NationStates Jolt Archive

Of course, surrender is always a viable option...
Gee, there've been a lot of those around the last week or two, haven't they? I guess France was in the news, and people can't keep themselves from cracking one or two.

That's okay, and there are jokes about every country on the planet.

I'm just afraid that a few people seem to take these jokes rather seriously, on both sides. As I said, French surrender jokes should only be taken as offensive if they were meant to be serious. Remember that, everyone on the left (ie non-American*) side.

For the American side...here's a link to wikipedia, as always the starting point for a bit of reading. It does a good job of outlining what happened in 1940 - and why the French surrendered in the end.

The Battle of France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_Gelb)
If you have any questions, feel free to ask, and someone will always be there to answer.

Surrender is an option that is only ever taken as a last resort, if the war or the battle is lost, and you stand to lose more by fighting on than by giving up. This was certainly one of those cases, just like with the end of the Southern Confederation, or with the US forces on the Phillipines when the Japanese first attacked.
France was not exactly eager to surrender to its worst foe, but ultimately it had no choice, and any other nation would have done the same in its situation.

We already lost Chellis (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=453720) because of too many surrender-jokes, and maybe a little more tact would be good in the future.
So I dedicate this thread to once more trying to clear France's name in the eyes of the American public (or the percentage of it that frequents NS General). Undoubtedly it will also move into other areas, such as French support for US policy and vice versa. Let me say that that too is okay and wouldn't be thread-jacking. Get it all out there, and maybe someone will be a little wiser afterwards (see, almost a year on NS, and I still didn't get it).

*I know, I know...

Hear, hear.

By the time the French surrendered, they were screwed. Germany had pushed deep into French territory, France's armies were in chaos, and the French leadership was having flashbacks of the interminable horrors of WWI. Their surrender was completely unjustified. It's not even as though they took it lying down- Many of the French colonies kept up the fight, and partisans caused significant damage to the Germans throughout the war.

Many Americans claim that France should be grateful to us, because without us, they'd by flying the Swastika. To that I say: We should be greatful to them, because without the French, we would be flying the Union Jack (or some variation of it; the 13 colonies probably would be part of the same federation as what we know to be Canada, and part of the Commonwealth).

Well you make a fair point. Im English and don't like the French much for other reasons. Surrender jokes are really mostly in bad taste.

Many Americans claim that France should be grateful to us, because without us, they'd by flying the Swastika. To that I say: We should be greatful to them, because without the French, we would be flying the Union Jack (or some variation of it; the 13 colonies probably would be part of the same federation as what we know to be Canada, and part of the Commonwealth).


Perhaps, however you would have been given your autonomy freely in the same way Canada, Australia, Sotuh-African and New Zealand were. Thisis contrast to the French treatment of their colonies. Indo-China and Algeria....

Hear, hear.

By the time the French surrendered, they were screwed. Germany had pushed deep into French territory, France's armies were in chaos, and the French leadership was having flashbacks of the interminable horrors of WWI. Their surrender was completely unjustified. It's not even as though they took it lying down- Many of the French colonies kept up the fight, and partisans caused significant damage to the Germans throughout the war.

Many Americans claim that France should be grateful to us, because without us, they'd by flying the Swastika. To that I say: We should be greatful to them, because without the French, we would be flying the Union Jack (or some variation of it; the 13 colonies probably would be part of the same federation as what we know to be Canada, and part of the Commonwealth).

Whoa, whoa, the Ameicans only ended the Pasific Front,

Perhaps, however you would have been given your autonomy freely in the same way Canada, Australia, Sotuh-African and New Zealand were. Thisis contrast to the French treatment of their colonies. Indo-China and Algeria....

Aye, the Commonwealth. I mentioned that. Actually, that wouldn't be a bad fate- with the exceptions of South Africa and Australia, the Commonwealth countries are pleasant places to live. I wonder how the world would have changed if the 13 colonies had stayed part of the British Empire? Hm...

Whoa, whoa, the Ameicans only ended the Pasific Front,

True. Of course, the case could be made that D-Day and the campaign through France kept the Soviets from overrunning and Communizing everything in their path- so, the US could be said to have kept the tricolour flying, rather than the Hammer and Sickle. Again, though, the US owes France a rather larger debt.

I'm relatively new around here but it seems to me that Chellis' leaving had to do with a lot more than a few french jokes.

And about the counties helping each other, govenments are made up of people. Most of the people who particpanted in WWII are dead and all the French people who help the US stay independant are dead. I think everyone should stop bringing them up as though we owe each other for something that happended before most of the people on the planet were born.

I'm relatively new around here but it seems to me that Chellis' leaving had to do with a lot more than a few french jokes.
Obviously. But there is no doubt that they made him angry, and angry people aren't having fun.
Fact of the matter is that French jokes aren't particularly appropriate in almost all cases, not really based on reality, and often do little more than cause aggravation.

Especially considering the way they are often used, which is little more than people patting themselves on the back for not being French...almost a form of trolling sometimes.

Aye, the Commonwealth. I mentioned that. Actually, that wouldn't be a bad fate- with the exceptions of South Africa and Australia, the Commonwealth countries are pleasant places to live. I wonder how the world would have changed if the 13 colonies had stayed part of the British Empire? Hm...

Well South Africa and Australia are perfectly nice as long as you're a white settler, having taken advantage of the native peoples...
The "13 Colonies" would be probably almost entirely protestant. Maybe the prolongued presence of the British could have led to a real American Front opening upon with the French in Louisiana during the Napoleonic Wars. Slavery would have been banned when Britain banned it, long before America did. Who really knows?

Many Americans claim that France should be grateful to us, because without us, they'd by flying the Swastika. To that I say: We should be greatful to them, because without the French, we would be flying the Union Jack (or some variation of it; the 13 colonies probably would be part of the same federation as what we know to be Canada, and part of the Commonwealth).

Indeed. Without the defeat of Cornwallis by Rochambeau and Lafayette as well as the victory of de Grasse at the battle of the Chesapeake the USA would probably never have been formed. And remember the words spoken by Cleveland when the statue of liberty was given as a French present:

"It is a token of the gratitude and appreciation of France, assuring us that in our efforts to commend to the world a government by a free people, we have a steadfast ally, and can demonstrate the kinship of republics".

And now we have freedom fries. O Reilly stating that France deserves the riots for not joining the Iraq war. Jokes about how the French always surrender.

If this is how an average American thinks you should treat your best friend, no wonder more and more people dislike the USA.

Obviously. But there is no doubt that they made him angry, and angry people aren't having fun.
Fact of the matter is that French jokes aren't particularly appropriate in almost all cases, not really based on reality, and often do little more than cause aggravation.

Especially considering the way they are often used, which is little more than people patting themselves on the back for not being French...almost a form of trolling sometimes.

Okay, that's true. But most comedy is based on stereotypes of some sort.

O Reilly stating that France deserves the riots for not joining the Iraq war.
No they deserve them for mistreating their immigrant communities and claiming one of the world's highest standards of living for themselves while leaving the vulnerable to rot in tower blocks.

If this is how an average American thinks you should treat your best friend, no wonder more and more people dislike the USA.
Hey! You told us we were your best friends! I'm never invading Iraq with you again.

If this is how an average American thinks you should treat your best friend, no wonder more and more people dislike the USA.

Well, what can I say to that? We're a nation of nomads, refugees, and outcasts. We are a caustic people and we like to speak our minds no matter how insane our thoughts.

Aye, the Commonwealth. I mentioned that. Actually, that wouldn't be a bad fate- with the exceptions of South Africa and Australia, the Commonwealth countries are pleasant places to live. I wonder how the world would have changed if the 13 colonies had stayed part of the British Empire? Hm...

OK, so our government is a bit crap, but what else makes us so unpleasant?

Surrender is an option that is only ever taken as a last resort, if the war or the battle is lost, and you stand to lose more by fighting on than by giving up. This was certainly one of those cases, just like with the end of the Southern Confederation, or with the US forces on the Phillipines when the Japanese first attacked.


*I know, I know...
But you dont see me leaving with all the sheep jokes do you?
The Confederacy did fight on for a while after they had been split in half and then into Quarters well for a while.

The thing with France is they have along history of this sort of stuff.
1870
WWI their Soldiers refused to fight Offensive campaigns for a while.

Of course WWII

Dien Behn Phu.

Sure its the staple diet of the American Comedian and sure it may be over played a bit but meh...

Hear, hear.

By the time the French surrendered, they were screwed. Germany had pushed deep into French territory, France's armies were in chaos, and the French leadership was having flashbacks of the interminable horrors of WWI. Their surrender was completely unjustified. It's not even as though they took it lying down- Many of the French colonies kept up the fight, and partisans caused significant damage to the Germans throughout the war.

Many Americans claim that France should be grateful to us, because without us, they'd by flying the Swastika. To that I say: We should be greatful to them, because without the French, we would be flying the Union Jack (or some variation of it; the 13 colonies probably would be part of the same federation as what we know to be Canada, and part of the Commonwealth).
You make this sound like a bad thing.
I say "YIELD TO JOHN BULL!"

Well, what can I say to that? We're a nation of nomads, refugees, and outcasts. We are a caustic people and we like to speak our minds no matter how insane our thoughts.

It is indeed too bad that "the right to free speech" seems to be interpreted as "if I say something it must have value, regardless of content or facts".

No they deserve them for mistreating their immigrant communities and claiming one of the world's highest standards of living for themselves while leaving the vulnerable to rot in tower blocks.

Now, with THAT I agree.

Hey! You told us we were your best friends! I'm never invading Iraq with you again.

Nono - a representative of the American people told the French they were the best friends of the USA ;)

Of course, I am still waiting for the Americans to come forward with examples of French mocking Americans. No doubt there will be huge amounts.

Now, with THAT I agree.



Nono - a representative of the American people told the French they were the best friends of the USA ;)

Of course, I am still waiting for the Americans to come forward with examples of French mocking Americans. No doubt there will be huge amounts.

*feels incensed*

The constant French-bashing "jokes" from Americans- especially Busheviks, is tangible evidence of Goebbels's Propaganda Theory in action. Repeat an exaggeration or outright lie enough times to enough people and eventually it will be accepted by the masses as truth.

Only the most contemptuous ultra-nationalist jingo would believe such a crock of shit, and frankly the blanket generalization pisses on the French who fought throughout history, especially those who were part of the resistance against the Nazi Occupation.

If the rest of the world ever started on a "American Soldiers are all rapists and babykillers" jokes on a scale on parity with the francophobia that's been aged well like wine in America, you'd see a whole bunch of Americans whining and pissing about them.

The constant French-bashing "jokes" from Americans- especially Busheviks, is tangible evidence of Goebbels's Propaganda Theory in action. Repeat an exaggeration or outright lie enough times to enough people and eventually it will be accepted by the masses as truth.

Only the most contemptuous ultra-nationalist jingo would believe such a crock of shit, and frankly the blanket generalization pisses on the French who fought throughout history, especially those who were part of the resistance against the Nazi Occupation.

If the rest of the world ever started on a "American Soldiers are all rapists and babykillers" jokes on a scale on parity with the francophobia that's been aged well like wine in America, you'd see a whole bunch of Americans whining and pissing about them.
Yes because both Goebbels and Bush own the Comedy industry.

Yes because both Goebbels and Bush own the Comedy industry.

And you miss the point completely. Then again you probably don't want to get it in the first place.

:rolleyes:

An interesting tidbit of historical trivia.

During the 100 years war (I believe,) the English longbowmen were having their way with the French. When the French would catch an archer, they's cut off his first two fingers so that he could never pull a bow again.

This is said to be the origin of the British two-fingered salute. Englishmen would mock their enemies by showing they still had their fingers.

[end threadjack]

I like the French, and O'Reilly is a jerkwad for calling them our enemies.

And you miss the point completely. Then again you probably don't want to get it in the first place.

:rolleyes:
Oh i understand perfectly.

An interesting tidbit of historical trivia.

During the 100 years war (I believe,) the English longbowmen were having their way with the French. When the French would catch an archer, they's cut off his first two fingers so that he could never pull a bow again.

This is said to be the origin of the British two-fingered salute. Englishmen would mock their enemies by showing they still had their fingers.

[end threadjack]

I like the French, and O'Reilly is a jerkwad for calling them our enemies.

Nope;

http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.htm

:p

Well, if any of you are interested...I have a french rifle for sale. Its never been shot...only dropped once.

Nope;

http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.htm

:p
genius

The constant French-bashing "jokes" from Americans- especially Busheviks, is tangible evidence of Goebbels's Propaganda Theory in action. Repeat an exaggeration or outright lie enough times to enough people and eventually it will be accepted by the masses as truth.

Only the most contemptuous ultra-nationalist jingo would believe such a crock of shit, and frankly the blanket generalization pisses on the French who fought throughout history, especially those who were part of the resistance against the Nazi Occupation.

If the rest of the world ever started on a "American Soldiers are all rapists and babykillers" jokes on a scale on parity with the francophobia that's been aged well like wine in America, you'd see a whole bunch of Americans whining and pissing about them.

Or maybe they are jokes, and jokes are funny. If you don't find them funny, then don't laugh. I can't believe people are so politically correct and lost their sense of humor. Of course the jokes aren't true. They are based around stereotypes. Thats what is so funny about them. By the way, i know some jokes about dead babies and having sex with babies, as i am sure many people on this forum know some racist jokes or what not. They are jokes. Get over it. Stop bitching.

i have taken the pee out of france for some time it is fair to say i hate the french however i do like the country, my hate of the frence is born from history and my past experiences with french people (also fair to say there arnt all bad eggs in a basket but they flavour the omlette). with my dealings with the french people i have been greeted with bile and outright hate simply becouse im english! before this i knew of the english french ''relationship'' but i thought/ hoped that died after ww2.
in short i will end my hatred and micky taking if there is positive action from france to end all the hate they have for england untill that is done i do not see why i should lay my hatchet down.
my main points of of arguemnet are :
1.the french spat upon the allied forces when entering certan parts of france
2.even after the war the english are veiwed with distain
3.while supposedly being allies in the irack war the french ''alegedly'' gave details of how to down a airplaine http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/thescotsman01.htm <for details
4.dispite requests the french still will not fully aid to stop the influx of refugees into england
5.even at euro disney the hate is present and shown against the english (personal experience)
6.both the english government french government and german are trying to ram the fraggin euro down our necks!
::points made::

7. the desacration of the war deads graves in normandy (so much for being thankfull)

{and the :P was a mistake its ment to read :: Points made :: before anyone thinks im making light of this :rolleyes:

1.the french spat upon the allied forces when entering certan parts of france
Source please.

2.even after the war the english are veiwed with distain
And what do you base that on?

3.while supposedly being allies in the irack war the french ''alegedly'' gave details of how to down a airplaine http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/thescotsman01.htm <for details
a) I don't think that source is particularly reliable. It would be nice if you could get the relevant reports from the NATO or US Defense Websites.
b) The agent responsible for the leak is not the French army major arrested last October for suspected spying offences at NATO headquarters in Brussels. He was released without charge earlier this week.

4.dispite requests the french still will not fully aid to stop the influx of refugees into england
Ahem...once they are in the EU, they can go wherever they want. It's not France's job to serve Britains Xenophobic tendencies.

5.even at euro disney the hate is present and shown against the english (personal experience)
Can't say anything about that, other than that you probably misunderstood - theme park staff are not encouraged to hate their customers.

6.both the english government french government and german are trying to ram the fraggin euro down our necks!
And you wouldn't want that because...

Well, if any of you are interested...I have a french rifle for sale. Its never been shot...only dropped once.
Best one yet.

7. the desacration of the war deads graves in normandy (so much for being thankfull)
Desecration?
I have a relative on a French cemetary, so I'm very interested in that story.

Best one yet.
Well, just look up the 90th US Division in its first few days after landing...they had their commander removed because the entire division was too scared to fight. The forward units ran away, and the rest refused to move.
They started to call it "the problematic division"...

i have taken the pee out of france for some time it is
...[illiterate rubbish snipped]...
::points made::

I've never noticed this attitude from the french against the english, maybe it's just the illiterate they dislike.

But you dont see me leaving with all the sheep jokes do you?
Don't you think that Sheep Jokes have a different connotation than Coward-Jokes?
But as you can read in my OP, a quick line is okay if it is meant in good fun...the majority of the time on here it isn't.

The Confederacy did fight on for a while after they had been split in half and then into Quarters well for a while.
So did the French in a few colonies and particularly DeGaulle. And don't forget the Resistance.

The thing with France is they have along history of this sort of stuff.
1870
1871 they surrendered because the population in Paris was starving to death, and because the rulers needed to gain back their power taken from the Communes. And besides, their army had pretty much been destroyed in Sedan.
The population (eg the Communes, as well as the Francs-Tireurs) wanted to fight on.

WWI their Soldiers refused to fight Offensive campaigns for a while.
As did British troops, and there were desertions on all sides. The French soldiers by the way often didn't say they just didn't want to fight, they just wanted their generals to present a few proper plans - rather than the tired old "frontal attack and lets hope we've got more dudes than they've got bullets".

Of course WWII
See above.

Dien Behn Phu.
Again, there were rather pressing reasons for the surrender - after three months of fighting, with the Viet Minh holding the high ground and using artillery, and having superior numbers (something like 25,000 against 3,000) the French were defeated.

Sure its the staple diet of the American Comedian and sure it may be over played a bit but meh...
But all I'm asking for is that people consider that they are bullshitting, and that all they will get in response is angry replies. It's just not worth overdoing it like this.

Nope;

http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.htm

:p

Snopes is usually pretty good, but they seriously and embarrassingly messed up there. While the origin of the two finger salute may be apocrypha, to say that the british longbowmen were considered so unimportant at the time is ridiculous. The longbowmen were the "top secret" weapon of the day and prized by the English and hated by the French and were in fact instrumental in the English upset at Agincourt. To equate a regular every day bowman with the highly trained (it took years to master and incredible strength...you try pulling a 60-80 pound pull bow scores of times in a row without shaking and losing your aim,) Welsh longbowmen is an unforgivable omission.

And to say that the heralds, whose job it was to turn battle into poetry (and make some change from grateful knights from either side,) accurately reported the battle! Ha! Like "non-chivalrous" acts didn't happen on the battlefield. Sheesh. I think the particular historian snopes consulted must have been a bit of an idealist.

Digging further on the "internets" I found page after page saying that the origin of the two finger salute isn't certain, but that it MAY have come from Agincourt (google it yourself.) For snopes to say definitively that it didn't originate there (while making some mistakes themselves,)without indicating where it DID come from is just shoddy work by them, and they usually do better.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A446465#footnote1

http://masseynews.massey.ac.nz/magazine/2002_Nov/stories/questions.html

http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/s655611.htm

what makes me laugh is how the americans (and others) continually bring up the french defeat in world war two. this is what i say to that: where was the US when france and the UK declared war on germany after the invasion of poland? dont mock france for being defeated when it was doing something very noble to help poland, which the US wanted no part of. surrender monkeys? how about isolationist monkeys?

Again, though, the US owes France a rather larger debt.
Meh, we repaid that debt with WWII...
how about isolationist monkeys?
I would actually wear that name with pride (Isolationism is the way to go!)

I don't see what all this fuss is about. France lost badly because they were not prepared for blitzkrieg. The RAF and RN stalled the Nazis until later on in the war so it never happened in the UK. I don't think it is the only reason people mock the french, traflagar, waterloo, battle of the Nile, Franco-prussian war, the pennisular war, Agincore, Algeria ,battle for India etc. Most of my native (UK) culture is based on anitfrankism (is that a word?). I think if you are French then, chin up your not the only ones being mocked,

-English, Yobbish (to Europeans), Bad teeth (to Americans)
- Scottish- overly patriotic towards scotland/tight fisted/drunk
- Welsh- bugger sheep
- Ireland-stupid
-Belgians-boring
-Dutch-Stoned,debauched, hippies
-Germans-Miltaristic/humourless
-Austria-Even more so
-Italy- human clothes horses
-Spain-Lazy
-Americans-Fat/bible-bashers/ Stupid (see "Ireland")
-Canada-dull
-Austrialia- uncouth
-South Africa (white) Sadistic
-South Africa (black) Rapists
-Mexico- Lazy- (see "Spain")
- Arabs/Turks- Untrustorthy dealers and/or terrorists
-Jews- untrustworthy/tightfisted
-Eastern Europians- unhygienic
-Poles- Slightly Mad
-Swedes-dour/suicidal
-Gypsies/Irish travellers- Thieves
-Russians- Drunken (see "eastern europian")
-Jamicans- Easy going
-Swiss-pedantic/bureauocratic
-Japanese- Miltaristic, workalholics
-Thailand- prostistutes
-Chinese- quiet and unassuming
- Indians/Pakistanis- Likley to open corner shops, Arranged marriges

We all get made jokes of from time to time, I'm not saying that any of these are true and they certainly aren't. So my advice is if you made a joke of, relax, what goes around comes around, a bit like a boomerang!

Im British, so i dislike teh french, they are rude abrasive, but that beside the point,

What do call 100,000 people with theyre hands up???

The french army!!!
:p

:fluffle: :sniper:

Yes, you French, you aren't the only nation that is made fun of. We Americans are made fun of too. Remember, we're stupid fat lazy bastards. You French, however, are cowards. That is the stereotype. Personally, I find it all funny as hell.

Im British, so i dislike teh french, they are rude abrasive, but that beside the point,

What do call 100,000 people with theyre hands up???

The french army!!!
:p

:fluffle: :sniper:

Don't worry. Much more of the planet dislikes 'British' people then the French. You'll always be number 1 to them ;)

Meh, we repaid that debt with WWII...

Wait...

So being the main reson that you have independence is repaid by doing very little while the French rise up after Normandy and take back most of their towns?

Wait...
So being the main reson that you have independence is repaid by doing very little while the French rise up after Normandy and take back most of their towns?
By that logic, I could also say that the French did very little while the colonists rose up and took over....in any case, I wonder what the catalyst was to get the French going was?

The Japanese are real men. If given the option to surrender they would obviously perform seipiku.

So people make jokes about the french. Get over it, most nations have their stereotypes and jokes. I don't care about any perceptions of the British/english, why should you?

I know every Brit isn't a tea drinking delightful middle-class eccentric or a cockney football hooligan, and I'm sure not every frenchman is a cheese eating surrender monkey. So why do you care about these stereotypes? Just learn to laugh at yourself for once. The world would be better for it if everyone had a sense of humour.

The Japanese are real men. If given the option to surrender they would obviously perform seipiku.

That would be "seppuku".

Grow a thicker skin. Most nationalities have an unpleasant stereotype. Deal with it.

The only sterotypes that fit what I know are the Dutch and Japanese ones. To say the Japanese are workaholics is an understatement from all reports back from people in Japan. And all the Dutch people I know are stoned, debaucherous hippies, maybe it is just a teen thing.

--snip--
We already lost Chellis (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=453720) because of too many surrender-jokes, and maybe a little more tact would be good in the future.


No, we "lost" Chellis because he was far too sensitive. I read the thread he moaned about, and the level of Francophobia was MINIMAL at best. Sorry, but this argument doesn't wash.

Better would be Napoleon, French colonialism, Lafayette...perhaps even the Avocet or the Mirage or even the Concorde or Airbus, but not the too-thin skin of someone who picked up his ball and ran home.

I never ever thought low of France because they surrendered alot; I think low of the French military because it always happens to screw up. They have done alot of good things (French observers helped Poland push back the Red Russians in the Polish-Bolshevik war of the early '20s.), but that's usually overshadowed by the fact that they have a rather hard time winning wars.

Perhaps, however you would have been given your autonomy freely in the same way Canada, Australia, Sotuh-African and New Zealand were. Thisis contrast to the French treatment of their colonies. Indo-China and Algeria....

Probably but if the King paid attention to our concerns, then we might've not risen up to oust the British monarchy.

We did all we can to resolve the situation peacefully (olive branch petition anyone) but the King wouldn't listen and did all he could to end the rebellion. This left us with our only option left and that was to declare independence and fight.

True. Of course, the case could be made that D-Day and the campaign through France kept the Soviets from overrunning and Communizing everything in their path- so, the US could be said to have kept the tricolour flying, rather than the Hammer and Sickle. Again, though, the US owes France a rather larger debt.

In World War One, General Pershing said "Lafayette, we are here" when the Americans landed on French Soil to assist the allies in defeating the Central Powers.

Then in World War II, we helped the allied powers liberate France from Nazi Germany.

SO I have to ask, how much debt is left to be paid?

Indeed. Without the defeat of Cornwallis by Rochambeau and Lafayette as well as the victory of de Grasse at the battle of the Chesapeake the USA would probably never have been formed.

The French helped in defeating Cornwallis at Yorktown but if it wasn't for the Colonial forces on land, the Brits would never have been surrounded on all sides.

And remember the words spoken by Cleveland when the statue of liberty was given as a French present:

"It is a token of the gratitude and appreciation of France, assuring us that in our efforts to commend to the world a government by a free people, we have a steadfast ally, and can demonstrate the kinship of republics".

I have a retort to this but I'm just going to say, yep he said this and at that time, it was actually true.

And now we have freedom fries. O Reilly stating that France deserves the riots for not joining the Iraq war. Jokes about how the French always surrender.

Ok, i'm going to have to ask for proof about the O'Reilly quote. I have never heard say this so prove it.

Well, if any of you are interested...I have a french rifle for sale. Its never been shot...only dropped once.

Now that's an old joke :D

But in all seriousness, sometimes the jokes can go to far and they have on numerous occassions.

I will admit that I'm guilty of this but then, I have to look at my heritage! I'm 15% French and that's no joke.

Or maybe they are jokes, and jokes are funny. If you don't find them funny, then don't laugh. I can't believe people are so politically correct and lost their sense of humor. Of course the jokes aren't true. They are based around stereotypes. Thats what is so funny about them. By the way, i know some jokes about dead babies and having sex with babies, as i am sure many people on this forum know some racist jokes or what not. They are jokes. Get over it. Stop bitching.

Well said Burn1Love.

No, we "lost" Chellis because he was far too sensitive. I read the thread he moaned about, and the level of Francophobia was MINIMAL at best. Sorry, but this argument doesn't wash.

There's far more jokes, flames, accusations, conspiracy theories, and other crap lobbed at the US on this forum than any amount of similar material about France (or any other country, for that matter). Probably the only other "groups" that gets as much crap piled on them are Muslims and Christians.

what makes me laugh is how the americans (and others) continually bring up the french defeat in world war two. this is what i say to that: where was the US when france and the UK declared war on germany after the invasion of poland? dont mock france for being defeated when it was doing something very noble to help poland, which the US wanted no part of. surrender monkeys? how about isolationist monkeys?

We didn't have treaties that obligated us to fight. Yes we were isolated and sometimes that is and isn't a bad thing.

However, there were factions in the US that wanted us to get involved sooner than we did. FDR was one of them. WHy do you think we had things like Lend-Lease? Even though it legally violated the Neutrality Acts, we were supporting the allies economically and giving them military hardware.

By that logic, I could also say that the French did very little while the colonists rose up and took over....in any case, I wonder what the catalyst was to get the French going was?

The Battle of Saratoga brought the French in against the British. Then the Spanish joined with the French against the Brits but not with the Americans. :D

For the French, they had the French Resistance that actually helped the Allies. Normandy set things in motion for the Allies to liberate France. In fact, it was De Gualle I think who took Paris.

We didn't have treaties that obligated us to fight. Yes we were isolated and sometimes that is and isn't a bad thing.

However, there were factions in the US that wanted us to get involved sooner than we did. FDR was one of them. WHy do you think we had things like Lend-Lease? Even though it legally violated the Neutrality Acts, we were supporting the allies economically and giving them military hardware.

yes, im aware of that, but i think the same people that would have wanted to stay out of the war would also be the ones calling the french cowards.

Aye, the Commonwealth. I mentioned that. Actually, that wouldn't be a bad fate- with the exceptions of South Africa and Australia, the Commonwealth countries are pleasant places to live. I wonder how the world would have changed if the 13 colonies had stayed part of the British Empire? Hm...


The British Empire probably would not have ended. If it had had access to the huge industrial might of America at the turn of the 20th century (plus the massive man reserves), I doubt any of the European powers would have been able to challenge Britain's position. Thus The First World War might not have involved Britain (or it might have been ended much quicker due to British intervention) and so Britain would not have declined (or not as quickly at any rate).

However, I agree that the Commonwealth would have come about. The orginal aim of the British Empire (in the eyes of the liberal statesmen who created it) was to bring nations like India up to speed (as it were) and then leave them. The theory was that nations would be so grateful to Britain that they would be bound to Britain by bonds of friendship and indebtedness (essentially the idea behind the Commonwealth). If we examine the 1890s, probably the point when Britain was at the pinnacle of its imperial power, we note that home rule was being granted to several countries - India was granted its own parliament, most of the white dominions (Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, Australia) were given autoonmy and home rule for Ireland was only a decade or so away.

Therefore, judging on the Empire's actions even before the rot set in, we can probably safely say that many of the more well developed nations would have been granted the sort of independence that Canada has today.

Interestingly though, the loss of Britain's American colonies prompted the British to concentrate much more on India. Perhaps if America had remained in British hands, then India would have been left either to the French or the Russians.

In World War One, General Pershing said "Lafayette, we are here" when the Americans landed on French Soil to assist the allies in defeating the Central Powers.

Then in World War II, we helped the allied powers liberate France from Nazi Germany.

SO I have to ask, how much debt is left to be paid?

I agree here completely. People also need to remember that although the French aided the american revolution in 1776, the French also went to war against the US in 1812 (called the 7 years war in europe).

I agree here completely. People also need to remember that although the French aided the american revolution in 1776, the French also went to war against the US in 1812 (called the 7 years war in europe).

7 years war was from 1756-63 :p

And actually Britain was at war with France in 1812, and he tied them down in Europe so that they couldn't send many forces to fight us in the war of 1812 (so it ended in a tie instead of a humiliating defeat). We did "fight' a "shadow war" with France in the early 1800's, with our privateers attacking their shipping and their privateers attacking our shipping, but we've never gone to war with France. When we were part of Britain we did, but the United States of America never went to war with France. Like how Canada never went to war with the United States, but Britain went to war with the United States, and it had Canada under it's control.

I agree here completely. People also need to remember that although the French aided the american revolution in 1776, the French also went to war against the US in 1812 (called the 7 years war in europe).

Whoa. Back up Jack. The 7 years war was NOT the war of 1812. The North American theater of the 7 years war was also known as the French and Indian war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Years_War

7 years war was from 1756-63 :p

And actually Britain was at war with France in 1812, and he tied them down in Europe so that they couldn't send many forces to fight us in the war of 1812 (so it ended in a tie instead of a humiliating defeat). We did "fight' a "shadow war" with France in the early 1800's, with our privateers attacking their shipping and their privateers attacking our shipping, but we've never gone to war with France. When we were part of Britain we did, but the United States of America never went to war with France. Like how Canada never went to war with the United States, but Britain went to war with the United States, and it had Canada under it's control.

:blush:

I must be getting old...It's been too long since college history:-)

I agree here completely. People also need to remember that although the French aided the american revolution in 1776, the French also went to war against the US in 1812 (called the 7 years war in europe).

When did the French go to war with us in 1812?

Are you talking about the French and Indian War that took place in the mid 1750s to early 1760s? That was what was called the 7 years war in Europe.

In World War One, General Pershing said "Lafayette, we are here" when the Americans landed on French Soil to assist the allies in defeating the Central Powers.

Then in World War II, we helped the allied powers liberate France from Nazi Germany.

SO I have to ask, how much debt is left to be paid?

Not being French or American, i'd say America did initially owe America a big debt, but it's being paid back. The problem is that some morons still harp on about saving France. If someone owes you some cash when in a bind, and they pay it back when you are suffering financial problems, you would be a bit confused and pissed off if they constantly pointed out "Yeah, well, I paid back that money when you needed it! You ought to be on your knees worshipping me for doing such a noble thing!"

Desecration?
I have a relative on a French cemetary, so I'm very interested in that story.
That one seems to be true: a few war graves were graffittied after Blair insisted on helping Bush invade Iraq.

That one seems to be true: a few war graves were graffittied after Blair insisted on helping Bush invade Iraq.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2907701.stm
Must be said though that most people don't agree with what happened their, especially not the government.
And I'm not sure about the time line, but it may have to do with the whole pouring French wine into the toilet etc movement.

At any rate, it's not excusable, but it still isn't a reason to declare that one hates all French people.

Don't you think that Sheep Jokes have a different connotation than Coward-Jokes?
But as you can read in my OP, a quick line is okay if it is meant in good fun...the majority of the time on here it isn't.

So did the French in a few colonies and particularly DeGaulle. And don't forget the Resistance.

1871 they surrendered because the population in Paris was starving to death, and because the rulers needed to gain back their power taken from the Communes. And besides, their army had pretty much been destroyed in Sedan.
The population (eg the Communes, as well as the Francs-Tireurs) wanted to fight on.

As did British troops, and there were desertions on all sides. The French soldiers by the way often didn't say they just didn't want to fight, they just wanted their generals to present a few proper plans - rather than the tired old "frontal attack and lets hope we've got more dudes than they've got bullets".

See above.

Again, there were rather pressing reasons for the surrender - after three months of fighting, with the Viet Minh holding the high ground and using artillery, and having superior numbers (something like 25,000 against 3,000) the French were defeated.

But all I'm asking for is that people consider that they are bullshitting, and that all they will get in response is angry replies. It's just not worth overdoing it like this.
Well i dont like the shit any nation is getting including the french about not going to Iraq becasue evidently we were right.

I am also more than happy to give grief to any American about WWII and WWI because to be perfectly honest they were'nt shit hot.

Desecration?
I have a relative on a French cemetary, so I'm very interested in that story.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4739159.stm <ww1 war memorials

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2907701.stm <for others

and as for literacy personaly i do not give a flying fig as to what some people do or do not think i would prefer the content of the point was argued not the state as to which it was given,i do get minorly aggreved and annoyed as well as make spelling mistakes but this is hardly a spelling competition it is however a site dedicated to oppinions from all people regardless of literal competance.
(i will also endevour to find some evidence to highlight my other points thankyou gentlemen and ladys)

There's far more jokes, flames, accusations, conspiracy theories, and other crap lobbed at the US on this forum than any amount of similar material about France (or any other country, for that matter). Probably the only other "groups" that gets as much crap piled on them are Muslims and Christians.

There's a difference, subtle as it may be, between calling the leader of a country (Bush,) a chimp and calling the French as a whole a "suppender monkeys". One involves specific criticisms that one is free to agree or disagree with, one involves a tired stereotype.

There's also a difference in relative power. As the world's lone superpower, we should expect criticism and and at least try to act like a big boy. Unfortunately, certain people (Bush ass-kissers,) construe any criticism of their beloved leader and his policies as "America bashing", and throw a hissy every time anyone says anything against his Chimpness.

Neu Leonstein Source please.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/431408.stm <only thing i could find besides aljazire making the same claims


Ahem...once they are in the EU, they can go wherever they want. It's not France's job to serve Britains Xenophobic tendencies. im not talking about the eu member stated im highlighting the other immagrants
Summary
1. On current trends we can now expect a net inflow to Britain of at least 2 million non EU citizens per decade. On present patterns, two-thirds will settle in London and the South East (look here) > http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/frameset.asp?menu=researchpapers&page=briefingpapers
/migration_trends/present_future_scale_of_migration.asp


Can't say anything about that, other than that you probably misunderstood - theme park staff are not encouraged to hate their customers.

not encouraged just that way inclined i hardly think welcome u english pigdogs is taught from walt disney

And you wouldn't want that because... : becouse quite frankly with all this i wouldnt want to me near france let alone even closer to it! and besides governments forceing thrugh something is a dictatiorship not an elected govenment like mr t blair thinks...

Must be said though that most people don't agree with what happened their, especially not the government.

At any rate, it's not excusable, but it still isn't a reason to declare that one hates all French people.
i dislike the fact that it happned... very true but my hate is based upon many other things as u can see im not trying to change anyones veiws on france just merely answer the possible question as to why the ''french'' jokes still persist
(i think there may be far more englishman irishman and scotsman jokes personaly all highly funny esp the umbooboo one gotta love it lol)

Can't say anything about that, other than that you probably misunderstood - theme park staff are not encouraged to hate their customers.

i had a similar experience and i dont think "f*ck you english" is easily misunderstood

i had a similar experience and i dont think "f*ck you english" is easily misunderstood
And did you lodge a complaint?

And did you lodge a complaint?

nah it wasnt a staff member just some french girl, and anyway i was like 12 at the time.

"France has neither winter, nor summer, nor morals. France is miserable because it is filled with Frenchmen and Frenchmen are miserable because they live in France." -- Mark Twain

"France has neither winter, nor summer, nor morals. France is miserable because it is filled with Frenchmen and Frenchmen are miserable because they live in France." -- Mark Twain

As long as we're quoting:

The best of America drifts to Paris. The American in Paris is the best American. It is more fun for an intelligent person to live in an intelligent country. France has the only two things toward which we drift as we grow older—intelligence and good manners.

As long as we're quoting:

that's the spirit! I was wondering if someone would catch on today.

I'm trying to post all of my stuff today as quotes.

Hear, hear.

By the time the French surrendered, they were screwed. Germany had pushed deep into French territory, France's armies were in chaos, and the French leadership was having flashbacks of the interminable horrors of WWI. Their surrender was completely unjustified. It's not even as though they took it lying down- Many of the French colonies kept up the fight, and partisans caused significant damage to the Germans throughout the war.


That's the point, they had to surrender. Hence why we mock them. I mostly mock them for the 'best' French soldiers being the FORIEGN legion.
US has Rangers/Seals
Aus has SASR
UK has SAS/Gurkhas
France has Foreign Legion

As long as we're quoting:

Huck Finn > Great Gatsby

'nuff said.

There's a difference, subtle as it may be, between calling the leader of a country (Bush,) a chimp and calling the French as a whole a "suppender monkeys". One involves specific criticisms that one is free to agree or disagree with, one involves a tired stereotype.

There's also a difference in relative power. As the world's lone superpower, we should expect criticism and and at least try to act like a big boy. Unfortunately, certain people (Bush ass-kissers,) construe any criticism of their beloved leader and his policies as "America bashing", and throw a hissy every time anyone says anything against his Chimpness.

1) There are plenty of America-bashers here who are anti-American, not just anti-Bush.

2) Calling Bush a Nazi is by extension calling America Nazi Germany. After all, if you call the elected leader of a country a moron, what does that make the people of the country who voted for him? Or as the Mirror said: "How can 59,000,000 people be so DUMB?"

But despite all that...

3) Anti-Americans the world over can collectively fornicate themselves for all I care. They're opinion doesn't matter to American policy, and riots make for entertaining TV.

Huck Finn > Great Gatsby
The Great Gatsby was rather dissapointing. But that quote isn't from The Great Gatsby. Its some other work, I think, as I read it two weeks ago.

So, should we start a thread about Poland now, to end all Polish surrender jokes? They charge Wermacht soldiers with horses, with good effect. I think Poles need more respect too.

"The hobgoblin of little minds is a foolish consistency."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

At least the French are capable of abstract cognitive thought, and know when to throw in the towel. :p

-Snip-
So I dedicate this thread to once more trying to clear France's name in the eyes of the American public (or the percentage of it that frequents NS General).



France is clear in my eyes. I understand they placed loads of resources and faith in the Maginot[maginote?] Line and when that failed things were looking like hell on earth for them. [ Lots of faith, I suppose.] I dont blaim them one bit for surrendering.

There are plenty of America-bashers here who are anti-American, not just anti-Bush.
Not that many...OceanDrive perhaps...SERBIJANAC doesn't come here anymore.

Calling Bush a Nazi is by extension calling America Nazi Germany.
Was Hitler a Nazi? What does that make me? What does that make Germans of the time?
Your point is stupid.

After all, if you call the elected leader of a country a moron, what does that make the people of the country who voted for him?
Or as the Mirror said: "How can 59,000,000 people be so DUMB?"
And are they not entitled to their opinion? We can't help it, we see this guy, who has not once in his time put together a proper, coherent political speech, who has everything he says and does planned by Rove, who has his political agenda written out by Cheney and co. and who makes the most outrageous comments.
Add to that a billion scandals, and the Iraq war - and you understand the disbelief that gripped me and presumably people in Europe when we saw what happened.

That's the point, they had to surrender. Hence why we mock them.
Completely ignoring the fact that there have been times that the french (or their predecessors) could lay claim to military dominance (sp?): Charlemagne, Napoleon (up until his blunder of relying to heavily on artillery, thusly costing him the battle of Waterloo)
As far as mocking them for surrendering when they had no choice, Americans have no perspective on this since a foreign war has never been fought on U.S. soil (not entirely true I know, there were land battles in the war of 1812)


I mostly mock them for the 'best' French soldiers being the FORIEGN legion.
US has Rangers/Seals
Aus has SASR
UK has SAS/Gurkhas
France has Foreign Legion
You point being? There are people who would not be American except for their having joined the military in the Rangers, Seals, Force Recon, Special Forces, and Delta Force. Also the French Foreign Legion was not made up entirely of foreigners, and even if it had been they were trained by the French, and led by French officers.
As far as the Gurkhas, many of them were Indian, so that makes the British army look bad? :confused:

Charlemagne, Napoleon (up until his blunder of relying to heavily on artillery, thusly costing him the battle of Waterloo)
Don't forget Louis XIV. He raped Europe a number of times.

Don't forget Louis XIV. He raped Europe a number of times.
Did actually forget about him :(

Well South Africa and Australia are perfectly nice as long as you're a white settler, having taken advantage of the native peoples...
The "13 Colonies" would be probably almost entirely protestant. Maybe the prolongued presence of the British could have led to a real American Front opening upon with the French in Louisiana during the Napoleonic Wars. Slavery would have been banned when Britain banned it, long before America did. Who really knows?

Right I'm going to leave the forums like Chellis because people keep criticising Australia

Aye, the Commonwealth. I mentioned that. Actually, that wouldn't be a bad fate- with the exceptions of South Africa and Australia, the Commonwealth countries are pleasant places to live. I wonder how the world would have changed if the 13 colonies had stayed part of the British Empire? Hm...


Well, there would be a few more Native Americans left :D. but they would be part of the commonwealth too, so they wouldnt be particularly happy asbout it.

French Surrender jokes are perfectly fine, the same way American ignorance jokes and British Tea/Silly hats/rediculous mustache jokes are fine. As long as no-one is malicious about it its just harmless fun. Although personally I prefer making mecanno jokes related to the eiffel tower and children having nothing to play with but themselves :D.

French surrender jokes are frankly tedious, and engendered by antipathy towards the French facilitated by jealousy and fraudulent, jingoistic propaganda. Granted, one may have harbour malign sentiments towards the French, however, were the nation of France to ridicule your nation, it would decryed as arrogant disdain, not humour, and one should accordingly cease.

I think low of the French military because it always happens to screw up.

Like in the first gulf war when on the first day they "lost" a whole division somewhere in the desert?
It must have been fun to be watching the command tent that day

"What do you mean you cant find our army? where did you last put it down? did you check behind the sofa?"



But then taking the piss out of british military cock ups is fun.

Take ishandlwana. Then look at rourkes drift. If you want something done, dont ask the generals :P

French surrender jokes are frankly tedious, and engendered by antipathy towards the French facilitated by jealousy and fraudulent, jingoistic propaganda.

So, this is all fraudulent?

Norse invasions, 841-911.
After having their way with the French for 70 years, the Norse are bribed by a French King named Charles the Simple (really!) who gave them Normandy in return for peace. Normans proceed to become just about the only positive military bonus in France's [favour] for next 500 years.

Mexico, 1863-1864.
France attempts to take advantage of Mexico's weakness following its thorough thrashing by the U.S. 20 years earlier ("Halls of Montezuma"). Not surprisingly, the only unit to distinguish itself is the French Foreign Legion (consisting of, by definition, non-Frenchmen). Booted out of the country a little over a year after arrival.

Panama jungles 1881-1890.
No one but nature to fight, France still loses; canal is eventually built by the U.S. 1904-1914.

Napoleonic Wars.
Should be noted that the Grand Armee was largely (~%50) composed of non-Frenchmen after 1804 or so. Mainly disgruntled minorities and anti-monarchists. Not surprisingly, these performed better than the French on many occasions.

Haiti, 1791-1804.
French defeated by rebellion after sacrificing 4,000 Poles to yellow fever. Shows another rule of French warfare; when in doubt, send an ally.

India, 1673-1813.
British were far more charming then French, ended up victors. Therefore the British are well known for their tea, and the French for their whine (er, wine...). Ensures 200 years of bad teeth in England.

Barbary Wars, middle ages-1830.
Pirates in North Africa continually harass European shipping in Meditteranean. France's solution: pay them to leave us alone. America's solution: kick their asses ("the Shores of Tripoli"). [America's] first overseas victories, won 1801-1815.

1798-1801, Quasi-War with U.S.
French privateers (semi-legal pirates) attack U.S. shipping. U.S. fights France at sea for 3 years; French eventually cave; sets precedent for next 200 years of Franco-American relations.

Moors in Spain, late 700s-early 800s.
Even with Charlemagne leading them against an enemy living in a hostile land, French are unable to make much progress. Hide behind Pyrennes until the modern day.

French-on-French losses (probably should be counted as victories too, just to be fair):

1208: Albigenses Crusade, French massacared by French.
When asked how to differentiate a heretic from the faithful, response was "Kill them all. God will know His own." Lesson: French are badasses when fighting unarmed men, women and children.

St. Bartholomew Day Massacre, August 24, 1572.
Once again, French-on-French slaughter.

Third Crusade.
Philip Augustus of France throws hissy-fit, leaves Crusade for Richard the Lion Heart to finish.

Seventh Crusade.
St. Louis of France leads Crusade to Egypt. Resoundingly crushed.

[Eighth] Crusade.
St. Louis back in action, this time in Tunis. See Seventh Crusade.

Also should be noted that France attempted to hide behind the Maginot line, sticking their head in the sand and pretending that the Germans would enter France that way. By doing so, the Germans would have been breaking with their traditional route of invading France, entering through Belgium (Napoleonic Wars, Franco-Prussian War, World War I, etc.). French ignored this though, and put all their effort into these defenses.

Seven year War 1756-1763
Lost: after getting hammered by Frederick the Great of Prussia (yep, the Germans again) at Rossbach, the French were held off for the remainder of the War by Frederick of Brunswick and a hodge-podge army including some Brits. War also saw France kicked out of Canada (Wolfe at Quebec) and India (Clive at Plassey).

The French consider the departure of the French from Algeria in 1962-63, after 130 years on colonialism, as a French victory and especially consider C. de Gaulle as a hero for 'leading' said victory over the unwilling French public who were very much against the departure. This ended their colonialism. About 2 million ungrateful Algerians lost their lives in this shoddy affair.

(SNIP)

The only time anyone ever bring up French historical defeats is to marginalize the French and reinforce racial stereotypes about the people as a whole. America got its ass kicked at Pearl Harbor but you don't hear about the French making Pearl Harbor jokes now do you?

[QUOTE=Deep Kimchi](SNIP)[QUOTE]

The only time anyone ever bring up French historical defeats is to marginalize the French and reinforce racial stereotypes about the people as a whole. America got its ass kicked at Pearl Harbor but you don't hear about the French making Pearl Harbor jokes now do you?

When I was in Belgium, I heard a Belgian make a joke about Pearl Harbor and how the US got caught by surprise.

At least I have a sense of humor.

*big snip*
You've posted that list before. Whats your point? Countries lose wars all the time.

Christ, rip into England for getting her ass handed to her by her colonies repeatedly, by a guy whos plan of action was to sit down!, and by the French themselves!!

Thats pathetic! England are much worse then losing then the French.

You've posted that list before. Whats your point? Countries lose wars all the time.

Christ, rip into England for getting her ass handed to her by her colonies repeatedly, by a guy whos plan of action was to sit down!, and by the French themselves!!

Thats pathetic! England are much worse then losing then the French.

That's a new list. I have the old list if you want to compare it.

Hmm... Haven't the Spanish lost a few to England?

That's a new list. I have the old list if you want to compare it.

Hmm... Haven't the Spanish lost a few to England?
England lost to a bunch of pacifists!

Even the French weren't that bad! :p

The French people have tremendous strength in them (cf. Charles de Gaulle, one of my role models) and it is a damn dirty shame that recent calamities (WWs 1 and 2, most notably) have poisoned their spirits.

England lost to a bunch of pacifists!

Even the French weren't that bad! :p

Hell, England lost to a bunch of untrained soldiers who didn't even know the word disipline :D

I agree with the original caller. To an extent. I would like to see Americans make "surrender monkey" jokes if it were them situated right next to Germany with a border massive in comparison to their population at a time when Germany was extremely powerful and they not, rather than how it is, with America seperated from Germany by an impossibly large ocean over which any kind of invasion would have been impossible.

Then again, the French were just bloody stupid before the war. They didnt take on board the lessons of the Spanish Civil War or even the invasion of Poland and move towards a system of tanks supported by planes and infantry. They didnt even extend the Maginot Line over the Belgian border, which had been used in the past by Germany to invade France (ie. WWI).

It was hardly inconceivable that they would do the same thing twice. And then Petain did surrender really rather quickly to create the Vichy, which the Germanys largely agreed to because they didnt have enough troops to occupy the entire of France and fight in the East, North Africa and Middle East at the same time. Ah well. Poor old French. Whether or not they are cowards, they never seem to do well in war...

The French people have tremendous strength in them (cf. Charles de Gaulle, one of my role models) and it is a damn dirty shame that recent calamities (WWs 1 and 2, most notably) have poisoned their spirits.

bah, de gaulle. Moody french git, we gave him refuge in the war and how did he repay us? By refusing to let the UK into the EU!

bah, de gaulle. Moody french git, we gave him refuge in the war and how did he repay us? By refusing to let the UK into the EU!
That's why I respect him. He had testicles so big he had to carry them in a suitcase. It's a shame Chuck Norris had to roundhouse kick him in the face in 1970.

I agree with the original caller. To an extent. I would like to see Americans make "surrender monkey" jokes if it were them situated right next to Germany with a border massive in comparison to their population at a time when Germany was extremely powerful and they not, rather than how it is, with America seperated from Germany by an impossibly large ocean over which any kind of invasion would have been impossible.

Then again, the French were just bloody stupid before the war. They didnt take on board the lessons of the Spanish Civil War or even the invasion of Poland and move towards a system of tanks supported by planes and infantry. They didnt even extend the Maginot Line over the Belgian border, which had been used in the past by Germany to invade France (ie. WWI).

It was hardly inconceivable that they would do the same thing twice. And then Petain did surrender really rather quickly to create the Vichy, which the Germanys largely agreed to because they didnt have enough troops to occupy the entire of France and fight in the East, North Africa and Middle East at the same time. Ah well. Poor old French. Whether or not they are cowards, they never seem to do well in war...