NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm talking not just about tuition, but about these 'differential fees'. I know they are already a fact in many, many post-secondary institutions, but they are a very recent addition to the University of Alberta. Last year, they were voted in, under the table-like...and now a law degree is DOUBLE what it was the year before. DOUBLE! IN ONE YEAR!

If tuition went up that much in a year, you'd think there would be riots...but a differential fee, which caused the doubling, raised few eyebrows. I don't think people understood what it was.

Tuition was originally about $4500 per year, regardless of what faculty you entered. Now each faculty can add on a differential fee (again, I realise this is already the case in many institutions, bear with me), and most of them have choosen to start at an extra $4000 per year, for a grand total of $8500 a year.

I've been saving for my kid's education. With the little I can put away each month, I'll have $20,000 each by the time they're old enough to attend a post-secondary institution. Even that, I realised, by then, would maybe cover two years at the most. Now, with this increase, and future increases (they can increase tution and the differential fees by a certain HIGH percent each year), I realise that by then, $20,000 will likely not even cover a single year.

JESUS WEPT! And post-secondary is supposed to be accessible because 'you can always get a loan'??? A loan that is going to cost you as much as a house in a few years? Are you kidding? Might as well work on the damn rigs than get into that kind of debt! WTF! And these fees are total bullshit...the faculties did JUST FINE BEFORE. They limit admission, and work with the tuition funds they had...now suddenly they need double just to make it? BULLSHIT!

I'm talking not just about tuition, but about these 'differential fees'. I know they are already a fact in many, many post-secondary institutions, but they are a very recent addition to the University of Alberta. Last year, they were voted in, under the table-like...and now a law degree is DOUBLE what it was the year before. DOUBLE! IN ONE YEAR!

If tuition went up that much in a year, you'd think there would be riots...but a differential fee, which caused the doubling, raised few eyebrows. I don't think people understood what it was.

Tuition was originally about $4500 per year, regardless of what faculty you entered. Now each faculty can add on a differential fee (again, I realise this is already the case in many institutions, bear with me), and most of them have choosen to start at an extra $4000 per year, for a grand total of $8500 a year.

I've been saving for my kid's education. With the little I can put away each month, I'll have $20,000 each by the time they're old enough to attend a post-secondary institution. Even that, I realised, by then, would maybe cover two years at the most. Now, with this increase, and future increases (they can increase tution and the differential fees by a certain HIGH percent each year), I realise that by then, $20,000 will likely not even cover a single year.

JESUS WEPT! And post-secondary is supposed to be accessible because 'you can always get a loan'??? A loan that is going to cost you as much as a house in a few years? Are you kidding? Might as well work on the damn rigs than get into that kind of debt! WTF! And these fees are total bullshit...the faculties did JUST FINE BEFORE. They limit admission, and work with the tuition funds they had...now suddenly they need double just to make it? BULLSHIT!
Don't you guys have something like this?

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourcesContent/0,13964,32674,00.html

I mean, it's not like your kids would be in harm's way. The Canadian military hasn't gotten into a war in decades and isn't likely to do so any time soon.

It's disgraceful, I agree.

Don't you guys have something like this?

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourcesContent/0,13964,32674,00.html

I mean, it's not like your kids would be in harm's way. The Canadian military hasn't gotten into a war in decades and isn't likely to do so any time soon.
Are you kidding? Just because we haven't been in an all out war doesn't mean our military doesn't see action...including the reserves. Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, to name only two...plenty of kids who took the military route to get their tuition paid got more than they bargained for. *shudders*

Don't you guys have something like this?

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourcesContent/0,13964,32674,00.html

I mean, it's not like your kids would be in harm's way. The Canadian military hasn't gotten into a war in decades and isn't likely to do so any time soon.


Right.

No Canadians are serving or have served in Afghanistan or the Balkans. Indeed, that unit citation from the US to JTF2 for their actions at Tora Bora was a figment of my imagination...... as were the coffins that came home.

In other news, the Canadian soldiers injured by that IED in Afghanistan last month also don't really exist.

:rolleyes:

I got into $26,000 in debt the first time around...and my first year's tuition was $1500. By my fourth year it was $3000. A kid going in now, with these kinds of fees, would be looking at about $40,000. That's pretty damn scary debt. I suspect there will be a lot fewer kids just taking Arts degrees that don't guarantee them high-paid employment. And that's sad.

Don't you guys have something like this?

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourcesContent/0,13964,32674,00.html

I mean, it's not like your kids would be in harm's way. The Canadian military hasn't gotten into a war in decades and isn't likely to do so any time soon.

*sigh*

Please don't remind me of my own nation's absurd priorities.

8 trillion dollar deficit, most of it due to military spending...where shit and giggles is spent on medicine and education...

Are you kidding? Just because we haven't been in an all out war doesn't mean our military doesn't see action...including the reserves. Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, to name only two...plenty of kids who took the military route to get their tuition paid got more than they bargained for. *shudders*
Oh, I wasn't aware that Canada was involved in Yugoslavia. I guess I just forgot about Afghanistan. Sorry.

Do you or your spouse (if applicable) have a tuition reimbursement program at whatever jobs you work? My father's union has a program like that -- they match the cost of up to 18 credit hours per semester and we get that money back, so that we can cover all the other financial rapings.....

Right.

No Canadians are serving or have served in Afghanistan or the Balkans. Indeed, that unit citation from the US to JTF2 for their actions at Tora Bora was a figment of my imagination...... as were the coffins that came home.

In other news, the Canadian soldiers injured by that IED in Afghanistan last month also don't really exist.

:rolleyes:
Sorry dude. People do forget things from time to time.

Oh, I wasn't aware that Canada was involved in Yugoslavia. I guess I just forgot about Afghanistan. Sorry.
Canadian troops have also been involved in every peacekeeping mission to date. We've always got troops somewhere, in hairy situations. In short, I would not be encouraging that route as a 'free ride', or even a good choice. Becoming a tradesperson is a lot less dangerous, and more profitable. F*ck post-secondary...it's becoming a way to keep the rich, rich, and the poor poor.

That pretty much sucks, I'll agree.

Since we had five children ( three were hers from a previous marriage ), I decided early on that I would have to urge them to concentrate on alternative ways of getting a degree other than my simply paying for it. Seems to have worked, since four of the five have at least an undergrad degree. It helped that we live in dear old Nawth Ca'lina, since the State has a really, really great system of higher education campuses and some mechanisms for student loans that make it pretty easy to get enough to pay for college.

Sorry about the hidden increases though. Perhaps you can band together with other concerned parents and get things changed? Worth a shot anyway. :)

Simonist']Do you or your spouse (if applicable) have a tuition reimbursement program at whatever jobs you work? My father's union has a program like that -- they match the cost of up to 18 credit hours per semester and we get that money back, so that we can cover all the other financial rapings.....
No. Neither of us do. We have grants and bursuries available...but they haven't been upped to meet these new costs. $500 is better than nothing...but it won't even cover your text books.

Sorry dude. People do forget things from time to time.
I forgive you, but only because you don't tend to shit on Canada:)

Education is for sissies.

Schools in the US (especially Illinois) have been doing this for years. They advertise thier "low" tuition and then people discover the "fees" when they apply. My old school hasn't raised tuition for some time but every year, fees get jacked up and more added on.

It's a nice scam they've got going.

Sorry about the hidden increases though. Perhaps you can band together with other concerned parents and get things changed? Worth a shot anyway. :)
What really pisses me off is there was a 'study' on tuition costs, and they deliberately did not survey students. When challenged on this, the guy in charge scoffed, "Of course students are going to compain it's too high...but these are the people who are, upon graduation, going to run out and get into $30,000 debt buying a new car!":rolleyes: Yeah, makes perfect sense.

Education is for sissies.
You left out 'rich'.

No. Neither of us do. We have grants and bursuries available...but they haven't been upped to meet these new costs. $500 is better than nothing...but it won't even cover your text books.
If it weren't for the fact that I know you won't take this seriously, I wouldn't even say it, but.....become an auto worker! Build great muscle on a day-to-day routine! Feel like a real member of a winning team! Great benefits (actually, that part's true....I'ma gonna get my tonsils taken out soon and we'll have $100 out of pocket), awesome pay (true as well; my father makes upwards of $68K a year, which is actually about average for FAMILY income in my area), and REAL CHANCES for improvement! Make a difference in your life!
...I do believe I may have a future in advertising to fall back upon....

Canadian troops have also been involved in every peacekeeping mission to date. We've always got troops somewhere, in hairy situations. In short, I would not be encouraging that route as a 'free ride', or even a good choice. Becoming a tradesperson is a lot less dangerous, and more profitable. F*ck post-secondary...it's becoming a way to keep the rich, rich, and the poor poor.

Sounds like the deregulation of tuition fees at some universities... the price just skyrockets with no explanation as to why.
I wonder how long it'll be before people run through universities, torching them. Seriously. Someone's going to go crazy, because there's SO MUCH stress on students to achieve, and to come out with debt enough that could have been spent on a house for the rest of their lives... it's ridiculous.
I've been lucky, in that my university hasn't done those things yet, and I've been able to pay all of my education by working. But I know a lot of people aren't in that situation now. Massive debt is the norm.

Canadian troops have also been involved in every peacekeeping mission to date. We've always got troops somewhere, in hairy situations. In short, I would not be encouraging that route as a 'free ride', or even a good choice. Becoming a tradesperson is a lot less dangerous, and more profitable. F*ck post-secondary...it's becoming a way to keep the rich, rich, and the poor poor.


More so since grants were done away with in favour of loans only - at least in Ontario anyway.

Still, I worked my way through University and came out 30K in the hole. but I also got a few scholarships that helped and also ensured that I got into a program that offered a co-op option. This I cannot stress enough as something to look into. It took me 8 months longer than the non-co-op program, but I graduated with two years of relevant work experience and - more importantly - two job offers.

The ancillary fees are also not as high as what you talk about at many universities. At least - not yet. Alberta is, after all, not the best representative of progressive ideals in the country.

BTW, this week is McLeans' yearly university ranking issue and they include a lot of details on financials. Might be worth your picking up a copy to get a better handle on the trend country-wide.

Education is for sissies.


Or, as uneducated people more commonly refer to the educated, it's for the people you get to call "Boss"

Simonist']If it weren't for the fact that I know you won't take this seriously, I wouldn't even say it, but.....become an auto worker! Build great muscle on a day-to-day routine! Feel like a real member of a winning team! Great benefits (actually, that part's true....I'ma gonna get my tonsils taken out soon and we'll have $100 out of pocket), awesome pay (true as well; my father makes upwards of $68K a year, which is actually about average for FAMILY income in my area), and REAL CHANCES for improvement! Make a difference in your life!
...I do believe I may have a future in advertising to fall back upon....

That's great until the rich guys who can afford university tuitions and fees find ingenius ways to replace all grunt workers with automation.
Seriously, Canada is forcasting a MAJOR need for trade workers, but I don't know how long that will last, if they find ways to automate everything.

The ancillary fees are also not as high as what you talk about at many universities. At least - not yet. Alberta is, after all, not the best representative of progressive ideals in the country.

BTW, this week is McLeans' yearly university ranking issue and they include a lot of details on financials. Might be worth your picking up a copy to get a better handle on the trend country-wide. Maybe I will, actually...maybe I should just go to UBC. Though I know there is a very, very expensive law school in Montreal that makes the U of A look like a charity school by comparison...frick.

What really pisses me off is there was a 'study' on tuition costs, and they deliberately did not survey students. When challenged on this, the guy in charge scoffed, "Of course students are going to compain it's too high...but these are the people who are, upon graduation, going to run out and get into $30,000 debt buying a new car!":rolleyes: Yeah, makes perfect sense.
[ "goofball-o-meter" goes off! ] Sigh. :(

Seriously, Canada is forcasting a MAJOR need for trade workers, but I don't know how long that will last, if they find ways to automate everything.
There are many things they will never be able to automate. (at least in my lifetime, I hope!) However, this construction boom can't last forever. And at some point it will implode, and all these trade workers will be competing for shit jobs. My husband looks at it this way...enjoy them money while you can, pay off your debts (mortgage and so on) as quickly as possible, and prepare for the worst. I agree. And sometimes getting into huge debt just so you can have a degree that may or may not get you anywhere, well it's not always a good choice.

Maybe I will, actually...maybe I should just go to UBC. Though I know there is a very, very expensive law school in Montreal that makes the U of A look like a charity school by comparison...frick.


UBC is a great school. The main disadvantage is Vancouver housing costs.

Just curious, but given that I understand that you are of native heritage - are their any federal programs geared towards first nations kids that you can take advantage of?


EDIT: note that many such bursaries are univerity-dependant. For example, a quick google turned up the follwoing list at Lakehead:

http://bolt.lakeheadu.ca/~calendar/current/contents/financial_aid/finaidnati.html

While obviously you cannot COUNT on scholarships, they should definitely be part of your exploration of options.

After my first year I got merit scholarships that pretty much covered my books the rest of the way through - and I certainly went the used-book route on many occassions.

Tuition is already insane in the US...why aren't you people freaking out about it? $28,000 a year in some places? WTF!!!!

To me, the outrageous cost of college was simply another motivator in my quest to earn a merit scholarship. Sure, it would be great if all kids could have a free college education available to them, but that won't happen as long as there are new bombs to be built, countries to be invaded, and Alaskan bridges to be built. Hell, we've got people actively campaigning to return our education process to the level it was in the Dark Ages...within a few generations it won't matter how expensive college is, because only like 4 kids in each graduating class will be able to sign their own name.

UBC is a great school. The main disadvantage is Vancouver housing costs.

Just curious, but given that I understand that you are of native heritage - are their any federal programs geared towards first nations kids that you can take advantage of?
I don't want to relocate my family, frankly:(

And no, there are no federal programs for me, or 70% of Natives who live off Reserve. You have to live on Reserve, and have attended a Reserve school in order to get any post-secondary funding. I can apply for certain specific bursuries and grant, which may help a bit, but I'm pretty much in the same boat as anyone else.

So is this the goal then? To make education inaccessible via greedy and tuition hikes? To make sure there is an 'educated elite', thereby making these people more valuable through scarcity ? Maintaining a huge middle to lower class? I find it sickening that we put so little into our education system...and we will reap what we sow...what are the options? Can we eschew this system and create post-secondary co-ops? They may not have the prestige these huge insitutions do to begin with...by why can't we take our education into our own hands? This is really pissing me off!

There has got to be some way someone could, for example, take an engineering degree (unrecognised) through a post-secondary co-op, with professors who are qualified engineers etc, renting facilities to do experiments and etc when necessary....and then do some sort of challenge at the end to get accreditation...ARGGHH I don't know...there has to be some alternative!

The answer is yes. In both the medical community and the law community there is a general sentiment of keeping out the riff-raff. They want to keep the amount of people in their profession relatively small so they can keep prices up. For most practicing doctors outside of a few fields, things like organic chemistry courses are a complete wast of time since they will never actually use that knowledge. However it is a serious bitch to pass and is responsible for causing the most amount of drop-outs among premeds.

This is in the US of course, so I'm unsure if there is a direct correlation to Canada, but I'd imagine so.

The answer is yes. In both the medical community and the law community there is a general sentiment of keeping out the riff-raff. They want to keep the amount of people in their profession relatively small so they can keep prices up. For most practicing doctors outside of a few fields, things like organic chemistry courses are a complete wast of time since they will never actually use that knowledge. However it is a serious bitch to pass and is responsible for causing the most amount of drop-outs among premeds.

This is in the US of course, so I'm unsure if there is a direct correlation to Canada, but I'd imagine so.
I agree...the Faculty of Law at the University I'm hoping to attend (welcome back...give us more of your money you stupid git!) only admits 175 students per year. The limit can not be purely financial...especially now that tuition has doubled. It is artificial to keep demand up.

So is this the goal then?

Depends on who you ask.

To make education inaccessible via greedy and tuition hikes?

No, I would say the goal of many is to make education just barely possible for most people...to push the upper limit of how much can be charged, such that people are still willing to try for it. This way you can squeeze the most money out of parents and students.

To make sure there is an 'educated elite', thereby making these people more valuable through scarcity ?

Oh, that's just a happy side-effect, wherein we limit the number of pesky smart people. See, here in America we don't like smart people. They do things like tell us to stop poluting, use fancy math to show that you can't get rich by spending more than you earn, and explain that stem cells aren't actually microscopic babies. They also tell our Most Holy King George that he's full of crap, and that's called treason.

Of course, we put up with smart people because they give us better computers and toys, and because they provide all the medical technology that allows us to extend our willfully ignorant lives. But we aren't about to respect or value the smart people...we just like to exploit them and then insult them at cocktail parties.


Maintaining a huge middle to lower class? I find it sickening that we put so little into our education system...and we will reap what we sow...what are the options?

Options? There are two: 1) start prioritizing education, or 2) resign ourselves to the fact that America is going to dwindle into irrelevancy in the relatively near future. Plus China is going to own us.


Can we eschew this system and create post-secondary co-ops? They may not have the prestige these huge insitutions do to begin with...by why can't we take our education into our own hands? This is really pissing me off!

There has got to be some way someone could, for example, take an engineering degree (unrecognised) through a post-secondary co-op, with professors who are qualified engineers etc, renting facilities to do experiments and etc when necessary....and then do some sort of challenge at the end to get accreditation...ARGGHH I don't know...there has to be some alternative!
I wish I had something helpful to give you. :(

Well, all I can say is do your best to learn the system and work to minimize costs.

But if you have 20K at the start, plus access to some bursaries, plus part-time work, plus what you can send in a monthly stipend to help out your kids (what you used to put away each month towards education plus what they used to cost you living at home - especially if you had a teen boy insured on a car plus his eating habits and activities), then they should be able to make it through without going too deep into debt.

So maybe they won't be able to afford to have a car while studying, to party every single weekend, to live in a bigger and cooler apartment, to have a brand new computer each year, etc. etc.

But they WILL have an education - and that is the whole point of the exercise.

I wonder how much the following things affect this issue:

a) young students just leaving secondary school to attend post-secondary, have little comprehension of the kind of debt they are about to get into. It isn't real to them, not really, because the majority of them haven't been living on their own and learning about the cost of living, so they don't bother to complain.

b) people just accept high tuition fees as inevitable, and don't bother complaining.

c) the wider public is not really aware of just how expensive post-secondary education, and believe the official line that education is very accessible, so they don't complain.

Or maybe I should just start paying for music lessons now, so when my kids finish secondary school, they'll be able to TEACH music...at a rate that matches, and sometimes exceeds my own wage, by the way...and find other avenues for a REAL education (I'm sorry, but a lot of the classes, or profs at Universities are irrelevant...and you learn more just by reading the text than they actually bother to teach you). Frick...you'd at least think the standards for teaching excellence at the post-secondary level would be higher, given the huge hikes in tuition.

I wonder how much the following things affect this issue:

a) young students just leaving secondary school to attend post-secondary, have little comprehension of the kind of debt they are about to get into. It isn't real to them, not really, because the majority of them haven't been living on their own and learning about the cost of living, so they don't bother to complain.

b) people just accept high tuition fees as inevitable, and don't bother complaining.

c) the wider public is not really aware of just how expensive post-secondary education, and believe the official line that education is very accessible, so they don't complain.


Frankly, people here have got the same "LOWER MY TAXES" mantra going that exists to our south. I think they just heard it to often.

And if you aren't either a college student (who doesn't earn enough to pay taxes anayway) or their parents - then you might occassionally give lip service to education but are more likely to scream that you want $10 extra on each paycheque.


Ever heard any of these Child-Free activist people bitch and moan about the fact that a portion of their property taxes go to schools? "I don't have kids. What the hell do I need to pay for schools for?" Ummm, because you used them asswipe - now pay up.

Universities in Canada are not for-profit the way they are in the states. If the fees are going up it is because thier costs are, and because the government subsidies have fallen in comparison.

What you need to do is spend more time bitching to your elected officials about it. And getting other people to bitch too!

a) young students just leaving secondary school to attend post-secondary, have little comprehension of the kind of debt they are about to get into. It isn't real to them, not really, because the majority of them haven't been living on their own and learning about the cost of living, so they don't bother to complain.


i had to take out loans to pay for my education and im only halfway through. tuition rises $500 every semester as part of an 8 year "reconstruction plan." its rediculous that we have to pay so much money. ill definately be in a LARGE debt.

education is encouraged, yet people have to pass it up because lack of money, or they can get loans and become lost in a pile of debt. (this is where i wish i made better grades in highschool to get a scholarship)...

UBC is a great school. The main disadvantage is Vancouver housing costs.

Just curious, but given that I understand that you are of native heritage - are their any federal programs geared towards first nations kids that you can take advantage of?


EDIT: note that many such bursaries are univerity-dependant. For example, a quick google turned up the follwoing list at Lakehead:

http://bolt.lakeheadu.ca/~calendar/current/contents/financial_aid/finaidnati.html

While obviously you cannot COUNT on scholarships, they should definitely be part of your exploration of options.

After my first year I got merit scholarships that pretty much covered my books the rest of the way through - and I certainly went the used-book route on many occassions.

That's the university I go to, and yes, there are a LOT of scholarships for native students. It's almost frustrating looking through the undergrad scholarships for stuff you can apply for as a "majority" white male... because a lot of the awards are for natives and/or women, or other "minority" groups.
I put those things in quotes, because I hate terms like minority and majority, because they're not entirely truthful. Women aren't a minority by any means, as the world has roughly 50% women. :P

Oh, I wasn't aware that Canada was involved in Yugoslavia. I guess I just forgot about Afghanistan. Sorry.

Canada is actually involved in more peacekeeping missions than all other nations combined at the moment. Granted, some are one person observer units, but others, like Afghanistan, Sudan, and Haiti, have quite a few troops.

Or maybe I should just start paying for music lessons now, so when my kids finish secondary school, they'll be able to TEACH music...at a rate that matches, and sometimes exceeds my own wage, by the way...and find other avenues for a REAL education (I'm sorry, but a lot of the classes, or profs at Universities are irrelevant...and you learn more just by reading the text than they actually bother to teach you). Frick...you'd at least think the standards for teaching excellence at the post-secondary level would be higher, given the huge hikes in tuition.

As nice as it would be if all of the uni profs cared to do a good job, they're not hired for their teaching abilities. They're hired for research purposes, and in exchange for having research facilities at their disposal, they have to teach. By the university level, people are no longer guided by teachers, as they had their hands held in highschool. As an adult learner, you have to take some initiative to do the work, and take responsibility for your own success. That being said... yeah, it's hard to wade through some of that stuff, and it would be nice to always have good profs who could clearly explain what the heck the textbooks are talking about. :P

A possible alternative...

A return to the apprenticeship program!

I would like to be an architect someday. Like medicine and law, there are few post-secondary institutions in Canada that offer the program,and they all accept very few applicants per year.

And they are all expensive.

Consequently, I pursued a different path:
first, I went to a CEGEP in Quebec (a sort of post-secondary education halfway between high school and university) and received a certificate (or was it a diploma? whatever...) in Architectural technology. I now work in an architectural firm, and in a few years, when the kids are in school, I plan to take night courses through the RAIC, a federal licensing body for Canadian architects. While I take these, I can continue working during the day. In fact, to be eligible for the program, I have to work for an architect.

10 years and $10 000.00 later, I should be an architect, and debt free.

Perhaps there is something like this for law in Canada?

Good luck, Sinuhue. I share your worries with respect to my children's education.

Tuition is already insane in the US...why aren't you people freaking out about it? $28,000 a year in some places? WTF!!!!

I'm not freaking out because, frankly, I don't mind being in debt for a good education. I went to a school where, by the time I graduated, tuition was about $21,000/year (fees included). I could have gone to the state school where it would have been about $8000/year (and that's where I am now), with most of it covered by various grants and scholarships, but going there for undergrad would have been a bad idea for me, basically because they shit on their undergrad students. I got what I paid for - small classes, interaction wth my professors, good programs, etc.

So, I got what scholarships I could - one from the institution, one from the state, a grant from the state that I am to pay back by working here, two or three outside scholarships (only a year), a semester-long scholarship internally. And what wasn't covered there, I got in student loans (which are currently in deferment until I get out of grad school. I also worked as a Supplemental Instructor (sort of like a TA) from my sophomore year onward and took a co-op job during my time in school in which I worked every other semester for about a year. My grad school, up until the end of this year, has been paid for by a fellowship.

I don't mind paying these things because I want the education - plain and simple. Higher education isn't for everyone, but I knew I could handle it and I knew I wanted to do it, so I found a way. If we really want to know what is pushing the fees upward so quickly, we might want to look to the fact that society is pusing for *everyone* to go to higher education, instead of allowing for the fact that many people shouldn't - and there is nothing wrong with jobs that don't require college degrees.

So is this the goal then? To make education inaccessible via greedy and tuition hikes? To make sure there is an 'educated elite', thereby making these people more valuable through scarcity ? Maintaining a huge middle to lower class? I find it sickening that we put so little into our education system...and we will reap what we sow...what are the options? Can we eschew this system and create post-secondary co-ops? They may not have the prestige these huge insitutions do to begin with...by why can't we take our education into our own hands? This is really pissing me off!

Great thread Sinuhue, you're talking about exactly what's been pissing me off for the last several months. Though tuition may be going up, I don't think its fair to claim that less people are accessing education. Universities have been adding spaces that are filling up. More people are getting educated that's for sure, but it is accompanied by a huge debt load.

Anyway, I'm in my second year if a science degree at UBC, and while I'm lucky enough to have my parents fund me completely, I've noticed a strange phenomenon:

The large-scale improvement and expansion of physical facilities, accompanied by a decrease in the quality of education we recieve.
UBC is right now engaged in a buiding spree. Huge new faculty buildings are going up with state-of-the-art research facilities, labs, and fancy new halls, and politician-infested ribbon-cutting ceremonies. If there is money for this, than why has our tuition gone up so much? why are there people sitting on the floor in some of my classes? it just does not make sense to me. the priorities of the university management are in all the wrong places, it seems - they care more about keeping up this front of prestiege that giving their own students a break.

Also, there's these huge (privately owned/developed) condo and housing developements on university land going up. I suppose this is where the univeristy is getting all the money it no longer gets from Gordon Campbell. Campbell, as well as the federal Liberals (watch for this in Ralph Goodale's upcoming mini-budget) seem to thing that greater accesability is equal to bigger loans that are easier to qualify for. They don't seem to get that instead of sitmulating the economy buying houses cars, graduates will spend half their working lives paying off the loans.

Education is an INVESTMENT goddam it! Why won't government and universities INVEST in us, instead of USING us!?

Or, as uneducated people more commonly refer to the educated, it's for the people you get to call "Boss"
They are sissies too.

As nice as it would be if all of the uni profs cared to do a good job, they're not hired for their teaching abilities.

That really depends on the university. I went to a university that was not a research institution for my undergrad education. The professors there were hired (and tenured) based on teaching abilities.

Of course, it was a private school, and I had to pay quite a bit for it.

You left out 'rich'.
Yes. Education is for the rich transvestites who are also sissies.

What are differential fees supposed to be for, anyway? What is the logic behind allowing them?

The answer is yes. In both the medical community and the law community there is a general sentiment of keeping out the riff-raff. They want to keep the amount of people in their profession relatively small so they can keep prices up. For most practicing doctors outside of a few fields, things like organic chemistry courses are a complete wast of time since they will never actually use that knowledge. However it is a serious bitch to pass and is responsible for causing the most amount of drop-outs among premeds .Meh. That may be true, but since when are universities (at least undergrad degrees) proffesional training schools? They are turining into such, much to my dismay, but in theory, universitites are places of earning and researc. If you want a job, go to trade school. I think its fair to expect a certain degree of knowledge ouside the realm of the purely practical for people going into medicine. I'm currently taking just such an organic chem course, and to be honest, I don't see what the big kerfuffle is about - yeah, it's challenging, but if you study a little there's no grat difficulty in gatting a decent grade. the fact is, most people are just lazy.

Most of the stuff we learn doesn't apply to the very narrow field we'll end up working in in "real life" but we learn them anyway for the purposes of enrichment, understanding, and also, learning how to learn. I want my doctor to be a proffesional, but also one with some scientific knowledge base.

What are differential fees supposed to be for, anyway? What is the logic behind allowing them?
Supposedly, some faculties need more money in tuition because their programs are more expensive. Bullshit. In fact, they can charge more because the demand is there, and they'll fill up no-matter what they do.

Supposedly, some faculties need more money in tuition because their programs are more expensive. Bullshit. In fact, they can charge more because the demand is there, and they'll fill up no-matter what they do.

Sounds like an excuse to use the more exclusive faculties to cover the cost of some of the more general faculties. And to limit the pool of potential students for the exclusive faculties.

Sounds like an excuse to use the more exclusive faculties to cover the cost of some of the more general faculties. And to limit the pool of potential students for the exclusive faculties.Well, I don't know this for a fact, but somehow, I seriously doubt that faculties spread around the extra dough. If you can sqeeze it, well kudos to you, you are now rich. Go build yet another needless glass structure.

Right.

No Canadians are serving or have served in Afghanistan or the Balkans. Indeed, that unit citation from the US to JTF2 for their actions at Tora Bora was a figment of my imagination...... as were the coffins that came home.

In other news, the Canadian soldiers injured by that IED in Afghanistan last month also don't really exist.

:rolleyes:


All right: fact of life in reality: being a soldier is dangerous. They die. That is why I am not one. I am a Conscientious Objector. You know, a coward. I'm not saying that it's a good thing, in fact, I think that apart from humanitarian aid and TRUE national defence (ie: NOT the Iraq war), soldiers have no place in this world. So, unless they are going to distribute food, shelter, water, and medicine to disaster areas, they have no business being anywhere but home soil. As far as the Canadian soldiers casualty rate, it's pretty good. If you're going to be a soldier, being a Canadian one is a pretty safe way to go.

That's the university I go to, and yes, there are a LOT of scholarships for native students. It's almost frustrating looking through the undergrad scholarships for stuff you can apply for as a "majority" white male... because a lot of the awards are for natives and/or women, or other "minority" groups.
I put those things in quotes, because I hate terms like minority and majority, because they're not entirely truthful. Women aren't a minority by any means, as the world has roughly 50% women. :P

I'd just like to point out that one of the reasons there is so much funding out there in terms of grants and bursuries for native students is because the commonly held notion that we get FREE SCHOOL is a lie for 70% of the aboriginal population. If it were true, these sorts of alternate sources of funding would be unecessary. Please point that out to the next person to tell you "Indians go to school for free";)

Tuition and room and board at the university I'm attending are currently 41k a year. In the US though a lot of education is subsidized. Out of that 41k I'm only taking out 4k a year in loans. That translates into 16-20k in debt when I graduate from a college costing 41k a year. I don't find college inacessiable at all becasue I desire the education and the expereicne that goes along with it. Financial aid and scholarships make college accesible to the people willing to work for it.

So is this the goal then? To make education inaccessible via greedy and tuition hikes? To make sure there is an 'educated elite', thereby making these people more valuable through scarcity ?
(Un?)fortunately, yes. When everybody and his sister has an undergrad degree, that vaunted sheepskin becomes so much worthless paper and a heap of debt. There was a time when getting a Degree was important - now it's basically an extension of high-school. If you don't believe me, try getting your first Undergrad degree at 32 and see who will hire you. By the time you are 30, if you don't have a Graduate degree you're not fit to hire.
There has got to be some way someone could, for example, take an engineering degree (unrecognised) through a post-secondary co-op, with professors who are qualified engineers etc, renting facilities to do experiments and etc when necessary....and then do some sort of challenge at the end to get accreditation...ARGGHH I don't know...there has to be some alternative!That's called "Tech School" - where you are at least guaranteed a job for the $$$ you shell out.

My degree has left me in debt to the tune of about £20,000 (about $40,000 US) in student loans... and now I'm post-grading it to get the career sorted, and working 6 days a week to afford it. (Uni on the day off).
...... I was brought up to believe that education should be for all......
What happened ?????
...... and now they want to put tuition fees up further! (WTF!)

Wasn't it all free education tho, when our current politicians were at Uni? Talk about closing the door behind them!

...... I was brought up to believe that education should be for all......

Some level of education is certainly necessary and should be guarranteed to all people. Do you really think that all levels of education are necessary and thus should be guarranteed to all people?

Perhaps the society in which you live is the problem, suggesting that you need higher education and that all people should be entitled to it.

Wasn't it all free education tho, when our current politicians were at Uni? Talk about closing the door behind them!

Hmmm, I dunno. Not familiar with the politics there.

Some level of education is certainly necessary and should be guarranteed to all people. Do you really think that all levels of education are necessary and thus should be guarranteed to all people?

Perhaps the society in which you live is the problem, suggesting that you need higher education and that all people should be entitled to it.
My point exactly. The only Undergrad degree that is actually valuable in the marketplace comes from a school with High to "Impossible" entrance qualifications. Unfortunately the Dumbing Down... oh sorry... New Inclusiveness of education pretty much insures that anyone who can go into debt can get an undergrad diploma of some type.

I was making twice as much before I got my degree than after - without being $36K in debt at 8.5%. At over 30 with just an undergrad degree and a a 4+ year "break" in my professional work history I found that I became basically unemployable - but also unable to afford Grad school. Ah well. :(

Some level of education is certainly necessary and should be guarranteed to all people. Do you really think that all levels of education are necessary and thus should be guarranteed to all people?

Perhaps the society in which you live is the problem, suggesting that you need higher education and that all people should be entitled to it.



Hmmm, I dunno. Not familiar with the politics there.

That's cool, I'm not familiar with other systems :)

No, it was more a belief that education should be free for anyone that shows the ability and wishes to take themselves further, and not just for those who could afford it.
A lot of people simply don't feel the need to go, it's not for them, and that's cool.
However, the powers that be now encorage everyone to go to Uni, stating a desire to have 50% of school leavers go on to Uni over the next few years, which in turn makes it far more a part of the 'standard education' that's expected... but in order to do this, the student grant became a loan, and the tuition fees are rising.

My point exactly. The only Undergrad degree that is actually valuable in the marketplace comes from a school with High to "Impossible" entrance qualifications.
Which school is that? And which degree? I got three undergrad degrees, and two of them were very useful in the market place (the third was Philosophy :P), but maybe I have different criterion than you.

Which school is that? And which degree?
Schools like MIT. A technical degree can get you places... but America's "liberal arts" mindset has largely ceded that ground to Asia. I got three undergrad degrees, and two of them were very useful in the market place (the third was Philosophy :P), but maybe I have different criterion than you.
The criterion is not mine, it is that of the marketplace. I spent three years trying to sell my degree - and I ended up working as office boy for my father's architectrual firm. THREE YEARS of diligently working with uni career centers, job search agencies and internet searches - doing all the "right" things. I got ONE interview... with the CIA... and they determined that I was too old for CSD.

My degree means exactly squat in the marketplace because there are too many general "liberal arts" degrees out there. (The adult-student bachelor's program is considered a "General Studies" (Lib arts) degree... regardless of coursework focus.) At this juncture, with the last nearly 10 years of under employment, the best I can hope for is to get elected to somthing - that or rob a bank... both are morally equivilent. :(

I got into $26,000 in debt the first time around...and my first year's tuition was $1500. By my fourth year it was $3000. A kid going in now, with these kinds of fees, would be looking at about $40,000. That's pretty damn scary debt. I suspect there will be a lot fewer kids just taking Arts degrees that don't guarantee them high-paid employment. And that's sad.


it's about time someone thought about how they were going to support themselves after college instead of just expecting the gov to take care of them throughout their life on an exspensive art degree...

after 4 years of music or drama college most go on to computer programing just because the computer programing degree would support them, just cut out the music and art which one can teach oneself...

Why does the world have the mistaken notion that you need an education to be a hard working, sucessful person?

Germany in the 20's and 30's was the most educated contry in the world. Look where it took them with the gas chambers and political repression. Is that the kind of country you really want for your children?? If you do, look at yourself... (or can you??)

Besides who said anywhere that edication was an unalinable right??

"Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have,..." C. Spurgen