NationStates Jolt Archive


Who is Lying?

Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 01:46
Probably the most coherent summation I've read. I wonder if it's even possible to refute what he's written here - he has too many references.

NORMAN PODHORETZ is the editor-at-large of COMMENTARY and the author of ten books. The most recent, The Norman Podhoretz Reader, edited by Thomas L. Jeffers, appeared in 2004. His essays on the Bush Doctrine and Iraq, including “World War IV: How It Started, What It Means, and Why We Have to Win” (September 2004) and “The War Against World War IV” (February 2005), can be found by clicking here.


Among the many distortions, misrepresentations, and outright falsifications that have emerged from the debate over Iraq, one in particular stands out above all others. This is the charge that George W. Bush misled us into an immoral and/or unnecessary war in Iraq by telling a series of lies that have now been definitively exposed.

What makes this charge so special is the amazing success it has enjoyed in getting itself established as a self-evident truth even though it has been refuted and discredited over and over again by evidence and argument alike. In this it resembles nothing so much as those animated cartoon characters who, after being flattened, blown up, or pushed over a cliff, always spring back to life with their bodies perfectly intact. Perhaps, like those cartoon characters, this allegation simply cannot be killed off, no matter what.

Nevertheless, I want to take one more shot at exposing it for the lie that it itself really is. Although doing so will require going over ground that I and many others have covered before, I hope that revisiting this well-trodden terrain may also serve to refresh memories that have grown dim, to clarify thoughts that have grown confused, and to revive outrage that has grown commensurately dulled.

The main “lie” that George W. Bush is accused of telling us is that Saddam Hussein possessed an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, or WMD as they have invariably come to be called. From this followed the subsidiary “lie” that Iraq under Saddam’s regime posed a two-edged mortal threat. On the one hand, we were informed, there was a distinct (or even “imminent”) possibility that Saddam himself would use these weapons against us and/or our allies; and on the other hand, there was the still more dangerous possibility that he would supply them to terrorists like those who had already attacked us on 9/11 and to whom he was linked.

This entire scenario of purported deceit has been given a new lease on life by the indictment in late October of I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, then chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney. Libby stands accused of making false statements to the FBI and of committing perjury in testifying before a grand jury that had been convened to find out who in the Bush administration had “outed” Valerie Plame, a CIA agent married to the retired ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, IV. The supposed purpose of leaking this classified information to the press was to retaliate against Wilson for having “debunked” (in his words) “the lies that led to war.”

Now, as it happens, Libby was not charged with having outed Plame but only with having lied about when and from whom he first learned that she worked for the CIA. Moreover, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor who brought the indictment against him, made a point of emphasizing that

[t]his indictment is not about the war. This indictment is not about the propriety of the war. And people who believe fervently in the war effort, people who oppose it, people who have mixed feelings about it should not look to this indictment for any resolution of how they feel or any vindication of how they feel.

This is simply an indictment that says, in a national-security investigation about the compromise of a CIA officer’s identity that may have taken place in the context of a very heated debate over the war, whether some person—a person, Mr. Libby—lied or not.

No matter. Harry Reid, the Democratic leader in the Senate, spoke for a host of other opponents of the war in insisting that

[t]his case is bigger than the leak of classified information. It is about how the Bush White House manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order to bolster its case for the war in Iraq and to discredit anyone who dared to challenge the President.

Yet even stipulating—which I do only for the sake of argument—that no weapons of mass destruction existed in Iraq in the period leading up to the invasion, it defies all reason to think that Bush was lying when he asserted that they did. To lie means to say something one knows to be false. But it is as close to certainty as we can get that Bush believed in the truth of what he was saying about WMD in Iraq.

How indeed could it have been otherwise? George Tenet, his own CIA director, assured him that the case was “a slam dunk.” This phrase would later become notorious, but in using it, Tenet had the backing of all fifteen agencies involved in gathering intelligence for the United States. In the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) of 2002, where their collective views were summarized, one of the conclusions offered with “high confidence” was that

Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological, nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions.

The intelligence agencies of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and—yes—France all agreed with this judgment. And even Hans Blix—who headed the UN team of inspectors trying to determine whether Saddam had complied with the demands of the Security Council that he get rid of the weapons of mass destruction he was known to have had in the past—lent further credibility to the case in a report he issued only a few months before the invasion:

The discovery of a number of 122-mm chemical rocket warheads in a bunker at a storage depot 170 km southwest of Baghdad was much publicized. This was a relatively new bunker, and therefore the rockets must have been moved there in the past few years, at a time when Iraq should not have had such munitions. . . . They could also be the tip of a submerged iceberg. The discovery of a few rockets does not resolve but rather points to the issue of several thousands of chemical rockets that are unaccounted for.

Blix now claims that he was only being “cautious” here, but if, as he now also adds, the Bush administration “misled itself” in interpreting the evidence before it, he at the very least lent it a helping hand.

So, once again, did the British, the French, and the Germans, all of whom signed on in advance to Secretary of State Colin Powell’s reading of the satellite photos he presented to the UN in the period leading up to the invasion. Powell himself and his chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, now feel that this speech was the low point of his tenure as Secretary of State. But Wilkerson (in the process of a vicious attack on the President, the Vice President, and the Secretary of Defense for getting us into Iraq) is forced to acknowledge that the Bush administration did not lack for company in interpreting the available evidence as it did:

I can’t tell you why the French, the Germans, the Brits, and us thought that most of the material, if not all of it, that we presented at the UN on 5 February 2003 was the truth. I can’t. I’ve wrestled with it. when you see a satellite photograph of all the signs of the chemical-weapons ASP—Ammunition Supply Point—with chemical weapons, and you match all those signs with your matrix on what should show a chemical ASP, and they’re there, you have to conclude that it’s a chemical ASP, especially when you see the next satellite photograph which shows the UN inspectors wheeling in their white vehicles with black markings on them to that same ASP, and everything is changed, everything is clean. . . . But George [Tenet] was convinced, John McLaughlin [Tenet’s deputy] was convinced, that what we were presented [for Powell’s UN speech] was accurate.

Going on to shoot down a widespread impression, Wilkerson informs us that even the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) was convinced:

People say, well, INR dissented. That’s a bunch of bull. INR dissented that the nuclear program was up and running. That’s all INR dissented on. They were right there with the chems and the bios.

In explaining its dissent on Iraq’s nuclear program, the INR had, as stated in the NIE of 2002, expressed doubt about

Iraq’s efforts to acquire aluminum tubes [which are] central to the argument that Baghdad is reconstituting its nuclear-weapons program. . . . INR is not persuaded that the tubes in question are intended for use as centrifuge rotors . . . in Iraq’s nuclear-weapons program.

But, according to Wilkerson,

[b]The French came in in the middle of my deliberations at the CIA and said, we have just spun aluminum tubes, and by God, we did it to this RPM, et cetera, et cetera, and it was all, you know, proof positive that the aluminum tubes were not for mortar casings or artillery casings, they were for centrifuges. Otherwise, why would you have such exquisite instruments?

In short, and whether or not it included the secret heart of Hans Blix, “the consensus of the intelligence community,” as Wilkerson puts it, “was overwhelming” in the period leading up to the invasion of Iraq that Saddam definitely had an arsenal of chemical and biological weapons, and that he was also in all probability well on the way to rebuilding the nuclear capability that the Israelis had damaged by bombing the Osirak reactor in 1981.

Additional confirmation of this latter point comes from Kenneth Pollack, who served in the National Security Council under Clinton. “In the late spring of 2002,” Pollack has written,

I participated in a Washington meeting about Iraqi WMD. Those present included nearly twenty former inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM), the force established in 1991 to oversee the elimination of WMD in Iraq. One of the senior people put a question to the group: did anyone in the room doubt that Iraq was currently operating a secret centrifuge plant? No one did. Three people added that they believed Iraq was also operating a secret calutron plant (a facility for separating uranium isotopes).

No wonder, then, that another conclusion the NIE of 2002 reached with “high confidence” was that

Iraq could make a nuclear weapon in months to a year once it acquires sufficient weapons-grade fissile material. 1


But the consensus on which Bush relied was not born in his own administration. In fact, it was first fully formed in the Clinton administration. Here is Clinton himself, speaking in 1998:

If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons-of-mass-destruction program.

Here is his Secretary of State Madeline Albright, also speaking in 1998:

Iraq is a long way from [the USA], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.

Here is Sandy Berger, Clinton’s National Security Adviser, who chimed in at the same time with this flat-out assertion about Saddam:

He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.

Finally, Clinton’s Secretary of Defense, William Cohen, was so sure Saddam had stockpiles of WMD that he remained “absolutely convinced” of it even after our failure to find them in the wake of the invasion in March 2003.

Nor did leading Democrats in Congress entertain any doubts on this score. A few months after Clinton and his people made the statements I have just quoted, a group of Democratic Senators, including such liberals as Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, and John Kerry, urged the President

to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons-of-mass-destruction programs.

Nancy Pelosi, the future leader of the Democrats in the House, and then a member of the House Intelligence Committee, added her voice to the chorus:

Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons-of-mass-destruction technology, which is a threat to countries in the region, and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.

This Democratic drumbeat continued and even intensified when Bush succeeded Clinton in 2001, and it featured many who would later pretend to have been deceived by the Bush White House. In a letter to the new President, a number of Senators led by Bob Graham declared:

There is no doubt that . . . Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical, and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf war status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.

Senator Carl Levin also reaffirmed for Bush’s benefit what he had told Clinton some years earlier:

Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations, and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton agreed, speaking in October 2002:

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical- and biological-weapons stock, his missile-delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al-Qaeda members.

Senator Jay Rockefeller, vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, agreed as well:

There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. . . . We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.

Even more striking were the sentiments of Bush’s opponents in his two campaigns for the presidency. Thus Al Gore in September 2002:

We know that [Saddam] has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.

And here is Gore again, in that same year:

Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter, and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.

Now to John Kerry, also speaking in 2002:

I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force—if necessary—to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.


Perhaps most startling of all, given the rhetoric that they would later employ against Bush after the invasion of Iraq, are statements made by Senators Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd, also in 2002:

Kennedy: We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.

Byrd: The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical- and biological-warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons.2

Liberal politicians like these were seconded by the mainstream media, in whose columns a very different tune would later be sung. For example, throughout the last two years of the Clinton administration, editorials in the New York Times repeatedly insisted that

without further outside intervention, Iraq should be able to rebuild weapons and missile plants within a year [and] future military attacks may be required to diminish the arsenal again.

The Times was also skeptical of negotiations, pointing out that it was

hard to negotiate with a tyrant who has no intention of honoring his commitments and who sees nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons as his country’s salvation.

So, too, the Washington Post, which greeted the inauguration of George W. Bush in January 2001 with the admonition that

[o]f all the booby traps left behind by the Clinton administration, none is more dangerous—or more urgent—than the situation in Iraq. Over the last year, Mr. Clinton and his team quietly avoided dealing with, or calling attention to, the almost complete unraveling of a decade’s efforts to isolate the regime of Saddam Hussein and prevent it from rebuilding its weapons of mass destruction. That leaves President Bush to confront a dismaying panorama in the Persian Gulf [where] intelligence photos . . . show the reconstruction of factories long suspected of producing chemical and biological weapons. 3


All this should surely suffice to prove far beyond any even unreasonable doubt that Bush was telling what he believed to be the truth about Saddam’s stockpile of WMD. It also disposes of the fallback charge that Bush lied by exaggerating or hyping the intelligence presented to him. Why on earth would he have done so when the intelligence itself was so compelling that it convinced everyone who had direct access to it, and when hardly anyone in the world believed that Saddam had, as he claimed, complied with the sixteen resolutions of the Security Council demanding that he get rid of his weapons of mass destruction?

Another fallback charge is that Bush, operating mainly through Cheney, somehow forced the CIA into telling him what he wanted to hear. Yet in its report of 2004, the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee, while criticizing the CIA for relying on what in hindsight looked like weak or faulty intelligence, stated that it

did not find any evidence that administration officials attempted to coerce, influence, or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq’s weapons-of-mass-destruction capabilities.

The March 2005 report of the equally bipartisan Robb-Silberman commission, which investigated intelligence failures on Iraq, reached the same conclusion, finding

no evidence of political pressure to influence the intelligence community’s pre-war assessments of Iraq’s weapons programs. . . . [A]nalysts universally asserted that in no instance did political pressure cause them to skew or alter any of their analytical judgments.

Still, even many who believed that Saddam did possess WMD, and was ruthless enough to use them, accused Bush of telling a different sort of lie by characterizing the risk as “imminent.” But this, too, is false: Bush consistently rejected imminence as a justification for war.4 Thus, in the State of the Union address he delivered only three months after 9/11, Bush declared that he would “not wait on events while dangers gather” and that he would “not stand by, as peril draws closer and closer.” Then, in a speech at West Point six months later, he reiterated the same point: “If we wait for threats to materialize, we will have waited too long.” And as if that were not clear enough, he went out of his way in his State of the Union address in 2003 (that is, three months before the invasion), to bring up the word “imminent” itself precisely in order to repudiate it:

Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option.

What of the related charge that it was still another “lie” to suggest, as Bush and his people did, that a connection could be traced between Saddam Hussein and the al-Qaeda terrorists who had attacked us on 9/11? This charge was also rejected by the Senate Intelligence Committee. Contrary to how its findings were summarized in the mainstream media, the committee’s report explicitly concluded that al Qaeda did in fact have a cooperative, if informal, relationship with Iraqi agents working under Saddam. The report of the bipartisan 9/11 commission came to the same conclusion, as did a comparably independent British investigation conducted by Lord Butler, which pointed to “meetings . . . between senior Iraqi representatives and senior al-Qaeda operatives.”5

Which brings us to Joseph C. Wilson, IV and what to my mind wins the palm for the most disgraceful instance of all.

The story begins with the notorious sixteen words inserted—after, be it noted, much vetting by the CIA and the State Department—into Bush’s 2003 State of the Union address:

The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.

This is the “lie” Wilson bragged of having “debunked” after being sent by the CIA to Niger in 2002 to check out the intelligence it had received to that effect. Wilson would later angrily deny that his wife had recommended him for this mission, and would do his best to spread the impression that choosing him had been the Vice President’s idea. But Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times, through whom Wilson first planted this impression, was eventually forced to admit that “Cheney apparently didn’t know that Wilson had been dispatched.” (By the time Kristof grudgingly issued this retraction, Wilson himself, in characteristically shameless fashion, was denying that he had ever “said the Vice President sent me or ordered me sent.”) And as for his wife’s supposed non-role in his mission, here is what Valerie Plame Wilson wrote in a memo to her boss at the CIA:

My husband has good relations with the PM [the prime minister of Niger] and the former minister of mines . . . , both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity.

More than a year after his return, with the help of Kristof, and also Walter Pincus of the Washington Post, and then through an op-ed piece in the Times under his own name, Wilson succeeded, probably beyond his wildest dreams, in setting off a political firestorm.

In response, the White House, no doubt hoping to prevent his allegation about the sixteen words from becoming a proxy for the charge that (in Wilson’s latest iteration of it) “lies and disinformation [were] used to justify the invasion of Iraq,” eventually acknowledged that the President’s statement “did not rise to the level of inclusion in the State of the Union address.” As might have been expected, however, this panicky response served to make things worse rather than better. And yet it was totally unnecessary—for the maddeningly simple reason that every single one of the sixteen words at issue was true.

That is, British intelligence had assured the CIA that Saddam Hussein had tried to buy enriched uranium from the African country of Niger. Furthermore—and notwithstanding the endlessly repeated assertion that this assurance has now been discredited—Britain’s independent Butler commission concluded that it was “well-founded.” The relevant passage is worth quoting at length:

a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999.

b. The British government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports, the intelligence was credible.

c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased, as opposed to having sought, uranium, and the British government did not claim this.


As if that were not enough to settle the matter, Wilson himself, far from challenging the British report when he was “debriefed” on his return from Niger (although challenging it is what he now never stops doing6), actually strengthened the CIA’s belief in its accuracy. From the Senate Intelligence Committee report:

He [the CIA reports officer] said he judged that the most important fact in the report [by Wilson] was that Niger officials admitted that the Iraqi delegation had traveled there in 1999, and that the Niger prime minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium.

And again:

The report on [Wilson’s] trip to Niger . . . did not change any analysts’ assessments of the Iraq-Niger uranium deal. For most analysts, the information in the report lent more credibility to the original CIA reports on the uranium deal.

This passage goes on to note that the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research—which (as we have already seen) did not believe that Saddam Hussein was trying to develop nuclear weapons—found support in Wilson’s report for its “assessment that Niger was unlikely to be willing or able to sell uranium to Iraq.” But if so, this, as the Butler report quoted above points out, would not mean that Iraq had not tried to buy it—which was the only claim made by British intelligence and then by Bush in the famous sixteen words.

The liar here, then, was not Bush but Wilson. And Wilson also lied when he told the Washington Post that he had unmasked as forgeries certain documents given to American intelligence (by whom it is not yet clear) that supposedly contained additional evidence of Saddam’s efforts to buy uranium from Niger. The documents did indeed turn out to be forgeries; but, according to the Butler report,

[t]he forged documents were not available to the British government at the time its assessment was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine [that assessment]. 7

More damning yet to Wilson, the Senate Intelligence Committee discovered that he had never laid eyes on the documents in question:

[Wilson] also told committee staff that he was the source of a Washington Post article . . . which said, “among the envoy’s conclusions was that the documents may have been forged because ‘the dates were wrong and the names were wrong.’” Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the “dates were wrong and the names were wrong” when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports.

To top all this off, just as Cheney had nothing to do with the choice of Wilson for the mission to Niger, neither was it true that, as Wilson “confirmed” for a credulous New Republic reporter, “the CIA circulated [his] report to the Vice President’s office,” thereby supposedly proving that Cheney and his staff “knew the Niger story was a flatout lie.” Yet—the mind reels—if Cheney had actually been briefed on Wilson’s oral report to the CIA (which he was not), he would, like the CIA itself, have been more inclined to believe that Saddam had tried to buy yellowcake uranium from Niger.

So much for the author of the best-selling and much acclaimed book whose title alone—The Politics of Truth: Inside the Lies that Led to War and Betrayed My Wife’s CIA Identity—has set a new record for chutzpah.

But there is worse. In his press conference on the indictment against Libby, Patrick Fitzgerald insisted that lying to federal investigators is a serious crime both because it is itself against the law and because, by sending them on endless wild-goose chases, it constitutes the even more serious crime of obstruction of justice. By those standards, Wilson—who has repeatedly made false statements about every aspect of his mission to Niger, including whose idea it was to send him and what he told the CIA upon his return; who was then shown up by the Senate Intelligence Committee as having lied about the forged documents; and whose mendacity has sent the whole country into a wild-goose chase after allegations that, the more they are refuted, the more they keep being repeated—is himself an excellent candidate for criminal prosecution.

And so long as we are hunting for liars in this area, let me suggest that we begin with the Democrats now proclaiming that they were duped, and that we then broaden out to all those who in their desperation to delegitimize the larger policy being tested in Iraq—the policy of making the Middle East safe for America by making it safe for democracy—have consistently used distortion, misrepresentation, and selective perception to vilify as immoral a bold and noble enterprise and to brand as an ignominious defeat what is proving itself more and more every day to be a victory of American arms and a vindication of American ideals.

—November 7, 2005

1 Hard as it is to believe, let alone to reconcile with his general position, Joseph C. Wilson, IV, in a speech he delivered three months after the invasion at the Education for Peace in Iraq Center, offhandedly made the following remark: “I remain of the view that we will find biological and chemical weapons and we may well find something that indicates that Saddam’s regime maintained an interest in nuclear weapons.”

2 Fuller versions of these and similar statements can be found at http://www.theconversationcafe.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3134.htmland. Another source is http://www.rightwingnews.com/quotes/demsonwmds.php.

3 These and numerous other such quotations were assembled by Robert Kagan in a piece published in the Washington Post on October 25, 2005.

4 Whereas both John Edwards, later to become John Kerry’s running mate in 2004, and Jay Rockefeller, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, actually did use the word in describing the threat posed by Saddam.

5 In early November, the Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee, who last year gave their unanimous assent to its report, were suddenly mounting a last-ditch effort to take it back on this issue (and others). But to judge from the material they had already begun leaking by November 7, when this article was going to press, the newest “Bush lied” case is as empty and dishonest as the one they themselves previously rejected.

6 Here is how he put it in a piece in the Los Angeles Times written in late October of this year to celebrate the indictment of Libby: “I knew that the statement in Bush’s speech . . . was not true. I knew it was false from my own investigative trip to Africa. . . . And I knew that the White House knew it.”

7 More extensive citations of the relevant passages from the Butler report can be found in postings by Daniel McKivergan at www.worldwidestandard.com. I have also drawn throughout on materials cited by the invaluable Stephen F. Hayes in the Weekly Standard.
Stephistan
10-11-2005, 01:48
Bush and Cheney are lying.. do you ever give up WL? :p
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 01:50
Bush and Cheney are lying.. do you ever give up WL? :p

He's just proven that they didn't. Or can you not read English?
Myrmidonisia
10-11-2005, 01:56
He's just proven that they didn't. Or can you not read English?
If the lie is repeated often enough, it becomes true. You can't disprove a truth, even with other truths. This is especially true when trying to use facts or logic in your arguments when those arguments are directed at liberals.
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 01:58
If the lie is repeated often enough, it becomes true. You can't disprove a truth, even with other truths. This is especially true when trying to use facts or logic in your arguments when those arguments are directed at liberals.

I guess Stephistan enjoys repeating a lie over and over again, like a sacred mantra.
Stephistan
10-11-2005, 02:02
I guess Stephistan enjoys repeating a lie over and over again, like a sacred mantra.

Nope, it is you Sierra, Whispering Legs, whatever you're calling yourself this month that cherry picks the "facts" to back up your argument. You take it out of context and you steal other people's work as was proven by Sick Nightmares in the other thread. Have a nice day.
Delamonico
10-11-2005, 02:03
hate to ask this, but can some one sum that up? I dont got the willpower to read all that.
Myrmidonisia
10-11-2005, 02:05
hate to ask this, but can some one sum that up? I dont got the willpower to read all that.
Did too ... Did not.

Concise enough?
Fass
10-11-2005, 02:05
You take it out of context and you steal other people's work as was proven by Sick Nightmares in the other thread.

Linky?
Delamonico
10-11-2005, 02:07
Did too ... Did not.

Concise enough?

ah thank you.
Iztatepopotla
10-11-2005, 02:07
Wow! Politicians twisting the truth, exaggerating facts, and outright lying when they can in order to get an advantage. Who would have thought?
Stephistan
10-11-2005, 02:08
Linky?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9908490&postcount=102

It's been locked.. but his post is on the 2nd or third page, can't recall, I just gave you the link to where Sick Nightmares busted him.
Fass
10-11-2005, 02:13
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9908490&postcount=102

It's been locked.. but his post is on the 2nd or third page, can't recall, I just gave you the link to where Sick Nightmares busted him.

So blatant. :\
Stephistan
10-11-2005, 02:16
So blatant. :\

Yup, but I have come to expect nothing less or should that be more? of him.
Disraeliland
10-11-2005, 03:15
None of you have disproven, or even seriously disputed the opening post. Stephistan, and Myrmidonisia are merely arguing by assertion. That sort of horseshit might stand up in an anti-Bush circle-jerk, but on Earth, its simple rubbish.
Syniks
10-11-2005, 03:33
Nope, it is you Sierra, Whispering Legs, whatever you're calling yourself this month that cherry picks the "facts" to back up your argument. You take it out of context and you steal other people's work as was proven by Sick Nightmares in the other thread. Have a nice day.
Umm... Kimchi just posted an entire Podhertz article, with footnotes and attribution (though no link-back). I fail to see how Mr. Podhertz' work was stolen or out of context.
La Terra di Libertas
10-11-2005, 03:45
And here is me, in 2005:

Nelson

We now know that there were no weapons of mass destruction in terms of "bombs" but that infact Iraq itself is a weapon of mass destruction.:mp5: :sniper: :gundge: :headbang:
Gymoor II The Return
10-11-2005, 04:20
Do me a favor, OP. Condense this down, in your own words, to something like 3-7 paragraphs. If I had to do a point by point refutation of this it would take me quite a while and would require at least 100X the effort that you, OP, put into cutting and pasting someone else's argument in it's entirety.
The Nazz
10-11-2005, 04:25
None of you have disproven, or even seriously disputed the opening post. Stephistan, and Myrmidonisia are merely arguing by assertion. That sort of horseshit might stand up in an anti-Bush circle-jerk, but on Earth, its simple rubbish.
What's to disprove? Podhoretz is taking shit out of context left and right, and when it comes to Wilson, he's lying through his fucking teeth. Podhoretz gets paid to write that kind of shit--I don't get paid to debunk it for people too lazy to dig it out themselves or too stupid to know when they're getting fed a line of shit.
The Cat-Tribe
10-11-2005, 04:31
What's to disprove? Podhoretz is taking shit out of context left and right, and when it comes to Wilson, he's lying through his fucking teeth. Podhoretz gets paid to write that kind of shit--I don't get paid to debunk it for people too lazy to dig it out themselves or too stupid to know when they're getting fed a line of shit.

Damn straight.

I can cut-and-paste entire articles as well and challenge you to refute them. Does that make me right merely because of verbiage?
Disraeliland
10-11-2005, 04:36
What's to disprove? Podhoretz is taking shit out of context left and right, and when it comes to Wilson, he's lying through his fucking teeth. Podhoretz gets paid to write that kind of shit--I don't get paid to debunk it for people too lazy to dig it out themselves or too stupid to know when they're getting fed a line of shit.

Nonsense. I've seen assertions from people, nothing else.
The Nazz
10-11-2005, 04:39
Nonsense. I've seen assertions from people, nothing else.
And you know something? That's all you're gonna see, because those of us who have been following the story for the last five years know what the fuck's up, and those who haven't been, well, I guess they don't give a damn, and those who write the shit Podhoretz spews are intellectually dishonest. I'm tired of doing all your goddamn work for you--if you want to believe a hack like Podhoretz, fine. If you want an accurate view of what's been happening, stop listening to Limbaugh and Fox News and find out.
Ravenshrike
10-11-2005, 04:48
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9908490&postcount=102

It's been locked.. but his post is on the 2nd or third page, can't recall, I just gave you the link to where Sick Nightmares busted him.
Busted him for plagerization, which has no bearing whatsoever on the validity of what was posted.
Myotisinia
10-11-2005, 05:41
*applauds Deep Kimchi*
Unabashed Greed
10-11-2005, 05:58
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Iraq, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Bush is cool, blah, blah, blah, blah, the media sucks, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, fuck the dems, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blow up the brownies, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah... etc

Face it. The war was a bad idea, no matter how much makeup you put on a pig, it's still a pig. Get used to it.

I just wish that stupidity didn't have to cost the lives of more than 2,000 American soldiers, and countless innocent civilians.
Korrithor
10-11-2005, 06:37
Face it. The war was a bad idea, no matter how much makeup you put on a pig, it's still a pig. Get used to it.

I just wish that stupidity didn't have to cost the lives of more than 2,000 American soldiers, and countless innocent civilians.

Wow. What a lucid argument. I sure can't challenge that. :rolleyes:
Intangelon
10-11-2005, 06:41
If the lie is repeated often enough, it becomes true. You can't disprove a truth, even with other truths. This is especially true when trying to use facts or logic in your arguments when those arguments are directed at liberals.

That particular tactic is employed on both sides of the aisle, and is reprehensible. It makes me long for a legitimate third party.
Unabashed Greed
10-11-2005, 06:43
Wow. What a lucid argument. I sure can't challenge that. :rolleyes:

This post was really good, right up until the end. You really had me there. For a second, I thought you were something more than a rollyeyed warmonger. Oh well, let's see what happens when you grow up...
Intangelon
10-11-2005, 06:45
And you know something? That's all you're gonna see, because those of us who have been following the story for the last five years know what the fuck's up, and those who haven't been, well, I guess they don't give a damn, and those who write the shit Podhoretz spews are intellectually dishonest. I'm tired of doing all your goddamn work for you--if you want to believe a hack like Podhoretz, fine. If you want an accurate view of what's been happening, stop listening to Limbaugh and Fox News and find out.

Intellectually dishonest? In this case, having read the OP text, I have to ask how. Not because I am a Bush supporter -- far from it -- but because just saying Podhoretz is fulla shit, no matter how vehemently, doesn't make it so. How is THIS PARTICULAR article incorrect or dishonest?
Intangelon
10-11-2005, 06:50
This post was really good, right up until the end. You really had me there. For a second, I thought you were something more than a rollyeyed warmonger. Oh well, let's see what happens when you grow up...

I always find that those who utter the phrase "grow up" usually need to heed their own advice. Korrithor merely expressed his opinion, and he's got a point. Nobody has specifically debunked any of the original post. I'm looking for someone to do that because I like nothing better than shredding Bush -- but only when it's not ad hominem, Democratic party boilerplate, or just overzealous anti-Bush-ism. If you hate the guy, fine, true hatred needs no rationale. But if you're going to debate something, have some backup besides your own vitriol, 'cause it isn't very convincing.
The Nazz
10-11-2005, 06:55
Intellectually dishonest? In this case, having read the OP text, I have to ask how. Not because I am a Bush supporter -- far from it -- but because just saying Podhoretz is fulla shit, no matter how vehemently, doesn't make it so. How is THIS PARTICULAR article incorrect or dishonest?
Like I said--I'm not going to do your work for you. Podhoretz has a rep as a hack, a well-deserved one, and if you've been paying attention for the last five years, you can detail the bullshit in that article. If you can't, then get to work. Podhoretz gets paid to do that--I don't.
Unabashed Greed
10-11-2005, 06:59
I always find that those who utter the phrase "grow up" usually need to heed their own advice. Korrithor merely expressed his opinion, and he's got a point. Nobody has specifically debunked any of the original post. I'm looking for someone to do that because I like nothing better than shredding Bush -- but only when it's not ad hominem, Democratic party boilerplate, or just overzealous anti-Bush-ism. If you hate the guy, fine, true hatred needs no rationale. But if you're going to debate something, have some backup besides your own vitriol, 'cause it isn't very convincing.


I'm not sure what you're looking for here. How many people (or agencies) have to be wrong before a point gets across?
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 13:29
I'm not sure what you're looking for here. How many people (or agencies) have to be wrong before a point gets across?

What we're looking for is this:

The original post proved that Bush didn't lie. If you're going to say Bush lied, you'll have to say the British and French intelligence services lied, or were under Bush's control - which is impossible. Additionally, it is shown that Wilson can't keep his story straight, and Wilkerson, the ostensible other critic of Bush, actually believed the French intelligence as well.

So I'm looking for a detailed examination of the original post, and you show me where Bush managed to run the world's intelligence services. Or admit that every intel service in the world got it wrong, and Bush did not lie.
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 13:31
Do me a favor, OP. Condense this down, in your own words, to something like 3-7 paragraphs. If I had to do a point by point refutation of this it would take me quite a while and would require at least 100X the effort that you, OP, put into cutting and pasting someone else's argument in it's entirety.

It's about as short and sweet as it gets. Otherwise, something would be missed, and you would have refuted something by now.

Interesting that no one has refuted one iota of it...
Mandelaland
10-11-2005, 13:43
Does anyone know where these alleged WMD are now?

I have made up my mind that Bush's decision to invade Afghanistan and the Iraq was purely based on his personal financial interest in oil. :eek: Do not confuse me with the facts:)
NERVUN
10-11-2005, 13:51
Interesting that no one has refuted one iota of it...
What's there to refute? This has been chewed on again and again on these forums. And there have been hundreds of articles out on parts of the intelligence aperatus saying they they had tossed up red flags about the intelligence.

This is nothing more than a sum of all the dust clouds that have been kicked up to show that for all the whining Bush did about WMD THERE WERE NO BLOODY WMDs!

I also like your opening statement about how Podhoretz has written books, wow, if THAT'S not a statement that just cements the man's credentials, nothing is.

Perhaps, when it's not 10pm, I'll go crawling through Lexis-Nexis to post counter points, but Nazz is right, this crap has already been pulled apart elsewhere and I DO have better things to do than do it again.
OceanDrive2
10-11-2005, 13:57
hate to ask this, but can some one sum that up? I dont got the willpower to read all that.Kimchi try to say that WMD evidence was not sexed up (Gov Lies)...or some shiite like that...

To be honest I did not read it all. :D
I would be an idiot to waste my time on that ..AGAIN.

It was done here like a hundred times already...

The Gov lied.

No amount of Copy-pasting (by WL/Sierra/Kishki or other Bushites) is ever going to change that.
Intangelon
10-11-2005, 14:15
It seems awfully convenient that all those who are convinced the OP is a load of shit (and who still haven't provided any evidence) back up their assertion by saying they can't be bothered -- that it's all been refuted before. Then why post here at all? I've not seen any of these specific arguments refuted before, and wouldn't know where to look. Besides, is it possible that it's been refuted by authors or journalists who have as much of an agenda as you claim Podhoretz has?

Attacking me as being "lazy" when all I'm asking for is a source for your objections strikes me as reactionary and indicative of an absence of proof. Post a link, for fuck's sake -- is that so hard?
Gift-of-god
10-11-2005, 14:22
The main “lie” that George W. Bush is accused of telling us is that Saddam Hussein possessed an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, or WMD as they have invariably come to be called. From this followed the subsidiary “lie” that Iraq under Saddam’s regime posed a two-edged mortal threat. On the one hand, we were informed, there was a distinct (or even “imminent”) possibility that Saddam himself would use these weapons against us and/or our allies; and on the other hand, there was the still more dangerous possibility that he would supply them to terrorists like those who had already attacked us on 9/11 and to whom he was linked.

-DISCUSSION ABOUT FITZGERALD’S INDICTMENT OF LIBBY, CLAIMING IT’S NOT RELATED-

Originally Posted by Fitzgerald[t]his indictment is not about the war. This indictment is not about the propriety of the war. And people who believe fervently in the war effort, people who oppose it, people who have mixed feelings about it should not look to this indictment for any resolution of how they feel or any vindication of how they feel.This is simply an indictment that says, in a national-security investigation about the compromise of a CIA officer’s identity that may have taken place in the context of a very heated debate over the war, whether some person—a person, Mr. Libby—lied or not.

DEFINITION: To lie means to say something one knows to be false. CLAIM:But it is as close to certainty as we can get that Bush believed in the truth of what he was saying about WMD in Iraq.


Originally Posted by George Tenet Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological, nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions.LINK: http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/iraq-wmd.html
And even Hans Blix lent further credibility to the case in a report he issued only a few months before the invasion:
Originally Posted by Blix The discovery of a number of 122-mm chemical rocket warheads in a bunker at a storage depot 170 km southwest of Baghdad was much publicized. This was a relatively new bunker, and therefore the rockets must have been moved there in the past few years, at a time when Iraq should not have had such munitions. . . . They could also be the tip of a submerged iceberg. The discovery of a few rockets does not resolve but rather points to the issue of several thousands of chemical rockets that are unaccounted for.
LINK: http://telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/01/28/wblix28.xml
-REALLY LONG PART ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE WHO BELIEVED IRAQ HAD WMDS, BASIC ARGUMENT: INTELLIGENCE WAS SO OVERWHELMING, EVERYONE BELIEVED IT-

Another fallback charge is that Bush, operating mainly through Cheney, somehow forced the CIA into telling him what he wanted to hear. Yet in its report of 2004, the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee, while criticizing the CIA for relying on what in hindsight looked like weak or faulty intelligence, stated that it
Originally Posted by Senate Intelligence Committeedid not find any evidence that administration officials attempted to coerce, influence, or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq’s weapons-of-mass-destruction capabilities.
The March 2005 report of the equally bipartisan Robb-Silberman commission, which investigated intelligence failures on Iraq, reached the same conclusion, finding

Originally Posted by Robb-Silvermanno evidence of political pressure to influence the intelligence community’s pre-war assessments of Iraq’s weapons programs. . . . [A]nalysts universally asserted that in no instance did political pressure cause them to skew or alter any of their analytical judgments.
-USELESS BIT ABOUT THE WORD IMMINENT-
What of the related charge that it was still another “lie” to suggest, as Bush and his people did, that a connection could be traced between Saddam Hussein and the al-Qaeda terrorists who had attacked us on 9/11? This charge was also rejected by the Senate Intelligence Committee. Contrary to how its findings were summarized in the mainstream media, the committee’s report explicitly concluded that al Qaeda did in fact have a cooperative, if informal, relationship with Iraqi agents working under Saddam. The report of the bipartisan 9/11 commission came to the same conclusion, as did a comparably independent British investigation conducted by Lord Butler, which pointed to “meetings . . . between senior Iraqi representatives and senior al-Qaeda operatives.”5
THIS PART I WILL DEAL WITH RIGHT NOW: WASHINGTON, Nov. 5 — A top member of Al Qaeda in American custody was identified as a likely fabricator months before the Bush administration began to use his statements as the foundation for its claims that Iraq trained Al Qaeda members to use biological and chemical weapons, according to newly declassified portions of a Defense Intelligence Agency document.
The document, an intelligence report from February 2002, said it was probable that the prisoner, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, “was intentionally misleading the debriefers’’ in making claims about Iraqi support for Al Qaeda’s work with illicit weapons. LINK: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/politics/06intel.ready.html?incamp=article_popular
-A REALLY LONG BIT ON THE PLAME INCIDENT (UM, DUDE, YOU ARGUED THAT IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT UP THERE)-

—November 7, 2005

1 Hard as it is to believe, let alone to reconcile with his general position, Joseph C. Wilson, IV, in a speech he delivered three months after the invasion at the Education for Peace in Iraq Center, offhandedly made the following remark: “I remain of the view that we will find biological and chemical weapons and we may well find something that indicates that Saddam’s regime maintained an interest in nuclear weapons.”

2 Fuller versions of these and similar statements can be found at http://www.theconversationcafe.com/f...t-3134.htmland. Another source is http://www.rightwingnews.com/quotes/demsonwmds.php.

3 These and numerous other such quotations were assembled by Robert Kagan in a piece published in the Washington Post on October 25, 2005.

4 Whereas both John Edwards, later to become John Kerry’s running mate in 2004, and Jay Rockefeller, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, actually did use the word in describing the threat posed by Saddam.

5 In early November, the Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee, who last year gave their unanimous assent to its report, were suddenly mounting a last-ditch effort to take it back on this issue (and others). But to judge from the material they had already begun leaking by November 7, when this article was going to press, the newest “Bush lied” case is as empty and dishonest as the one they themselves previously rejected.

6 Here is how he put it in a piece in the Los Angeles Times written in late October of this year to celebrate the indictment of Libby: “I knew that the statement in Bush’s speech . . . was not true. I knew it was false from my own investigative trip to Africa. . . . And I knew that the White House knew it.”

7 More extensive citations of the relevant passages from the Butler report can be found in postings by Daniel McKivergan at www.worldwidestandard.com. I have also drawn throughout on materials cited by the invaluable Stephen F. Hayes in the Weekly Standard.

SORRY ABOUT MY CRAPPY CODING
Sick Nightmares
10-11-2005, 14:23
I personally don't care whether the article is true or false, full of wisdom, or full of bullshit. I know what I believe through my own research.

I do, however, find it EXTREMELY funny how everyone is screaming "Liar, Hack, Bullshit" but when asked to refute it, they say "I'm not doing your work for you."

The utter lack of facts to back up any claims that the article is wrong is REALLY giving me a grin this morning. Classic!
The Nazz
10-11-2005, 14:32
Rather than take this entire thing on, I'm just going to start at the top and sift the first layer of bullshit out. There's a reason for this. What Podhoretz has done in this article is throw so much unrelated bullshit at the reader that a simple-minded reader is impressed by what seems to be the sheer weight of an argument. However, a close look, even at one section, shows that the argument is fatuous and based on nothing.

From Podhoretz:The main “lie” that George W. Bush is accused of telling us is that Saddam Hussein possessed an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, or WMD as they have invariably come to be called. From this followed the subsidiary “lie” that Iraq under Saddam’s regime posed a two-edged mortal threat. On the one hand, we were informed, there was a distinct (or even “imminent”) possibility that Saddam himself would use these weapons against us and/or our allies; and on the other hand, there was the still more dangerous possibility that he would supply them to terrorists like those who had already attacked us on 9/11 and to whom he was linked.This paragraph is accurate--Bush and others in his administration did indeed make this case. Cheney made his statement on Meet the Press that Hussein "had reconstituted nuclear weapons." Condi Rice raised the specter of a mushroom cloud. And then there was the continued rhetorical linking of Iraq and al Qaeda, a link that continues to be made to this day, even though it has long been known--from before 9/11/2001 according to Richard Clarke--that there was no such link between the two.

For the Bush administration to ignore its own counterrorism czar to make an argument for war surely constitutes a proactive pushing of a falsehood for gain--in short, a lie. Podhoretz may not see it that way, but that doesn't make it so. The Bush administration lied about connections between Iraq and al Qaeda--that is without dispute.

Realizing this, Podhoretz tries to muddy the waters, and he does so successfully for anyone who 1) wants them to be muddied or 2) hasn't been paying attention. He does this by playing the "no one was indicted for outing a spy" game. The two points are related in the sense that they are parts of a larger narrative, but there's a gulf of a story to tell between the two actions, and Podhoretz is counting on that gulf to make his case seem like it makes sense.

It doesn't.

First of all, the story of the outing of Valerie Plame has never been central to the argument over whether or not the Bush administration lied about WMD. It was always a small part of the story, dealing only with a question of whether Iraq was trying to purchase yellowcake uranium from Niger. It doesn't deal with aluminum tubes or undestroyed stocks of chemical or biological munitions. It doesn't deal with unmanned drones or weaponized anthrax. It's just a very small part of the story, but it gets a lot of press because Condi Rice invoked the mushroom cloud and Cheney said Hussein had reconstituted nuclear weapons.

Podhoretz attempts to muddy the waters by noting that Libby was not charged with outing a CIA agent, only with obstructing justice and perjury, and that Fitzgerald made a statement that "this indictment was not about the war." Fitzgerald is accurate in that statement--from his particular point of view. He was not charged with discovering the reasons behind the deception that led to war--he was charged with investigating the crime of outing a CIA agent--and yes, she was outed and it was a crime. Libby has been charged with obstructing that investigation.

But Reid's statement is also accurate. As the crime of outing CIA agent Plame was related to the larger narrative, this indictment is related to the larger discussion about the war. Fitzgerald--narrow definition. Reid--wider definition. But for Podhoretz, it's an all or nothing definition. Why? Because, as I noted earlier, Podhoretz is a hack who gets paid a lot of money to be just this kind of bullshit artist. Now, someone else can take over if they wish. I think I've done enough to Podhoretz to show that he can't be trusted.
Disraeliland
10-11-2005, 14:59
And you know something? That's all you're gonna see, because those of us who have been following the story for the last five years know what the fuck's up, and those who haven't been, well, I guess they don't give a damn, and those who write the shit Podhoretz spews are intellectually dishonest. I'm tired of doing all your goddamn work for you--if you want to believe a hack like Podhoretz, fine. If you want an accurate view of what's been happening, stop listening to Limbaugh and Fox News and find out.

Evasion, and ad-hominem, that's certainly compelling. I'm bowled over. :rolleyes:

If you want to prove something's incorrect, do it. If you don't, bear in mind that posting is optional.
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 15:15
From Podhoretz:This paragraph is accurate--Bush and others in his administration did indeed make this case. Cheney made his statement on Meet the Press that Hussein "had reconstituted nuclear weapons." Condi Rice raised the specter of a mushroom cloud. And then there was the continued rhetorical linking of Iraq and al Qaeda, a link that continues to be made to this day, even though it has long been known--from before 9/11/2001 according to Richard Clarke--that there was no such link between the two.

For the Bush administration to ignore its own counterrorism czar to make an argument for war surely constitutes a proactive pushing of a falsehood for gain--in short, a lie. Podhoretz may not see it that way, but that doesn't make it so. The Bush administration lied about connections between Iraq and al Qaeda--that is without dispute.


I guess you're going to leave out all the facts about the British and French intelligence services saying that they also believed that Hussein has chem, bio, and was working on nukes. Including those fancy aluminum tubes, which the FRENCH said were for nuclear use.

Gosh, I guess Bush and Cheney are so smart that they were able to influence the CIA during the Clinton Administration, and so smart that they were able to make the British and French say anything in order to back up a "lie".

That's not muddying the waters, and you have nothing to stand on, I see.
The Nazz
10-11-2005, 16:06
I guess you're going to leave out all the facts about the British and French intelligence services saying that they also believed that Hussein has chem, bio, and was working on nukes. Including those fancy aluminum tubes, which the FRENCH said were for nuclear use.

Gosh, I guess Bush and Cheney are so smart that they were able to influence the CIA during the Clinton Administration, and so smart that they were able to make the British and French say anything in order to back up a "lie".

That's not muddying the waters, and you have nothing to stand on, I see.
Here's the key to all that intel--it was way fucking old. US intelligence agencies noted that even before we went to war, as did the "confirmation" from other countries, and if you look at the news reports from the period, you'll see that every other country was hedging their statements about WMD--"he may be" rather than "he is." Our own intelligence agencies--more than CIA, by the way--were saying that we basically didn't know much about the area post 1998, when we bombed the shit out of their existing facilities.

Now fast forward to 2002--we don't have any new intel, and the administration is data-mining the shit out of old intel in order to come up with something. I can't explain why the British passed along such clumsy forgeries from Italy that dealt with the supposed uranium sale other than the possibility that Blair was so eager to be Bush's junior partner and re-establish itself on the world stage militarily that he and his staff let it happen, but regardless, that intel was so bad that the Bush administration admitted it fucked up by leaning on it after the 2002 SOTU speech.

Remember that fact--the Bush team pulled back from the uranium claim. Why? Because they knew the intel was bullshit. Now, if you know something is bullshit, but you publish it as though it's true, what do we call that? A lie. Even a four year old knows that.

But you know who doesn't? Tools who still believe that this administration wasn't fucking lying to them all along.

Like I said in my earlier, profanity laced tirade. Those of us who have been paying attention from the beginning know the story. Those of you late to the game or who are so invested in this president because you can't deal with the notion that your fucking hero President is a lying douchebag can either continue to live in your land of illusion or suck it up and do the research yourself. And I'm not talking about posting links--I'm talking about finding stories on your own and connecting the fucking dots. take responsibility for your hackery, for fuck's sake.
The Nazz
10-11-2005, 16:07
Evasion, and ad-hominem, that's certainly compelling. I'm bowled over. :rolleyes:

If you want to prove something's incorrect, do it. If you don't, bear in mind that posting is optional.
I find it funny that this post comes directly under a lengthy one that deals with the substance of the original article. What a brilliant person you are. :rolleyes:
Silliopolous
10-11-2005, 16:30
There is a really odd thing about the oft-stated mantra that "every intelligence service in the world was convinced that he had WMD". I keep hearing it. It has become, as was mentioned earlier, the lie repeated often enough.

The fact is that this is complete BULLSHIT.

Most intelligence services SUSPECTED that he still had WMD. But they were not convinced. Just as the CIA put caveats into their reports that were never mentioned to the people when the case was made for war, so too did every other intelligence service have caveats.

And certainly many of the intelligence services did not buy into the Niger story, or the aluminum tubes, and were well satisfied with Baradi's report verifying that there was no nuclear program going on. A Report that the bush Administration screamed about and called false.

So, if everyone was CONVINCED that he had WMD, why - pray tell - did Colin Powell have to go to the UN to convince them all over again?

Surely that would have been unneccessary?

And why did many leaders state their reservations about the level of their certainty such as when Putin (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/10/12/wirq12.xml) declared before the vote came up in the Security Council that:


he was against waging war on Iraq and had heard no compelling evidence that Baghdad possessed weapons of mass destruction.



Now. Please point to your evidence of this pillar of your argument that "every intelligence service was convinced of this fact".

Then bear in mind that that the statements about IRaq was that it was a "grave and gathering threat" that had reconstituted hiw WMD programs and was ACTIVELY working towards rebuilding them.

And compare that the 2001 CIA report (http://www.odci.gov/cia/reports/721_reports/jan_jun2000.htm) which stated clearly that:

We do not have any direct evidence that Iraq has used the period since Desert Fox to reconstitute its weapons of mass destruction programs.



Everyone was convinced?

No.

Most people believed that he probably had a remaining stockpile, although it was also noted that most such weapons would have degraded to uselessness by now anyway.


As to the Fitzgerald statement: Yes, HIS purview was only to look at the narrow case of whether the law was broken in the outing of Valerie Plame. His clear statement that this in no way has any bearing on the larger case of possible administration dishonesty in the leadup to war is very much true. He was not investigating that.

However your extracting from this the notion that Fitzgerald has in any way exonerated the administration for any possible fibs in the leadup to war is complete bullshit. It wasn't part of his mandate.

But it certainly did kick GW in the ass about his clear statement that Rove and Libby were in no way involved, and also his statement that he would fire anyone involved. Both were, and he didn't.

And yes, people are noticing a pattern of dishonesty in such things.....



Oh yes, and Kimchi - the fact that people have yet to be able to prove that any lies were told does not mean that he didn't lie. That's a logical falacy.


I mean, OJ was found not to have murdered Nicole..... which I suppose must mean that he didn't do it.
The Nazz
10-11-2005, 16:37
The sad part, Silli, is that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz could get on national tv and say "yeah, we were all full of shit--Hussein never had anything and we knew it. We just never figured you'd actually go along with us," and a significant portion of Americans including people on this board would still argue that Bush never lied. That's just sad.
Silliopolous
10-11-2005, 16:42
The sad part, Silli, is that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz could get on national tv and say "yeah, we were all full of shit--Hussein never had anything and we knew it. We just never figured you'd actually go along with us," and a significant portion of Americans including people on this board would still argue that Bush never lied. That's just sad.


No doubt. Like whoever it was a couple of weeks back trying to bring back the old "They were shipped to Libya on the eve of war" conspiracy theory. Hell, GW admitted that there were no WMD to be found over a year ago now, but some people are still sure that they're out there buried under the sand.... as if someone wouldn't have used them by now.

:rolleyes:
The Nazz
10-11-2005, 16:48
Reminds me of something I heard Clinton say in a speech a couple of years ago. He was comparing ideologues and pragmatists in terms of governing style, but it applies to this sort of issue as well. He said "pragmatists, when they find themselves in a hole, stop digging. Ideologues ask for another shovel." Well, those people who insist on the notion that Bush didn't lie are either liars like Podhoretz or ideologues who are so invested in the idea that they can't let it go, and continue to dig their holes ever deeper.
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 17:37
Reminds me of something I heard Clinton say in a speech a couple of years ago. He was comparing ideologues and pragmatists in terms of governing style, but it applies to this sort of issue as well. He said "pragmatists, when they find themselves in a hole, stop digging. Ideologues ask for another shovel." Well, those people who insist on the notion that Bush didn't lie are either liars like Podhoretz or ideologues who are so invested in the idea that they can't let it go, and continue to dig their holes ever deeper.

Call me when you're repeating of the lie gets your hole dug all the way to China...
The Nazz
10-11-2005, 18:21
Call me when you're repeating of the lie gets your hole dug all the way to China...
Physician, heal thyself. It must pain you to get pwned on this forum day after day, and still come back for more. I admire that about you--it reminds me of the way Bush stubbornly sticks with his inept administration, never firing anyone even when they break the law, when they prove beyond any doubt that they're incompetent. I can see why you stick with the guy. The scary thing is that there's still about 35% of the country who are just like you. The good thing is that there's better than 60% who aren't, who are willing to learn from the evidence presented to them. Maybe one day you'll come around. I have my doubts, but it could happen.
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 18:37
I wouldn't know about pwned day after day.

I've pwned more than my fair share (CanuckHeaven has been heavily pwned by me).
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 18:39
I would also be more persuaded by evidence. Not your word that Podhoretz is lying. I'm reading the direct quotes of the people involved, and they don't add up to your conclusion at all.

Which one of those direct quotes is invalid, or a lie, or fabricated, or forced out of someone by Bush?

Hm?
Silliopolous
10-11-2005, 18:48
I would also be more persuaded by evidence. Not your word that Podhoretz is lying. I'm reading the direct quotes of the people involved, and they don't add up to your conclusion at all.

Which one of those direct quotes is invalid, or a lie, or fabricated, or forced out of someone by Bush?

Hm?


Well, Podhoretz states: "The intelligence agencies of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and—yes—France all agreed with this judgment." in relation to Tenent's statement that "Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological, nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions."


But yet I have provided a link that indicates that Putin stated that he was not provided with a statement that there was firm position by his security services that they were in agreement with the US position that Saddam was actively seeking to reconstitute WMD programs. He stated clearly that he had not seen firm proof.

I have also linked to the CIA report of 2001 indicating that even the CIA did not believe this either in 2001.... until they were asked to "look again" after 9-11

So, you tell me where the Russian Intelligence aparatus stated firm agreement with the indicated Tenent statement in that article that "Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological, nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions."


Because I have been unable to verify this assertion nor is it anotated with a source.
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 18:54
Because I have been unable to verify this assertion nor is it anotated with a source.

You'll notice that the assertion is backed up (at least in relation to France) by Wilkerson's testimony.
Silliopolous
10-11-2005, 19:02
You'll notice that the assertion is backed up (at least in relation to France) by Wilkerson's testimony.


I didn't ask about France. I asked about Russia.

Nor, to be honest, is Wilkerson a spokesperson for the DGSE. In court, that counts as hearsay by a person with a vested interest. Indeed, if you read the quote what he says is:

"I can’t tell you why the French, the Germans, the Brits, and us thought that most of the material, if not all of it, that we presented at the UN on 5 February 2003 was the truth. I can’t."

Except that I have never seen a source that indicated what portions of that presentation were accepted as true.... beyond the spelling of the word "Iraq". Certainly their response was not supportive, nor does Wilkerson indicate WHO from the French delegation might have found it convincing.


So, once again, where do the security aparatuses come out in support for Tenant's position.

And now you can include France because Wilkerson's quote doesn't cover it.
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 19:09
I didn't ask about France. I asked about Russia.


We might as well cover who believed that Iraq had a WMD program, and intended to use WMD.

As you may note, before Bush took office, Clinton, Albright, and Berger believed so. Are you saying that Bush somehow fooled them before he took office?

Regime change because of WMD was already a policy expressed by the White House - before Bush took office.

Wilkerson was present at the meetings. If you're going to say that a person present at the meetings isn't a valid source, then you can toss everything that Wilson says happened at any meeting he ever attended.

And another witness, this time a multinational group of people who worked for UNSCOM, not Bush


I participated in a Washington meeting about Iraqi WMD. Those present included nearly twenty former inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM), the force established in 1991 to oversee the elimination of WMD in Iraq. One of the senior people put a question to the group: did anyone in the room doubt that Iraq was currently operating a secret centrifuge plant? No one did. Three people added that they believed Iraq was also operating a secret calutron plant (a facility for separating uranium isotopes).
Silliopolous
10-11-2005, 19:23
Don't change the subject.

Answer the question.

Now, all I said was that Wilkerson's quote was insufficiently specific to back up the firm statement in the article that the French intel services believed Tenant's very specific statement. Which group of "the French" is he referring to?

Certainly the public position of the French government was at odds with this notion, so to believe Wilkerson then you have to believe that the public face of French politics were not representing what they really believed depite no available public evidence to support Wilkerson.

Now, if you want to go down that route with a "well duh! it happens all the time" then I suggest you tread VERY lightly because your entire argument hinges on the notion that this cannot be the case for the Bush Administration when using a cherry-picked subset of their public statements as your proof.


Trying to equate that to Wilson, however, is totally invalid as the poor quality of those forgeries has been widely supported from a variety of intelligence sources. Which is to say that Wilson's point of view has more public backing from other sources than does Wilkersons. However I am not dismissing Wilkerson. I'm just saying that his is not as specific a statemtent as is needed to meet the burden of proof.
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 19:28
Trying to equate that to Wilson, however, is totally invalid as the poor quality of those forgeries has been widely supported from a variety of intelligence sources. Which is to say that Wilson's point of view has more public backing from other sources than does Wilkersons. However I am not dismissing Wilkerson. I'm just saying that his is not as specific a statemtent as is needed to meet the burden of proof.

If you're not going to accept Wilkerson (or even the UNSCOM inspectors) as any proof that the rest of the world (not just Bush) was groupthinking down the WMD road (along with the previous Clinton administration), then we can't place any weight on Wilson, either.

The information about the attempt to secure uranium is based on more than the forgeries, and you can read how the British backed it even afterwards. In their own commission.

Wilson has even said later that "he never debunked" the claim - other than making note of the forgeries.
Gift-of-god
10-11-2005, 19:35
We might as well cover who believed that Iraq had a WMD program, and intended to use WMD.

As you may note, before Bush took office, Clinton, Albright, and Berger believed so. Are you saying that Bush somehow fooled them before he took office?



Not to piss on your parade, but whether or not other people believed in or lied about Iraq having WMDs has nothing to do with whether or not Bush did, unless all these other people received the exact same intelligence at the exact same time. According to the article quoted in the OP, this is not the case.
The Nazz
10-11-2005, 19:38
Not to piss on your parade, but whether or not other people believed in or lied about Iraq having WMDs has nothing to do with whether or not Bush did, unless all these other people received the exact same intelligence at the exact same time. According to the article quoted in the OP, this is not the case.
Exactly, and yet this is the kind of hacktackular sophistry that Podhoretz and others like him engage in all the time. Take multiple situations that each have their own sets of data, and then equate them as though they were identical. It's intellectually dishonest, and yet people fall for it all the time.
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 19:42
Exactly, and yet this is the kind of hacktackular sophistry that Podhoretz and others like him engage in all the time. Take multiple situations that each have their own sets of data, and then equate them as though they were identical. It's intellectually dishonest, and yet people fall for it all the time.

If you're going to believe that Bush lied about WMD, and Bush made it all up, then how did so many people NOT under his control say it as well.

Are they lying, too? How could Bush have "made it up"?

Was Clinton lying about the WMD in Iraq? Was Albright? Was Berger?

How can you arrive at "Bush lied to get us into the war" if he wasn't the one who came up with it? If he, like most other people, believed the intelligence agencies of more than one nation - believed the assent of multiple UNSCOM inspectors?

Saying he brainwashed them? Lied?

You still have no argument other than, "that's intellectually dishonest".

Pwned.
Silliopolous
10-11-2005, 19:45
If you're not going to accept Wilkerson (or even the UNSCOM inspectors) as any proof that the rest of the world (not just Bush) was groupthinking down the WMD road (along with the previous Clinton administration), then we can't place any weight on Wilson, either.

The information about the attempt to secure uranium is based on more than the forgeries, and you can read how the British backed it even afterwards. In their own commission.

Wilson has even said later that "he never debunked" the claim - other than making note of the forgeries.

STOP CHANGING THE SUBJECT!!!!

You asked for someone to poke holes in that article.

I poked one.

You haven't patched it.

You talk "group think", but if that were really true there would have been the corresponding "group action".

There wasn't. So stop tossing around bullshit statements like "the whole world agreed" when you know damn well that it didn't. In fact, I'm pretty sure that about a third of the world (the poorest third) probably didn't even give a rats ass one way or the other.

Now, for the last time: The statement by the author was specific.

Russian intelligence services concurred with Tenant. As did French.

He has not properly supported this and you are ducking and dancing worse than Patrick Swayze on a week-long bender.

Now put up or shut up.

I poked a hole as you requested. It was what you asked in the originating post

Plug it.

I insist.
The Nazz
10-11-2005, 19:52
If you're going to believe that Bush lied about WMD, and Bush made it all up, then how did so many people NOT under his control say it as well.

Are they lying, too? How could Bush have "made it up"?

Was Clinton lying about the WMD in Iraq? Was Albright? Was Berger?

How can you arrive at "Bush lied to get us into the war" if he wasn't the one who came up with it? If he, like most other people, believed the intelligence agencies of more than one nation - believed the assent of multiple UNSCOM inspectors?

Saying he brainwashed them? Lied?

You still have no argument other than, "that's intellectually dishonest".
I'll give you this--you're learning well at the feet of Podhoretz.

Clinton was working with the information he had at the time, which was not the same info that Albright had, which was not the same as Berger, which was not the same info that Congress had when they passed the Iraq War resolution which was not the same info that the White House Iraq Group and Team B were manufacturing and that the Bush administration was pushing. Different scenarios, and yet you treat them as though they are identical. That is intellectual dishonesty.

In case you miss the subtlety above, let me spell it out for you--all the other groups you cite as having agreed with Bush were working with limited data sets. They were not working with the data set that the Bush team manufactured in order to get approval for war from the Congress.

Honestly, I don't know why I'm going through this--you're not going to change your mind. As I said to Silliopolous above, the entire Bush team could get on tv and laugh in your face and call you an idiot for ever believing them in the first place, and you'd still defend them. It's your choice to be blind, to put your trust in an incompetent liar, but in the end, it is your choice. Enjoy your life.
The Nazz
10-11-2005, 19:53
God, the longer I stay in this thread, the more it reminds me of those Evolution (my side) versus Intelligent Design (Deep Kimchi et al) threads.
Gift-of-god
10-11-2005, 20:00
If you're going to believe that Bush lied about WMD, and Bush made it all up, then how did so many people NOT under his control say it as well.

Are they lying, too? How could Bush have "made it up"?

Was Clinton lying about the WMD in Iraq? Was Albright? Was Berger?

How can you arrive at "Bush lied to get us into the war" if he wasn't the one who came up with it? If he, like most other people, believed the intelligence agencies of more than one nation - believed the assent of multiple UNSCOM inspectors?

Saying he brainwashed them? Lied?

You still have no argument other than, "that's intellectually dishonest".

Pwned.

You did not read my post, or are ignoring it.
Maineiacs
10-11-2005, 20:08
The lie told by Bush et al. wasn't that they went to war knowing that there weren't WMD's in Iraq. The lie was that they said they had incontrovertable proof the WMD's existed when in fact no such evidence existed.
Silliopolous
10-11-2005, 20:09
Oh, and speaking as part of "all of the world", and specifically one with which the US has always had a fairly good intelligence-trading relationship: Here is Canada's Foreign Affairs pre-war report, including its affiliations with the Inspections process to dispell any notion that they are exlusionary to that process:

http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/department/focus/weapons_mass_destruction-en.asp

I'll highlight the relevant parts:


Canada continues to have concerns about Iraq's intentions to reconstitute its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs.

Concerns persist regarding Iraq's probable stocks of chemical and biological weapons, and hard information on Iraqi WMD development programs remains unattainable. While there is no evidence we are aware of that Iraq has resumed production of chemical weapons (CW) agents since the departure of UN weapons inspectors in 1998, there is concern that it is rebuilding the infrastructure it would need to do so.

There is also a high probability that Iraq retains small quantities of biological weapons (BW) agents or weapons. While there is no evidence we are aware of that Iraq has resumed production of BW agents since 1998, it could have done so without being detected. As the Iraqi government has used chemical and possibly biological weapons in the past against its own citizens and Iran, continued possession of any CW or BW capability would be a matter of grave concern.

Iraq has retained at least a modest technical capability that could be a basis for the resumption of a nuclear weapons development program. It is believed, however, that Iraq neither possesses a nuclear weapon nor is close to having one, in large measure due to the difficulty of producing or otherwise acquiring the necessary weapons-grade fissile material. At present, Iraq cannot produce sufficient quantities of fissile material to produce a nuclear explosive device, and would find it difficult to obtain such material from external sources without detection.

....

Canada participated in the work of UNSCOM from its inception. A number of UNSCOM weapons inspectors were Canadians. Canada is, therefore, aware from first-hand experience of the great lengths to which Iraq went to develop chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, as well as the extent of its efforts to hide them from inspectors. Canada has also supported UNMOVIC by offering training and other support. One former UNSCOM inspector--a Canadian with a long and distinguished career in the field--is also currently a member of the College of Commissioners, which provides advice and guidance to the UNMOVIC chairman. Two Canadians work at the UNMOVIC headquarters in New York and another three are members of the UNMOVIC inspection roster. Canadians also work for the IAEA, both as members of the Action Team and as safeguards inspectors.


Speaking from "the rest of the world", I officially call *bullshit* on your - and the article author's spurious notion that every intelligence service supported Tenants belief that the WMD programs WERE being reconstituted and made active.

Canada - probably your closest and longest standing ally - asked for access to the raw intel to prove the assertion and indicated that we would join the effort if it were indeed proven.

The US declined.
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 20:10
God, the longer I stay in this thread, the more it reminds me of those Evolution (my side) versus Intelligent Design (Deep Kimchi et al) threads.

No, I'm a believer in Evolution... sorry to disappoint you.

We could argue about the merits of gun control in the US in another thread, but you'll end up hosed by Department of Justice statistics, just like CanuckHeaven.
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 20:14
Sounds like you're all on board with the Rockefeller memo...
We have carefully reviewed our options under the rules and believe we have identified the best approach. Our plan is as follows:

1) Pull the majority along as far as we can on issues that may lead to major new disclosures regarding improper or questionable conduct by administration officials. We are having some success in that regard.

For example, in addition to the President's State of the Union speech, the chairman [Sen. Pat Roberts] has agreed to look at the activities of the office of the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, as well as Secretary Bolton's office at the State Department.

The fact that the chairman supports our investigations into these offices and cosigns our requests for information is helpful and potentially crucial. We don't know what we will find but our prospects for getting the access we seek is far greater when we have the backing of the majority. [We can verbally mention some of the intriguing leads we are pursuing.]

2) Assiduously prepare Democratic 'additional views' to attach to any interim or final reports the committee may release. Committee rules provide this opportunity and we intend to take full advantage of it.

In that regard we may have already compiled all the public statements on Iraq made by senior administration officials. We will identify the most exaggerated claims. We will contrast them with the intelligence estimates that have since been declassified. Our additional views will also, among other things, castigate the majority for seeking to limit the scope of the inquiry.

The Democrats will then be in a strong position to reopen the question of establishing an Independent Commission [i.e., the Corzine Amendment.]

3) Prepare to launch an independent investigation when it becomes clear we have exhausted the opportunity to usefully collaborate with the majority. We can pull the trigger on an independent investigation of the administration's use of intelligence at any time. But we can only do so once.

The best time to do so will probably be next year, either:

A) After we have already released our additional views on an interim report, thereby providing as many as three opportunities to make our case to the public. Additional views on the interim report (1). The announcement of our independent investigation (2). And (3) additional views on the final investigation. Or:

B) Once we identify solid leads the majority does not want to pursue, we would attract more coverage and have greater credibility in that context than one in which we simply launch an independent investigation based on principled but vague notions regarding the use of intelligence.

In the meantime, even without a specifically authorized independent investigation, we continue to act independently when we encounter footdragging on the part of the majority. For example, the FBI Niger investigation was done solely at the request of the vice chairman. We have independently submitted written requests to the DOD and we are preparing further independent requests for information.

SUMMARY: Intelligence issues are clearly secondary to the public's concern regarding the insurgency in Iraq. Yet we have an important role to play in revealing the misleading, if not flagrantly dishonest, methods and motives of senior administration officials who made the case for unilateral preemptive war.

The approach outlined above seems to offer the best prospect for exposing the administration's dubious motives.
Silliopolous
10-11-2005, 20:16
On board?

lmfao!


YOU brought it up. YOU started the thread.


And, methinks, you just got slapped around in it - firmly.



Better go find that plug I asked for before all the air goes out of your balloon.....
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 20:20
And, methinks, you just got slapped around in it - firmly.


I hardly think so. I don't see much evidence on your side by comparison.
Gift-of-god
10-11-2005, 20:33
I hardly think so. I don't see much evidence on your side by comparison.

That is because you are willfullly ignoring it.

I posted a New York Times article about declassified information that shows that the White House knew Iraq was not working with Al-Qaeda before the war.

A logical argument was putforth by several people with respect to other people believing or misleading about intelligence concerning WMDs.

You have yet to respond to either argument.
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 20:39
That is because you are willfullly ignoring it.

I posted a New York Times article about declassified information that shows that the White House knew Iraq was not working with Al-Qaeda before the war.

A logical argument was putforth by several people with respect to other people believing or misleading about intelligence concerning WMDs.

You have yet to respond to either argument.

That's because you haven't discredited the central idea:

You all assert (as do the Democrats) that Bush lied about WMD and knew he was lying. There are many people cited who appear to have believed the same thing, in some cases well before the Bush Administration. While there have been small pecks at some of those, by no means has anyone come close to blowing them all away. Not even close.

So, in essence, there has been no response other than, "Bush lied" and "you're pwned" and "intellectual dishonesty".

Really, am I to believe that Bush lied and corrupted the Clinton Administration before Bush took office? Am I to believe that a roomful of UNSCOM inspectors were magically hoodwinked by Bush? That two committees could investigate the allegation that Bush lied and come up with nothing? That a Democratic Senator could plot this whole accusation two years in advance, holding no evidence in his hands at all?

Really, now. Not one of you has proven that he lied.
Stephistan
10-11-2005, 20:45
I hardly think so. I don't see much evidence on your side by comparison.

No, you've pretty much been pwned in this thread by Nazz and Silliopolous, that there is little doubt of. :cool:
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 20:47
No, you've pretty much been pwned in this thread by Nazz and Silliopolous, that there is little doubt of. :cool:
That's because you haven't discredited the central idea:

You all assert (as do the Democrats) that Bush lied about WMD and knew he was lying. There are many people cited who appear to have believed the same thing, in some cases well before the Bush Administration. While there have been small pecks at some of those, by no means has anyone come close to blowing them all away. Not even close.

So, in essence, there has been no response other than, "Bush lied" and "you're pwned" and "intellectual dishonesty".

Really, am I to believe that Bush lied and corrupted the Clinton Administration before Bush took office? Am I to believe that a roomful of UNSCOM inspectors were magically hoodwinked by Bush? That two committees could investigate the allegation that Bush lied and come up with nothing? That a Democratic Senator could plot this whole accusation two years in advance, holding no evidence in his hands at all?

Really, now. Not one of you has proven that he lied.
Silliopolous
10-11-2005, 20:49
I hardly think so. I don't see much evidence on your side by comparison.

Right.

Full documentation from a close ally refuting your worldwide group-think concept, a 2001 CIA document in agreement with the Canadian document, and your complete inability to back up the claim regarding Russia represent a lack of evidence that your basic premise is flawed......

Except what is you premise again?

GW couldn't have lied because some other people believed the same thing.



Hey, some people believe in UFO's. That doesn't mean me claiming to have been abducted by one is neccessarily a truthfull statement.....

I'm not here to make the case that he lied. I'm just slapping around your easilly falsifiable assertion that this Quotes 'R Us collection are substantive proof that he didn't lie. Because SOMETHING or SOMEONE changed the CIA's mind between 2001 and 2002, and the evidence was presented to the people as FACT without giving them access to the many critical caveats contained in the raw CIA reports.

And a sin of ommission CAN be taken to be a lie. It is why on the stand you are asked to "tell the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth."
Stephistan
10-11-2005, 20:50
That's because you haven't discredited the central idea:

In your post that started this thread you asked if someone could poke a hole in this logic, in fact you said you doubted it could be done. Both Nazz and Silliopolous have done so and you have been unable to answer their questions, instead you change the subject. That's what posters do when they've been pwned. Been around here long enough to know the MO.
Gift-of-god
10-11-2005, 20:50
That's because you haven't discredited the central idea:

You all assert (as do the Democrats) that Bush lied about WMD and knew he was lying. There are many people cited who appear to have believed the same thing, in some cases well before the Bush Administration. While there have been small pecks at some of those, by no means has anyone come close to blowing them all away. Not even close.

So, in essence, there has been no response other than, "Bush lied" and "you're pwned" and "intellectual dishonesty".

Really, am I to believe that Bush lied and corrupted the Clinton Administration before Bush took office? Am I to believe that a roomful of UNSCOM inspectors were magically hoodwinked by Bush? That two committees could investigate the allegation that Bush lied and come up with nothing? That a Democratic Senator could plot this whole accusation two years in advance, holding no evidence in his hands at all?

Really, now. Not one of you has proven that he lied.

I will use small words.

1) Bush did not need to corrupt the Clinton administration.
If Clinton said there were WMDs, it has nothing to do with whether or not Bush lied, unless they all had the exact same information at the same time.

The same goes for the UNSCOM inspectors, the French government, US senators, my mother, etc.

The article you quoted clearly shows they had different information at different times.

2) The New York Times article posted:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/politics/06intel.ready.html?incamp=article_popular

shows that the White House knew that the information they had tying Iraq to Al-Qaeda was faulty, yet they made the claim anyway.

Please respond intelligently to these two points.
Silliopolous
10-11-2005, 20:55
^V^ ^V^ ^V^ ^V^Point.^V^ ^V^ ^V^ ^V^
_________________Kimchi_________________



Look up Kimchi, The point just flew over your head and you haven't noticed.



This thread is not about us proving that GW DID lie. YOU started the thread indicating that it gave irrefutable proof that he DIDN'T lie and that it would be impossible to poke holes in.





Consider your "proof" refuted.
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 20:56
I will use small words.

1) Bush did not need to corrupt the Clinton administration.
If Clinton said there were WMDs, it has nothing to do with whether or not Bush lied, unless they all had the exact same information at the same time.

The same goes for the UNSCOM inspectors, the French government, US senators, my mother, etc.

The article you quoted clearly shows they had different information at different times.


You are not showing at all that Bush lied. The central point of what I am posting is that BUSH DID NOT LIE to get us into the war.

If Clinton has the information first, and through Tenet passes it on to Bush, how is that a lie?

How? Are you wishing it to be so?

When Wilkerson and others continue to get more information over time from the French and from UNSCOM inspectors that corroborates the idea that Iraq (wrongly) had WMD, what are the CIA and Bush supposed to conclude?

That there are no WMD?

It is logical that they would conclude that there are WMD - from multiple sources over time.

So how does that make Bush a liar? How?

Is a President supposed to believe his intelligence service, which is telling him the exact same thing that it told Clinton, or is he supposed to read tea leaves?

And if he goes with what his intelligence service says, and if that is the same information they told the previous administration (and it most certainly is), then how does that make Bush a liar?

When you've finished trying to explain that, we'll go on to the second point.
Stephistan
10-11-2005, 21:01
^V^ ^V^ ^V^ ^V^Point.^V^ ^V^ ^V^ ^V^
_________________Kimchi_________________



Look up Kimchi, The point just flew over your head and you haven't noticed.



This thread is not about us proving that GW DID lie. YOU started the thread indicating that it gave irrefutable proof that he DIDN'T lie and that it would be impossible to poke holes in.





Consider your "proof" refuted.

Agreed!
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 21:02
Agreed!
You are not showing at all that Bush lied. The central point of what I am posting is that BUSH DID NOT LIE to get us into the war.

If Clinton has the information first, and through Tenet passes it on to Bush, how is that a lie?

How? Are you wishing it to be so?

When Wilkerson and others continue to get more information over time from the French and from UNSCOM inspectors that corroborates the idea that Iraq (wrongly) had WMD, what are the CIA and Bush supposed to conclude?

That there are no WMD?

It is logical that they would conclude that there are WMD - from multiple sources over time.

So how does that make Bush a liar? How?

Is a President supposed to believe his intelligence service, which is telling him the exact same thing that it told Clinton, or is he supposed to read tea leaves?

And if he goes with what his intelligence service says, and if that is the same information they told the previous administration (and it most certainly is), then how does that make Bush a liar?
Stephistan
10-11-2005, 21:04
You are not showing at all that Bush lied.

And you haven't showed that he didn't. So, what was the point of starting this thread?
Silliopolous
10-11-2005, 21:05
You are not showing at all that Bush lied.


We don't have to. That is not what your thread asked for.

The central point of what I am posting is that BUSH DID NOT LIE to get us into the war.

<snip *blah blah blah*>


Then prove it!

I HAVE proved that the pre-2002 CIA position was indeed that Saddam was not ACTIVELY pursuing new WMD. What Clinton, Gore, or Dolly Parton'sleft breast might have thought is irrelevant to what GW thought, what he knew, and whether he lied or not.


So, once again, tell me how Cherry-picked-out-of-context-quotes-R-Us-by-people-not-named-Bush PROVES anything!
Gift-of-god
10-11-2005, 21:07
You are not showing at all that Bush lied. The central point of what I am posting is that BUSH DID NOT LIE to get us into the war.

If Clinton has the information first, and through Tenet passes it on to Bush, how is that a lie?.

You are assuming that no new information has been gathered between Clinton's statement and Bush's statement. I am not saying that Bush's statement is therefore a lie. I am saying that Clinton's statement is pointless unless no new information was gathered. This is the lasttime I will make this point.

When Wilkerson and others continue to get more information over time from the French and from UNSCOM inspectors that corroborates the idea that Iraq (wrongly) had WMD, what are the CIA and Bush supposed to conclude?

Please show me this information. Provide a timeline.


Is a President supposed to believe his intelligence service, which is telling him the exact same thing that it told Clinton, or is he supposed to read tea leaves?

I am assuming that Bush had more up-to-date information in 2002 than Clinton in 1999. or whenever he made that statement.

And if he goes with what his intelligence service says, and if that is the same information they told the previous administration (and it most certainly is), then how does that make Bush a liar?

Bolding mine. This is your assumption, and it is a stupid one.

When you've finished trying to explain that, we'll go on to the second point.

I somehow doubt that you will discuss this at all.
Deep Kimchi
10-11-2005, 21:07
And you haven't showed that he didn't. So, what was the point of starting this thread?
Yes, I did.

I'm showing that it's not possible that he lied.

If acting on the information of your intelligence service, which gives you the exact same information they gave the previous administration (who also believed it) is lying then that makes everyone who ever listened to their intel service a liar.

And in the real world, I don't have to prove a negative - I don't have to prove that he didn't lie.

You have to overcome all the burden I've shown - and prove that he lied.

You would have to prove that he KNEW the information he got from all those sources was false.
Gift-of-god
10-11-2005, 21:13
You have to overcome all the burden I've shown - and prove that he lied.


Bush lied.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/politics/06intel.ready.html?incamp=article_popular

WASHINGTON, Nov. 5 — A top member of Al Qaeda in American custody was identified as a likely fabricator months before the Bush administration began to use his statements as the foundation for its claims that Iraq trained Al Qaeda members to use biological and chemical weapons, according to newly declassified portions of a Defense Intelligence Agency document.

...President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Colin L. Powell, then secretary of state, and other administration officials repeatedly cited Mr. Libi’s information as “credible’’ evidence that Iraq was training Al Qaeda members in the use of explosives and illicit weapons.
The Nazz
10-11-2005, 21:15
No, I'm a believer in Evolution... sorry to disappoint you.

We could argue about the merits of gun control in the US in another thread, but you'll end up hosed by Department of Justice statistics, just like CanuckHeaven.
And yet again, the point goes whizzing over your head. :rolleyes:
Gift-of-god
10-11-2005, 21:24
Another fallback charge is that Bush, operating mainly through Cheney, somehow forced the CIA into telling him what he wanted to hear. Yet in its report of 2004, the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee, while criticizing the CIA for relying on what in hindsight looked like weak or faulty intelligence, stated that it ‘did not find any evidence that administration officials attempted to coerce, influence, or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq’s weapons-of-mass-destruction capabilities.’

Maybe they missed this memo, then.

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-images/upload/bushrestrictedintel.pdf