NationStates Jolt Archive

The French political response to the continuing riots has focused most on the need for more multicultural "understanding" of, and public spending on, the disenchanted mass in the country's grim banlieues (suburbs). What has been largely ignored has been the role of France's economic system in contributing to the current crisis. State-directed capitalism may seem ideal for American admirers such as Jeremy Rifkin, author of "The European Dream," and others on the left. Yet it is precisely this highly structured and increasingly infracted economic system that has so limited opportunities for immigrants and their children. In a country where short workweeks and early retirement are sacred, there is little emphasis on creating new jobs and even less on grass-roots entrepreneurial activity.

Since the '70s, America has created 57 million new jobs, compared with just four million in Europe (with most of those jobs in government). In France and much of Western Europe, the economic system is weighted toward the already employed (the overwhelming majority native-born whites) and the growing mass of retirees. Those ensconced in state and corporate employment enjoy short weeks, early and well-funded retirement and first dibs on the public purse. So although the retirement of large numbers of workers should be opening up new job opportunities, unemployment among the young has been rising: In France, joblessness among workers in their 20s exceeds 20%, twice the overall national rate. In immigrant banlieues, where the population is much younger, average unemployment reaches 40%, and higher among the young.

To make matters worse, the elaborate French welfare state--government spending accounts for roughly half of GDP compared with 36% in the U.S.--also forces high tax burdens on younger workers lucky enough to have a job, largely to pay for an escalating number of pensioners and benefit recipients. In this system, the incentives are to take it easy, live well and then retire. The bloat of privileged aging blocks out opportunity for the young.

Luckily, better-educated young Frenchmen and other Continental Europeans can opt out of the system by emigrating to more open economies in Ireland, the U.K. and, particularly, the U.S. This is clearly true in technological fields, where Europe's best brains leave in droves. Some 400,000 European Union science graduates currently reside in the U.S. Barely one in seven, according to a recent poll, intends to return. Driven by the ambitious young, European immigration to the U.S. jumped by 16% during the '90s. Visa applications dropped after 9/11, but then increased last year by 10%. The total number of Europe-born immigrants increased by roughly 700,000 during the last three years, with a heavy inflow from the former Soviet Union, the former Yugoslavia, and Romania--as well as France. These new immigrants have been particularly drawn to the metropolitan centers of California, Florida and New York.

The Big Apple offers a lesson for France. An analysis of recent census numbers indicates that immigrants to New York are the biggest contributors to the net growth of educated young people in the city. Without the disproportionate contributions of young European immigrants, New York would have suffered a net outflow of educated people under 35 in the late '90s. Overall, there are now 500,000 New York residents who were born in Europe (not to mention the numerous non-European immigrants who live, and prosper, in the city).


This article is great.

These riots are not the faults of society for being "racist", but rather being TOO tolerant and compassionate. France has done what the US has to its minority groups - its created a generation of welfare babies who blame everything on the government and take no responsibility for themselves. "Cultural understanding" and compassion will not fix such a problem.

I think this is better suited as an individual topic, as it adresses a completely different matter.

Thank you so much, the rioters would soon stop is sumary executions and decimations occurred.

These riots are not the faults of society for being "racist", but rather being TOO tolerant and compassionate. France has done what the US has to its minority groups - its created a generation of welfare babies who blame everything on the government and take no responsibility for themselves. "Cultural understanding" and compassion will not fix such a problem.
The fact that France has just enacted repressive laws originally designed for Algeria when it was a French colony (letting cities enact curfews, police search houses without a warrant, and the government deport foreign national found guilty of rioting) rather takes the weight out of your argument that France is being too compassionate.

Not to be patting my own country on the back, but it would appear to me that the only place multiculturalism has really worked and worked well is in Canada. However, I totally credit Pierre Trudeau for it working, because he had a vision, one of a just society and believed in it.

So as someone who lives in a very functional multicultural society such as Canada, it sometimes surprises me why others can't do what Pierre Trudeau was able to do and with such finesse.

The fact that France has just enacted repressive laws originally designed for Algeria when it was a French colony (letting cities enact curfews, police search houses without a warrant, and the government deport foreign national found guilty of rioting) rather takes the weight out of your argument that France is being too compassionate.

as does the fact that they have declared a state of emergency under which they can exercise all sorts of powers, which they didn't do even back in may 1968.

Not to be patting my own country on the back, but it would appear to me that the only place multiculturalism has really worked and worked well is in Canada. However, I totally credit Pierre Trudeau for it working, because he had a vision, one of a just society and believed in it.

So as someone who lives in a very functional multicultural society such as Canada, it sometimes surprises me why others can't do what Pierre Trudeau was able to do and with such finesse.

In France's case, I think it has to do with a xenophobic obcession to preserve "French culture" and keep it undiluted by anything foreign. I forgot what it was called but there's an academic or government institution that's dedicated to try and frankify everything and loathes invasions of foreign culture into mainstream French life.

Think of it as Quebec with independence and isolation for a few years and much bigger geographically.

Not to be patting my own country on the back, but it would appear to me that the only place multiculturalism has really worked and worked well is in Canada. However, I totally credit Pierre Trudeau for it working, because he had a vision, one of a just society and believed in it.

So as someone who lives in a very functional multicultural society such as Canada, it sometimes surprises me why others can't do what Pierre Trudeau was able to do and with such finesse.

It is remarkably different situation in Canada, and to an extent the USA, to that in Europe, since the North American states have no great state tradition and culture (please do not take offence, I will come to a point), nor any historical precedent of greatness. Moroever, since the majority of your populace, excluding the native indians, are immigrants, and not of considerable generations, therefore no inherently national group has developed. By contrast, the UK and France do have an extensive native populace, concurrent to degenerate immigrants who, for the most part, are third generation at the most, and who retain considerable vestiges of their previous cultures, and generally converse in distinctly un-British accents.
It probably does not help matters that the majority of immigrants and asylum seekers are despised, and apportioned quite justifiable blame for a plethora of problems, and postively discriminated in favour of. In short, we, the true populace of the UK, and France, merely tolerate immigration since we are incapable of resisting it, and utterly resent their presence,and they know it.

Multiculturalism:
the perverted dream of the deluded socialist
the pressing nightmare for the rest of us.

Not to be patting my own country on the back, but it would appear to me that the only place multiculturalism has really worked and worked well is in Canada. However, I totally credit Pierre Trudeau for it working, because he had a vision, one of a just society and believed in it.

So as someone who lives in a very functional multicultural society such as Canada, it sometimes surprises me why others can't do what Pierre Trudeau was able to do and with such finesse.
I know you don't want to hear this, and I know you'll deny it, but it really helps a country out when their neighbor and main trading partner is the most powerful government on the planet, with a bigger economy than the entire EU, with a military capable of protecting the entire continent.

If we had all that extra money, we could definitely cater to everyone like Canada. Not to put Canada down, I love the place. Second best country on earth. But lets be realistic here. A thank you would be nice.

Multiculturalism:
the perverted dream of the deluded socialist
the pressing nightmare for the rest of us.

So you're calling the United States and Canada socialist nightmares?

In France's case, I think it has to do with a xenophobic obcession to preserve "French culture" and keep it undiluted by anything foreign. I forgot what it was called but there's an academic or government institution that's dedicated to try and frankify everything and loathes invasions of foreign culture into mainstream French life.

Think of it as Quebec with independence and isolation for a few years and much bigger geographically.

Yes, I do understand that seems to be the logic on France's part. However Canada doesn't subscribe to the "melting pot" theory.

Although as you point out, Quebec gave us some serious problems back in the late 60's early 70's and then again in 1995. It has since stopped, while I admit there are still a few left over die hard separatists, but not many to speak of. Quebec has been given everything they've ever wanted to make them happy, it really is only a few compared to what it use to be. Quebec as I said in another thread is not going to leave Canada anytime soon, at least not in my lifetime that I can for see. But really they were only a problem in the 60's early 70's until Trudeau took power and stopped the violence almost immediately following one death. He imposed Martial law and ended it. It was over and we have never seen violence in Canada about it since, just a lot of empty threats of leaving that never come to pass.

Oh and not to say that France is small, but Quebec is huge! Largest province in Canada, geographically speaking.

Not to be patting my own country on the back, but it would appear to me that the only place multiculturalism has really worked and worked well is in Canada. However, I totally credit Pierre Trudeau for it working, because he had a vision, one of a just society and believed in it.

So as someone who lives in a very functional multicultural society such as Canada, it sometimes surprises me why others can't do what Pierre Trudeau was able to do and with such finesse.

It seems to work rather well in the US. If you consider that everyone here except the original natives came from somewhere else, or were descended from people who came from somewhere else, we're doing pretty well.

To go from a bunch of people who were considered "refuse" by their original countries, thrown out of every decent country in the world, to arrive in the US and grow it into one of the most powerful nations in history is doing rather well if you ask me.

Thats the french for you.

The fact that France has just enacted repressive laws originally designed for Algeria when it was a French colony (letting cities enact curfews, police search houses without a warrant, and the government deport foreign national found guilty of rioting) rather takes the weight out of your argument that France is being too compassionate.as does the fact that they have declared a state of emergency under which they can exercise all sorts of powers, which they didn't do even back in may 1968.

it does, however, add weight to the idea that they are dealing with them very poorly

France hasn't been able to do anything right since 1900.

A thank you would be nice.
:rolleyes: I don't know what to say to this. Don't go around asking for thank-yous from the world. That just plays right into their "Americans are arrogant" nonsense.

This article is great.

These riots are not the faults of society for being "racist", but rather being TOO tolerant and compassionate. France has done what the US has to its minority groups - its created a generation of welfare babies who blame everything on the government and take no responsibility for themselves. "Cultural understanding" and compassion will not fix such a problem.

I think this is better suited as an individual topic, as it adresses a completely different matter.

Yes, exactly, France is TOO tolerant and compassionate, which is why they passed a law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools, which forbade the use of hijabs in schools.

WTF are you talking about?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051111/ap_on_re_eu/france_where_are_the_parents__fr1

Highlights:

Some parents even blame the recent riots on a French law that prohibits them from hitting their kids, which they say renders them powerless to assert control.

"Life is very difficult here," Fatna said in Arabic. She, like her husband, is illiterate and doesn't speak French despite having lived here for more than 25 years.

Khaled, who dropped out of school after failing his high school exams, is unemployed. He worked for eight months and then stopped, but his mother said she didn't know what kind of job he had.

Parents complain their children don't listen to them, often lie and sometimes threaten to report the parents to police for abusing them if they can't have their way.

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"Life is very difficult here," Fatna said in Arabic. She, like her husband, is illiterate and doesn't speak French despite having lived here for more than 25 years.

WTF??

WTF??

That was my response. Her defense : "I don't go out". For 25 frickin' years!

So we have two illiterate parents of whom at least one doesn't speak the native tongue, with a drop-out, unemployed son now in prison and yet it's the Governments fault.

Olara']:rolleyes: I don't know what to say to this. Don't go around asking for thank-yous from the world. That just plays right into their "Americans are arrogant" nonsense.
I'll be the first one to admit that I'm arrogant.
It's part of my "Dumb, wife beating, alcoholic, fat, redneck American" image.

I also won World War 2 single handed, with nothing but a Bowie knife, and my trusty capitalist pig handbook! :cool:

I'll be the first one to admit that I'm arrogant.
It's part of my "Dumb, wife beating, alcoholic, fat, redneck American" image.

I also won World War 2 single handed, with nothing but a Bowie knife, and my trusty capitalist pig handbook! :cool:

Don't forget to throw in "cowboy w/ a gun" to that image.

:)

Don't forget to throw in "cowboy w/ a gun" to that image.

:)
I can't add that, because if I use cowboy AND redneck to describe myself, all the Liberals heads will explode.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051111/ap_on_re_eu/france_where_are_the_parents__fr1

Highlights:

Some parents even blame the recent riots on a French law that prohibits them from hitting their kids, which they say renders them powerless to assert control.

"Life is very difficult here," Fatna said in Arabic. She, like her husband, is illiterate and doesn't speak French despite having lived here for more than 25 years.

Khaled, who dropped out of school after failing his high school exams, is unemployed. He worked for eight months and then stopped, but his mother said she didn't know what kind of job he had.

Parents complain their children don't listen to them, often lie and sometimes threaten to report the parents to police for abusing them if they can't have their way.

SPARE THE ROD, SPOIL THE CHILD!

hehe

If anything this teaches us that you can't legislate multiculturalism and equality.

France has desperately tried to make its country friendly to immigrants, to adhere to its "all people are equal" foundations - and thus failed to address the differences between cultures.
You can't treat people like Fatima (her case isn't nearly as unusual as you might think) just the same as anyone else. She has special needs, for contact outside her kitchen, for language courses, for appropriate child care and pre-school facilities.
You can't make immigrants succeed, but you have to give them a fair chance.

That of course completely ignores the cultural issue of her husband maybe not appreciating her leaving the house (I know that in Hamburg there were many cases of that with the Turkish), and the issue of racism on the part of the French majority - that has to be addressed seperately, and hopefully it falls into place with time.

But I agree that France dealt with it poorly, by ignoring it to long, and not taking the kind of hard line that could have ended it much earlier. That doesn't mean executions and guns, but a proper police presence. It has gone on for two weeks - that would have done a lot of damage in the relationship between the government and those areas (particularly with those that didn't riot but had their stuff, and places of work, destroyed).

I can't add that, because if I use cowboy AND redneck to describe myself, all the Liberals heads will explode.

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

You say that as if it's a bad thing.
It is, because I'd be happy about the Liberals, but then I'd be surrounded by bible thumping conservatives!

I'm an equal opportunity hater!

You know, they could just put valium in the water. That would take care of this riot nonsense.

I can't add that, because if I use cowboy AND redneck to describe myself, all the Liberals heads will explode.

I can hear them now!

BOOOMMM!!!!!!!
Hahaaa!!!