NationStates Jolt Archive

Europe has been succeded over the last 30 years with no bloodshead to do to Turkey what America is doing to Iraq and has been now for 3 years with a massive ammount of bloodshead. Over these thirty years, Turkey has introduced 6 packages of constiutional reform to bring Turkey into line with European standards, with the intention of allowing it to join the EU. They have abolished the death penalty, introduced full press freedom, abolished the amry controled security courts, introduced zero punishment for torture in Turkish prisions, minority languages such as Kurdish, Bosnian and Arabic now have programms broadcast in them and has abandoned 30 years of intransigence on the Cyprus question. Iraq by comparison with what the Americans have done and what they are having to do, is a far worse affair. It is my opinion that the Americans could learn a great deal from what Europe has done here. In the Post-modern world America sees every country as a potential enemey. Europe sees every country as a potential friend. Which way will get us peace in the end?

I sincerely hope the least question was rhetorical or ironic.

I was actually ignorant of quite how much progress the EU has engendered in Turkey, however it would somewhat imply that diplomacy and rational negotiation, a "faggot" french method, is, to my shock, more effective and cordial than habitual invasions and sanctions.:eek:

Read my sig.

While the European method involves an incredible amount of patience and compromise, it is indeed more effective because it is a gradual process. By gradually changing, you create an environment that will welcome the evolution of changes. Whereas in Iraq, the changes were immediately forced upon them; they had very little say and many were left unhappy.

So, for getting it done fast? You can certainly count on the Americans.

To get it done efficiantly and effectively? Go to the Europeans.

They have it right... this time.

Read my sig.

I cant see it. How do you set it to see signatures.

We really don't have 30 years to spare, what with the people chanting death to America, and flying planes into buildings and blowing up our ships.

I cant see it. How do you set it to see signatures.
Somewhere in your profile, I believe. They have alway showed up for me, so Im not sure how to turn them on.

My sig says this ""A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
~ General George S. Patton ~"

My sig says this ""A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
~ General George S. Patton ~"

How is that true in the case of democratisation. Surely its better to democratise without bloodshead.

We really don't have 30 years to spare, what with the people chanting death to America, and flying planes into buildings and blowing up our ships.

Retalitating to Afghanistan was justified. Acting in Iraq wasnt. If you had acted in Europes manner before hand you would have not had this problem in the first place I suspect. And since Americans are always claiming about how they are so much more powerful than Europe, they should be able to do what Europe do much faster if their claim is true.

How is that true in the case of democratisation. Surely its better to democratise without bloodshead.
The point he was trying to make was that its better to take action as soon as possible, even if its violent, then to sit on your ass looking for a "peaceful" way out while people are dying. I think thats the general intent of the quote, judging from alot of quotes from Patton.

The point he was trying to make was that its better to take action as soon as possible, even if its violent, then to sit on your ass looking for a "peaceful" way out while people are dying. I think thats the general intent of the quote, judging from alot of quotes from Patton.

Surely in the war more people are dieing now than would have been if we had begun this process when Europe began the Turkish process.

Retalitating to Afghanistan was justified. Acting in Iraq wasnt. If you had acted in Europes manner before hand you would have not had this problem in the first place I suspect. And since Americans are always claiming about how they are so much more powerful than Europe, they should be able to do what Europe do much faster if their claim is true.
Wait a second. Bali? (not technichally Europe, but you get the point) Madrid?
London? France? None of them have had problems?

Carlo D'Este, in Patton: A Genius for War, writes that "it seems virtually inevitable ... that Patton experienced some type of brain damage from too many head injuries"

hmmmmmm ....

Wait a second. Bali? (not technichally Europe, but you get the point) Madrid?
London? France? None of them have had problems?

Those are not Turkish extremeists. You are moving the goalpoasts. Turkish extremists are not lashing out at Europe for trying to democratise it, but Middle Eastern Islamic extremists are lashing out at you for trying to democratise them. They are also lashing out at those in Europe who help the Americans.

Those are not Turkish extremeists. You are moving the goalpoasts. Turkish extremists are not lashing out at Europe for trying to democratise it, but Middle Eastern Islamic extremists are lashing out at you for trying to democratise them. They are also lashing out at those in Europe who help the Americans.
Heres your difference. Turkey = Country
Al-Qaeda = Extremist murderers

Apples do not = Oranges

Heres your difference. Turkey = Country
Al-Qaeda = Extremist murderers

Apples do not = Oranges
Iraq =/= Al-Qaeda.

Iraq =/= Al-Qaeda.
Tell that to Al Zarqawi! He might beg to differ!

~EDIT~ I'd also like to add that we are fighting IN Iraq, not AGAINST Iraq. Actually, last I heard, we were fighting ALONGSIDE Iraq.

Heres your difference. Turkey = Country
Al-Qaeda = Extremist murderers


Fine, the Iraqie insurgents then.

Tell that to Al Zarqawi! He might beg to differ!

~EDIT~ I'd also like to add that we are fighting IN Iraq, not AGAINST Iraq. Actually, last I heard, we were fighting ALONGSIDE Iraq.


Woo, woo, clue train coming into the station: We fought against Iraq because they 'had WMDs', not because after we invaded them Al-Quada might jump into the country with both feet (after...nevermind, that set of logic just makes my head hurt).

Quick reminder- Turkey is not democratizing because Europe waved a gradual democratizing wand at them. Turkey is democratizing because of the work of Kemal Ataturk who took great pains in rooting out the fundamentalist, medieval train of thought that had reigned supreme in the Ottoman Empire and had caused that nation to lag so far behind the rest of Europe. Most, if not all, credit should go to Ataturk, not Europe. Even now, unfortunately, the Refah party, a strongly militant fundamentalist group, is gaining ground despite any help from Europe. How are we to be sure that Turkey won't be sliding back from the progress borne on the wave of Ataturk's secular agenda?

Europe has been succeded over the last 30 years with no bloodshead to do to Turkey what America is doing to Iraq and has been now for 3 years with a massive ammount of bloodshead. Over these thirty years, Turkey has introduced 6 packages of constiutional reform to bring Turkey into line with European standards, with the intention of allowing it to join the EU. They have abolished the death penalty, introduced full press freedom, abolished the amry controled security courts, introduced zero punishment for torture in Turkish prisions, minority languages such as Kurdish, Bosnian and Arabic now have programms broadcast in them and has abandoned 30 years of intransigence on the Cyprus question. Iraq by comparison with what the Americans have done and what they are having to do, is a far worse affair. It is my opinion that the Americans could learn a great deal from what Europe has done here. In the Post-modern world America sees every country as a potential enemey. Europe sees every country as a potential friend. Which way will get us peace in the end?

To respond to the meat of this post intelligently, one has to agree with your premise that the USA invaded Iraq merely to bring democracy to Iraq. Read the many hundreds of different posts in this forum and you'll find that many, many people do not accept your premise. Apples still dont equal oranges.

Carlo D'Este, in Patton: A Genius for War, writes that "it seems virtually inevitable ... that Patton experienced some type of brain damage from too many head injuries"
He must have tried to get a fruit from a high tree!

We really don't have 30 years to spare, what with the people [...] flying planes into buildings and blowing up our ships.

Which wasn't done by Iraqis. So somewhat beside the point.


The point he was trying to make was that its better to take action as soon as possible, even if its violent, then to sit on your ass looking for a "peaceful" way out while people are dying.

A somewhat ironic statement, given the tens of thousands who have died in Iraq since the invasion.

Those two things can't really be compared. Turkey wasn't run by a dictatorship the way Iraq was.

Quick reminder- Turkey is not democratizing because Europe waved a gradual democratizing wand at them. Turkey is democratizing because of the work of Kemal Ataturk who took great pains in rooting out the fundamentalist, medieval train of thought that had reigned supreme in the Ottoman Empire and had caused that nation to lag so far behind the rest of Europe. Most, if not all, credit should go to Ataturk, not Europe. Even now, unfortunately, the Refah party, a strongly militant fundamentalist group, is gaining ground despite any help from Europe. How are we to be sure that Turkey won't be sliding back from the progress borne on the wave of Ataturk's secular agenda?You mean we should credit the guy that massacred the Kurds with bringing human rights to his country and demanding that someone finally admit that it was a massacre?

so far only America has been regularly on war
Europe nope
UK once with Argentina...

America needs war for the economy
but to justify the racket, just the us way of life

so far only America has been regularly on war
Europe nope
UK once with Argentina...

America needs war for the economy
but to justify the racket, just the us way of life

Why do people keep talking like Europe is a unified nation, instead of a conglomeration of nations???

Ok, without much effort on my part, lets see what military actions european countries were involved in...

World War I
World War II
Korean War along with the USA.
France in Vietnam
France in Algeria
Yugoslavia
Croatia
Bosnia
Chechnya
Russian vs. Afghanistan
Kosovo
Turkey vs. Greece.
(As you mentioned)UK vs. Argentina
European nations participated in the first Gulf War
And let's not forget the Cold War between NATO and Warsaw Pact Countries.

"Another important change that took place during the 20th century, is related to conflict locations. Before 1945, Europe was the most war-prone continent. Most significant in this respect were the two world wars. Many wars outside the continent also had European involvement. After 1945 this situation changed drastically, when most wars were fought in the less developed countries of Africa and Asia. There are two main reasons for this development. First, decolonisation and the wars of independence contributed to the increase of war in Africa and Asia. The second reason for this geographical shift can be related to the Cold War from 1945 to 1989. The emergence of the US and the Soviet Union as superpowers and nuclear protagonists deterred the two sides from engaging in direct, armed confrontation in Europe. On the surface there was therefore peace in Europe, but the tension between East and West was considerable. The nuclear threat did not stop the superpowers from intervening elsewhere in the world by conventional means. The Cold War was therefore cold only in Europe."

http://nobelprize.org/peace/educational/conflictmap/readmore.html

Why do people keep talking like Europe is a unified nation, instead of a conglomeration of nations???
Are you scared yet...? :D

Ok, without much effort on my part, lets see what military actions european countries were involved in...
Indeed. It was too much, but I would suggest that in the future, European countries will become more wary of going to war - it seems like Germany's weight might move the EU into that direction, now that it takes a more pronounced position in international politics.

You mean we should credit the guy that massacred the Kurds with bringing human rights to his country and demanding that someone finally admit that it was a massacre?

I never said that it was because he massacred the Kurds that brought human rights to Turkey. I am saying it was because of his suppression of the mainstream fundamentalism in his country, i.e. the fez, the caliphate, and his strong stance against radicals who threatened to overthrow his government because of his strong secular leanings, as well as the industrialization and development of Turkey, that would provide the groundswork for the human rights advances.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I said his killing Kurds brought human rights- in fact, I didn't even say Ataturk was good. What I am saying is that the only reason that there has been any significant progression is because he controlled the fundamentalist Islamic philosophy in his country, and any advances have their foundation in the control of these radical aspects. It was Turkey that wanted to advance in the first place, and it was because of their own internal desires, a result of the elimination of the authoritarian Islamic fundamentalism, that they chose to liberalize, not because of the desires of a foreign continent. In fact, those advances are likely to be rolled back, seeing as how despite Europe's efforts the Refah Islamic Party is gaining power in Turkey. Why is this happening if Europe really is solely responsible for these advances?

So Europe made Turkey admit that the killing of the Kurds was bad? That's nothing. They still hate the Kurds anyway- that's why they weren't allowed to send troops to Iraq. In fact, there might be a Kurd Genocide Part LXXIII if the Refah gets its way, and this would all be after these residual advances.