NationStates Jolt Archive

^The title pretty much says it all^

Was F.D.R., widely regarded as one of the "great" Presidents by historians, actually a fascist? Consider the following:

1.FDR's suppression of dissent:

A.Using the FBI, IRS, etc. to harass, spy on, and intimidate his critics [Franklin Roosevelt and American Foreign Policy, 1932-1945 (Oxford: Oxfored University Press, 1979), pp. 289-290; The Colonel: The Life and Legend of Robert R. McCormick (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1997), pp. 405-406, 424-428]

B.Smearing critics of his policies [Charles A. Lindbergh and the Battle Against American Intervention in World War II by Wayne S. Cole (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1974), pp. 130, 147]

C.Trying to suppress his critics' free speech rights [Prophets on the Right: Profiles of Conservative Critics of American Globalism (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1975) pp.197-201]

2.Militarism [In the Shadow of War: The United States Since the 1930s by Michael S. Sherry (New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press, 1995)

3.Racism [the internment of Japanese-Americans, Italian-Americans, and German-Americans, which I'm sure everyone here knows about]

4.His economic policy:

"The NRA provided that in America each industry should be organized into a federally supervised trade association. It was not called a corporative. It was called a Code Authority. But it was essentially the same thing. These code authorities could regulate production, quantities, qualities, prices, distribution, methods, etc., under the supervision of the NRA. This was fascism. The anti-trust laws forbade such organizations. Roosevelt had denounced Hoover for not enforcing these laws sufficiently. Now he suspended them and compelled men to combine." [The Roosevelt Myth: 50th Anniversary Edition by John. T. Flynn (San Franciso, California: Fox & Wilkes, 1998), pp. 39; also, read this (http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo85.html)]

-snip-
Quoting conservative views is very constructive. I'm expecting the Christian Right on this forum to be drawn by it like a magnet.
Start the truisms. On my count:
and a one, a two...
Whatever.

Nah, look at the Nazis and tell me FDR was fascist. He was nothing compared to them, really.

Nah, look at the Nazis and tell me FDR was fascist. He was nothing compared to them, really.

Agreed, few people (except Stalinists and Maoists) compare to Nazis, but that doesn't change the fact that FDR was a fascist.

He's my fave U.S President I know most about, and consequently the one I like the most :)

However he was very close to being a socialist. But private Enterprise was just a shadow of it's former self when he took office so he couldn't put money into that like the Republicans do today. There was no choice but for the Government to take up the slack. Thle abilities of Big Business died in 1929. And many of their leaders killed themselves. (Alot of the Major Stockholders commited Sucide after the crash) Times were Desperate, everyone had to go a little extreme to get things done.

There was too much demand and no supply in some places. And too much Supply with no demand in other places. The Economy was F*ed up. He had to take control of it. (Thats why in modern times alot of the New Deal ideas would make people Flip out.)

Italian-Americans and German-Americans mostly were left alone Ironicly enough. Some were interned but nowhere near as many as the Japanesse Americans.

Like I said many of his ideas were socialist in nature, but many people can't tell the difference between Socialist and Facist.

He's my Favorite President, and if he was such an Evil Facist why did people vote for him, 4 times!

If you want to talk about a Dictatorship US lets talk about Lincoln.

And then, of course, there's the myth that Roosevelt "cured the Depression" (a myth refuted by: The Roosevelt Myth by John T. Flynn; FDR's Folly by Jim Powell; "Regime Uncertainty: Why the Great Depression Lasted So Long and Why Prosperity Resumed After the War," The Independent Review, vol. I, no. 4 (Spring 1997), p. 586 by Robert Higgs; Crisis and Leviathan by Robert Higgs; and America's Great Depression by Murray N. Rothbard).

Then there's FDR's cozy relationship with Stalin (Roosevelt and Stalin: The Failed Courtship by Robert Nisbet; Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development, 1930-1945 by Antony Sutton; and National Suicide: Military Aid to the Soviet Union by Antony Sutton)

FDR's betrayal of Eastern Europe and China (Again, May God Forgive Us by Robert Welch; I Saw Poland Betrayed by Arthur Bliss Lane; and Ally Betrayed by David Martin)

His instigation of Pearl Harbor (Infamy: Pearl Harbor and its Aftermath by John Toland; Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace by Harry Elmer Barnes; Back Door to War: The Roosevelt Foreign Policy, 1933-1941 by Charles Callan Tansill; and Day Of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor by Robert Stinnett)

Agreed, few people (except Stalinists and Maoists) compare to Nazis, but that doesn't change the fact that FDR was a fascist.


Nazis werent totally fascist they didnt have enough in common with the real fascists(Mussolini) Nazism(Hitlerism more accurately) is a unique branch off from fascism

Nazis werent totally fascist they didnt have enough in common with the real fascists(Mussolini) Nazism(Hitlerism more accurately) is a unique branch off from fascism

Nazism is fascism x10, with racism thrown in.

So what "cured the Depression?" 'Big Business?' *Sacarsam*

And FDR had no choice but to give up Poland, I mean what fight Both Germany And Russia? That would be ****ing Mental. That's the only way we would have been able to save Poland by going to war with Russia also. Idiots.

Nazis werent totally fascist they didnt have enough in common with the real fascists(Mussolini) Nazism(Hitlerism more accurately) is a unique branch off from fascism
Elocquently put.

He's my Favorite President, and if he was such an Evil Facist why did people vote for him, 4 times!

The National Party were evil fascists, and South Africans kept electing them. Hitler was an evil fascist, and Germans elected him. Americans aren't the only ones who have been duped.

So what "cured the Depression?" 'Big Business?' *Sacarsam*

A return to free-market policies after the war cured it.

And FDR had no choice but to give up Poland, I mean what fight Both Germany And Russia? That would be ****ing Mental. That's the only way we would have been able to save Poland by going to war with Russia also. Idiots.

For your information, the book discusses the betrayal of Poland at the Yalta, et. al. conferences, not the 1939 Soviet invasion which the West ignored.

The National Party were evil fascists, and South Africans kept electing them.

Not all South Africans...

A return to free-market policies after the war cured it.
HAHAHAHA Seriously. There's no hope for you is there. The Depression was over by the time the war ended. The War itself cured the Depression.

And like I just said there was no way to 'save' eastern Europe. Russia would have taken it one way or another. We could have talked until their ears fell off, they would keep it either way. I wasn't talking about the 1939 invasion.

A return to free-market policies after the war cured it.
Oh, brave new world...

Not all South Africans...

I know, but those who could vote kept electing them. Like Mussolini and FDR, the National Party catered to peoples' fear and used that fear to persuade people to elect them.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA HAHAHAHA Seriously. There's no hope for you is there. The Depression was over by the time the war ended.

And like I just said there was no way to 'save' eastern Europe. Russia would have taken it one way or another.

Hey, I'm not the one who's too close-minded to read books, am I? Your knowledge of economics is comparable to that of a hamster.

I know, but those who could vote kept electing them. Like Mussolini and FDR, the National Party catered to peoples' fear and used that fear to persuade people to elect them.

That, and it was in the best material interests of that minority (however wrong it may be) to elect the NP. That's why they kept winning.

FDR's situation was different...at least everyone did, theoretically, have a vote.

So what "cured the Depression?" 'Big Business?' *Sacarsam*

And FDR had no choice but to give up Poland, I mean what fight Both Germany And Russia? That would be ****ing Mental. That's the only way we would have been able to save Poland by going to war with Russia also. Idiots.

Whilst I don't know enough about the FDR debate to comment (GCSE History being a long time ago and not very detailed), I will pitch in on the Poland issue. Whilst I agree it was a gross betrayal of a country that had always been loyal and fought hard against the Germans, much like Czechoslovakia, FDR had no real choice; military intervention was practically impossible due to an isolationist Supreme Court (I think), small military strength, concerns over Japanese agression, and the fact that the US forces could not have taken Poland from the combined military strength of German/USSR forces in 1939, even if Britain and France aided them.

This actually has piqued my interest however; what exactly did cure the Depression? My GCSE History seemed to point to the war process and increased industrial output, total war manufacturing etc. Is that correct?

^The title pretty much says it all^

Was F.D.R., widely regarded as one of the "great" Presidents by historians, actually a fascist? Consider the following:

1.FDR's suppression of dissent:

A.Using the FBI, IRS, etc. to harass, spy on, and intimidate his critics [Franklin Roosevelt and American Foreign Policy, 1932-1945 (Oxford: Oxfored University Press, 1979), pp. 289-290; The Colonel: The Life and Legend of Robert R. McCormick (Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1997), pp. 405-406, 424-428]

B.Smearing critics of his policies [Charles A. Lindbergh and the Battle Against American Intervention in World War II by Wayne S. Cole (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1974), pp. 130, 147]

C.Trying to suppress his critics' free speech rights [Prophets on the Right: Profiles of Conservative Critics of American Globalism (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1975) pp.197-201]

2.Militarism [In the Shadow of War: The United States Since the 1930s by Michael S. Sherry (New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press, 1995)

3.Racism [the internment of Japanese-Americans, Italian-Americans, and German-Americans, which I'm sure everyone here knows about]

4.His economic policy:

"The NRA provided that in America each industry should be organized into a federally supervised trade association. It was not called a corporative. It was called a Code Authority. But it was essentially the same thing. These code authorities could regulate production, quantities, qualities, prices, distribution, methods, etc., under the supervision of the NRA. This was fascism. The anti-trust laws forbade such organizations. Roosevelt had denounced Hoover for not enforcing these laws sufficiently. Now he suspended them and compelled men to combine." [The Roosevelt Myth: 50th Anniversary Edition by John. T. Flynn (San Franciso, California: Fox & Wilkes, 1998), pp. 39; also, read this (http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo85.html)]

1. You failed to define fascist.

2. A few right-wing books critizing FDR are hardly evidence he was a fascist -- particularly when many of the books you cite criticize not just FDR but US policy in General. Internment for example was not just an FDR policy.

3. Smeared Lindbergh = fascist? Pot calls the kettle.

If ever you wonder who the Great Satan is... look no further than FDR.

Nah, look at the Nazis and tell me FDR was fascist. He was nothing compared to them, really.

You will find that extremes breed extremes in equal measures. Both countries were in serious social and economic depressions; however Germany was much worse off because of WW I and as such the response was more extreme. Both FDR and Hitler exploited their nation’s depressions to gain and maintain power, both scapegoated and punished the successful to gain popular support, both of their policies were autocratic socialistic, both suppressed opposition, and they both used warfare to stimulate growth. The similarities are undeniable but simply to a lesser extent because of conditions. Also, American already possessed much more natural resources and industry then Germany which was forced to expand militarily to seize both from its neighbors.

A return to free-market policies after the war cured it.

ROTFLASTC

Hey, I'm not the one who's too close-minded to read books, am I? Your knowledge of economics is comparable to that of a hamster.
You didn't read my edited version, The fact that Businesses got profit from selling War material and that their factories got upgraded for selling War material which was able to switch over to comercial products easily was one reason why the Economy recovered. They had the ability to produce again. The war gave them the production abilities and after wards that production abilities was what gave them an edge in the Market. While the rest of the nations were rebuilding we had hundreds and thousands of Factories Businesses all running. And plenty of people to sell to.

I read plenty of books.


This actually has piqued my interest however; what exactly did cure the Depression? My GCSE History seemed to point to the war process and increased industrial output, total war manufacturing etc. Is that correct?

That's what I've read up. The free market just provided the trigger. Everything had already been prepared before the War ended. It was already a Win Win. And it was Government Money that paid for those upgrades.

After World War 2 what did Europe have. Bombed out Factories blown up Railroads, burnt out harbors. What did we have? Hundreds and thousands of Skilled workers, hundreds of Production plants, a transport system that was fuctioning, ports filled with new Transport ships. Food that had been Stockpiled for the war. The US was the nation. But then we all screwed it up somehow.

Game, Set, Match. I take it by the slience that I've won.

Agreed, few people (except Stalinists and Maoists) compare to Nazis, but that doesn't change the fact that FDR was a fascist.

I think you're using the term "fascism" a bit too lightly.

I think you're using the term "fascism" a bit too lightly.

Autocratic Socialist is much more like it IMO.

If ever you wonder who the Great Satan is... look no further than FDR.

Yeah, heh, small thanks to FDR for being about the only person on the planet smart enough to suss out Hitler and the Japanese Militarists.

Well him and that other demon spawn Winston Churchill, and yeah Gandhi was a Fascist too. (j/k)

seriously without FDR and Churchill, would our current civilization even exist, I wonder...

seriously without FDR and Churchill, would our current civilization even exist, I wonder...


Our way of life would be different:

Video Games:
Standing Firm at Normandy
Tora! Tora! Tora!
Sim Holocaust


Books like:
Never question
Submission is good.
Mein Kampf II


Movies:
Saving Grenadier Shulz
Godzillia crushes (uncle) Sam.
Bismark