.

From a practical standpoint, Quebec has motive not to leave confederation, because net cash flow is positive from other provinces, into Quebec. Quebec would suffer a loss in terms of social spending with Independence, and being the practical, hard working people that they are, Quebec's, even separatist Quebec's know this.

Alberta on the other hand, is a suffering from a net loss of 10-15 billion per year, roughly 10% of the federal budget. This is lost through taxation, as well as equalization payments, non repayment of health care monies.. Separation would instantly shut this leaky faucet off, and individual Albertans would benefit to the tune of about 2 000 dollars a year, each; more when you factor in taxes like the GST.

The solution wasn't to spend my money giving Quebec separatists little Canadian flags(nor liberal cronies the actual money). Getting a little flag isn't going to make them feel better about being part of Canada; if you want to quell Quebecers demands, give them what they want! Let them control their own affairs.

They can be part of Canada without the federal government making decisions on their behalf, and they will be happier within Canada if you let them do so.


Ah yes. Ever since Alberta found oil the rest of the country is a drain. The fact that the rest of the country was always there for you throughout the early years, through the dustbowls of the drought years, the great depression etc falls by the wayside. After all, you DESERVED that charity as a Canadian, but Canada can go fuck itself when you wake up one day and find yourself sitting on a black gold mine.

In that regard, you're like the underemployed mooch living in Mom's basement until he's middle aged at which point he wins the lottery and immediately decides to move out and tell his parents how much he hates the fact that they couldn't have given him the millions themselves, how their rules sucked, and how they ruined his whole life.

But yes, of course everyone would just be happier if there were no rules (i.e. the Federal Government).

What would be hilarious would be if Alberta Seperated, and then the oil-producing areas got the same gumption, started whining about how their profits were being used to prop up rural farms and urban issues, and then told Alberta to get fucked.

Basicly, for Alberta, it seems to mostly comes down to one thing: greed.

I am not some fiery youth; I am an informed man of 33 years; I follow politics and try to stay informed. I have voted each and every time I have received the privilege How will I vote in the next federal Election? I wont.


Well, that's helpful. Solve problems by non-participation....


Fiscally, I am conservative, but the Harper conservatives have indicated that they wish to increase federal spending on health care. Health care is the realm of the provinces, and I resent them intruding.


Except for the fact that it's the provinces screaming for the money, you;d have a good point.


The liberals? No. They promise nothing less than big(or even bigger) government, more taxes, more interference.


For someone who claims to follow politics, it has clearly escaped your attention that, after inheriting the Mulrooney clusterfuck, the Liberals balanced the budget, decreased the size of the government - including divesting itself of several things such as NavCan, has DECREASED taxes, and has provided more regions with MORE autonomy such as the resource deals, Nunavut, etc.

But hey, keep on trotting out that tired old "big government, tax-and-spend Liberals" cliche. NEvermind how idiotic it is in relation to the actual performance of the Liberals or how rediculous it looks in comparison to your valid complaint that it's the Conservatives who are screaming the most for bigger spending (read as bigger revenue requirements).

The NDP? No. While they can claim moral high ground, their ideology is at odds with mine. Any combination of them forming a majority with the liberals leaves me poorer.


Which ideology is that precisely?

The Bloc? Nope. I cant vote for them! No candidate in my area. But I want Quebec to receive respect and control over their own affairs, within, or outside Canada.


Again, trotting out the tired mantra. Which affairs DON'T they have control over, and how does the Notwithstanding clause mitigate any other aras of disagreement?

For me, a vote for any of the federal parties would be a violation of my hopes, dreams and aspirations, on a personal level. I can be a silent(nonvoting) whiner without being a separatist. So why am I?

One issue. One single issue puts me over the line, and makes me a separatist. Its not a small issue, and oddly, it doesn't affect me directly. It has to do with political, financial, and social freedom for a certain type of Canadian,found all over Canada.

Only in western Canada, this type of Canadian, is, and has been subjected to jail terms for doing what any other Canadian may freely do. And You, Proud Canadian, don't even know what it is.

Ah, the mystery reason. A firm statement that justice is inequitably applied.

care to elaborate on what is a Federal crime in Alberta that is not anywhere else?

I'm rather curious, especially as this would certainly be challengable at the Supreme Court.

It's a sham, theres no one to vote for. Each candidate sucks equally.

And You, Proud Canadian, don't even know what it is.Nor do I care, overmuch, proud whatever-you-are.

Nothing damaging to the Liberal party? Are you sure we read the same report?:eek:

Some high-ranking Libs comtrolled everything. While Gomery exonerated Martin of any responsibility, I still believe that as a finance minister he should have seen all that money flowing and asked some questions.

I trust Gomery when he says Martin wasn't part of it, but I hold him responsible for not noticing something so big going on. He may not be a crook(unlike those bastards responsible, who are gonna get away with a tap on their fingers and not much else), but he is guilty of negligence in my eyes.
How right you are!!!!!!

Quebec won't seperate. What the heck would they do with the Montreal Canadiens? No way would people let the name be changed, you just don't do thatto an Original Six team. Of course, as a Leafs fan I'd enjoy the strange patriotism dilemma which would face my fellow Maritimers who happen to be Habs fans.

Also, if we had enough money for a freakin' aircraft carrier, we'd have already spent it...bringing the Jets back to the 'Peg.
They'd just change the name back to the Habitants. Then when their independent Quebec fails miserably and they are sucked into the US they will change it to the Montreal Habitats.

Ah yes. Ever since Alberta found oil the rest of the country is a drain. The fact that the rest of the country was always there for you throughout the early years, through the dustbowls of the drought years, the great depression etc falls by the wayside. After all, you DESERVED that charity as a Canadian, but Canada can go fuck itself when you wake up one day and find yourself sitting on a black gold mine.

In that regard, you're like the underemployed mooch living in Mom's basement until he's middle aged at which point he wins the lottery and immediately decides to move out and tell his parents how much he hates the fact that they couldn't have given him the millions themselves, how their rules sucked, and how they ruined his whole life.
Why is everyone always picking on the dude who moves back home. I moved back home to live with my senior father after my Mom passed away and don't feel like a loser!!!!

It's a sham, theres no one to vote for. Each candidate sucks equally.
That's not what their wives said. :p
People who don't think there is anyone good to vote for should go to the election booth and officially decline their ballot.

Hello, nice to meet you. I am a Western Separatist. Alberta indeed has the resources to make it on its own. What is currently lacking, but growing, is political will to separate.


And your own ports to ship goods around the world.

Probably gonna invade Vancouver and Prince Rupert. Oh wait minute, Alberta don't have a navy. :D

Why is everyone always picking on the dude who moves back home. I moved back home to live with my senior father after my Mom passed away and don't feel like a loser!!!!


It only counts as "picking on you" if you ARE the ungratefull mooch that I described. Others move in with their parents in part for the purposes of helping them (or for mutual support and companionship) which is hardly the scenario that I described.

I think a new government would be a good Idea, though I am not certain who I will vote for. I think the Liberals have become to complacent in their position of power; and that's why the sponsorship scandal occured in the first place.

I also don't buy it, that Paul Martin can be considered innocent in all of this. There can be only 2 conclusions. 1. He is lying, (He's a politician, did we really think he would admit that?) or 2. He is incompetent. Both are plenty good reasons why he shouldn't be running the country! He was the finance minister!. If this were anything but a government position, your employer would have already fired your ass!

The Liberals may have fucked us up now (you know, adscam). But if we voted for Harper, then we'll be fucked even more. BTW the Liberals didn't fucked us up that bad. Besides the adscam, Canada is doing just fine.

I think a new government would be a good Idea, though I am not certain who I will vote for. I think the Liberals have become to complacent in their position of power; and that's why the sponsorship scandal occured in the first place.

I also don't buy it, that Paul Martin can be considered innocent in all of this. There can be only 2 conclusions. 1. He is lying, (He's a politician, did we really think he would admit that?) or 2. He is incompetent. Both are plenty good reasons why he shouldn't be running the country! He was the finance minister!. If this were anything but a government position, your employer would have already fired your ass!


*sigh* yet another person who a) has no clue as to what the Finance Minister's job is, and b) can't be bothered to actually READ the report.

Scroll up and read: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9957325&postcount=271

But here, in a nutshell, is the thing: The Finance Minister is PRECLUDED from auditing. That is the job of the Auditor General. It is a division of duties DESIGNED to make it more difficult for corruption to happen without getting caught.

And lookee here.... it worked!

Yes, the current investigation happened because the Auditor General investigated the program and turned up the scope of the irregularities (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/auditorgeneral/report2004.html) which then prompted the start of the Gomery Inquiry. The other thing that gets ignored? IT was Chretien who REQUESTED the office of the Auditor General to look more carefully into the program, and MArtin who axed several people and called for the Gomery Inquiry when Sheila Fraser's report was released.


Was there corruption? Obviously.

Was it investigated, caught, and prosecuted by the Liberal party? Yes again.


Oh yeah, a party that nails their own when situations warrant.... boy, THAT's something the country doesn't need....:rolleyes:

Yeah, it's obvious that Martin is not part of the adscam, or otherwise, why did he launch the Gomery Inquiry? ;) BTW I still like Chretien, he's very good at standing up for Canada and against the American aggression.

edit: Oh yeah, Canada is one the least corrupted country in the world, least corrupted than the US. :D

The Liberals may have fucked us up now (you know, adscam). But if we voted for Harper, then we'll be fucked even more. BTW the Liberals didn't fucked us up that bad. Besides the adscam, Canada is doing just fine.
Harper will not ruin Canada. He will not send massive troops to Iraq. We've got none. He will not turn us into a right wing Christian theocracy. We've got a constitution. He will not abolish health care. He wants to be re-elected. He will not rape and pillage your village. Well maybe Hamilton.

What's with the Canadians and their elections and all these governmental collapses? I mean, didn't they have one, like, six months ago? What do you have to do to be stable around here? Canada's looking like Italy these days.

What's with the Canadians and their elections and all these governmental collapses? I mean, didn't they have one, like, six months ago? What do you have to do to be stable around here? Canada's looking like Italy these days.


Awwww, the trolls around here just keep getting cuter and ......well ..... lamer.

What's with the Canadians and their elections and all these governmental collapses? I mean, didn't they have one, like, six months ago? What do you have to do to be stable around here? Canada's looking like Italy these days.
It's called democarcy without a two party system. Canada may look like Italy but the US elections look like Cold War Russian elections. The outcome is already known before the vote.
We'd have stability if:
A) Quebecers would stop wasting their vote by voting for a party that will never be the government.
B) Ontarians would stop falling for Liberal scare tactics, stop acting like pussies, and vote Conservative.
C) BCers would stop smoking the ganja and go out and vote.

What's with the Canadians and their elections and all these governmental collapses? I mean, didn't they have one, like, six months ago? What do you have to do to be stable around here? Canada's looking like Italy these days.Have you ever heard of a minority government before?

Canada will always have mininority governments. If we have proportianate representation then we'll have the politcal chaos of coalitition governments like in India or Israel.

There will be more stability hopefully, if there was less politicking.

It's called democarcy without a two party system. Canada may look like Italy but the US elections look like Cold War Russian elections. The outcome is already known before the vote.
We'd have stability if:
A) Quebecers would stop wasting their vote by voting for a party that will never be the government.
B) Ontarians would stop falling for Liberal scare tactics, stop acting like pussies, and vote Conservative.
C) BCers would stop smoking the ganja and go out and vote.

Dream on ;)

Yeah, it's obvious that Martin is not part of the adscam, or otherwise, why did he launch the Gomery Inquiry? ;) BTW I still like Chretien, he's very good at standing up for Canada and against the American aggression.

edit: Oh yeah, Canada is one the least corrupted country in the world, least corrupted than the US. :D

Maybe so it would appear that he wasn't part of the corruption. Even if he wasn't, kinda sad that he didn't care about hundreds of millions of dollars going missing even sadder if he didn't notice it. You like Chretien? Damn.....another Canadian has been brainwashed by the Liberals...

Defended against US aggression? What aggression? You and the majority of Canadians need to wake up and realize that America is not the most evil country in the world.....fuck this is why I'm starting to hate my country.

Harper will not ruin Canada.
OK.......
He will not send massive troops to Iraq.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1049464033397_20?s_name=&no_ads=
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20030404/iraq_commons_motion_030403?s_name=&no_ads=
He will not turn us into a right wing Christian theocracy. We've got a constitution.http://www.conservative.ca/EN/policy_declaration/k)_social_policy/
63. Family and Marriage
i) The Conservative Party believes that the family unit is essential to the well-being of individuals and society, because that is where children learn values and develop a sense of responsibility. Therefore government legislation and programs should support and respect the role of the Canadian family.

ii) The Conservative Party believes in the right and duty of parents to raise their own children responsibly according to their own conscience and beliefs. We believe no person, government or agency has the right to interfere in the exercise of that duty except through due process of law.

iii) The Conservative Party believes that Parliament, through a free vote, and not the courts should determine the definition of marriage. A Conservative Government would support the freedom of religious organizations to determine their own practices with respect to marriage.

iv) A Conservative Government will support legislation defining marriage as the union of one man and one woman.
http://www.conservative.ca/EN/policy_declaration/j)_health/
58. Abortion Legislation
A Conservative Government will not support any legislation to regulate abortion.
hint hint
He will not abolish health care.
sure... look at BC right now.

fuck this is why I'm starting to hate my country.Yeah, I'm starting to think you're not a Canadian. Geez, if you hate Canada, move to another country. May I suggest a country? :D :D :D

edit: I'll give you 2 options. USC or Jesusland? :D

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7242/usa0cr.jpg

Yeah, I'm starting to think you're not a Canadian. Geez, if you hate Canada, move to another country. May I suggest a country? :D :D :D

edit: I'll give you 2 options. USC or Jesusland? :D

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7242/usa0cr.jpg

Do you want me to scan my Conservative Party Membership Card? I'm no longer a member of the Party because I disagree with the current leadership....

Yeah, I'm starting to think you're not a Canadian. Geez, if you hate Canada, move to another country. May I suggest a country? :D :D :D


Aw, lay off Novoga. He's got a right to his opinion. It's unfortunate he believes what he does, but it's his life.

As for you, Novoga, the rest of them have their right to their opinion as well. If you can't see that the majority of Canadians don't hate Americans, it's probably because you are looking for that attitude. It's like the Fraser Institute - they're always telling everyone how negative the CBC is towards the US, but when you actually look through the Institute reports, you see that even the FI admits the CBC is overwhelmingly neutral in their reporting. Admitted a minority of CBC articles have a negative slant towards the US - but a minority of their articles also have a positive slant. And frankly, when writing about mad cow disease and the softwood lumber dispute, it can be difficult to have a positive bias regarding the US's handling of those two issues.

Ah, the mystery reason. A firm statement that justice is inequitably applied.

care to elaborate on what is a Federal crime in Alberta that is not anywhere else?

I'm rather curious, especially as this would certainly be challengable at the Supreme Court.

Certainly Sir. After all, I was baiting you. I was rather curious if anyone east of Manitoba even knew what had happened.

http://www.wbga.org/11-12-02.pdf
http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0997cffj.htm
http://www.davidanderson.ca/NewsReleases/2002-10-24.htm
http://www.albertabarley.com/policy/newsreleases/ABC_calls.shtml

Here is a list of the farmers and their penalties.

Gary Brandt, 33, of Viking, faced 62 days in jail. He took a bag of wheat across the border, forgot about it and ended up carrying it back into Canada.

Ron Duffy, 50, from Lacombe, faced 68 days in jail. He took one bag across the border, then a commercial quantity of wheat across the line.

Jim Chatenay, 59, from Penhold, faced 62 days in jail. He took a bushel of wheat to the U.S. and donated it to a 4-H club.

Martin Hall, 42, from Vulcan, faced 131 days in jail. He took a semi-trailer full of wheat across the border and sold it.

Rod Hanger, 32, from Three Hills, faced 75 days in jail. He took a commercial load of wheat across the border and sold it.

Noel Hyslip, 42, from Vulcan, faced 131 days in jail. He took a semi-trailer full of wheat across the border and sold it.

Ike Lanier, 72, from Lethbridge, faced 60 days in jail. He trucked 300 bushels across the border.

Bill Moore, 63, from Red Deer, faced 131 days in jail. He donated a bag of wheat to a 4-H Club, then took a half-ton truck of wheat across the border.

Jim Ness, 58, from New Brigden, faced 25 days in jail. He drove 100 lbs. of barley across the border and donated it to the 4-H Club.

Mark Peterson, 42, from Cereal, faced 124 days in jail. He hauled a truckload of wheat across the border.

Rick Strankman, 49, from Altario, faces 180 days in jail. He took 756 bushels of wheat across the border and sold it for $1.50 per bushel higher than the Canadian price.

John Turcato, 42, from Taber, faced 131 days in jail. He drove 900 bushels of barley across the border.

Darren Winczura, 35, from Viking, faced 24 days in jail. He drove a bag of wheat across the border.

There you have it sir! Mystery reason out in the open. A civil rights Violation against western provincial farmers.

It's called democarcy without a two party system. Canada may look like Italy but the US elections look like Cold War Russian elections. The outcome is already known before the vote.
We'd have stability if:
A) Quebecers would stop wasting their vote by voting for a party that will never be the government.
B) Ontarians would stop falling for Liberal scare tactics, stop acting like pussies, and vote Conservative.
C) BCers would stop smoking the ganja and go out and vote.

Wow, you like to throw insults out like candy, don't you? Is their anyone you haven't tried to offend with your post?

You must be single-handedly trying to refute the Canadian reputation for politeness.

Notaxia: Yeah, well that's supposed to be up to the wheat board to sell wheat.

Big deal.:rolleyes:

Certainly Sir. After all, I was baiting you. I was rather curious if anyone east of Manitoba even knew what had happened.

http://www.wbga.org/11-12-02.pdf
http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0997cffj.htm
http://www.davidanderson.ca/NewsReleases/2002-10-24.htm
http://www.albertabarley.com/policy/newsreleases/ABC_calls.shtml

Here is a list of the farmers and their penalties. [snip]

There you have it sir! Mystery reason out in the open. A civil rights Violation against western provincial farmers.

Sir, you must be aware that there are farmers in Ontario and the Atlantic provinces as well. Why do you insist that it is a western only issue?

Do you want me to scan my Conservative Party Membership Card? I'm no longer a member of the Party because I disagree with the current leadership....http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9958447&postcount=285

ok......

Aw, lay off Novoga. He's got a right to his opinion.You're right, maybe I should lay off Novoga for now.

Harper will not ruin Canada. He will not send massive troops to Iraq. We've got none. He will not turn us into a right wing Christian theocracy. We've got a constitution. He will not abolish health care. He wants to be re-elected. He will not rape and pillage your village. Well maybe Hamilton.
Harper would be better off running a coin operated laundrymat. :D

He won't come clean on his hidden agenda and he certainly knows enough about the spin cycle. :)

We certainly don't need a Washington kiss ass in power, sending our boys off to the Iraqi cesspool. The economy is humming along just fine and we certainly don't need him to fix it.

Todays Conservatives are just ReformaTories. :D

Getting a little flag isn't going to make them feel better about being part of Canada; if you want to quell Quebecers demands, give them what they want! Let them control their own affairs.

They can be part of Canada without the federal government making decisions on their behalf, and they will be happier within Canada if you let them do so.


Dear Lord, I love you. I'd kiss you if I could. :fluffle:

I've been telling that for years. Finally someone's lucid enough to understand the only way to get both Québec and the rest of Canada living happily ever after!

That's not what their wives said. :p
People who don't think there is anyone good to vote for should go to the election booth and officially decline their ballot.

I second.

The day where we get 95% participation in elections, and 30% of voters decided to say they were abstaining becuase nobody deserved their votes, is gonna be a day when the political class has to open it's collective eyes.

65% participation is pathetic.

I second.

The day where we get 95% participation in elections, and 30% of voters decided to say they were abstaining becuase nobody deserved their votes, is gonna be a day when the political class has to open it's collective eyes.

65% participation is pathetic.


I know that this is an issue in the game but can't we add a none of the above part to the ballot? my reasoning is that a source from the elections canada... whatever the rest is says that we seem to be moving more like the states where we do strait elections not this I hate the guy who is in my riding but if I don't vote for him my party might not get as many seats type crap. Also this would allow people to be more active without being forced to call and such if they don't feel comfortable to do so. My view on our situation

liberal= spineless lying rats { esp. the ont. prov. ones}
cons.= corporate thugs and idiots who do not realise how they will implement what I see for the most part as right ideas
ndp= commies, and socialists pure an simple
bloc= speratist traitors whom have evaded treason charges

well, thats most of it but to elaborate the liberals changed the flag after all of those veterans from ww 1 and 2 died so that makes them scum, the conservatives say hey it took alot of money to be bi-lingual{which is true} so lets take down the signs and waste more money making english only signs{this is only 1 instance of the idiocy whihc is harper}, and the ndp think that people should all be equal no matter how pathetic, stupid, intelegent whatever you have against you or going for you shouldn't count is their message! and thats all.

Certainly Sir. After all, I was baiting you. I was rather curious if anyone east of Manitoba even knew what had happened.

http://www.wbga.org/11-12-02.pdf
http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0997cffj.htm
http://www.davidanderson.ca/NewsReleases/2002-10-24.htm
http://www.albertabarley.com/policy/newsreleases/ABC_calls.shtml

Here is a list of the farmers and their penalties.

<snip>

There you have it sir! Mystery reason out in the open. A civil rights Violation against western provincial farmers.

Oh. So what you are saying is that it is a horrid thing that people are punished for knowingly breaking a law. And that because the CWB predominantly affects western farmers, you hate the Liberals.

What you completely fail to mention is the relevant details like.... oh, the fact that there are other rural marketting boards that affect farmers elsewhere. That abolishing the CWB is hardly a Conservative platform element. That the CWB has been in effect since 1935 through multiple governments by varying parties - none of whom abolished it. Indeed, in 1935 - although Mackenzie-King was elected to a majority government that year(Replacing Bennet's Conservatives), in Alberta the bulk of the seats went to the Social Credit party which was the driving force behind the CWB idea.

Frankly, I agree that such entities are dumb ideas, but people breaking dumb laws still get charged and convicted. It is hardly descriminatory in that regard.

However the notion that it is worth leaving the country just to break up the CWB is pretty assinine. I mean, if you can't find local politicians willing to make this a priority agenda item WITHIN the federal system, what makes you so damn sure that all you'd wind up with isn't just an Alberta Wheat Board?


But hey, you're the one arguing in a thread about an upcoming Federal election despite your stated notion that you aren't going to vote anyway....

It only counts as "picking on you" if you ARE the ungratefull mooch that I described. Others move in with their parents in part for the purposes of helping them (or for mutual support and companionship) which is hardly the scenario that I described.
I stand corrected. :)

Dream on ;)
One can always dream. I mean, if Oshawa can turn from a long time NDP city to a Conservative one then there's always hope. :eek:

OK.......

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1049464033397_20?s_name=&no_ads=
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20030404/iraq_commons_motion_030403?s_name=&no_ads=
http://www.conservative.ca/EN/policy_declaration/k)_social_policy/

http://www.conservative.ca/EN/policy_declaration/j)_health/

hint hint

sure... look at BC right now.

Just because he has nutty ideas about parenthood doesn't mean we'll become a THEOCRACY. (see: Iran; Afghanistant pre-bombing)

Wow, you like to throw insults out like candy, don't you? Is their anyone you haven't tried to offend with your post?

You must be single-handedly trying to refute the Canadian reputation for politeness.
I belive in equal opportunity for all who I insult. I forgot all the people who complain about Toronto. If you hate TO so much go elsewhere for a job. How's that??? :p

Harper would be better off running a coin operated laundrymat. :D

He won't come clean on his hidden agenda and he certainly knows enough about the spin cycle. :)

We certainly don't need a Washington kiss ass in power, sending our boys off to the Iraqi cesspool. The economy is humming along just fine and we certainly don't need him to fix it.

Todays Conservatives are just ReformaTories. :D
As me dear departed Mother used to say, "Oy Gavalt". I give up - everyone vote in the Liberals again. Let's continue on with a defacto royal party with all the corruption you can buy. Let's live up to the definition of proletariat and bow our heads in supplication to the great Paul Martin. In fact let's rehire David Dingwall, let him quit again, so we can give him more "entitlements". :(

Just because he has nutty ideas about parenthood doesn't mean we'll become a THEOCRACY. (see: Iran; Afghanistant pre-bombing)

See, I'd rather not tempt the devil.

The sad thing is, if the good old progressive conservatives were still around, THEY would be an alternative to the libs. The current jesusfreaks militarist Bush-ass-kissing corporate whore party just doesn't cut it.

As me dear departed Mother used to say, "Oy Gavalt". I give up - everyone vote in the Liberals again. Let's continue on with a defacto royal party with all the corruption you can buy. Let's live up to the definition of proletariat and bow our heads in supplication to the great Paul Martin. In fact let's rehire David Dingwall, let him quit again, so we can give him more "entitlements". :(

Oy Gevalt yourself. You seem to forget that some of us like to vote for parties that are neither Liberal nor Conservative. And we have that right. If the Conservatives have policies we don't like, we're not going to vote for them just because we don't like the Liberals either. And for that matter, many people vote Liberal because despite all the problems, Canada is doing pretty well. The economy is ticking right along, unemployment is lower than it has been in decades, the dollar is higher (okay so that is mostly due to the US $ value dropping and oil prices increasing, and there are lots of people in manufacturing unhappy about this), and in most areas we are doing pretty well compared to other industrial democracies. Those are good reasons to vote Liberal too. Of course, many of us believe that things could be going better, which is why we're voting for other parties.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If Conservatives supporters want us to vote for their preferred party, then they ought to make their party do something to actually attract new voters. Like more attractive policies that don't turn back the clock socially. Attacking the rest of us in public forms, saying that we are stupid, or naive, or ignorant, or corrupt, or hate America, or hate the West, or hate Quebec, or hate Jesus, or that all non-Conservatives are welfare bums begging for entitlements and handouts anyway really isn't going to make us perk up and say "Wow, that insulting little prick has got a point! I've been blind! Blind! I've seen the light -- and it is BLUE!" **

(** Not that Plator himself has necessarily said any of the above things.)

Silliopolous, I was a Trollish Prick.I am more than a little bitter, and You helped point this out to me. I am sorry. I was wrong of me to bait, and wrong of me to Annoy someone I have never met.

First of all, 2/3s of western farmers want to opt out from this program, but its not up to the provinces, its up to the federal government. That same government allows Ontario farmers to do so. The reason why is known only to the big wigs in charge... It seems a little odd that we have regional wheat boards, in charge of what is clearly provincial matters(natural resources), and yet it is run federally.

The real kicker, as you put so well, is that certainly such an event would be a matter for the supreme court of Canada, but unfortunately, since '96 or so, the government body concerned with the export issue(revenue Canada i believe), has refused to rule that the arrest/siezure of equipment was either legal or illegal, and so the farmers are not able to have their day in court.

The CWB has no apparent legal powers when it comes to policing, and as such, what the farmers did, and what the CWB did to them, falls into a grey area. As fair as Civil law is concerned, nothing really happened, until the CWB or revenue Canada says "oh, we took it upon ourselves to throw some farmers in jail, and take their grain trucks, the grain, and/or the profits from them selling it.". I dont know that the farmers even recieved criminal records. I am trying to find that out.

The point is, if the CWB did have the right to do this, They'd say so, and the farmers would take them to court, and the judge would laugh off their concerns. If the CWB doesnt have this right, and they allow the farmers their day in court, thats the end of the CWB's Monopoly. The Canadian Wheatboard benefits from keeping this a non issue.

Anyway, Thanks for listening to me rant, And I will try to keep it down to a dull roar next time.

The point is, if the CWB did have the right to do this, They'd say so, and the farmers would take them to court, and the judge would laugh off their concerns. If the CWB doesnt have this right, and they allow the farmers their day in court, thats the end of the CWB's Monopoly. The Canadian Wheatboard benefits from keeping this a non issue.

Anyway, Thanks for listening to me rant, And I will try to keep it down to a dull roar next time.

Notaxia, this is an issue, and you're more than welcome to rant. As a farmer's daughter, I like to see these things brought up (although admittedly, my parents' aren't concerned about the CWB monopoly, but that's their thing).

As a note, to get around the CWB regs, I know that there are organic farmers who sell their product to the CWB, buy it back, and then sell it over the border. A lot of hoops to jump through, but apparently if you sell it to them once, you're fine after that. I don't know if the price for non-organic products in the US is high enough to make this economically viable, but it is one way to flout the rules, get media attention, and maybe make some politician pay attention.

I'd lobby the Conservatives and the NDP too. The Conservatives pat themselves on the back for being a "Western" party - so they'd better pay attention to Western farmers. And the NDP are looking for a federal wedge issue to get seats back in Sask. and Man. and maybe gain some in Alta. If they make enough noise about this issue, then the Libs will have to start paying attention to the problem.

If you can make it an election issue by having you and your neighbours and their neighbours (and so on) spamming every sitting and wanna-be MP in the West, you might get some changes made.

Exactly. Complaining that something isn't being addressed as a federal issue when your own regional MPPs aren't pushing for it says something, but that something is not that the problem is entirely with Ottawa, but rather with your local elected officials.

And don't tell them that you just won't vote. In Alberta, get a group together at your MP's next town hall and loudly tell him to either raise the frickin issue or to expect you to vote Liberal next time around.....


I've lived in Ottawa for a while now (not born here), and every time I go out west and someone finds out where I'm from I get "The Rant". Like everything's all my fault due to proximity or something.

To which I respond with something along the lines of: "Hey! Don't blame ME personally because of which assholes the Rest of Canada sends to live in my backyard so they can fuck up the country! Ottawa is the seat of power - not the base, and I only get to vote in one riding just like you!"

I've lived in Ottawa for a while now (not born here), and every time I go out west and someone finds out where I'm from I get "The Rant". Like everything's all my fault due to proximity or something.


I hear that. As a BCer, I'm baffled by the "Blame Ontario" mindset. I like to wave my arms and point out that only the northern BC ridings vote Conservative reliably - and in the last election, the votes of southern BC actually helped keep the Conservatives from forming government, and helped propel the NDP into a position strong enough to influence government policy.

But the "Blame Ontario"ers don't seem to notice that the West isn't a united front.

I hear that. As a BCer, I'm baffled by the "Blame Ontario" mindset. I like to wave my arms and point out that only the northern BC ridings vote Conservative reliably - and in the last election, the votes of southern BC actually helped keep the Conservatives from forming government, and helped propel the NDP into a position strong enough to influence government policy.

But the "Blame Ontario"ers don't seem to notice that the West isn't a united front.


I live west of Ottawa, rural Ottawa Valley. My riding votes conservative each and every time. So when I hear that rant: "Ontario = mindless Liberal sheep" it tends to amuse the hell out of me.

Nor can they ever explain why it is that the Alliance fails here when Ontario has voted in Conservative provincial governments 8 out of the last 11 elections.

Because Ontario is so Liberal?

Nope.

Because the Federal conservative parties can't help pander to that whole "hate Ontario - they're assholes - we'll screw them in favour of the West!" attitide?

Bingo!

We're not uber-liberal. but we're not about to support a party that indicates their disdain for us and desire to screw us either.

That would just be stupid of us now wouldn't it?

I know people here in Ontario that will be voting Liberal 'cause that's their kinda Conservative.

Which they don't find associating with Mr. Harper's thrice-christened western protest party.

I lost a minute and a half of life today that I'll never get back listening to a news report about the ueseless vote put forward by the NDP for Martin to call an election. Sheesh!!!!!!!! :mad:

I lost a minute and a half of life today that I'll never get back listening to a news report about the ueseless vote put forward by the NDP for Martin to call an election. Sheesh!!!!!!!! :mad:
and you lost another minute and a half by complaining about it here. :rolleyes:

Looks like Layton and his newest promoter....Steve Harper, owe you 3 minutes of quality life!! :)

I second.

The day where we get 95% participation in elections, and 30% of voters decided to say they were abstaining becuase nobody deserved their votes, is gonna be a day when the political class has to open it's collective eyes.

65% participation is pathetic.
I worked for elections canada last election time. You would not believe how many people on the voter's list are dead, duplicates or otherwise unable to vote. The list of voters in this country needs to be cleaned up badly. I get the feeling that if it was cleaned up the actual percentage of population who was voting would increase.

B) Ontarians would stop falling for Liberal scare tactics, stop acting like pussies, and vote Conservative.
Why the hell should we vote conservative?

I personally, voted NDP. The liberals won in my riding though.

I like to wave my arms and point out that only the northern BC ridings vote Conservative reliablyNot really, our riding (Skeena-Bulkey Valley) is traditionally a NDP riding. Except between 1993-2004 when the jesusfreaks took over, I blame the rednecks in Terrace :eek: :mp5: .

Not really, our riding (Skeena-Bulkey Valley) is traditionally a NDP riding. Except between 1993-2004 when the jesusfreaks took over, I blame the rednecks in Terrace :eek: :mp5: .
Damned Terrace. I knew they were bad for Canada.

I lost a minute and a half of life today that I'll never get back listening to a news report about the ueseless vote put forward by the NDP for Martin to call an election. Sheesh!!!!!!!! :mad:It's not a useless motion, it's more like this:

public class Liberal {

public static void main(String[] args) {

boolean ndpmotion;
boolean noconfidence;
boolean liberalDie;
liberalDie = false;
ndpmotion = false;
noconfidence = false;


if(ndpmotion == true){
System.out.println("liberals accepts ndp ultimatum");
} else {
System.out.println("liberals are going to die");
noconfidence = true;
}

if(noconfidence == true){
System.out.println("Liberals lost no-confidence vote");
liberalDie = true;
} else {
System.out.println("vote did not happen");
}

if(liberalDie == true){
System.out.println("Liberals died");
} else {
System.out.println("Liberals survived... for now");
}

}

}

Understand Java? The code works, try it! :D :D :D

It's not a useless motion, it's more like this:
Understand Java? The code works, try it! :D :D :D

Yeah, but it would be more fun if you'd parse args to let people set the variables.....

Not really, our riding (Skeena-Bulkey Valley) is traditionally a NDP riding. Except between 1993-2004 when the jesusfreaks took over, I blame the rednecks in Terrace :eek: :mp5: .

Yes, as a matter of fact, I was generalizing. It was easier and faster to make my point that way. What I should have said was “the only ridings that vote Conservative reliably are most of the northern ridings”. But overall, your complaint bolsters my arguement: BCers don’t vote Conservative as much as the Conservatives like to think.

I worked for elections canada last election time. You would not believe how many people on the voter's list are dead, duplicates or otherwise unable to vote. The list of voters in this country needs to be cleaned up badly. I get the feeling that if it was cleaned up the actual percentage of population who was voting would increase.
I agree. Most people think electoral irregularities are an issue for dictatorial, totalitarian governments who pretend to be democracies, or one-party systems (ala Soviet a while back).

We only need look as far as our won country to see it isn't the case. I'd be very interested to know what UN observers would have to say about Canadian and American elections if we invited them to observe on a regular basis.

That being said, even if cleaning up the lists actually raised the participation level by 10%(which is a huge margin), that would still only give us three in four Canadians who bother to vote, which I consider still dismally low.

How someone can bitch about the way his country is run and not bother to vote is beyond me. Just go ahead and vote for the greens or the christian coalition, or the potheads, dammit! If you don't like how things are, then protest with your vote, or have it annulled.

Like I was saying, the day where 30% of the Canadians show up to the poll, and state clearly no one in their riding is worth voting for, is the day political parties get a collective slap in the face and wake up.

the day where 30% of the Canadians show up to the poll, and state clearly no one in their riding is worth voting for, is the day political parties get a collective slap in the face and wake up.
...before rolling over and snoring up a storm again. Sorry to sound a negative note, I just have a feeling about that...

...before rolling over and snoring up a storm again. Sorry to sound a negative note, I just have a feeling about that...
Well, if we weren't all collectively so politically apathetic, they'd be forced to do something.

The only thing allowing politicians to be so complacent is that we let them.

We have nobody to blame but ourselves.

...before rolling over and snoring up a storm again. Sorry to sound a negative note, I just have a feeling about that...
We're already snoring down here...

How someone can bitch about the way his country is run and not bother to vote is beyond me. Just go ahead and vote for the greens or the christian coalition, or the potheads, dammit! If you don't like how things are, then protest with your vote, or have it annulled.

My mom has been deliberately spoiling her ballot for at least a decade in both federal and provincial elections (if she lived in a municipality, she would probably spoil that ballot too). She is convinced that somebody keeps track of these spoiled ballots so someone is aware of her contempt for the choices offered to her.

Dakini, or others who may know, is someone keeping track of her spoiled ballot, or does it just make the ballot counter think she is too stupid to fill it out properly?

I paid very close attention to the polling results in the last federal and BC provincial election, but I do not recall hearing anything whatsoever about the number of spoiled ballots.

Significant contributions to this thread thus far...

We're already snoring down here...

My supposition is that regardless of who gets elected in Canada, it won't matter to the US.

Please have your elections now, so that you can return to your normally scheduled US bashing that we're so used to.

How about you knock off the flame-baiting and stick to your original viewpoint:

That's all I can say, since I'm not entitled to vote in Canadian elections. I wish more Canadians had the same attitude about US elections.

Please.

Please.

When all of the Canadians on NS General foreswear forever any commentary on any US politics, I'll be glad to be quiet.

When all of the Canadians on NS General foreswear forever any commentary on any US politics, I'll be glad to be quiet.


I'm not asking you to be quiet.

I'm asking you to be relevant to the discussion.

I'm not asking you to be quiet.

I'm asking you to be relevant to the discussion.

IIRC, I've posted a relevant post before, about the advantages of having a multi-party system.

and you lost another minute and a half by complaining about it here. :rolleyes:

Looks like Layton and his newest promoter....Steve Harper, owe you 3 minutes of quality life!! :)
Ahh but it's therapeutic to vent, plus I'm a faster typer than that.
At least a motion of non-confidence is being brought down Thursday. Or will it??? :confused:

I worked for elections canada last election time. You would not believe how many people on the voter's list are dead, duplicates or otherwise unable to vote. The list of voters in this country needs to be cleaned up badly. I get the feeling that if it was cleaned up the actual percentage of population who was voting would increase.
The same goes for the juror's list in Ontario. :)

Why the hell should we vote conservative?

I personally, voted NDP. The liberals won in my riding though.
We've got to send a message to the Liberals that they don't have a free ride just because the rest of the parties don't have a national following. If they win again might as well just let them stack their bank accounts with our hard earned money. Austa La Vista Baby!!!!!:p

It's not a useless motion, it's more like this:

public class Liberal {

public static void main(String[] args) {

boolean ndpmotion;
boolean noconfidence;
boolean liberalDie;
liberalDie = false;
ndpmotion = false;
noconfidence = false;


if(ndpmotion == true){
System.out.println("liberals accepts ndp ultimatum");
} else {
System.out.println("liberals are going to die");
noconfidence = true;
}

if(noconfidence == true){
System.out.println("Liberals lost no-confidence vote");
liberalDie = true;
} else {
System.out.println("vote did not happen");
}

if(liberalDie == true){
System.out.println("Liberals died");
} else {
System.out.println("Liberals survived... for now");
}

}

}

Understand Java? The code works, try it! :D :D :D
Me dumb dumb me don't get it. :confused:

Ahh but it's therapeutic to vent, plus I'm a faster typer than that.
At least a motion of non-confidence is being brought down Thursday. Or will it??? :confused:
IF and that is a big IF, the Conservatives won a minority government, which parties would support their programs?

That is the million dollar question.

My mom has been deliberately spoiling her ballot for at least a decade in both federal and provincial elections (if she lived in a municipality, she would probably spoil that ballot too). She is convinced that somebody keeps track of these spoiled ballots so someone is aware of her contempt for the choices offered to her.

Dakini, or others who may know, is someone keeping track of her spoiled ballot, or does it just make the ballot counter think she is too stupid to fill it out properly?

I paid very close attention to the polling results in the last federal and BC provincial election, but I do not recall hearing anything whatsoever about the number of spoiled ballots.
They don't keep track of spoiled ballots. The ballots are just thrown out. The only thing they do keep track of is if you officially refuse your ballot at the polling station. Make sure you sign the proper document. ;)

IF and that is a big IF, the Conservatives won a minority government, which parties would support their programs?

That is the million dollar question.
The Liberals would at first. I'm sure the traitorous Bloc would as well. I mean they're already traitorous to their country might as well be traitorous to their ethics as well. Look at their founder (Lucien Bouchard) - the guy belonged to almost every political party there is.

The Liberals would at first. I'm sure the traitorous Bloc would as well. I mean they're already traitorous to their country might as well be traitorous to their ethics as well. Look at their founder (Lucien Bouchard) - the guy belonged to almost every political party there is.
The Liberals are not going to support Harper, and the Bloc and Conservatives are not the best of friends.

The Bloc only cares about their lofty standing in the polls which will translate into more Bloc seats and an impetus for another Referendum vote.

Harper does not have what it takes to run this country. He is too right wing. I think even the progressives in his party are not to happy with him.

And McKay stabbed his former party in the back by agreeing to a merger with the Alliance.

Two lame ducks do not bode well for Canada.

Despite the sponsorship scandal, Canada is doing quite well and I do hope that voters remember that when they head to the polls.

We've got to send a message to the Liberals that they don't have a free ride just because the rest of the parties don't have a national following. If they win again might as well just let them stack their bank accounts with our hard earned money. Austa La Vista Baby!!!!!:p

The major opposition parties (other than the Bloc) do have a national following.

The NDP has seats in the West (BC), central Canada (Ontario), and in the Atlantic (Nova Scotia), and have won seats in the North (Yukon) and in many other provinces in the past (such as Saskatchewan and Manitoba).

The Conservatives have seats in the West (duh!), central Canada (Ontario), and in the Atlantic (all except PEI).

How can you say they don't have national representation? The only place they lack seats is in Quebec, and that's because the Bloc have all the non-Liberal (and majority of) the seats.

They're not getting a free ride. The fact remains that the economy is doing well and unemployment is at lows unseen in decades. Frankly, despite Adscam, people aren't hurting enough to be angry, despite the fact that there are many things that could be improved. That and according to many polls, Canadians are cynical and believe that it doesn't matter which party is elected - all parties have crooked politicians.

Me dumb dumb me don't get it. :confused:


public class Liberal {

public static void main(String[] args) {

boolean ndpmotion;
boolean noconfidence;
boolean liberalDie;
liberalDie = false; //false when the Liberals survive no-confidence vote, true when the Liberal gov't fell.
ndpmotion = false; //true when the Liberals accept the ndp motion, false when the Liberals ignore the motion. Since the Liberals ignore the motion, I set it to false.
noconfidence = false; //true when the motion passed


if(ndpmotion == true){//true if the Liberals accepted motion
System.out.println("liberals accepts ndp ultimatum");
} else {//triggers no-confidence vote if ndpmotion = false
System.out.println("liberals are going to die");
noconfidence = true;//this what triggers the vote
}

if(noconfidence == true){//if true, no-confidence vote passes and Liberals fall.
System.out.println("Liberals lost no-confidence vote");
liberalDie = true;//sets liberalDie to true
} else {
System.out.println("vote did not happen");
}

if(liberalDie == true){//if true, Liberal gov't fell.
System.out.println("Liberals died");
} else {
System.out.println("Liberals survived... for now");
}

}

}


Note that "System.out.println("blah blah blah");" is a print statement

Hell, I'm a Conservative and I still don't want an election until well after winter. :)

Me dumb dumb me don't get it.

Don't feel bad Plator, not everyone needs to know Java.

And the barbs are flying.

MArtin pulled out a financial aid deal for the softwood lumber industry to help them out while we are still unable to get the Americans to live up to their trade agreement. It's value? $1 Billion.

Harper ALSO pulled out a financial aid deal for the softwood lumber industry to help them out while we are still unable to get the Americans to live up to their trade agreement. It's value? $5 Billion.

Harper, of course, added the following comment:

"If they come up with anything, we know it will just be a phoney policy for the purposes of an election campaign,"

So, if Harper thinks that a $1 Billion plan is "phoney", no doubt because it is something unreasonable, then what should we make of his $5 Billion plan?

Stupendously phoney?

And the standard "evade and attack" methodology is also in full swing.

On the issue of seniors' benefit increases being potentially cancelled if the government fell, Solberg said: "... Why doesn't the prime minister just admit that the real reason they don't want to face the voters is the only vision they have is the culture of entitlement for the Liberal Party?"

OK. that's nice. So what about the seniors? As in, "answer the fucking question!"

But Harper made it very clear that his platform equates to one thing. "we'll clean up the mess that this government created."

Well Stephen, THIS government has been in power for a very brief period. In that time unemployment has dropped a half percent, the Canadian dollar is up 15%, and taxes have been lowered. again.


How exactly are you going to clean up THAT mess?

EDIT: Linky to the article from whence the quotes came (http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051123/liberals_spending_051123). Before someone asks.....

Don't feel bad Plator, not everyone needs to know Java.
How can you live a full life without knowledge of Java? :eek:

(Is a university student in computer science)

How can you live a full life without knowledge of Java? :eek:

(Is a university student in computer science)

Yeah well, I'm sure Plator can get by in his future career as a sanitation engineer without knowing computer programming. /jk

Yeah well, I'm sure Plator can get by in his future career as a sanitation engineer without knowing computer programming. /jk
There are jobs where you don't use computer programming? :eek:

[/needs to get out of the faculty more often]

The Liberals are not going to support Harper, and the Bloc and Conservatives are not the best of friends.

The Bloc only cares about their lofty standing in the polls which will translate into more Bloc seats and an impetus for another Referendum vote.

Harper does not have what it takes to run this country. He is too right wing. I think even the progressives in his party are not to happy with him.

And McKay stabbed his former party in the back by agreeing to a merger with the Alliance.

Two lame ducks do not bode well for Canada.

Despite the sponsorship scandal, Canada is doing quite well and I do hope that voters remember that when they head to the polls.
CH CH CH.....I think you've fallen into the Liberal Scaremongering Tactic against the Conservatives. ;)

Don't feel bad Plator, not everyone needs to know Java.
Thanks. That's good because I always thought Java was coffee. :)

CH CH CH.....I think you've fallen into the Liberal Scaremongering Tactic against the Conservatives. ;)
Okay my young friend, please detail exactly what the Conservatives will give the people of this great country if they indeed are elected?

Bottom line, how would a Conservative government improve my standard of living?

if it wasn't for the *urgh* revived fervor for another referendum in Quebec i would vote Bloc. But since they've decided to annoy me again with it, i will probably vote NDP.

I would never vote for the conservatives because *shudders*...

I predict another minority government.. and if, oh-dear-goddess, the Conservatives win.. i am immigrating!

I'd vote for any party that drops the dollar. God damn High-earning Canadian Money.

if it wasn't for the *urgh* revived fervor for another referendum in Quebec i would vote Bloc. But since they've decided to annoy me again with it, i will probably vote NDP.

I would never vote for the conservatives because *shudders*...

I predict another minority government.. and if, oh-dear-goddess, the Conservatives win.. i am immigrating!

Fucking hell, you'd move just because you don't like a minority government? What the fuck is wrong with you? Suppose yet another Canadian who hates the Conservatives for no logical reason.

Bottom line, how would a Conservative government improve my standard of living?
Oh come on CH, the answer's as plain as the nose on your face - they'd just hand out tax cuts left right and centre to keep people thinking they're doing better under the Tories, just like they always do on a provincial scale.

Never mind they'll sell off all remaining gov't assets, outsource gov't services to their pals in the private sector, and sign onto any 'free trade' deal stuck under their noses regardless of the outcome.

Oh come on CH, the answer's as plain as the nose on your face - they'd just hand out tax cuts left right and centre to keep people thinking they're doing better under the Tories, just like they always do on a provincial scale.

Never mind they'll sell off all remaining gov't assets, outsource gov't services to their pals in the private sector, and sign onto any 'free trade' deal stuck under their noses regardless of the outcome.
Okay!! Count me in!! :rolleyes:

Okay my young friend, please detail exactly what the Conservatives will give the people of this great country if they indeed are elected?

Bottom line, how would a Conservative government improve my standard of living?
I think the editorial in today's Toronto Sun (Nov. 24) says it best:
...does anyone trust the Grits to do what they say they will do anymore? Finally, ask yourself this:
After 12 years of Liberal rule, is our health care system better or worse? Is our justice system more focused on the victims or the accused? Is Canada more united or divided? Is our military stronger or weaker? Is our immigration system well-run and secure? Did the Liberals' $2 billion gun registry reduce urban street crime? Finally, have the Liberals demonstrated that they spend every tax dollar they take in as carefully as they would their own money?
We say judge Liberals by their deeds, not their words. [ie - recent money announcements]:headbang:

Twelve years of Liberal rule is enough. It's time to get rid of them for at least one term so they can get rid of the skeletons in their closets.

I think the editorial in today's Toronto Sun (Nov. 24) says it best:
...does anyone trust the Grits to do what they say they will do anymore? Finally, ask yourself this:
After 12 years of Liberal rule, is our health care system better or worse? Is our justice system more focused on the victims or the accused? Is Canada more united or divided? Is our military stronger or weaker? Is our immigration system well-run and secure? Did the Liberals' $2 billion gun registry reduce urban street crime? Finally, have the Liberals demonstrated that they spend every tax dollar they take in as carefully as they would their own money?
We say judge Liberals by their deeds, not their words. [ie - recent money announcements]:headbang:

Twelve years of Liberal rule is enough. It's time to get rid of them for at least one term so they can get rid of the skeletons in their closets.

The Toronto Sun and for that matter, the Toronto Star are toilet paper. At least quote the National Post or the Globe and Mail. At my university, you cannot cite anything from the Sun or the Star.

Twelve years of Liberal rule is enough. It's time to get rid of them for at least one term so they can get rid of the skeletons in their closets.
I agree wholeheartedly. But neither Steven Harper nor Peter McKay are fit to sit in the PMO. They've proven publicly that they are not at all trustworthy or transparent. The sudden reversal and merger between the two Conservative Parties, the former Alliance and PC Parties, was a backroom hornswaggle of a deal, wherein Peter McKay showed himself publicly to be an unabashed liar by breaking a promise not to merge the two, and Steven Harper showed he was hardly above the sort of high-stakes deal-making and power-brokering he's made it his life's work of wagging a righteous finger at the Liberals for doing.

And we all still remember what the Mulroney years were like, I hope :rolleyes: . Fuck that noise. I'm voting NDP anyway.

I think the editorial in today's Toronto Sun (Nov. 24) says it best:
...does anyone trust the Grits to do what they say they will do anymore? Finally, ask yourself this:
After 12 years of Liberal rule, is our health care system better or worse? Is our justice system more focused on the victims of the accused? Is Canada more united or divided? Is our military stronger or weaker? Is our immigration system well-run and secure? Did the Liberals' $2 billion gun registry reduce urban street crime? Finally, have the Liberals demonstrated that they spend every tax dollar they take in as carefully as they would their own money?
We say judge Liberals by their deeds, not their words. [ie - recent money announcements]:headbang:

Twelve years of Liberal rule is enough. It's time to get rid of them for at least one term so they can get rid of the skeletons in their closets.
Young Plator, please pay attention. I asked you what would the Conservatives do to improve my standard of living.

The Toronto Sun is totally dedicated to their beloved conservatives and they sang the praises of Mike Harris's Tories and what did they give us after 2 terms? User fees, cut services, deregulated hydro (read higher costs), toxic water, toxic food, more people living on the streets, higher tution fees, crisis in education, $40 Billion higher accumulated Provincial debt, frozen minimum wages, less garbage pickups, pot holes in the roads, amalgamation, less worker rights, oh and a shitty tax cut.

The Sun supported Mulroney and love to call the Liberals tax and spend, yet under the Mulroney Tories, the National Debt more than doubled and in their last year in office, they were running a $42 Billion DEFICIT. That was after they reduced personal exemptions on the income tax and froze the basic exemption, implimented the GST, sold of profitable government holdings, double digit unemployment, failed Meech, failed Charlettown, Free Trade and mega jobs lost, and because he failed at courting separatists it led to Lucien Bouchard founding the Bloc. Western conservatives became disillusioned and created the Reform Party.

Pray tell young Plator, what will Stephen Harper do for this great country?

I think the editorial in today's Toronto Sun (Nov. 24) says it best:
...does anyone trust the Grits to do what they say they will do anymore? Finally, ask yourself this:
After 12 years of Liberal rule, is our health care system better or worse? Is our justice system more focused on the victims or the accused? Is Canada more united or divided? Is our military stronger or weaker? Is our immigration system well-run and secure? Did the Liberals' $2 billion gun registry reduce urban street crime? Finally, have the Liberals demonstrated that they spend every tax dollar they take in as carefully as they would their own money?
We say judge Liberals by their deeds, not their words. [ie - recent money announcements]:headbang:

Twelve years of Liberal rule is enough. It's time to get rid of them for at least one term so they can get rid of the skeletons in their closets.

I completely agree with what Plator has said here.
That's why I'm voting Green.

What's with the "young Plator" thing?

hmm, I'll be voting NDP and hoping for a Liberal minority. Yes, they've screwed up, but the bottom line is, I will not support any government led by someone that believes in creationism. Essentially, it somes down to Harper and his crackpot ex-reformers.

I say that Ralph Klein should run for the Federal Conservatives. Look what he's done for Alberta. Our Surplus this year is 8 billion dollars. Go King Ralph!!!

Here is how I see it all going down, whenever the election actually happens...

Libertal Minority Government. The Libs lose seats to the NDP, strengthening their position. The Cons fail to make any ground at all in central Canada, And the Bloc sweeps Quebec. The Real unknown factor is in the east; the maritimers, while being socially minded, and thus likely to vote liberal, are also conservative fiscally, and have learned to value a dollar; they are not impresssed by Adscam. That being said, I wouldnt be surprised to see them vote NDP.

Another relative unknown would be Manitoba; typically, they tend to vote a mixture of MPs to parliment; but having prospered briefly under a provincial policy of tax cuts and careful spending, They may ride that wave federally.

I think, when it all comes down, that this will finally be the election when the little guys, the smaller economy provinces, become the kingmakers. It is not tthe loudmouth provinces, like here in Alberta or BC in the west, or Ontario and Quebec in central Canada that truly understands what a Canadian is; its the rest of them. They get to see both sides.

I completely agree with what Plator has said here.
That's why I'm voting Green.
Oh, come on. We all know we want Jack Layton for Prime Minister.

At the least the guy smiles. And I'm talking about a genuine smile, not a Stephen-Harperish-zombie-about-to-eat-your-brains-out smile.

Jack's the only party leader with half a brain. Well, alright, Duceppe too has half a brain, but I'm not particularly independantist. Too bad the two won't cooperate to form a minority government, they'd actually have a full brain between the two of them.:D

Unlike Martin and Harper.:p

I say that Ralph Klein should run for the Federal Conservatives. Look what he's done for Alberta. Our Surplus this year is 8 billion dollars. Go King Ralph!!!
I'm sure sitting over a fortune in oil, and the recent gas prices rising had nothing to do with that 8 billion surplus. :rolleyes:

Ralph Nader for Prime Minister!!!111!11112211!z0rz!lawlsbbqkthxbye.



Seriously though... I mentioned that I would probably vote NDP, to my mother, and she said I was throwing my vote away, and that I might as well not vote.

I personally believe this is a massive problem... what if several thousand 18 year olds heard this? I think its a serious issue for the NDP, that many don't take them seriously. I personally think its due to influence from the states regarding a two party system... everyone sees Liberals and Concervatives... with NDP being teh "evil commiez oh noes!!"

Anyone else?

Seriously though... I mentioned that I would probably vote NDP, to my mother, and she said I was throwing my vote away, and that I might as well not vote.


This has long been a problem, and one reason why the Liberals remain in power. If you keep telling potential NDP voters that the NDP is 'a waste of a vote because they'll never get in', well, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? And who is a potential Dipper going to vote for, if not the NDP? They're not likely to vote Conservative, are they? This is a story that the Liberals have been pushing since the NDP was born, so they can suck away the soft NDP vote.

But as Tommy Douglas said once "The Liberals talk about a stable government but we don’t know how bad the stable is going to smell."

Voting NDP is NOT throwing your vote away, especially with the new campaign financing rules. Every vote for any party that gets over 4% of the popular vote counts. It counts because your party gets campaign money, it counts because it says you prefer a different party in power, it counts because it elects MP that influence the government, and someday it will count because we have elected a prime minister.

if it wasn't for the *urgh* revived fervor for another referendum in Quebec i would vote Bloc. But since they've decided to annoy me again with it, i will probably vote NDP.

I would never vote for the conservatives because *shudders*...

I predict another minority government.. and if, oh-dear-goddess, the Conservatives win.. i am immigrating!

As Rick Mercer said: "A minority Conservative government would have the life span of a mosquito."

It would take you longer to emigrate that it would to get a new government in. A waste of your valuable time, and one less socially progressive person in Canada, which would be a great loss and a darn shame. Besides, where would you go?

Oh, come on. We all know we want Jack Layton for Prime Minister.

At the least the guy smiles. And I'm talking about a genuine smile, not a Stephen-Harperish-zombie-about-to-eat-your-brains-out smile.

Jack's the only party leader with half a brain. Well, alright, Duceppe too has half a brain, but I'm not particularly independantist. Too bad the two won't cooperate to form a minority government, they'd actually have a full brain between the two of them.:D

Unlike Martin and Harper.:pThat's funny. I say I'm voting Green, and you completely ignore them for an NDP push.

I'll admit, NDP is my second choice, but since the party moved into "Jack Layton is God" mode, I'm just not impressed. I don't vote based on party leaders, I never have. I vote based on party policy, because in the end, that's what matters, not the figurehead that takes credit for it.

You show me the NDP party's policy, and we can talk. Until then, I've looked at the Green's policies, and while they're certainly not business as usual, they make enough sense that I think Canadians should take another look.

Oh, and for the person who's mother claimed that you're wasting your vote? Tell her that any vote for a party you don't truly believe in is not only a lie, but is sending tax-dollars to support it. Of course, if she wants to pay people she doesn't really like, I suppose that's her business. But don't make it yours.

But as Tommy Douglas said once "The Liberals talk about a stable government but we don’t know how bad the stable is going to smell."

I HAVE to know where this quote comes from. :p

That's funny. I say I'm voting Green, and you completely ignore them for an NDP push.

I'll admit, NDP is my second choice, but since the party moved into "Jack Layton is God" mode, I'm just not impressed. I don't vote based on party leaders, I never have. I vote based on party policy, because in the end, that's what matters, not the figurehead that takes credit for it.

You show me the NDP party's policy, and we can talk. Until then, I've looked at the Green's policies, and while they're certainly not business as usual, they make enough sense that I think Canadians should take another look.

Oh, and for the person who's mother claimed that you're wasting your vote? Tell her that any vote for a party you don't truly believe in is not only a lie, but is sending tax-dollars to support it. Of course, if she wants to pay people she doesn't really like, I suppose that's her business. But don't make it yours.

I thought I was responding to the poster whose mother told them that voting for the NDP 'was throwing away their vote'. You'll notice that the person I quoted was Artitsa, not you. I didn't respond to your post at all. However, I have nothing against the Greens, although I note that in the last election, the Sierra club threw their support behind the NDP, not the Green party, and the biggest reason I have to vote Green is their environmental policies. I don't vote for personalities either - if that were the case, I'd have voted for Steven Hurdle in the last federal election. He's a friend of mine who ran for the Greens here on Vancouver Island. But just being my friend isn't enough to get my vote either.

I can email you the NDP party policy, or if you prefer, an article from the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives that describes their preference for the NDP platform over that of the other parties.

What's with the "young Plator" thing?
Plator is younger than me, hence the "young Playor" comments.

hmm, I'll be voting NDP and hoping for a Liberal minority. Yes, they've screwed up, but the bottom line is, I will not support any government led by someone that believes in creationism. Essentially, it somes down to Harper and his crackpot ex-reformers.
I'll be voting Liberal and hoping for a majority. That will be the end of Stephen Harper's fantasy. I do believe that a Liberal minority would also cause a leadership change for the Conservatives.

I thought I was responding to the poster whose mother told them that voting for the NDP 'was throwing away their vote'. You'll notice that the person I quoted was Artitsa, not you. I didn't respond to your post at all.
Nor I to yours, so I'm not sure what this is about.

I can email you the NDP party policy, or if you prefer, an article from the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives that describes their preference for the NDP platform over that of the other parties.
Links are preferred if you have them, thanks. After all, might as well let everybody in on the fun.

Nor I to yours, so I'm not sure what this is about. DOH!!! <bangs head on keyboard>

Links are preferred if you have them, thanks. After all, might as well let everybody in on the fun.

Unfortunately, the dumbasses running the NDP website don't have them up yet. I'll post them when they're there. I sent them a nasty note reminding them to update the frigging site.

All I can say is I hope that the Canadian people hand the Liberals a majority government and the Conservatives and at this point the NDP their head on a platter.

While I do agree with many NDP policies, the way they of all people have went about this, is nothing less than embarrassing. They should be ashamed of themselves. Alining themselves with the Conservatives, man, who'd of ever thought. Shame on the NDP, they should know better. We expect this kind of bullshit from the Conservatives, but not the NDP.

All I can say is I hope that the Canadian people hand the Liberals a majority government and the Conservatives and at this point the NDP their head on a platter.

While I do agree with many NDP policies, the way they of all people have went about this, is nothing less than embarrassing. They should be ashamed of themselves. Alining themselves with the Conservatives, man, who'd of ever thought. Shame on the NDP, they should know better. We expect this kind of bullshit from the Conservatives, but not the NDP.

So you're saying that the NDP are never allowed to lose confidence in the Liberals?

All I can say is I hope that the Canadian people hand the Liberals a majority government and the Conservatives and at this point the NDP their head on a platter.

While I do agree with many NDP policies, the way they of all people have went about this, is nothing less than embarrassing. They should be ashamed of themselves. Alining themselves with the Conservatives, man, who'd of ever thought. Shame on the NDP, they should know better. We expect this kind of bullshit from the Conservatives, but not the NDP.

I haven't been keeping with the news lately. Got a CBC or Globe and Mail link for this?

DOH!!! <bangs head on keyboard>



Unfortunately, the dumbasses running the NDP website don't have them up yet. I'll post them when they're there. I sent them a nasty note reminding them to update the frigging site.



Sooooooooooooooooo.... you're saying that we should trust the country to people who can't even manage to keep up a website?

:p :D

I haven't been keeping with the news lately. Got a CBC or Globe and Mail link for this?
First page of the globe and mail today: Opposition Parties to topple Government. The 3 opposition parties are going to back a conservative motion of non-confidence monday.

So, yeah, the NDP has allied himself with the Alliance to topple the government.

Edit: Globe and Mail linky (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051125/ELECT25/TPNational/TopStories)

I haven't been keeping with the news lately. Got a CBC or Globe and Mail link for this?

Stephi seems to be saying that because the NDP have decided that they have lost confidence in the government, they are working with the Conservatives.

Note that as an opposition party, the only way to show their loss of confidence is to either vote against a budget vote (automatic confidence vote) or to create a matter of confidence. As all three opposition parties have now claimed to have lost confidence in the Liberal government, they will all vote to bring the house down on the next vote of confidence.

Stephi seems to be saying that because the NDP have decided that they have lost confidence in the government, they are working with the Conservatives.

Note that as an opposition party, the only way to show their loss of confidence is to either vote against a budget vote (automatic confidence vote) or to create a matter of confidence. As all three opposition parties have now claimed to have lost confidence in the Liberal government, they will all vote to bring the house down on the next vote of confidence.
Which is scheduled for monday.

Stephi seems to be saying that because the NDP have decided that they have lost confidence in the government, they are working with the Conservatives.

Note that as an opposition party, the only way to show their loss of confidence is to either vote against a budget vote (automatic confidence vote) or to create a matter of confidence. As all three opposition parties have now claimed to have lost confidence in the Liberal government, they will all vote to bring the house down on the next vote of confidence.

Yeah, a somewhat disingenuous use of the word 'aligned', but thanks tothe link provided by East Canuck, at least I understand the statement.

The Toronto Sun and for that matter, the Toronto Star are toilet paper. At least quote the National Post or the Globe and Mail. At my university, you cannot cite anything from the Sun or the Star.
The majority of voters in this country happen to read the Sun or the Star and are not snobby university students. Keep Coming Back.

Young Plator, please pay attention. I asked you what would the Conservatives do to improve my standard of living.

The Toronto Sun is totally dedicated to their beloved conservatives and they sang the praises of Mike Harris's Tories and what did they give us after 2 terms? User fees, cut services, deregulated hydro (read higher costs), toxic water, toxic food, more people living on the streets, higher tution fees, crisis in education, $40 Billion higher accumulated Provincial debt, frozen minimum wages, less garbage pickups, pot holes in the roads, amalgamation, less worker rights, oh and a shitty tax cut.

The Sun supported Mulroney and love to call the Liberals tax and spend, yet under the Mulroney Tories, the National Debt more than doubled and in their last year in office, they were running a $42 Billion DEFICIT. That was after they reduced personal exemptions on the income tax and froze the basic exemption, implimented the GST, sold of profitable government holdings, double digit unemployment, failed Meech, failed Charlettown, Free Trade and mega jobs lost, and because he failed at courting separatists it led to Lucien Bouchard founding the Bloc. Western conservatives became disillusioned and created the Reform Party.

Pray tell young Plator, what will Stephen Harper do for this great country?
He won't spend millions and millions of dollars on a corrupt campaign to bring Quebec into the fold. He'll streamline our health care system, cutting down on long waiting periods for people with life threatening diseases. Most of all by being elected he'll show the Liberals that they can no longer ride on the laurels of scare tactics and maybe they might gain back some humility and stop the lying and corruption when they are re-elected.

Which is scheduled for monday.
Yeah, I couldn't remember the date.

Note that all three opposition parties voted for the NDP's alternative proposal last week as well, but the Liberal's chose not to negotiate. Which was their right, since it wasn't worded specifically as a non-confidence vote.

And we all still remember what the Mulroney years were like, I hope :rolleyes: . Fuck that noise. I'm voting NDP anyway.

I'd vote for NDP if they had a better leader. How about Bob Rae. Now he's the man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He won't spend millions and millions of dollars on a corrupt campaign to bring Quebec into the fold. He'll streamline our health care system, cutting down on long waiting periods for people with life threatening diseases. Most of all by being elected he'll show the Liberals that they can no longer ride on the laurels of scare tactics and maybe they might gain back some humility and stop the lying and corruption when they are re-elected.

I fail to see how Harper will do anything to improve the health care system for the average Canadian. All he'll do is set up a parallel private system that competes with the public system, drawing resources away from it.

The majority of voters in this country happen to read the Sun or the Star and are not snobby university students. Keep Coming Back.

Correction. The Toronto Sun and Toronto Star are read by Torontonians, with a minimal readership from the rest of Canada.

The majority of voters in this country happen to read the Sun or the Star and are not snobby university students. Keep Coming Back.

Pssssst. The Toronto Sun and the Star are only sold in Toronto. The majority of voters in Canada don't live in Toronto.

The majority of voters in this country happen to read the Sun or the Star and are not snobby university students. Keep Coming Back.

Thats quite unfortunate. What the hell is this Keep coming back business anyways? Source please? Whats this "Snobby" university students business? Did you not goto University? Are you not old enough to goto University? Did the Conservatives running your area raise the tuition fees too high to go?

So I learned something interesting about Canada's Green Party today... they are actually extremely different from other green-parties around the world. They believe in the utilization of Capitalism to further improve the environment. I was always taught that Green Parties pushed the Environment, then Humans, then the Economy, where as the defining piece of Capitalism bring Economy first, then Humans, then Environment... completely backwards I say!

Still gonna vote for NDP.

Correction. The Toronto Sun and Toronto Star are read by Torontonians, with a minimal readership from the rest of Canada.
The company that owns the Sun also has papers in most major cities in Canada - i.e. - Ottawa Sun; Vancouver Sun; etc. The Star's owner also has papers in various cities throughout Canada. So they're not the same name but the same format and read by the same kinds of people. Thank you very much!!:rolleyes:

He won't spend millions and millions of dollars on a corrupt campaign to bring Quebec into the fold.
You don't want Quebec in the fold?

He'll streamline our health care system, cutting down on long waiting periods for people with life threatening diseases.
You mean like more privatized health care? Look at the US health care system and see what you don't get for your money.

Most of all by being elected he'll show the Liberals that they can no longer ride on the laurels of scare tactics and maybe they might gain back some humility and stop the lying and corruption when they are re-elected.
And Harper has tons of humility? He is probably the most arrogant Conservative leader I have ever seen at the federal level. At the provincial level it was Mike Harris.

Harper is just too right wing for this country. Harper and Bush would get along just great especially when Canada starts sending troops to Iraq.

Thats quite unfortunate. What the hell is this Keep coming back business anyways? Source please? Whats this "Snobby" university students business? Did you not goto University? Are you not old enough to goto University? Did the Conservatives running your area raise the tuition fees too high to go?.
I went to university and college many moons ago. Snobby university referred to you putting down, to use a university word, what the proletariat of the country read. Source of Keep Coming Back is a great Amercian named Bill Wilson (circa 1935). Actually I went to university in Montreal when there was a tuition freeze and it was the Liberal Provincial government that removed it.

You don't want Quebec in the fold?


You mean like more privatized health care? Look at the US health care system and see what you don't get for your money.


And Harper has tons of humility? He is probably the most arrogant Conservative leader I have ever seen at the federal level. At the provincial level it was Mike Harris.

Harper is just too right wing for this country. Harper and Bush would get along just great especially when Canada starts sending troops to Iraq.

CH my older yet youthful looking friend I want Quebec in the fold but not if we have to buy their votes. They were more pissed of at AdScam then the rest of us. Harper ain't going to privatize health care. But it might be better managed if we had private companies running things like MRIs. And once again where the hell are all these troops located that we're going to send to Iraq?????

CH my older yet youthful looking friend I want Quebec in the fold but not if we have to buy their votes. They were more pissed of at AdScam then the rest of us. Harper ain't going to privatize health care. But it might be better managed if we had private companies running things like MRIs. And once again where the hell are all these troops located that we're going to send to Iraq?????
Private companies shouldn't be running things like MRI's. Private companies do janitorial work in my area and people going to hospitals have been getting sick due to unsanitary conditions.

All he'll do is set up a parallel private system that competes with the public system, drawing resources away from it.

uh, Its been established that we already have that. There are private clinics in Quebec; Paul Martins family doctor runs one. OR was that Chretiens?

Private companies shouldn't be running things like MRI's. Private companies do janitorial work in my area and people going to hospitals have been getting sick due to unsanitary conditions.
One has nothing to do with the other.

One has nothing to do with the other.
So was the plague and rats....

I'd vote for NDP if they had a better leader. How about Bob Rae. Now he's the man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He isn't just 'the man', he's quite a stand-up kinda guy. Completely undeserving of the enmity of Ontario voters in the 90s, I'll add.

Fucking hell, you'd move just because you don't like a minority government? What the fuck is wrong with you? Suppose yet another Canadian who hates the Conservatives for no logical reason.

:rolleyes:
nothing is the fuck wrong with me. first my statement was if there is a conservative government i am immigrating. i would prefer a minority government. i think i would prefer any government BUT conservative, not because i hate them but because i do not share their views on many issues.

and perhaps i should add i am immigrating anyway?

*note to the chocolate goddess re: Jolt - How right you are. Here's the post I've been trying to deliver for the last ten minutes using two different browsers:

While I do agree with many NDP policies, the way they of all people have went about this, is nothing less than embarrassing. They should be ashamed of themselves. Alining themselves with the Conservatives, man, who'd of ever thought. Shame on the NDP, they should know better. We expect this kind of bullshit from the Conservatives, but not the NDP.
While most Liberals agree with NDP policies - even Liberal policy-makers who have cribbed nearly all of their major policies from the NDP over the last 40 years, the usual watering-down of same notwithstanding - Paul Martin set the stage for this last re-alignment and non-confidence stand-off by rejecting the agreement he made with Jack Layton and refusing to continue bilateral co-operation in the House.

What was Jack and his caucus supposed to do? Bend over and take it?

Only in Ralph Goodale's darkest fantasies. Martin was deliberate, make no mistake; he knew what the repercussions of his decision to no longer play ball with the NDP would entail. In short, don't go shedding one bloody tear for the man who set himself up for a non-confidence vote in the hopes of winning a majority mandate the second time 'round.

And more importantly, don't give that fount of cynicism the chance to do so - fuck that noise. I ain't gonna get conned into 'strategically' voting Liberal again. Anyone who thinks Canada needs yet another majority government of any sort oughtta get their heads checked.

Sorry Steph, but it's true. I don't wanna return to the days of governments ruling over us with impugnity. And seeing as you're all so hopped up on the election, can you tell me exactly how a Liberal majority gov't is going to help me, you or anybody else? 'Cause all I see in a majority are the negatives.

Enlighten me. Enlighten us. How is handing Paul Martin the opportunity to rule with no checks and balances a good thing?

Hmmmmmm?

*Sorry the message wasn't really directed atcha, Chocolate.

:rolleyes:
nothing is the fuck wrong with me. first my statement was if there is a conservative government i am immigrating. i would prefer a minority government. i think i would prefer any government BUT conservative, not because i hate them but because i do not share their views on many issues.

and perhaps i should add i am immigrating anyway?
Actually you would have to emmigrate in order to become an immigrant. ;)

He isn't just 'the man', he's quite a stand-up kinda guy. Completely undeserving of the enmity of Ontario voters in the 90s, I'll add.
Yeah Rae got a bum rap in the 90s. He got elected during a recession and inherited a mess from the Peterson and his corrupt Liberals. Bring back RAE!!!!!!!!

The company that owns the Sun also has papers in most major cities in Canada - i.e. - Ottawa Sun; Vancouver Sun; etc. The Star's owner also has papers in various cities throughout Canada. So they're not the same name but the same format and read by the same kinds of people. Thank you very much!!:rolleyes:

A) We were talking about the Toronto papers.

B) The Star in Toronto only.

C) You mean the owners have that much editorial control over the content of their newspaper synidicate? Mercy me! And here they've been denying that all this time...

The Sun isn't nicknamed 'The Scum' for no reason at all, Plator. It really is a rag, designed to deliver maximum 'feel-bad' news when their pals in the Tory party (Federal or Provincial) don't always get their way, doubly so if they're sitting in opposition. I used to read it on the way to work on the subway, because it was the only news available in tabloid format at the time (reading broadsheet on a subway car is an exercise in futility). I eventually became sick-at-heart from the daily drubbing of anything that didn't lick the soles of the somehow greater-than-human Conservatives.

What boils my buns is that in all the markets it's published in, Sun newspapers try positioning themselves as the de facto newspaper of the blue-collar segment of the population, witness the page 3 girls, colorized comics, and a Sports section as large as the rest of the paper combined. They present a highly right-wing skew to their editorials and political analysis - Lubor J. Zink, one of their longtime contributors, was for decades very closely associated with the World Anti-Bolshevik League. They harbor elitists like Barbara Amiel and David Frum, and try to pass themselves off as being 'the' voice of the people.

They printed an editorial a few years back, by Christina Blizzard, who was decrying Employment Insurance granting moneys for job re-training for people living as common-law spouses, as well as what she called 'welfare cheats', i.e. people in common-law relationships who had to resort to accepting public assistance. At the time, I was busting my back trying to find work after being laid off, having taken advantage of said re-training program, while my significant other had run out of EI premiums while desperately searching for their own employment situation, and had to apply for welfare for a time.

Blizzard made a lot of baseless assumptions, the sort of baseless assumptions made by people who choose to look down their fully-employed, salaried, medical/dental-benefited noses at their fellows who are extremely unhappily unemployed and who are doing everything in their limited power to change that situation. And loudmouthed know-it-alls like her were hardly - HARDLY - being of any constructive help whatever.

My significant other was in tears for fear we'd have to separate in order to satisfy the mean-spirited Harrisite Tories here in Ontario. In order for us to surmount our employment dilemmna we were looking at having to live in an even greater level of squalor than we'd already experienced.

I took the time to write Ms. Blizzard a long and detailed letter, wherein I described the circumstances the two of us were facing, how we fit her profile to a 'T', and underscored for her in no uncertain terms just how wide of the mark she had been in painting us with such a broad, albeit narrow, brush.

Ms. Blizzard, is, among other things, a self-avowed Christian. I went to some lengths to describe just how her published views and opinions are at odds with her professed spiritual belief system of choice. And you know? She took a long sabbatical not long after I sent her that message. She never printed a retraction, an apology, or recanted her hard-hearted bullshit, but I can't help but feel that my missive might have given her pause to reflect on all the hateful bile that flies off her fingertips with the ease of a neighbourhood coffe-klatch maven over a cup of Nabob.

So I say this Plator; read whatever the Hell suits you, just bear in mind that if it were up to the editorialists at the Toronto Scum, there'd be a Helluva lot more insecurity, fear, loathing and soul-destroying unhappiness in this nation of ours. Never ever lose sight of that. And never lose sight of the fact that they feed on unhappiness. Like negative-emotion vampires.

I check out the Toronto Star and the Sun line of newspapers (at canoe) every now and again. Dobbs, Blizzard hasn't chilled out any over the years, let me tell you. I will say that not every Sun columnist is a jackass - there's at least one columnist at the Winnipeg Sun (Laurie Mustard?) that I enjoy, but there are quite a few that make me froth at the mouth. On the other hand, I really respect Chantal Hebert at the Star. She does a very good column on politics, even though she and I don't always see eye to eye.

I took the time to write Ms. Blizzard a long and detailed letter, wherein I described the circumstances the two of us were facing, how we fit her profile to a 'T', and underscored for her in no uncertain terms just how wide of the mark she had been in painting us with such a broad, albeit narrow, brush.
I can relate to this, big time!! Many moons ago, Linda Leatherdill (more like leatherlungs :D ) (name changed to protect the guilty) wrote a scathing article about unions. I felt compelled to reply in a "personal" letter to her.

Much to my surprise and chagrin, the following week, she dedicated a column regarding my letter. There at the top of the column, was my first and last name and where I lived. Needless to say, my last name is not Smith, so if anyone cracked open a phone book, they would know exactly who I was.

At any rate, to make a long story longer, she went on in the article to further castigate unions and falsely tried to attribute certain claims about my thinking, and ideologies. I talked to my union lawyer friend and he assured me that I could sue her, but suggested to just let it go, which I did.

Yeah, the Sun certainly is not for the middle of the road taxpayers such as myself. The Sun detests unions and the ironic thing is that without union members buying the Sun, their readership would probably be half of what it is.

Ms. Blizzard, is, among other things, a self-avowed Christian.
Another wonderful lady. :rolleyes:

So I say this Plator; read whatever the Hell suits you, just bear in mind that if it were up to the editorialists at the Toronto Scum, there'd be a Helluva lot more insecurity, fear, loathing and soul-destroying unhappiness in this nation of ours. Never ever lose sight of that. And never lose sight of the fact that they feed on unhappiness. Like negative-emotion vampires.
Amen and hallelujah!!

I really should not get involved in thsi because all of you seem to be having a fine old time, but here goes.

1) Why is Mulroney lambasted over the deficit while Bob Rae is "poor old Bob, he was elected during a recession"?

2) Why will tax breaks ruin our economy?

3) Why shouldn't the Conservatives continue the policy of ignoring privatised health care in Canada that the Liberals started under Jean Chretien?

4) Why are people from Ontario East not offended like Westerners and Quebecers about the theft of money by the Liberal party to a) buy their votes or b) line their party coffers?

5) Which policies of the Conservatives are you most offended by? Which of the NDPs? Which of the Liberals?

I really should not get involved in thsi because all of you seem to be having a fine old time, but here goes.

1) Why is Mulroney lambasted over the deficit while Bob Rae is "poor old Bob, he was elected during a recession"?

2) Why will tax breaks ruin our economy?

3) Why shouldn't the Conservatives continue the policy of ignoring privatised health care in Canada that the Liberals started under Jean Chretien?

4) Why are people from Ontario East not offended like Westerners and Quebecers about the theft of money by the Liberal party to a) buy their votes or b) line their party coffers?

5) Which policies of the Conservatives are you most offended by? Which of the NDPs? Which of the Liberals?


1) There are both Mulroney supporters and detractors as well as Rae supporters and detractors in this thread. If you think that Rae is universally loved in here, you didn't see the posts by Stephistan a few days back.

2) Tax cuts may not ruin the economy, but they will certainly slow the rate at which we are paying off our national debt. Many of us would like to see that debt get smaller still, and quit having to pay so much interest against it. Do you know how much of our taxes go into paying the interest on that thing?

3) I personally do not support either the Liberal nor the Conservative health care plans. Why in hell didn't the Libs take Romanow's recommendations if they were going to pay him to make a study? As far as I can tell, parallel private systems simply steal resources (doctors etc) from the public system, making the public system worse.

4) I think you'll find that Ontarioans are offended by Adscam as much as anyone else. They just don't think it is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, unlike the Bloc and the Cons.

5) I dislike the Conservative social policies, I dislike their tax policies, I dislike the fact that their 2004 budget platform left nothing to pay down the federal debt with, and may very well have resulted in a deficit. I dislike the way the Liberals pay only lip service to important social, health, environmental, and military issues. I dislike the NDP platform on the military - I feel the NDP should be more supportive of our peacekeepers. While their last budget platform had more money for the military, they didn't recognize the need for more infrastructure and equipment funding - they focused on troop pay and housing, which I admit are also important.

Why don't you tell us what you think? Everyone has heard what I think about 6 times in this thread.

I'll answer a couple of your questions. Firstly, it's not a matter of why shouldn't the Conservatives continue the policy but that they wouldn't. These new Conservatives are under the leadership of a...less than capable man. He's about as bad as the American "neo-cons".

Anyways, to the NDPers, its never gonna happen. ;)

Lastly, if I was old enough to vote (I'm only 16), I'd be voting for the Liberals. Gomery or whatever the Justice's name was said it was under Chretién's government that the scandal took place and Martin had no blame placed on him. So Martin is good in my books. That and the Liberals are the lesser of the evils.

The Sun isn't nicknamed 'The Scum' for no reason at all, Plator. It really is a rag, designed to deliver maximum 'feel-bad' news when their pals in the Tory party (Federal or Provincial) don't always get their way, doubly so if they're sitting in opposition. I used to read it on the way to work on the subway, because it was the only news available in tabloid format at the time (reading broadsheet on a subway car is an exercise in futility). I eventually became sick-at-heart from the daily drubbing of anything that didn't lick the soles of the somehow greater-than-human Conservatives.

What boils my buns is that in all the markets it's published in, Sun newspapers try positioning themselves as the de facto newspaper of the blue-collar segment of the population, witness the page 3 girls, colorized comics, and a Sports section as large as the rest of the paper combined. They present a highly right-wing skew to their editorials and political analysis - Lubor J. Zink, one of their longtime contributors, was for decades very closely associated with the World Anti-Bolshevik League. They harbor elitists like Barbara Amiel and David Frum, and try to pass themselves off as being 'the' voice of the people.

They printed an editorial a few years back, by Christina Blizzard, who was decrying Employment Insurance granting moneys for job re-training for people living as common-law spouses, as well as what she called 'welfare cheats', i.e. people in common-law relationships who had to resort to accepting public assistance. At the time, I was busting my back trying to find work after being laid off, having taken advantage of said re-training program, while my significant other had run out of EI premiums while desperately searching for their own employment situation, and had to apply for welfare for a time.

Blizzard made a lot of baseless assumptions, the sort of baseless assumptions made by people who choose to look down their fully-employed, salaried, medical/dental-benefited noses at their fellows who are extremely unhappily unemployed and who are doing everything in their limited power to change that situation. And loudmouthed know-it-alls like her were hardly - HARDLY - being of any constructive help whatever.

My significant other was in tears for fear we'd have to separate in order to satisfy the mean-spirited Harrisite Tories here in Ontario. In order for us to surmount our employment dilemmna we were looking at having to live in an even greater level of squalor than we'd already experienced.

I took the time to write Ms. Blizzard a long and detailed letter, wherein I described the circumstances the two of us were facing, how we fit her profile to a 'T', and underscored for her in no uncertain terms just how wide of the mark she had been in painting us with such a broad, albeit narrow, brush.

Ms. Blizzard, is, among other things, a self-avowed Christian. I went to some lengths to describe just how her published views and opinions are at odds with her professed spiritual belief system of choice. And you know? She took a long sabbatical not long after I sent her that message. She never printed a retraction, an apology, or recanted her hard-hearted bullshit, but I can't help but feel that my missive might have given her pause to reflect on all the hateful bile that flies off her fingertips with the ease of a neighbourhood coffe-klatch maven over a cup of Nabob.

So I say this Plator; read whatever the Hell suits you, just bear in mind that if it were up to the editorialists at the Toronto Scum, there'd be a Helluva lot more insecurity, fear, loathing and soul-destroying unhappiness in this nation of ours. Never ever lose sight of that. And never lose sight of the fact that they feed on unhappiness. Like negative-emotion vampires.

See this is how us Conservatives feel about all the left-wing newspapers. But I forgot that of course all those on the left are always right and deserve to always be in power no matter what they do or say. I should add I supose that of course the left is Canada and that all Conservatives are of course the scum of the earth that want to feast on the blood of people of different colour. I mean after all the left just loves to help people facing genocide and those living under dictatorships....oh wait I forgot about Rwanda....oh and I suppose the Congo too...oh can't forget about Sudan too....better add North Korea too before I forget. Yep the left has turned Canada into a wonderful place for Canadians to believe that they are the best in the world and especially better then those blood thirsty Americans.

ALL HAIL THE LEFT!! THE ONLY PEOPLE ENTITLED TO POWER!!

See this is how us Conservatives feel about all the left-wing newspapers. But I forgot that of course all those on the left are always right and deserve to always be in power no matter what they do or say. I should add I supose that of course the left is Canada and that all Conservatives are of course the scum of the earth that want to feast on the blood of people of different colour. I mean after all the left just loves to help people facing genocide and those living under dictatorships....oh wait I forgot about Rwanda....oh and I suppose the Congo too...oh can't forget about Sudan too....better add North Korea too before I forget. Yep the left has turned Canada into a wonderful place for Canadians to believe that they are the best in the world and especially better then those blood thirsty Americans.

ALL HAIL THE LEFT!! THE ONLY PEOPLE ENTITLED TO POWER!!

Which columnists angered you with their opinion? What do newspapers have to do with military decisions? What does any of that have to do with the UN vetoing additional peacekeepers to Rwanda?

What do you feel is wrong with Canada? Take a deep breath, and tell us what you would do, and why, to make it better.

See this is how us Conservatives feel about all the left-wing newspapers. But I forgot that of course all those on the left are always right and deserve to always be in power no matter what they do or say. I should add I supose that of course the left is Canada and that all Conservatives are of course the scum of the earth that want to feast on the blood of people of different colour. I mean after all the left just loves to help people facing genocide and those living under dictatorships....oh wait I forgot about Rwanda....oh and I suppose the Congo too...oh can't forget about Sudan too....better add North Korea too before I forget. Yep the left has turned Canada into a wonderful place for Canadians to believe that they are the best in the world and especially better then those blood thirsty Americans.

ALL HAIL THE LEFT!! THE ONLY PEOPLE ENTITLED TO POWER!!
Now what had I been saying about fear & loathing - ?


Nice rant, btw. What part of my message were you responding to, or did you quote it just for shits and giggles?

Now what had I been saying about fear & loathing - ?


Nice rant, btw. What part of my message were you responding to, or did you quote it just for shits and giggles?

I thought it was good rant, a rant a day keeps the doctor away. Now the question is, do I believe anything I wrote? Some what, for the military operations I did. But as for caring that the Sun or another newspaper has a policital leaning...no. I support freedom and democracy so you want to run a newspaper that thinks liberals are evil bastards or that conservatives are murderers go right ahead because it is my right not to have to buy your paper. Besides, I can go online and read the same news for free! Well....not really for free because I have to pay for the internet but in the long run it is cheaper....I think.

Unbelievable! Have none of you noticed how well off Canada is doing? What is up with no confidence in the Liberal party? You know, the party that brought us balanced budgets, no longer run deficit spending, The horror, they're even paying down our national debt so my kids won't be on the hook for it for years to come.

The NDP? What on earth do they hope to accomplish by this? It's not like they stand a hope in hell of forming a government, minority or otherwise.

So, we are either going to have a conservative government or a Liberal one, those are the choices boys and girls and if you want to stake the farm on it, well may I recommend Vegas.

The Liberals are the ONLY party that any Canadian with a freaking clue can want to run the government. Ad-Scam had NOTHING to do with Paul Martin nor the current Liberal party. There is no conspiracy here, go put on your tin-foil hats and let the people who know what their doing (Liberals) run the country.

Unbelievable! Have none of you noticed how well off Canada is doing? What is up with no confidence in the Liberal party? You know, the party that brought us balanced budgets, no longer run deficit spending, The horror, they're even paying down our national debt so my kids won't be on the hook for it for years to come.


Yes our budgets might be balanced, mainly because the government is taxing the living crap out of those who work and not do anything with the money.

Last time I checked, when we pay a tax to the government, we expect something in return. This could be anything from a new social program, military, or highway maintaince.

Just because we have a huge surplus does not the mean the economy is great. It just means the government is taking away our money and keeping it; or at least using it pay off severance pays to some guy in the Canadian mint who also used our money to buy gum.

If Paul Martin really wants the other parties to actually have confidence, maybe he should start spending the money instead of hoarding it. I wouldn't mind if our 401 highways didn't suck ass, or if we had more police in Toronto. Heck, I just love the idea that Paul Martin actually wants to sue the American Gun companies for crimes commited by Canadians in Ontario, using our money of course.

There is also the whole healthcare thing, where Paul Martin disencourages private healthcare yet goes to a private one in Quebec. There is also that whole 'safe crack kit site' BS happening in Toronto.

And last time I checked, Gun Registry is still a giant money sinkhole.

This is why I want Paul Martin out of office. Not because of AdScam or 'he made a balanced budget'. For those idiots living in Alberta who thinks Ontario votes liberal no matter what; we voted conservatives in the past. The difference between Stephen Harper and Mike Harris was Harris didn't go around saying "ABORTION SHOULD BE ILLEGAL, ABSITENCE IS KING, GAYS ARE A MYTH." Love or hate Harris, he did actually follow his promises.

The Prime Minister of Canada represents a good majority (or largest minority) of Canada. Harper doesn't represent either.

Although I'll still vote for Harper, mainly because I iknow for a fact that Harper, if he wins minority, would never pull the religious bullshit since he would be gone right away. I'm all in for getting rid of social programs like Welfare or cutting them down and having private healthcare, which is why I am voting conservative next election.

The Sun isn't nicknamed 'The Scum' for no reason at all, Plator. It really is a rag, designed to deliver maximum 'feel-bad' news when their pals in the Tory party (Federal or Provincial) don't always get their way, doubly so if they're sitting in opposition. I used to read it on the way to work on the subway, because it was the only news available in tabloid format at the time (reading broadsheet on a subway car is an exercise in futility). I eventually became sick-at-heart from the daily drubbing of anything that didn't lick the soles of the somehow greater-than-human Conservatives.

What boils my buns is that in all the markets it's published in, Sun newspapers try positioning themselves as the de facto newspaper of the blue-collar segment of the population, witness the page 3 girls, colorized comics, and a Sports section .
Hey they moved those hot chicks to the back pages. Probably due to complaints from Liberal pussies. :rolleyes: :mad: :p

I check out the Toronto Star and the Sun line of newspapers (at canoe) every now and again. Dobbs, Blizzard hasn't chilled out any over the years, let me tell you. I will say that not every Sun columnist is a jackass - there's at least one columnist at the Winnipeg Sun (Laurie Mustard?) that I enjoy, but there are quite a few that make me froth at the mouth. On the other hand, I really respect Chantal Hebert at the Star. She does a very good column on politics, even though she and I don't always see eye to eye.
Lorie Goldstein is pretty good too!!!!

I can relate to this, big time!! Many moons ago, Linda Leatherdill (more like leatherlungs :D ) (name changed to protect the guilty) wrote a scathing article about unions. I felt compelled to reply in a "personal" letter to her.

Much to my surprise and chagrin, the following week, she dedicated a column regarding my letter. There at the top of the column, was my first and last name and where I lived. Needless to say, my last name is not Smith, so if anyone cracked open a phone book, they would know exactly who I was.

At any rate, to make a long story longer, she went on in the article to further castigate unions and falsely tried to attribute certain claims about my thinking, and ideologies. I talked to my union lawyer friend and he assured me that I could sue her, but suggested to just let it go, which I did.

Yeah, the Sun certainly is not for the middle of the road taxpayers such as myself. The Sun detests unions and the ironic thing is that without union members buying the Sun, their readership would probably be half of what it is.


Another wonderful lady. :rolleyes:


Amen and hallelujah!!
That's pretty cool CH my older yet youthful looking friend. If you saved it I'd like to take a look at it. I once wrote a letter to the editor for a job I was in and they cut me up. It was pretty funny. :)

4) Why are people from Ontario East not offended like Westerners and Quebecers about the theft of money by the Liberal party to a) buy their votes or b) line their party coffers?

I am!!!!!!!!! I said it before and I'll say it again:

From Fiberals to Bald Faced Liars

I'll answer a couple of your questions. Firstly, it's not a matter of why shouldn't the Conservatives continue the policy but that they wouldn't. These new Conservatives are under the leadership of a...less than capable man. He's about as bad as the American "neo-cons".

Anyways, to the NDPers, its never gonna happen. ;)

Lastly, if I was old enough to vote (I'm only 16), I'd be voting for the Liberals. Gomery or whatever the Justice's name was said it was under Chretién's government that the scandal took place and Martin had no blame placed on him. So Martin is good in my books. That and the Liberals are the lesser of the evils.
That's why you are not allowed to vote.

I am!!!!!!!!! I said it before and I'll say it again:

From Fiberals to Bald Faced Liars


Yes. You are very good at repeating childish, unsupported insults at the same time as you call Liberal supporters the brainwashed ones.....

:rolleyes:

See this is how us Conservatives feel about all the left-wing newspapers. But I forgot that of course all those on the left are always right and deserve to always be in power no matter what they do or say. I should add I supose that of course the left is Canada and that all Conservatives are of course the scum of the earth that want to feast on the blood of people of different colour. I mean after all the left just loves to help people facing genocide and those living under dictatorships....oh wait I forgot about Rwanda....oh and I suppose the Congo too...oh can't forget about Sudan too....better add North Korea too before I forget. Yep the left has turned Canada into a wonderful place for Canadians to believe that they are the best in the world and especially better then those blood thirsty Americans.

ALL HAIL THE LEFT!! THE ONLY PEOPLE ENTITLED TO POWER!!

Well you managed to pull in a lurker with this post...

As long as the Conservatives cannot mount an effective political campaign, and as long as they can't come up with a credible leader, then they shall be relegated to the 'Loyal' Opposition.

To make such blanket and shockingly ill-informed statements about Canada's foreign and defense policy when it came/comes to Rwanda (no transport capability to send troops, UN mission enhancement vetoed by US); Congo (again Canada through the UN not that successful because of a certain un-named nation); Sudan (Canada is supporting the African Union, and has even sent LAVs to bolster AU's military strength); North Korea - well what would you suggest Canada does? after all even the US seems unwilling to confront North Korea.

Canada City']Yes our budgets might be balanced, mainly because the government is taxing the living crap out of those who work and not do anything with the money.

Last time I checked, when we pay a tax to the government, we expect something in return. This could be anything from a new social program, military, or highway maintaince.

Just because we have a huge surplus does not the mean the economy is great. It just means the government is taking away our money and keeping it; or at least using it pay off severance pays to some guy in the Canadian mint who also used our money to buy gum.


Right. Of course, the record low unemployment, appreciating dollar, rising GDP, lowering public debt, etc. don't exatly support the notion that our economy is tanking though either. So, which indicator do you want to use to indicate that the economy has worsened?

Please find me one.


If Paul Martin really wants the other parties to actually have confidence, maybe he should start spending the money instead of hoarding it. I wouldn't mind if our 401 highways didn't suck ass, or if we had more police in Toronto. Heck, I just love the idea that Paul Martin actually wants to sue the American Gun companies for crimes commited by Canadians in Ontario, using our money of course.


Right. You want them to become the "Tax and Spend" Liberals that people rightfully complained about...

Plus where on earth does the Federal Goverment have any business in hiring Toronto Cops, or maintaining the 401? Those are municipal and provincial responsibilities. You want to complain that money hasn't been made available for these things? Well look to Provincial and City politicians who put the tax cuts ahead of revenue requirements.

Indeed, you seem to be tryng to have it both ways. Complaining about getting taxed and complaining that money isn't available for services.

There is also the whole healthcare thing, where Paul Martin disencourages private healthcare yet goes to a private one in Quebec. There is also that whole 'safe crack kit site' BS happening in Toronto.

And last time I checked, Gun Registry is still a giant money sinkhole.

This is why I want Paul Martin out of office. Not because of AdScam or 'he made a balanced budget'. For those idiots living in Alberta who thinks Ontario votes liberal no matter what; we voted conservatives in the past. The difference between Stephen Harper and Mike Harris was Harris didn't go around saying "ABORTION SHOULD BE ILLEGAL, ABSITENCE IS KING, GAYS ARE A MYTH." Love or hate Harris, he did actually follow his promises.


Well, so far your case against MArtin has some big holes in it. But I agree with you on why much of Ontario won't vote for Harper.

The Prime Minister of Canada represents a good majority (or largest minority) of Canada. Harper doesn't represent either.


Which is why the Liberals keep winning. The right needs a more universally accepted platform, and until they provide it then they can stop complaining about people voting for other choices.

Although I'll still vote for Harper, mainly because I iknow for a fact that Harper, if he wins minority, would never pull the religious bullshit since he would be gone right away. I'm all in for getting rid of social programs like Welfare or cutting them down and having private healthcare, which is why I am voting conservative next election.

And if he wins a majority? Then what? And Harper will never get rid of welfare. But he just might trash universal health care, and that would be a pity. Yes, it needs reform, but that can be done without the higher costs of privatization.

Canada City']Although I'll still vote for Harper, mainly because I iknow for a fact that Harper, if he wins minority, would never pull the religious bullshit since he would be gone right away. I'm all in for getting rid of social programs like Welfare or cutting them down and having private healthcare, which is why I am voting conservative next election.

Although I'm a Conservative I'll never vote for Harper and the quasi-Reform party he has managed to build... basically I don't trust Harper's politics and his republican leanings, I don't like his pandering to the religious right, I don't like his stated policies towards defense or healthcare, and finally I don't like fact he was willing to deal with the Bloq to try and bing down the government.

Yes. You are very good at repeating childish, unsupported insults at the same time as you call Liberal supporters the brainwashed ones.....

:rolleyes:
Are you trying to become a Senator? :rolleyes:

Are you trying to become a Senator? :rolleyes:

No, I can't match Heatley or Alfredsson, so I'll just watch from the stands....:D

Unbelievable! Have none of you noticed how well off Canada is doing? What is up with no confidence in the Liberal party? You know, the party that brought us balanced budgets, no longer run deficit spending, The horror, they're even paying down our national debt so my kids won't be on the hook for it for years to come.

The NDP? What on earth do they hope to accomplish by this? It's not like they stand a hope in hell of forming a government, minority or otherwise.

So, we are either going to have a conservative government or a Liberal one, those are the choices boys and girls and if you want to stake the farm on it, well may I recommend Vegas.

The Liberals are the ONLY party that any Canadian with a freaking clue can want to run the government. Ad-Scam had NOTHING to do with Paul Martin nor the current Liberal party. There is no conspiracy here, go put on your tin-foil hats and let the people who know what their doing (Liberals) run the country.

So...other than some rather shrill campaigning for the Liberals, what are you trying to say?

If you're trying to say the Liberals are the only ones who are fiscally responsible, that's an unproven assertion.

If you're trying to say the NDP will not win a federal race, well, you're not saying anything that isn't obvious. If that means I have to vote for either the Liberals or the Conservatives, your logic is flawed. Unless you think we need a two party system in Canada, just like the States; we all know how much you like the USA...

If you're trying to say that I "don't have a freaking clue" or that I somehow believe there's a "conspiracy" and I need to wear "a tin-foil hat", might I suggest you get off your high horse.

The NDP? What on earth do they hope to accomplish by this? It's not like they stand a hope in hell of forming a government, minority or otherwise.
Sorry, I refuse to buy into your self-fulfilling prophecy. Please stop trying to sell that bill of goods here. The NDP is regularly in second place in Liberal won ridings. All that's needed is for people to stop being so deathly afraid of the conservatives to vote for their true choice, not their strategic choice, and we could well see, if not an NDP government, an NDP coalition government.

So, we are either going to have a conservative government or a Liberal one, those are the choices boys and girls and if you want to stake the farm on it, well may I recommend Vegas. The chances are good of this happening, but change generally doesn't happen quickly, and was never brought on by cowards. I don't care what a person chooses to vote, but this reasoning you use is disgusting.

The Liberals are the ONLY party that any Canadian with a freaking clue can want to run the government. Ad-Scam had NOTHING to do with Paul Martin nor the current Liberal party. There is no conspiracy here, go put on your tin-foil hats and let the people who know what their doing (Liberals) run the country.You know, I almost believed that until Ralph Goodale submitted the mini-budget and the Liberal party refused to consider the compromise motion of the NDP. That Mini-budget basically subverted the procedures around which budgets are based for the Liberals own electioneering goals. That's distasteful in my mind and reeks of corruption. Corruption that has nothing to do with Adscam, but was perpetrated by this current government. Before Goodale pulled that little trick, the chances of me voting liberal were reasonable. After that, they got shot to hell.

I figure, maybe it's time to let in the parties that the Liberals have taken their successful ideas from and let a party that can actually develop policy be given a chance.

Right. You want them to become the "Tax and Spend" Liberals that people rightfully complained about...


I rather have a "Tax and Spend" liberal then "Tax and Hoard". You either have two choices: Tax people and give them back services, or lower taxes if you don't plan on spending much.


And if he wins a majority? Then what?

Unless Harper really changes his ways, no way in hell will he ever win Majority. The fact that he goes around saying "I'm looking back into gay marriage" already turns off a nice chunk of Ontario voters.


Yes, it needs reform, but that can be done without the higher costs of privatization.


I don't see anything wrong with privatization. Sure, it might 'take' some doctors from the public sector, but it would actually make some private companies go "hey, Canada needs doctors. Lets send some of our boys in." Extra taxes for the government, more jobs, more doctors, less waiting. Besides, with some of the doctors I've experienced who were total quacks and trying to charge people for a 'doctor's note', I don't mind forking out some extra money from a real professional then a doctor who finished last in his class.

Have you even seen the wait times for some of the most required surgeries? If I needed a hip surgery, I ain't waiting over 20 weeks. If Canadians who live near the american border are flocking there when they need an operation, don't you think that maybe Canadians *want* private healthcare?

Besides, we have a prime minister that is trying to discourage the growth of private healthcare, yet attends to one himself. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't trust a leader of a nation with that kind of train of thought.

Canada City']I don't see anything wrong with privatization. Sure, it might 'take' some doctors from the public sector, but it would actually make some private companies go "hey, Canada needs doctors. Lets send some of our boys in."
Because there's so much more money to be made having to build and fund a clinic in a foreign country than just continuing to fund the one in your own country and having the patients come to you? In case you haven't noticed, the shortage of doctors isn't just a Canadian phenomenon. The baby-boom generation is putting a severe strain on medical practitioners around the world.

And even in the US, the problem has more to do with distribution than amounts. More doctors are moving away from the generalized family practice and instead moving into the more lucrative fields like sports medicine. Yet you seem to believe that if Canada adopts a privatized system, that same problem will somehow not materialize here on top of an already struggling public system.

The solution to Canada's health care difficulties is actually quite simple: address the problem in the post-secondary institutions. Doctors, by and large, aren't dissatisfied with what they're making according to the CMAJ. Privatization therefore won't affect that at all. The problem is simply that our post-secondary institutions aren't putting out enough doctors to meet the demand. The reason for that very much boils down to the cost of acquiring a medical degree.

Provide grants for post-secondary education that require a year of working in Canada following graduation for each year of grant money received and you'll see two things: 1. More doctors getting educated and working in Canada, 2. Less people using the health care system. (The higher the level of education, the less likely the person needs health care according to Statistics Canada). Both of these will alleviate the pressure on our health care system, with no need for privatization.

Because there's so much more money to be made having to build and fund a clinic in a foreign country than just continuing to fund the one in your own country and having the patients come to you? In case you haven't noticed, the shortage of doctors isn't just a Canadian phenomenon. The baby-boom generation is putting a severe strain on medical practitioners around the world.

And even in the US, the problem has more to do with distribution than amounts. More doctors are moving away from the generalized family practice and instead moving into the more lucrative fields like sports medicine. Yet you seem to believe that if Canada adopts a privatized system, that same problem will somehow not materialize here on top of an already struggling public system.

The solution to Canada's health care difficulties is actually quite simple: address the problem in the post-secondary institutions. Doctors, by and large, aren't dissatisfied with what they're making according to the CMAJ. Privatization therefore won't affect that at all. The problem is simply that our post-secondary institutions aren't putting out enough doctors to meet the demand. The reason for that very much boils down to the cost of acquiring a medical degree.

Provide grants for post-secondary education that require a year of working in Canada following graduation for each year of grant money received and you'll see two things: 1. More doctors getting educated and working in Canada, 2. Less people using the health care system. (The higher the level of education, the less likely the person needs health care according to Statistics Canada). Both of these will alleviate the pressure on our health care system, with no need for privatization.

Good job, Waterkeep.

I would say the only thing you missed was accrediting foreign doctors. (and engineers, and nurses, and etc.) We are really, really slow at recognizing the credentials of people from non-English speaking countries, even if their medical (etc) schools are as good as or better than or own.

I figure, maybe it's time to let in the parties that the Liberals have taken their successful ideas from and let a party that can actually develop policy be given a chance.
Hear, hear. Thanks for that contribution, Waterkeep. And a very bold outlook, if I might add.

Let's all vote how are guts tell us to and just see what happens. Come what may. It could be like a grand national experiment. Actually voting how you really want to vote.

I am!!!!!!!!! I said it before and I'll say it again:

From Fiberals to Bald Faced Liars
This reminds me of the BC Fiberals. Ick! I hate them. I really want to rip Gordo in half.

Btw, nice to see you again Canada City.

sniphear hear!!! protect public healthcare, not for-profit healthcare. :)

Btw, nice to see you again Canada City.
You're such a liar, TCR.

LOL, I thought Canada City is not coming back to this forum forever. I think he's either really pissed off at us or maybe too chicken to make another BS conservative rants when we can easily make his rants obsolete.

LOL, I thought Canada City is not coming back to this forum forever. I think he's either really pissed off at us or maybe too chicken to make another BS conservative rants when we can easily make his rants obsolete.
That, or CC is an inrequently-used puppet nation used for the express purpose of getting Canadians riled every so often. Y'know, just putting that one out there.

Yeah.

Canada City as a puppet? Never thought of that.

The NDP is regularly in second place in Liberal won ridings.

And, for that matter, a number of BC ridings are very closely duked out between the Conservatives and the NDP (and I think there were a couple like that in Saskatchewan and Manitoba too) - the Liberals were barely in the race.

In this case, it was Liberal voters who split the center-left vote and let the Conservatives win. Soft NDPers shouldn't vote Liberal in the western provinces (unless you live in Edmonton) - it only helps the CPC. Funny though, all we hear is "Vote Liberal or the CPC will win" - there's no recognition of the electoral reality in BC.

Here you go, The Bruce. 30 pages of Canadian political commentary. :P

And on that note, we will all know who to blame if the Conservatives form the next federal government. It will be the NDP. I won't forget it, if it happens and either will many others. If by some chance the NDP take enough seats away from the Liberals that a Conservative government is formed, you will have no one to blame but all you NDP voters. And if you think the Conservatives will work with you like the Liberals have in the past, you're on crack!.

Jack Layton and his party are traitors if he supports the Conservatives to bring down the government this week. I will never forgive the NDP for it and Canada has a long memory.

Lets not forget that the actions of Bob Rae in Ontario lead to such a backlash against the NDP I'll be surprised if we ever see another provincial NDP government here.

And if the NDP are the direct cause of a Conservative government, I hope all you liberal NDP voters stew in it and you will of deserved it.

And on that note, we will all know who to blame if the Conservatives form the next federal government. It will be the NDP. I won't forget it, if it happens and either will many others. If by some chance the NDP take enough seats away from the Liberals that a Conservative government is formed, you will have no one to blame but all you NDP voters. And if you think the Conservatives will work with you like the Liberals have in the past, you're on crack!.

Jack Layton and his party are traitors if he supports the Conservatives to bring down the government this week. I will never forgive the NDP for it and Canada has a long memory.

Lets not forget that the actions of Bob Rae in Ontario lead to such a backlash against the NDP I'll be surprised if we ever see another provincial NDP government here.

And if the NDP are the direct cause of a Conservative government, I hope all you liberal NDP voters stew in it and you will of deserved it.

Hear, hear! Though, I want a Conservative government. So, eff the NDP. ;) *braces for backlash*

And on that note, we will all know who to blame if the Conservatives form the next federal government. It will be the NDP. I won't forget it, if it happens and either will many others. If by some chance the NDP take enough seats away from the Liberals that a Conservative government is formed, you will have no one to blame but all you NDP voters. And if you think the Conservatives will work with you like the Liberals have in the past, you're on crack!.

Jack Layton and his party are traitors if he supports the Conservatives to bring down the government this week. I will never forgive the NDP for it and Canada has a long memory.

Lets not forget that the actions of Bob Rae in Ontario lead to such a backlash against the NDP I'll be surprised if we ever see another provincial NDP government here.

And if the NDP are the direct cause of a Conservative government, I hope all you liberal NDP voters stew in it and you will of deserved it.
I think Stephistan is starting to hate me, I'm feeling the wrath of an angry Liberal... eek!

HOW TO FIRE THE LIBERALS GUIDE FOR NDP AND CONSERVATIVES:

http://democraticspace.com/blog/2005/11/unseating-the-liberals-a-how-to-guide-for-the-ndp-and-conservatives/

I wonder if it's very useful for the NDP to try form the next and first NDP gov't. Hope it works. :D

An angry Liberal is going to kill me... eek!

Hear, hear! Though, I want a Conservative government. So, eff the NDP. ;) *braces for backlash*
OMG, Stephistan is really going to get me so bad... eek! Save me!

Hear, hear! Though, I want a Conservative government. So, eff the NDP. ;) *braces for backlash*

I'll have to say please excuse my tone in my last post if I sounded angry, because I am angry. We have one of the best governments in years, fiscally responsible and socially progressive and the NDP want to bring it down? Why so they can put in place their out of touch with reality policies? So that they can bankrupt my country and leave a debt for my children that will remain long after them?

You see the problem with a lot of these NDP voters is a) some are young and idealistic and just don't understand how the world works. b) Are so far to the left that they would ruin our country, or c) are so short sighted that they can't and or won't try to see the bigger picture.

And of course d) those under the serious delusion that the NDP has some sort of chance at ever forming a federal government. It won't happen in my lifetime I assure you. The NDP has always been sort of a protest vote except for the staunch far left who have delusions and zero concept of how it all works.

I love my country very much. I just don't want to see it ruined by the Conservatives who would sell us out to the Americans and put us on a course of a social dark age, nor the NDP who would spend like drunken sailors.

There is nothing wrong with the way the Liberals are running this country. I just wish they could see the bigger picture of what they're taking a chance on.

As for me, if the Conservatives do get in, it won't really effect my life except that my husband and I make a lot of money, so we will probably get lots of tax breaks. But socially they will put us back. I could easily see them banning gay marriage, go back on all the policies that make us free. Like living in a Canada right out of the Bush playbook. Harper has already said that he was ashamed that we didn't back up the American's in Iraq.

As for the NDP, people will not forget, they simply won't, and if they do directly cause a Conservative government, they'll be crying the loudest, but they will have made all of our beds. So we will all live with the oppressive Conservatives, because the NDP were delusional.

Makes me want to cry. :(

HOW TO FIRE THE LIBERALS GUIDE FOR NDP AND CONSERVATIVES:

http://democraticspace.com/blog/2005/11/unseating-the-liberals-a-how-to-guide-for-the-ndp-and-conservatives/

I wonder if it's very useful for the NDP to try form the next and first NDP gov't. Hope it works. :D

An angry Liberal is going to kill me... eek!
Damnit you beat me to it. So for all your rant Stephistan, what you described would be helpful for the NDP. *sticks out tounge*

So for all your rant Stephistan, what you described would be helpful for the NDP. *sticks out tounge*

No, not at all. You see here is a reality check. The only two parties who can or will form a government are either the Conservatives or the Liberals. If the NDP take votes away from the Liberals and that allows the Conservatives to form a government, they will have shot themselves in the foot. Because the Conservatives and the NDP have about as much in common as the KKK and black people. At least with a Liberal government they will be able to work with the Liberals, something they won't be able to do with the conservatives.

Jack Layton seemed to think that by helping the Liberals not fall last time that some how made him the PM, it didn't. Making concessions and expecting the government to completely adopt your policy is two very different things.

At this point, the only people the NDP are helping are the Conservatives win at least a minority government. Because, the NDP do not take votes away from the Conservatives or the Bloc, they take them away from the Liberals.

So, as said, they're just shooting all of us in the foot, I think back is more accurate. But the Conservatives are probably getting a good laugh out of it. Just think, the most left-wing liberal party in the mainstream are going to help throw out the Liberal party who they share many values with, so that the Conservatives can have a shot at the prize, who the NDP have nothing in common with.

It just doesn't make political sense. Jack Layton is a bad leader. That's fairly obvious.

Vote for the Green Party and NO, I DON'T WANT A WINTER ELECTION!

Looks like the no confidence vote comes today. You're getting a winter election.

Not that it seems like anything will change - the various news articles I read indicate that the Liberals will win, but will have to form a government with some other party because they won't have a majority alone.

Makes you wonder what everyone intends to accomplish.

You see the problem with a lot of these NDP voters is a) some are young and idealistic and just don't understand how the world works. b) Are so far to the left that they would ruin our country, or c) are so short sighted that they can't and or won't try to see the bigger picture.

And of course d) those under the serious delusion that the NDP has some sort of chance at ever forming a federal government.



So, now that you've shown us how immature, leftist, short-sighted and delusional we are, please forgive us for questioning your Liberal hegemony. Thanks to your condescending post, I now see the light! The Liberals and the Conservatives are the only two parties that matter! I can't wait for the binary politics that have engulfed the USA (and similarly, Quebec) to fully eradicate the spirit of compromise and cooperation Canada enjoys. Thank you.

Sincerely,

An NDP supporter.

So, now that you've shown us how immature, leftist, short-sighted and delusional we are, please forgive us for questioning your Liberal hegemony. Thanks to your condescending post, I now see the light! The Liberals and the Conservatives are the only two parties that matter! I can't wait for the binary politics that have engulfed the USA (and similarly, Quebec) to fully eradicate the spirit of compromise and cooperation Canada enjoys. Thank you.

Sincerely,

An NDP supporter.

If you're going to be that daft, and go to a two-party system, you might as well apply for statehood in the US.

And if the NDP are the direct cause of a Conservative government, I hope all you liberal NDP voters stew in it and you will of deserved it.

Oh for goodness sakes Stephi - there are a lot of ridings out west where the fight is between the NDP and the CPC. If people vote Lib in that case, they are handing the riding to the CPC. We're not all Ontario, you know.

And guess what. If we think a party is better than another, even if they won't be forming government, we have a right to vote for them.

The federal government itself has released a study saying that the NDP overall have been more fiscally responsible than either conservative or liberal governments. So will you please quit it with the "the NDP will destroy the country" bullshit. So you had a bad experience with Bob Rae. I'm sorry that you did, but not all Ontarians feel the same way.

http://www.fin.gc.ca/toce/2005/frt_e.html
http://www.ndp.ca/page/1627

And because Mike at Rational Reasons says all these things better than I:

http://rationalreasons.blogspot.com/

This reminds me of the BC Fiberals. Ick! I hate them. I really want to rip Gordo in half.

Btw, nice to see you again Canada City.
Well that quote is actually about the Ontario Provincial Liberals - the worst of the whole bunch. I can't stand Dalton McIdiot. But it applies well to Martin and his Motely Crue as well. ;)

I'll have to say please excuse my tone in my last post if I sounded angry, because I am angry. We have one of the best governments in years, fiscally responsible and socially progressive and the NDP want to bring it down? Why so they can put in place their out of touch with reality policies? So that they can bankrupt my country and leave a debt for my children that will remain long after them?

You see the problem with a lot of these NDP voters is a) some are young and idealistic and just don't understand how the world works. b) Are so far to the left that they would ruin our country, or c) are so short sighted that they can't and or won't try to see the bigger picture.

And of course d) those under the serious delusion that the NDP has some sort of chance at ever forming a federal government. It won't happen in my lifetime I assure you. The NDP has always been sort of a protest vote except for the staunch far left who have delusions and zero concept of how it all works.

I love my country very much. I just don't want to see it ruined by the Conservatives who would sell us out to the Americans and put us on a course of a social dark age, nor the NDP who would spend like drunken sailors.

There is nothing wrong with the way the Liberals are running this country. I just wish they could see the bigger picture of what they're taking a chance on.

As for me, if the Conservatives do get in, it won't really effect my life except that my husband and I make a lot of money, so we will probably get lots of tax breaks. But socially they will put us back. I could easily see them banning gay marriage, go back on all the policies that make us free. Like living in a Canada right out of the Bush playbook. Harper has already said that he was ashamed that we didn't back up the American's in Iraq.

As for the NDP, people will not forget, they simply won't, and if they do directly cause a Conservative government, they'll be crying the loudest, but they will have made all of our beds. So we will all live with the oppressive Conservatives, because the NDP were delusional.

Makes me want to cry. :(

And this is the kind of thing that makes me want to scream. You want to silence our voices. The only reason the current Liberal government is as progressive as it is is because of the presence of the NDP. Without the NDP, we would not have universal healthcare, social security, unemployment insurance, bilingualism, or any other progressive legislation that a minority Liberal government has brought forward. You're proud of the way Canada is today? Good for you. Now thank the CCF and the NDP. If the NDP didn't exist, the Liberals would be concentrating on gaining the CPC vote and leaning right, while nearly 20% of Canadians would be disenfranchised, and no doubt, not bothering to vote.

For your information, NDP voters are not children. We are rational, intelligent adults who have looked at the alternatives and said, "I'm sorry, that is not good enough." We are professionals, blue-collar workers, social activists, environmentalists, economists, ministers, and entrepreneurs. Some of us are old enough to have personally met Tommy Douglas, the man voted the Greatest Canadian and founder of the CCF (which became the NDP).

We are not fiscally irresponsible, despite the constant refurbishing of that myth by the LPC. I have posted links to the truth in the past, 2 or 3 times in this thread, but it's pretty clear you haven't even bothered to read them.

This time, I'll try posting it in full:
New Democrats most fiscally responsible: Federal government report

Fri 23 Sep 2005

OTTAWA – New Democratic Party governments have the best fiscal track-record among all parties, balancing the books more than twice as often than Liberal governments, according to a federal government report released today.

“The NDP has shown that it is possible to invest in the things Canadians say they value, while demonstrating fiscal discipline,” NDP Leader Jack Layton said. “Our approach to the budget this spring delivered important investments in housing, the environment, foreign aid, education and training while keeping the books balanced.”

The report shows that NDP governments have balanced the books 46 per cent of the time. (edit by me: as opposed to 21% for the Liberals and 35% for the Conservatives.) For example, Saskatchewan’s NDP government posted 11 consecutive balanced budgets after ending a decade of Conservative mismanagement and corruption.

Despite Paul Martin’s frequent pronouncements on fiscal responsibility, Liberals have the worst fiscal record overall. Liberal federal, provincial and territorial governments have posted year-over-year budget deficits an astonishing 79 per cent of the time.

Conservative governments have only a slightly better record than the Liberals, logging deficits 65 per cent of the years in which they’ve been in power.

The report issued today by the Liberal government’s Department of Finance looks at federal, provincial and territorial accounts over the past 22 years.

Reference: Fiscal Reference Tables, September 2005 http://www.fin.gc.ca/toce/2005/frt_e.html

Equus,
As nice as the history lesson is, it's pretty meaningless. How a government in Newfoundland managed their budget during the collapse of the fishing industry, for example, has no bearing on the current choices for Federal stewardship of our country.

And looking at the Federal Liberals, let us do what is right and look at the CURRENT party. People want to dredge up Trudeau? Well, love him or hate him, the influence of him on the current party is nil.

So, using your OWN tables, let us look to the Lyin' Brian years where budget deficit hovered between 4% and 7% of GDP throughout his decade in power. At 5.5% in '93 when Chretien took over it was more than halved by '96 and in surplus every since.

That is the record of fiscal restraint that the current Liberals runs on.

Tommy Douglas? Great man. Dead. Irrelevant vis-a-vis Jack Leyton.

Jack created this election. He did it by playing his cards in the public arena. He did it by trying to take complete control of the healthcare agenda through complaining to the press that the government was not bending to his desires enough as quid pro quo for his previous support.

Well, the government of the day has to be seen to be doing something. It's called GOVERNING. That means working with others. That means consultation. That does NOT mean acceeding to public demands to getting everything you want by a party that is not even the official opposition. Hell, not even in third spot.

No Jack, having 19 seats does NOT let you dictate policy.

So what does Jack do?

His attempted vote of future non-confidence, which Paul also could not accede to. You don't get to go inventing new parliamentary laws to suit your agenda Jack. You either have confidence or you don't. and if you don;t you bring the minority party down.

That's it, that's all.

And after all that, who is going to be the one to make the call? Not Jack. Nope - it's Harper's call for Jack to support today. and Jack will support the Conservatives for doing something that he provided the opening for but didn't have the balls to do himself.

Your agreement (and mine to a certain extent too) with NDP policies aside, Jack Leyton has demonstrated one thing throughout this adventure:


He is COMPLETELY lacking in the strength of character and/or courage of convictions required to lead my country.

And your party is only as strong as it's leader.

Well, the government of the day has to be seen to be doing something. It's called GOVERNING. That means working with others. That means consultation.

Interesting that you cite this as a reason to support the liberals. Please tell me how Minister Goodale consulted with the finance committee (as is normal in the budgetary process) before submitting his latest election budget.

Tell me how the liberals have been consulting and working with others when they repeatedly put forward a bill that would make private copying in Canada as illegal as it is in the states, despite petitions hitting them every time they try?

Is it really working with others when the liberals ignore the Chinese Canadian Community in their bill C-333 addressing the Head Tax?

Is it a consultative government that proposes the Lawful Access act that will require ISPs and telephone companies to install intercept equipment on their lines and require that the companies give law enforcement certain personally identifiable information without necessarily requiring a court order?

Is it a government intent on working with others that amends the Investment Canada Act giving the Cabinet of Canada broad review and rejection powers over any foreign investment?

Perhaps it's appointing Michael Ignatieff as a candidate in a riding that would prefer to choose their own candidate that is the example of the consultative behavior and how they work with others.

It's not the leader that makes the party, it's the policies. Which is actually the primary fault I have with the NDP.. their fascination with Mr. Layton turns me off. Show me the goods, not the figurehead.

Actually voting how you really want to vote.

Preposterous!

Preposterous, I say!


*walks off, rambling about the foolishness of today's youth*

Equus,
As nice as the history lesson is, it's pretty meaningless. [/snipped for length]

Silliopolis, I have never once said that people should not vote Liberal (or Green, or even Conservative!) if that is what they feel is right. What I take exception to is people telling me that voting for the NDP is not a viable choice, particularly when those same people continue to perpetuate the same myths: "the NDP are fiscally irresponsible", "voting NDP is throwing your vote away", "NDP voters are young, stupid commies", and the perennial favourite: "no good has ever come of voting NDP". My history lesson, as you call it, was an attempt to show that those soundbites really are myths.

You want to vote Liberal. Fine. I'm happy you're voting. The worst thing for Canada is the apathetic people who don't use their voice. But Silliopolis, please don't join the people trying to take my voice and my vote away just because you don't like the party I've chosen.

Looks like the no confidence vote comes today. You're getting a winter election.

Not that it seems like anything will change - the various news articles I read indicate that the Liberals will win, but will have to form a government with some other party because they won't have a majority alone.

Makes you wonder what everyone intends to accomplish.
POLLS MEAN NOTHING

I think I will stand up and make the assertion that a Conservative minority is good for Canadian democracy. Why? Because another Liberal government will make voters apathetic. IMO, give the Conservatives a chance to screw up on their own (IF they do), and Canadian voters will be back in droves. It is important that we change parties every so often. If we don't, what's the point of having elections at all? It's a sad corner we Canadians have backed ourselves into, but maybe it'll be another nine-monther like Joe Clark, and then you can go back to having the Liberals.

But don't count the Conservatives out just because the Liberals say they're too creepy and rabid. The fact remains that the Tories have NOT been given a chance to govern and they're being labelled. The Tories know the only way they can win an election is by focusing on fiscally conservative campaign issues, and moving past the socially conservative issues. They may or may not do that, but I'm willing to bet Stephen Harper knows it's true. But the likelihood of a Conservative minority is just too great when you think of how primed the Bloc is to literally crackwhip the Liberals out of Quebec.

Overall, here's what I think:

The winner will have less than 20 seats advantage over the next largest party. It will either be the Liberals or the Conservatives. If Stephen Harper loses by more than 15 seats, he'll have to resign. Peter Mackay and Jean Charest will contest the leadership and Mackay will win. The next election will see a true fiscal conservative against a classic liberal. Prime Minister Mackay anyone? :p

MPs in parliament are now voting on the motion as we speak...

171 in favour, 133 against, 4 abstain/absent

Conservatives, Bloc and NDP all voted for it. All 133 Libs voted against. Which is funny, because they were saying how comfortable the Liberals were with the idea, so you'd think they'd just vote in favour of it anyway :p

Anyway, woooo. Conservative government in two months, baby! Yeah.

171 in favour, 133 against, 4 abstain/absent

Conservatives, Bloc and NDP all voted for it. All 133 Libs voted against. Which is funny, because they were saying how comfortable the Liberals were with the idea, so you'd think they'd just vote in favour of it anyway :p

Anyway, woooo. Conservative government in two months, baby! Yeah.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I wanted to be able to vote in the next election! Hopefully the Conservatives can last a month.

Overall, here's what I think:

The winner will have less than 20 seats advantage over the next largest party. It will either be the Liberals or the Conservatives. If Stephen Harper loses by more than 15 seats, he'll have to resign. Peter Mackay and Jean Charest will contest the leadership and Mackay will win. The next election will see a true fiscal conservative against a classic liberal. Prime Minister Mackay anyone? :p

Jean Charest? Guess you haven't heard how bad his liberals are doing in quebec. Just to let you know, it's not good.

MacKay will get plucked clean by the Liberal machine if he takes the helm of the tory leadership. Remember he's the guy who said he wouldn't merge with the Alliance. Hell, he went so far to go and sign an agreement with another leadership candidate so he could be the leader of the P.C.. Don't you think the Liberals, who love negative campaigning as of late, will scream and scream and say, "this guy blatantly lied to his party, how can canadians trust him?"

Jean Charest? Guess you haven't heard how bad his liberals are doing in quebec. Just to let you know, it's not good.

MacKay will get plucked clean by the Liberal machine if he takes the helm of the tory leadership. Remember he's the guy who said he wouldn't merge with the Alliance. Hell, he went so far to go and sign an agreement with another leadership candidate so he could be the leader of the P.C.. Don't you think the Liberals, who love negative campaigning as of late, will scream and scream and say, "this guy blatantly lied to his party, how can canadians trust him?"
But, I thought politics was just a contest to see who can lie the most while keeping a straight face.:confused: I guess that's what happens when you have to obey BC polititians.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I wanted to be able to vote in the next election! Hopefully the Conservatives can last a month.

Me too, it'll be 10 days before my birthday. :(

(Saskatoon, that's IF Stephen Harper loses.)

Hopefully the Conservatives can last a month.
Don't go betting your tuition fund on it.

And on that note, we will all know who to blame if the Conservatives form the next federal government. It will be the NDP. I won't forget it, if it happens and either will many others. If by some chance the NDP take enough seats away from the Liberals that a Conservative government is formed, you will have no one to blame but all you NDP voters. And if you think the Conservatives will work with you like the Liberals have in the past, you're on crack!.

Jack Layton and his party are traitors if he supports the Conservatives to bring down the government this week. I will never forgive the NDP for it and Canada has a long memory.

Lets not forget that the actions of Bob Rae in Ontario lead to such a backlash against the NDP I'll be surprised if we ever see another provincial NDP government here.

And if the NDP are the direct cause of a Conservative government, I hope all you liberal NDP voters stew in it and you will of deserved it.


Someone has been brainwashed by the Liberals......don't worry your part of the majority.

Here is a really good article on Jack Layton in Macleans, should anyone care to read it:

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/politics/article.jsp?content=20051205_116830_116830

I figured it was better to post it here rather than start a new topic.

Notable quote:Layton, 55, emerged as a skilful brokerage politician last April, and hasn't let up since. When the Conservatives and the Bloc Québécois were salivating over the chance to bring down Paul Martin's minority in the wake of spring revelations from Justice John Gomery's sponsorship inquiry, Layton cut a risky deal that saved the Liberals, and made his NDP a force in Ottawa in a way the party hadn't been in decades. He traded support in the House for $4.6 billion in spending on NDP priorities, from affordable housing to mass transit.

Not bad for a guy who commands only the fourth party in the House, a mere 18 MPs out of 308. In the campaign set to begin this week, the question is whether he can persuade Canadians to give his NDP enough seats for him to gain a firmer grip on the balance of power in what is likely to be another minority House. If the election puts him in that potent position, then last spring's one-off budget deal with the Liberals could turn into the template for a sustained NDP power play. The danger, for Layton, is a repeat of what happened to the NDP after it propped up Liberal minorities in the '60s and early '70s -- a Liberal resurgence at the NDP's expense, partly fuelled by the popularity of the very policies New Democrats pushed onto the agenda. That outcome would quickly turn Jack Layton from the architect of an NDP renaissance into a footnote beside the entries for Audrey McLaughlin and Alexa McDonough.

Here's my goal. Vote in a Conservative minority government. That'll show the Liberals that they can't take things for granted. The Conservatives will inevetiably screw up. Then we'll have another government defeated and it's on to a NDP majority government. Yoo hoo!!!! :)

Here's my goal. Vote in a Conservative minority government. That'll show the Liberals that they can't take things for granted. The Conservatives will inevetiably screw up. Then we'll have another government defeated and it's on to a NDP majority government. Yoo hoo!!!! :)

Inevitably screw up? I don't think you would have to wait long for it to dissolve, even if it didn't outright 'screw up'. A Conservative minority government is not likely destined to last long, since it doesn't really have any 'natural partners'.

Someone has been brainwashed by the Liberals......don't worry your part of the majority.And why do you think of that?

And dude. Why do you want to vote Conservative when you said you no longer a member of that party because of Harper?

The CBC has a site up right now that displays party positions on a large number of issues. It appears to be based on what they've said in the past, rather than the result of a questionnaire. It covers a lot of issues, albeit it in short soundbite like form. Kinda like party platform flashcards.

To find it go to:

http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes/leadersparties/issues.html

And the CBC poll too:

http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes/analysiscommentary/poll.html

And why do you think of that?

And dude. Why do you want to vote Conservative when you said you no longer a member of that party because of Harper?

He is a lesser evil then Martin. But I think most would disagree.

The CBC has a site up right now that displays party positions on a large number of issues. It appears to be based on what they've said in the past, rather than the result of a questionnaire. It covers a lot of issues, albeit it in short soundbite like form. Kinda like party platform flashcards.

To find it go to:

http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes/leadersparties/issues.html
I like how under the catagory Enviroment and the sub-catragory Kyoto, the Bloc said we should work to meet the goals of the Kyoto Accord, except in Quebec because that is unfair.

okay NDP is very stupid. They talk about the issues people don't give a damn about. Why do they even talk? Why are they so proud of? They haven't even been able to come close to form a govenrment. In Ontario, they won the provincial government but they hilariously got kicked out on 1995. Thanks to their voter splits, conservatives took over and destroyed the whole education system.

If the conservatives win this election, it will be because of the stupid NDP, who would split the progressive votes.

If the conservatives win this election, it will be because of the stupid NDP, who would split the progressive votes.

Green Party > steals votes from > NDP > steals votes from > Conservatives (West) and Liberals (East)

Therefore it was the Green Party who split the progressive votes.

okay NDP is very stupid. They talk about the issues people don't give a damn about. Why do they even talk? Why are they so proud of? They haven't even been able to come close to form a govenrment. In Ontario, they won the provincial government but they hilariously got kicked out on 1995. Thanks to their voter splits, conservatives took over and destroyed the whole education system.

If the conservatives win this election, it will be because of the stupid NDP, who would split the progressive votes.

Canadians don't care about healthcare? The environment? Poverty? Foreign aid? A good economy? Native issues? Ethics in government? Homelessness? Peacekeeping? Pensions?

What exactly is it that the NDP say that you don't think Canadians care about?

okay NDP is very stupid. They talk about the issues people don't give a damn about. Why do they even talk? Why are they so proud of? They haven't even been able to come close to form a govenrment. In Ontario, they won the provincial government but they hilariously got kicked out on 1995. Thanks to their voter splits, conservatives took over and destroyed the whole education system.

If the conservatives win this election, it will be because of the stupid NDP, who would split the progressive votes.
Really because in my riding the NDP lost to the Conservatives by just a few hundred votes. In this case the Liberals split the progressive votes causing the Conservatives to win the riding.

Canadians don't care about ...Ethics in government? here is my prediction...the upcoming elections will prove that Canadians dont give a shit about Ethics in government.

Mark my words.

here is my prediction...the upcoming elections will prove that Canadians dont give a shit about Ethics in government.

Mark my words.

Some do. Some are very upset about ethics in government. That's one of the reasons why the Conservatives are coming on strong, and the Liberals are doing so poorly in Quebec. I admit, however, that it is probably not the most important thing to most voters, simply because 3/4 of us believe that all politicians are corrupt (or are corruptable) in some way anyway.

Which is a helluva sad state of affairs.

(So, does this mean you think Canadians care about the other issues in my list?)

The five major TV networks and four major parties (sorry Greens) have agreed on a debate format.

There will be two sets of debate this time - Dec 15 (French) and Dec 16 (English) in Vancouver, and Jan 9 (English) and Jan 10 (French) from Quebec.

The Vancouver debate will have a bit of a twist. Instead of journalists asking questions, there will be videotaped questions from the public, with the moderator asking follow up questions as necessary. Furthermore, in both sets of debates, new rules have been put into place to stop them from shouting overtop of each other as they did in 2004. When it's one leader's turn to speak, the mikes of the other three will be dead. The theory is that we'll hear more policy and less shouting that way.

The Quebec debate method will be the same, except that all of the questions will be posed by a moderator.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=10010354

Hey Equus, are the Greens being allowed into the debates this time 'round or what? I heard a rumour they will be allowed.

Hey Equus, are the Greens being allowed into the debates this time 'round or what? I heard a rumour they will be allowed.
Doesn't look like it. They're still just talking about "four major parties", which I interpret to mean LPC, CPC, NDP, and Bloc. And I personally think that is really unfortunate. I guess we'll be signing a bunch more petitions to let Jim Harris take the podium alongside everyone else.

Until they get a seat in the house, it looks like they'll continue to be marginalized.

Does anyone remember what percent of the vote the Greens got last time?

Edit: Answered my own question. 4.3%

Here's the Green Party press release on the subject:

http://www.greenparty.ca/mediarelease79.html

They make some very telling points about other leaders who were allowed to participate, even though their parties didn't have seats in the house:The decision by the broadcast consortium to exclude the Green Party flies in the face of its previous rulings. Despite having no seats in Parliament in 1993, no official recognition from the Speaker, and only 75 candidates, the Bloc Quebecois was included in both the French and English debates. Preston Manning participated in the 1993 leaders’ debate based on the 11,154 votes Deborah Grey won in a 1989 by-election with a 47 per cent turnout. In 1993, they only ran 207 candidates.

here is my prediction...the upcoming elections will prove that Canadians dont give a shit about Ethics in government.

Mark my words.
You do recall when the conservatives were left with only two seats don't you?


Ethics doesn't necessarily have to be an issue. Martin wasn't involved. The ones paying the piper for their scandal will not be running for parlament.

You do recall when the conservatives were left with only two seats don't you?
Agreed. I think ethics do matter. But it's not the only issue on the table, especially when most Canadians seem to think all politicians and parties are crooked when the opportunity presents itself.

Inevitably screw up? I don't think you would have to wait long for it to dissolve, even if it didn't outright 'screw up'. A Conservative minority government is not likely destined to last long, since it doesn't really have any 'natural partners'.
Oh the Bloc will sign up with the Conservatives. The Bloc has no scruples. I can't believe that Gilles Ducieppe has made a Quebec International Hockey Team a campaign issue. That's almost as stupid as Harper's opening his election with same sex marriage. DOH!!!!! Ducieppe is supposed to be announcing the line up today. What an idiot!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

Oh the Bloc will sign up with the Conservatives. The Bloc has no scruples. I can't believe that Gilles Ducieppe has made a Quebec International Hockey Team a campaign issue. That's almost as stupid as Harper's opening his election with same sex marriage. DOH!!!!! Ducieppe is supposed to be announcing the line up today. What an idiot!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

The Bloc does have scruples. I think you'll find that they would vote against any social conservative measures. The only thing that really worries me if the Conservatives getting into power is they and the Bloc getting together to increase the power of the provinces -- further regionalization, in other words. That I can see them doing.

As for the Quebec international sports team - it doesn't matter to Duceppe if what he says doesn't play well in the rest of Canada. It still sounds good to most Quebecers.

A bump for those looking for a Canadian political thread that didn't get carried away.

(and yes, I was guilty too)