NationStates Jolt Archive

Usually, when I talk about veterans, soldiers and the military in general, it's with praise, compliments, and a tear in my eye. Not so today. Today I'm going to try and give an unvarnished picture of the American combat veteran, warts and all.

To say that combat troops can be obscene is like calling the Incredible Hulk "somewhat miffed." Often, every thrid word is a cuss-word. If you took away what George Carlin refers to as "forbidden words," most of the combat soldier's vocabulary would disappear.

Combat soldiers can, indeed be indecisive. Just watch any new 2nd Lieutenant with a compass and map. This is one of the most dangerous things imaginable.

There is often tension between Commissioned Officers and Non-Commissioned Officers, usually because the latter know more than the former ever will.

Sometimes soldiers have to "interpret" orders from higher heaquarters. What this means is that they know the orders are stupid and would probably jeapordize the mission and get people killed. So they "interpret" them in such a way as to try and prevent that.

Soldiers aren't always nice to each other. This may come as a shock to those of us who have grown up watching Hollywood versions of barracks life. I have personally witnessed a group of soldiers grab a fellow soldier who was, shall we say, a bit slack about bathing, and scrub him down with scrub-brushes and strong soap. These were not your standard kitchen scrub-brushes with soft bristles. These were scrub-brushes with bristles like sharpened pencils. To say that the soldier so scrubbed "glowed" afterward would not be an overstatement!

Soldiers sometimes are the recipients of what is euphemistically called "friendly fire," which has to be the supreme oxymoron. This has given rise to a classic saying in the Infantry: "Recieving friendly-fire. Returning same with smile."

Soldiers sometimes get in trouble. I realize this may come as a complete shock to most of us, but it's true. They get drunk. They fight the "locals" and each other. They carouse with prostitutes [ shocked look ]. They even tell superior officers to go perform impossible acts upon their own bodies on occasion. I remember one "Article 15" [ non-judicial punishment ] written to charge a young man: Private [ insert name ] did violate article XII of Army regulation [ name of regularion ], on or about [ insert date and time ], to wit PVT [ name ] did extend the middle finger of his right hand and state, "Rotate on this awhile," or words to that effect, to his superior commssioned officer.

Being in combat makes many soldiers revert to pre-historic behaviors. In Vietnam, showers were hard to come by, so many of us would wait for the Monsoon to come by ( at about 4:30 every afteroon ) during Monsoon season, totally naked with a bar of soap in one hand and a washcloth in the other. Apparently some 500 or 600 men encamped just outside one of the larger base camps forgot ( or didn't know ) that the reigning Miss America and her entourage were due in at any time. Miss America and her entourage flew directly over almost an entire battalion of naked soldiers on their way into the landing pad. I've often wondered what her reaction was.

Yes, he's often obscene, sometimes indecisive, irreverent, abrasive, pugalistic, disrespectful, and naked, but I don't mind that at all. As far as I'm concerned he's earned all that and more. God bless him this Veterans Day and keep him safe.

Wait a minute! You mean they're human too? :eek:
I'm not religious by any means, but I'm sure enough of them are to warrant a "GOD BLESS THEM ALL"

Interesting :p

Support all veterans, no matter who they are, what they did. War is mostly a hellish thing and we need to take care of the people who went through it.

Reminds me of deer camp in a lot of ways. People will adapt their personalities and behavior to match their situation. But, surely they keep their pinkie fingers crooked as they pull a grenade pin?

We had a different life in the air wing. First, the war I fought was shorter and only the officers were the ones that were exposed to any enemy danger. The troops in the 'engine room' were the ones that kept the endless cycle of flight operations running smoothly.

In my squadron, and in most Navy and Marine squadrons, there just aren't enough troops to go around. We would go on port and starboard duty sections to cover all the maintenance that needed to be done. This was especially true for the plane captains. They had to be almost as sharp as the aircrew whenever they were around an airplane. A lot of bad things happen on flight decks and that's where the plane captains lived. It wasn't uncommon at all to find a Marine rolled up in ball, sound asleep in the shop.

The one thing I found that seems to be very different from you experience was that there was no insubordination. The difference is, I'm sure, that none of the troops were in any immediate physical danger from an enemy. Just the same old dangers that always lurked around the corner. I don't even recall any problems with my guys during liberty calls. I'd buy them a round at the first bar off the base, then we'd split up. Never did get called by any SPs to get one of my Marines out of jail.

I did have to break up a few fights in the shops, though. One night, I was sure I was going to have to put the heads of the powerplants and electric shop in hack. I walked into a 2 am shouting match between two stressed out techs and their bosses. Between me and the Gunny at Maintenance control, we managed to quiet them down before it became a brawl.

But there are always folks that just don't understand. I'm sure you've seen the real thing, but there is a decent 'blanket party' that's thrown in that Jack Nicholson/Tom Cruise movie about Gitmo. Can't remember the name. Lot more drama in that movie than in real life. We, the junior officers, did throw a blanket party for a comarade that just couldn't quite get with the program. He straightened up enormously after that.

Congrats and Best Wishes to all the Vets out there. I'll drink several for you tonight and I hope you'll do the same.

Very well said.

USN, NAC, RET (Disabled Vet)

Before I forget, to all the vets on this day and every day...

THANK YOU!!


I'm marinating a couple of t-bones for my vet.

Eut, yahoo.

I have no idea how to say this but I'm grateful to the veterans. For whatever reason they fought, they did fight and mybe got something good done in the world, I'll salute their bravery and hope we never need to again.

Semper fidelis

I'm marinating a couple of t-bones for my vet.
Lucky bastid! :D

Lucky bastid! :D

Last night I sang "Happy Anniversary" to the Marines as we ate delivery pizza. I'm off work today for the holiday, so I figured I would feed him something special.

I personally shook the hand of a World War Two veteran this rememberance day, and I would have to say that we owe these men our freedom and without them, we couldn't live the lives we do today. God bless these men who fought so bravely for us. Canada and all other free nations are in their debt.

This may be the best thread you've ever done, Eutrusca.

Thanks for your service.

This may be the best thread you've ever done, Eutrusca.

Thanks for your service.
Thank you for saying that. I would do it all again if I had to ... perhaps just a TAD differently though! :D

I personally shook the hand of a World War Two veteran this rememberance day, and I would have to say that we owe these men our freedom and without them, we couldn't live the lives we do today. God bless these men who fought so bravely for us. Canada and all other free nations are in their debt.

This may interest you:

Volunteer Pilots Ferry Aging Vets to DC

Associated Press | November 10, 2005
DAYTON, Ohio - Frostbite damage to his feet during World War II and a limp from a stroke prevented 81-year-old William Taylor from taking a commercial flight or driving to Washington see the nation's new memorial to veterans of the war. But Taylor managed to get there anyway.

He flew via Honor Flight - a program of free flights for World War II veterans, started by a former Air Force pilot.

Once a month, a caravan of small planes filled with veterans and flown by volunteer pilots makes its way from Springfield, Ohio, to the United States' capital and returns the same day.

If not for Honor Flight, Taylor probably would have never seen the memorial.

"I just sat there and looked at it. You just couldn't believe that you were there," he recalled. "It was really breathtaking."

The program was set up by 46-year-old Earl Morse of Ohio, who worried that physical or financial limits were keeping World War II veterans from making it to Washington. He saw that many were dying before they got a chance to see the memorial.

Pilots use their own planes or sometimes rent them. The program relies entirely on donations, with veterans groups contributing toward some expenses.

So far, 132 veterans have flown on the Honor Flights since the program began last spring, and there is a waiting list of 257. The flights have become so popular that Morse quit his job last month to devote himself to the project full-time.

"You get bitten by this, and you can't think of anything else," Morse said. "The window itself is good for another five to 10 years. After that, it's going to be a moot point because they're all going to be gone. This is their last hurrah."

Taylor, who got frostbite when he spent six months in a prison camp after being captured during the Battle of the Bulge in 1944-45, thought that being able to walk only short distances would exclude him from flights. But Morse made sure he was on the first flight in May, and even found wooden boxes for him to step on to get in the plane.

"I was overwhelmed," Taylor said.

Leonard Loy, who enlisted at 17 and served in the Navy in the Mediterranean and at Okinawa in the Pacific during the war, said he was overjoyed when Morse asked him if he wanted to go with him to see the memorial.

"I'm too old to travel, and the other thing is I can't afford it," said the 80-year-old Springfield man. "There were tears in my eyes when he asked me."

He said the memorial was beautiful. "I finally realized that we were finally honored," he said.

Only 3.5 million of the 16 million Americans who served during World War II are still alive. About 1,000 die each day.

An estimated 7 million people have visited the memorial - a circle of 50 granite pillars flanked by arches around a pool and fountains - since it opened in 2004. Many World War II veterans visit in wheelchairs, or with walkers, canes or crutches.

"We really think they should see that memorial before they pass on," said George Chekan, national president of the Veterans of the Battle of the Bulge Association. "It's a must-see."

Morse, who was a physician assistant for the Department of Veterans Affairs in Springfield, brought up the Honor Flight idea last January at a meeting of a recreational flying club. In a flash, he had 11 volunteer pilots and planes. The volunteer pilots have come from Ohio, Indiana, Michigan and North Carolina.

"The intent of the flight is to thank them," said pilot Chris Sullivan, 36, of suburban Beavercreek, Ohio. "It seems a little weird that they're so thankful."

Morse has suspended the flights until April because the cold weather can be a hazard for the small planes and there is less daylight for the flights.

Demand has been so great that Morse began buying seats on jetliners flying out the Dayton airport. He calls those Guardian Honor Flights, since he sends guardians to help the veterans tour the memorial.

Thank you Eutrusca, I'm glad that people like that are still around to care about the veterans of past wars. I urge people to go out and see a Rememberance Day ceremony around their area, and shake the hand of a vet, that shows them that what they did meant something to you.

I have no idea how to say this but I'm grateful to the veterans. For whatever reason they fought, they did fight and mybe got something good done in the world, I'll salute their bravery and hope we never need to again.
Amen. Amen.

"We didn't want another memorial. What we wanted was an end to the need for memorials." - said by a veteran about the Vietnam Memorial.

I'm guessing most of us have veterans in our family. My British grandfather spent six years of his life fighting in WW2, in France, North Africa and Italy. He died two years ago. He was a good man. I've always had the utmost respect and admiration for him. My French grandfather also fought in WW2, though he spent most of it as a POW in Germany.

It's good from time to time to remember the honour, courage and sacrifices of anyone who's had to face the horrors of war. Whatever the motives of those who start wars, even if they're senseless, those who actually fight them almost all deserve respect.

I'm guessing most of us have veterans in our family. My British grandfather spent six years of his life fighting in WW2, in France, North Africa and Italy. He died two years ago. He was a good man. I've always had the utmost respect and admiration for him. My French grandfather also fought in WW2, though he spent most of it as a POW in Germany.

It's good from time to time to remember the honour, courage and sacrifices of anyone who's had to face the horrors of war. Whatever the motives of those who start wars, even if they're senseless, those who actually fight them almost all deserve respect.
I agree, and thank you for saying so. :)

"We didn't want another memorial. What we wanted was an end to the need for memorials." - said by a veteran about the Vietnam Memorial.

And that, to me, is one of the single most true uttereances ever spoken.

I never served (sever asthma). But you OP describes those I know who served and the honest writtings of those who have served which I've had the pleasure of reading.

Here's to the soldier, be he good, bad, indecisive, irreverent, abrasive, pugalistic, disrespectful, naked, or worse. He's been in harms way in my stead.

And that, to me, is one of the single most true uttereances ever spoken.

I never served (sever asthma). But you OP describes those I know who served and the honest writtings of those who have served which I've had the pleasure of reading.

Here's to the soldier, be he good, bad, indecisive, irreverent, abrasive, pugalistic, disrespectful, naked, or worse. He's been in harms way in my stead.
:fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

Eh? Veterans' Day? What is Veterans' Day? I assume it's some USian thing, but would someone mind explaining to me what it's all about (aside from the obvious)? Does it entail anything in particular, or is it just a general "we like them old soldier dudes" type thing?

There is often tension between Commissioned Officers and Non-Commissioned Officers, usually because the latter know more than the former ever will.

Sometimes soldiers have to "interpret" orders from higher heaquarters. What this means is that they know the orders are stupid and would probably jeapordize the mission and get people killed. So they "interpret" them in such a way as to try and prevent that.

ah, don't you just love the imaginary worlds those higher up in a hierarchy must live in?

question: when reporting back after following some cleverly interpreted orders, is it ever made clear exactly how much interpretation was done?

ah, don't you just love the imaginary worlds those higher up in a hierarchy must live in?

question: when reporting back after following some cleverly interpreted orders, is it ever made clear exactly how much interpretation was done?
Very, very seldom indeed, particularly if the mission was somehow accomplished. :D

Time Catching Up to WWI Vets

Associated Press | November 11, 2005
WASHINGTON - Lloyd Brown remembers Armistice Day in 1918 as few - ever so few - veterans can.

"For the servicemen there were lots of hugs and kisses," recalls Brown, of Charlotte Hall, Md., a teenage seaman aboard the battleship USS New Hampshire, in port stateside when the fighting stopped. "We were so happy that the war was over."

Now 104, Brown adds, "There's not too many of us around any more."

No one knows exactly how many of America's World War I veterans will celebrate Veterans Day, which marks the armistice of Nov. 11, 1918, that ended what then was considered the Great War. An estimated 2 million Americans served in Europe after the U.S. entered the war in 1917.

Today, the Veterans Affairs Department lists just eight veterans as receiving disability benefits or pension compensation from service in World War I. It says a few dozen other veterans of the war probably are alive, too, but the government does not keep a comprehensive list.

The Census Bureau stopped asking for data about those veterans years ago. Using a report of 65,000 alive in 1990 as a baseline, the VA estimates that no more than 50 remain, perhaps as few as 30.

World War I, fueled by intense nationalism and conflicting economic and colonial interests, began in the Balkans in 1914 and quickly spread across Europe because of military alliances. The major allied powers were Great Britain, France and Russia, and they were opposed by Germany, Austria-Hungary and a few others.

The U.S. remained neutral even as Germany threatened its shipping and as anti-German sentiment grew among Americans. Congress declared war on Germany in April 1917 at the urging of President Woodrow Wilson. "The world must be made safe for democracy," Wilson said.

More than 10 million troops died before the war ended with Germany's surrender. Of the U.S. troops, more than 116,000 died and more than 200,000 were wounded.

Long-lived veterans are common among America's warriors. The last veteran to fight in the American Revolution died at age 109 in 1869, according to Defense Department statistics.

Other wars and the ages of their last veterans the year they died: the War of 1812, 105, 1905; the Indian Wars, 101, 1973; the Mexican War, 98, 1929; the Civil War, 112, 1958; and the Spanish-American War, 106, 1992.

The ranks of all World War I veterans grow thinner as the months pass. One of France's seven remaining veterans died two weeks ago, and the last Australian to serve in a war zone died a week earlier.

In the U.S., the last known American veteran wounded in the war died at 108 in January 2004. West Virginia's last veteran passed away in October 2004, and Iowa lost its only remaining Great War veteran two months later. An Alabama veteran of the war died last March at 110.

With each death, what was called "the war to end all wars" fades in American memory.

"It's a war that's out of mind," says Sean Flynn, who teaches World War I history at Dakota Wesleyan University in Mitchell, S.D. "The U.S. entered it late and we have no real connection to it."

Unlike the wars that followed, World War I doesn't have the visual record so important to becoming part of American consciousness, Flynn says. Yet its impact can be linked to many problems facing the world today, including conflict in the Balkans and the rise of Arab nationalism that occurred after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

"We learn about war through television and through film," Flynn says. "There's just not a lot of moving-picture footage of World War I. There's no visual image there for the public to identify with."

Lloyd Brown spends little time thinking about the days his ship escorted convoys in North Atlantic waters threatened by German submarines. Living alone in a house in southern Maryland, just a few blocks from his daughter, Nancy, he does not believe that his war has been forgotten and feels satisfied with the attention paid to its veterans over the years.

"You can't celebrate World War I year after year after year, because there are other events taking place," says Brown, who watches the news each day to keep up with the world. "You have to honor them."

The 173rd Airborne Brigade was one of the units with which I served in Vietnam, as a Company Commander. Great bunch of guys to have on your side, and LORDY they could play! :D

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6631/thirdherd4yb.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Lt. Col. Michael Shinners, commander of the 173rd Airborne Brigade rear detachment, and Bobby Wooldridge, first sergeant of the brigade’s headquarters company, lead a formation of Sky Soldiers in saluting nine comrades who died during the brigade’s year in Iraq.

Military imposters on the rise, says expert

By Joe Mandak
Associated Press


PITTSBURGH — One man wore a Marine Corps colonel’s uniform and spoke at a Memorial Day celebration. The other dressed as a major at a Marine Corps League dinner.

A federal prosecutor says neither man had earned those stripes.

A military records expert says the number of alleged impostors, like the two western Pennsylvania men charged this week, is growing.

“The more our guys come back from Iraq, the worse it gets,” said Mary Schantag, who runs the POW Network out of her Skidmore, Mo., home with her husband, a Vietnam Marine veteran.

This week, U.S. Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan charged two Pittsburgh-area men with impersonating Marine Corps officers, a misdemeanor that carries up to six months in prison and a $5,000 fine.

Buchanan alleges John A. Eastman, 58, of New Galilee, dressed as a major at a suburban VFW post last November. Albert T. McKelvey, 68, of Richland Township, dressed as a colonel and spoke at a Memorial Day observance in May, she said.

Both men have military records, but neither attained the rank they represented, said Buchanan, who wouldn’t comment further. The National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, didn’t immediately respond to a request for their records.

The Associated Press couldn’t locate a home telephone for Eastman; McKelvey didn’t return repeated messages.

Robert Munhall coordinates 20 American Legion posts in Pittsburgh’s North Hills suburbs and is a longtime friend of McKelvey’s. He confronted McKelvey for wearing the colonel’s uniform at a Memorial Day observance three years ago because McKelvey’s rank has been disputed for a decade.

“Mr. McKelvey is an honest-to-goodness Marine,” Munhall said. “He explained to me that he had done some classified stuff and blah, blah, blah, there wasn’t a good paper trail even though he did earn the rank.”

Munhall said he’s sympathetic, but “he can’t wear something he doesn’t have the paperwork to back up.”

Department of Veterans Affairs officials couldn’t say how often people pretend to be veterans; the agency tracks only people who try to fraudulently obtain veterans’ benefits, said spokesman Jim Benson.

“Obviously, it’s not something you like to see people do, to take away from the honor and respect that veterans have earned,” Benson said.

Schantag and her husband, Charles, started their nonprofit network 16 years ago to track the service records of Vietnam POWs. Shortly after posting them on the Internet, the POW Network started receiving calls from relatives and neighbors of those claiming to be left off the list.

Schantag said records she got from the St. Louis center showed nearly all those claims were bogus, and now she spends much of her time investigating service claims.

“In 1998 we got 22 reports and 21, I think, were fake. Now I get about 22 a week,” Schantag said.

Last year, six women said they were romanced by a man who claimed to be a Navy SEAL. The man turned out to be an insurance adjuster.

Federal prosecutors in New Jersey charged a 58-year-old man with wearing military decorations at a funeral for a 25-year-old Marine. The man apologized and surrendered his paraphernalia after it was revealed he had never been in the service.

“In 99.9 percent of the cases, they are exaggerating, forging, faking or outright lying about their service records,” Schantag said. “They’re leaving our guys with the pain and the nightmares, and they’re out there on the front page taking the credit. A lot of these times, the Navy SEAL was an Army cook.”

Interesting :p

Support all veterans, no matter who they are, what they did. War is mostly a hellish thing and we need to take care of the people who went through it.


I agree, though most republican politicians don't seem to...

From the Tacoma News Tribune, 6/29/05

"Republicans Voted Against Veterans' Health Care FIVE TIMES This Year, Despite Warnings of Budget Shortfall. Before the Department of Veterans Affairs announced a $1 billion budget shortfall earlier this year, Senate Republicans voted twice against $1.98 billion for veterans' health care, while also opposing a proposal to increase veterans' health care funding by $2.8 billion. And last month, Republicans said "no" to keeping veterans' health care funding in line with inflation and population growth. These votes all came despite at least five warnings from Sen. Patty Murray that the proposed federal funding for veterans' programs would not be enough to cover costs."

Happy Veteran's Day!

I agree, though most republican politicians don't seem to...

From the Tacoma News Tribune, 6/29/05

"Republicans Voted Against Veterans' Health Care FIVE TIMES This Year, Despite Warnings of Budget Shortfall. Before the Department of Veterans Affairs announced a $1 billion budget shortfall earlier this year, Senate Republicans voted twice against $1.98 billion for veterans' health care, while also opposing a proposal to increase veterans' health care funding by $2.8 billion. And last month, Republicans said "no" to keeping veterans' health care funding in line with inflation and population growth. These votes all came despite at least five warnings from Sen. Patty Murray that the proposed federal funding for veterans' programs would not be enough to cover costs."

Happy Veteran's Day!
I know. Most politicians, of whatever stripe, talk big when it comes to telling veterans their sacrifice will be remembered, but fall short when it comes to keeping their end of the bargain. Sad, but true. :(

Bump just 'cause! :D

my grandpa flew B52 bombers in Vietnam, I hope that all the remaining vets have a fabulos day and know that people are still thankful for what they did.

Happy Veterans' Day

Before I forget, to all the vets on this day and every day...

THANK YOU!!


I'll second that!

There are a lot of articles honoring the veterans of older wars, but there are veterans being made every day.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/nov2004/a111604a.html

This is a woman from my hometown. She's a little older than me, but I was in classes with her younger sister, was taught trigonometry by her mother, and she was a senior student who helped teach my brother martial arts.

FORWARD OPERATING BASE SALERNO, Afghanistan, Nov. 29, 2004 –– Not far from the jagged, mountainous terrain of the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, a fortified helicopter base keeps a vigilant watch for terrorist activity. A sandstorm looms ever so close to the base, rendering flight operations to that of essential purpose only.

However, there is still time to give a rookie helicopter crew chief a chance to practice shooting one of the door mounted machine guns over a nearby firing range. But there is one striking difference between this door gunner and others within the tight-knit group of crew chiefs in Marine Light Attack Helicopter Squadron 773 presently at Forward Operating Base Salerno – the rookie is a female.

Marine Lance Cpl. Kay Barnes, a 30-year-old reservist originally from Richmond Hill, Ga., performs a walk-around final check of her UH-1N Iroquois “Huey” gunship.

As an extra precaution from falling out of the helicopter, she straps a gunner’s belt to her desert-clad body armor and fastens the clip to the floor of the aircraft.

Barnes admits that when deciding on a career in the Marine Corps Reserve, she didn’t want something that she could do just as easily in the civilian world – she wanted combat. Now that her squadron has been mobilized and deployed to Afghanistan, she’ll probably get her chance.

“I didn’t see (myself) sitting around while my country was going to war without me,” said Barnes.

It wasn’t the images of jetliners going through the twin towers that made her answer the call. She said watching her country going to war on television, knowing she had an opportunity to be a part of it and do something useful, took her to the local recruiting station in Athens, Ga.

...

“I didn’t expect a vacation out here. I expect to perform as part of a team and accomplish missions as they arrive,” she said.

“They told me when I checked into my squadron they didn’t care if I were male or female, as long as I could carry a 50-caliber,”said Barnes. The GAU-16 50-caliber machine gun weighs approximately 65 pounds.

...

“A crew’s a family,” said Marine Sgt. Eric “Sideshow” Sharp, HMLA 773 crew chief. “(Pilots) rely on us to back them up on the gauges, and we rely on them to shake the sticks right and keep us out of the dirt.”

...

However, Barnes isn’t the first female door gunner in the Marine Corps, nor the first at Salerno.

Humbly, she admits she has rather large shoes to fill with some of the now combat veteran female door gunners that her detachment relieved.

Not yet engaging the enemy, she said she doesn’t know what type of emotions she may bring back from the crosshairs of her machine gun. She doesn’t feel particularly “uptight” about the possibilities, she’s more concerned about her performance in the aircraft and ensuring she never does anything to jeopardize her fellow crewmembers.

For now, more range time is prescribed before she’ll get that chance.
“As far as I’m concerned, the bad guys have it coming,” she said. “If it’s in the best interests of America, then it’s in my best interests.”

Ok, I cut some things out and that still ended up being really long.... Oh well.