NationStates Jolt Archive

Watching mostly Muslim ghettos in neighboring France burn with flames and discontent, a leader of Spain's million-strong Muslims is posing this question: Can Europe be more like America in its attitude toward immigrants?

"Either Europe develops and supports the idea of a mixed culture, or Europe has no future," Abdelkarim Carrasco told the Associated Press. "Europe has to learn from what the United States has done. It is a country that has taken in people from all over the world."

In light of the antipathy toward the US in much of the global Muslim community, this look-to-America observation is an ironic one. But the time has come to seriously consider it.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1109/p08s02-comv.html

Well, how about it, Europe? Granted, the record of the US on this score is far from perfect, but we have successfully integrated people from many different cultures into ours. (And historically, Europe itself is a land of immigrants - though many would vehemently deny it, the fact is that most Europeans are the descendants of central Asian tribes, a.k.a "barbarians".)

So can Europe accept a new wave of immigrants? Is European culture strong enough and dynamic enough to integrate them? Is it flexible enough to accept that the immigrants can remain Muslim and still become European? Or will Europe continue to treat its recent immigrants as outsiders?

Granted, the US might be better at integrating individuals, but society is also far more polarized than most European societies I've seen. I'm not sure if that's really worth the price...

Europe...Learn from United States!?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1109/p08s02-comv.html

Well, how about it, Europe? Granted, the record of the US on this score is far from perfect, but we have successfully integrated people from many different cultures into ours. (And historically, Europe itself is a land of immigrants - though many would vehemently deny it, the fact is that most Europeans are the descendants of central Asian tribes, a.k.a "barbarians".)
Fact is that you don't have a clue about history if you make claims like this.

So can Europe accept a new wave of immigrants? Is European culture strong enough and dynamic enough to integrate them? Is it flexible enough to accept that the immigrants can remain Muslim and still become European? Or will Europe continue to treat its recent immigrants as outsiders?
There is no European culture. The muslims choose to seperate themselves. We don't have to adapt ourselves to them.

Why should it have to? It's Europe, a homeland for European peoples. And from what I understand of it, it's already super crowded.

You have got to be joking. Whilst racial tension has been an issue in the UK, I find it laughable that the USA thinks it has anything to teach anyone on this front. In fact, the only solutions you have offered in the French situation is advice on riot control, not civil rights.

(And historically, Europe itself is a land of immigrants - though many would vehemently deny it, the fact is that most Europeans are the descendants of central Asian tribes, a.k.a "barbarians".)
:confused: Pardon me, but last time I checked in a mirror, I had round eyes and light brown hair. Unless you count the Cro Magnon as 'immigrants', you can't say Europe is a "land of immigrants". And in that case, the Native Americans are relative newcomers in America.

Fact is that you don't have a clue about history if you make claims like this.
Ah! You were faster. :p

o.o

Hey, I'm all for better integration of minorities, and I think we could do more in that aspect - But they have to do their part, i.e., muslims must put in their heads that we ain't turning islamic just because they want to.

Look, Paris is the second city of portugal, with one million portuguese and portuguese descendants. Half of us out here have a cousin in france, that went there in the 60's, 70's. Now, offcourse there was racism against us - in some accounts, there still is. But the thing is, we adapted ourselves to their society, without asking the french to change. Now, portuguese are white. Racism towards blacks is alot deeper, so i'm sure the french will have to show a more open attitude towards that, and be less racist. But some immigrants will have to learn that we are Europeans, and if they want to stay here, they have to abide to our rules.

The U.S. has not exactly welcomed all the immigrants of the world. America has a melting pot policy which encourages that different cultures become more like the American one.

Europe should focus on a policy of multiculturalism as its obvious there current model is having difficulties

Granted, the US might be better at integrating individuals, but society is also far more polarized than most European societies I've seen. I'm not sure if that's really worth the price...

Just talked to several recent immigrants (they work in my office). Russian, Indian, Egyptian.

They all say that the US is far more welcoming than Europe, and here they feel they can actually become Americans. They are also enjoying more economic success than their previous experiences in Europe.

The Russian woman said that she has friends who emigrated to Sweden and France. And although people there are polite, you are constantly reminded that you will never be Swedish and never be French, no matter how well you speak the language or adopt the local customs.

They don't see any of the polarization you seem to see.

Europe should focus on a policy of multiculturalism as its obvious there current model is having difficulties

Several French politicians I've heard speak on NPR say that multiculturalism in France would be a national disaster.

You will never have a mixed / integrated culture. At best, you can hope for tolerance. Any committed Muslim (or Christian/Jew/Satanist) automatically sees other culture as inferior - it's pretty much built in. Why else would you be a Muslim if you thought Christianty was equal or better. Integration is a nonsense. Multiculturalism is an equally bogus/paradoxical theory.
Unless we're all happy about the gradual erosion of distinct cultures into one big bland new age jelly. Microsoft Society 2005 ....

looks at 1950's america

Just talked to several recent immigrants (they work in my office). Russian, Indian, Egyptian.

They all say that the US is far more welcoming than Europe, and here they feel they can actually become Americans. They are also enjoying more economic success than their previous experiences in Europe.

The Russian woman said that she has friends who emigrated to Sweden and France. And although people there are polite, you are constantly reminded that you will never be Swedish and never be French, no matter how well you speak the language or adopt the local customs.

They don't see any of the polarization you seem to see.Not where the immigration is concerned. Society in General in America tends to be more of an "Us and Them" approach. There's seriously no public tolerance for someone like Ann Coulter over here. There's no deep rift between the pro-choice and pro-life groups over here. There's no deep rift between gay rights and ... in fact, there isn't really much of an opposition to gay rights at all in society.
American politics is far more polarized on key issues like abortion, death penalty, gay rights, and whatnot while there isn't really much of a big dissent on those issues in Germany at least. Our politicians fight about things like taxing the rich, raising sales taxes, and Turkey entering the EU (though that one is almost dead). There are no such issues which split the nation in half.

In the 2000-2004 period, while the ultraconservative Jose Maria Aznar ruled, 800,000 african inmigrants arrived to the spanish coasts, and many of them escaped from the border guards. ANd no, our country has not dissappeared nor is broken. The right-wing crowd , in their warm homes, fear about barbarian hordes burning the cities. But the left-wing people watches the arrival of inmigrants as an unavoidable (political and sociologic) movement.

I don't see such riots taking place here.

You will never have a mixed / integrated culture. At best, you can hope for tolerance. Any committed Muslim (or Christian/Jew/Satanist) automatically sees other culture as inferior - it's pretty much built in. Why else would you be a Muslim if you thought Christianty was equal or better. Integration is a nonsense. Multiculturalism is an equally bogus/paradoxical theory.
Unless we're all happy about the gradual erosion of distinct cultures into one big bland new age jelly. Microsoft Society 2005 ....I don't know, I don't really consider other "cultures" as inferior, just not for me. Just like I don't find rap inferior because I don't like it. It just isn't my kind of music.

You've got it all wrong.
Most of Europe, most of South America, Canada and some others = paradigm
US = dystopia

:confused: Pardon me, but last time I checked in a mirror, I had round eyes and light brown hair. Unless you count the Cro Magnon as 'immigrants', you can't say Europe is a "land of immigrants". And in that case, the Native Americans are relative newcomers in America.

Oh really? You don't know much about your own history, do you? Modern central Asians don't look like Europeans because their ancestors drove the ancestors of the Europeans out of central Asia. Ever hear of the Kurgan culture? They weren't from France, I'll tell you that much.

Funny, Europeans think that Americans have no sense of history because we have only a few centuries of it. But get much over a couple of thousand years, and most Europeans have no clue about their own. They continue to think of themselves as wholly indigenous, when they aren't.

:rolleyes:

Oh really? You don't know much about your own history, do you? Modern central Asians don't look like Europeans because their ancestors drove the ancestors of the Europeans out of central Asia. Ever hear of the Kurgan culture? They weren't from France, I'll tell you that much.

Funny, Europeans think that Americans have no sense of history because we have only a few centuries of it. But get much over a couple of thousand years, and most Europeans have no clue about their own. They continue to think of themselves as wholly indigenous, when they aren't.

:rolleyes:

Given enough time, we are all african descendants.

The question is mostly about our cultural anscestors than our genetic ones :p

My country is a Roman-Barbarian-Islamic-medievel country. Offcourse there were alot more people around here than romans, visigoths, arabs and christians around here, but their culture has been mostly wiped out, so they don't count much as ancestors, unless in the genetic terms; I probably had a phoenician great-great grand father, but none of is culture made it to influence me.

Not where the immigration is concerned. Society in General in America tends to be more of an "Us and Them" approach. There's seriously no public tolerance for someone like Ann Coulter over here. There's no deep rift between the pro-choice and pro-life groups over here. There's no deep rift between gay rights and ... in fact, there isn't really much of an opposition to gay rights at all in society.
American politics is far more polarized on key issues like abortion, death penalty, gay rights, and whatnot while there isn't really much of a big dissent on those issues in Germany at least. Our politicians fight about things like taxing the rich, raising sales taxes, and Turkey entering the EU (though that one is almost dead). There are no such issues which split the nation in half.

Those splits are largely superficial, and mostly the realm of talk show pundits and idiot politicians who don't have anything real to rant over.

Not the common topic of discussion here - which is why I come to NS.

Oh really? You don't know much about your own history, do you? Modern central Asians don't look like Europeans because their ancestors drove the ancestors of the Europeans out of central Asia. Ever hear of the Kurgan culture? They weren't from France, I'll tell you that much.

Funny, Europeans think that Americans have no sense of history because we have only a few centuries of it. But get much over a couple of thousand years, and most Europeans have no clue about their own. They continue to think of themselves as wholly indigenous, when they aren't.

:rolleyes:
Uhm... I don't feel I know nothing at all about 'our' history because I haven't heard of the Kurgan culture...
How does that make me believe that Europeans are 'indigenous'??

Besides, if memory serves me right, the continents used to be...a lot closer to each other than they are now. So I don't really think it's accurate to use 'modern' terms to describe what happend way back then.

Oh really? You don't know much about your own history, do you? Modern central Asians don't look like Europeans because their ancestors drove the ancestors of the Europeans out of central Asia. Ever hear of the Kurgan culture? They weren't from France, I'll tell you that much.
Europeans reached even western China, I'm not denying this. What I'm denying is that the Europeans have originated in Central Asia, as you claim. Some proof would be interesting. Not proof that Europeans lived in Asia, because I'm not contesting this fact. Evidence that the Europeans originated in Asia.

I don't know, I don't really consider other "cultures" as inferior, just not for me. Just like I don't find rap inferior because I don't like it. It just isn't my kind of music.

I clearly lack your tolerance for idiocy, bogus politics, lunatic religions etc.

Surely it makes more sense to accept our differences and move on rather than continue these ludicrous attempts to fit everyone under the same ludicrous banner of European / American whatever.

And who cares where Europeans originated. Other than a combination of biology and geography, what is a European ??

Not where the immigration is concerned. Society in General in America tends to be more of an "Us and Them" approach. There's seriously no public tolerance for someone like Ann Coulter over here. There's no deep rift between the pro-choice and pro-life groups over here. There's no deep rift between gay rights and ... in fact, there isn't really much of an opposition to gay rights at all in society.
American politics is far more polarized on key issues like abortion, death penalty, gay rights, and whatnot while there isn't really much of a big dissent on those issues in Germany at least. Our politicians fight about things like taxing the rich, raising sales taxes, and Turkey entering the EU (though that one is almost dead). There are no such issues which split the nation in half.

The "polarization of america" is an urban legend. In my opinion, 20% of the US population is either far left or far right and they make 90% of the noise. If you talk to 'normal' citizens of the USA, you'll find that there really isn't that much of a divide against gay rights or abortion, and that we tend to get more outraged about the same things as you.

Those splits are largely superficial, and mostly the realm of talk show pundits and idiot politicians who don't have anything real to rant over.

Not the common topic of discussion here - which is why I come to NS.What people watch and buy usually tells a lot about them. Do you think that these people would get as much media attention if people wouldn't watch it? No European country I know has trenches on such issues, even if only superficial, the way the US does.

The number one television show worldwide for years was Baywatch.

What does that tell you?

I clearly lack your tolerance for idiocy, bogus politics, lunatic religions etc.Yup. I don't discriminate against a religion or other cultural group. I pick specific actions, like blowing yourself up in a bus full of school children, that I will find inferior. I wouldn't assume that this condems the entire culture though.

The number one television show worldwide for years was Baywatch.

What does that tell you?That a lot of people have the same bad taste I did when I was younger. :p

There's plenty of talkshows and *cringe* Big Brother over here that feed their opiate to the masses, but US talkshows are distinctly meaner than German ones, for one.

But seriously, if the polarization is so superficial, why is the US the only Western country to still heavily debate evolution?

The "polarization of america" is an urban legend. In my opinion, 20% of the US population is either far left or far right and they make 90% of the noise. If you talk to 'normal' citizens of the USA, you'll find that there really isn't that much of a divide against gay rights or abortion, and that we tend to get more outraged about the same things as you.
You could say the same about Europe, Europeans and immigration. And, as always, most of the noise is made on the internet. ;)

United States: 1 country, amalgamation of individuals and small ethnic groups growing over time

Europe: 25 countries, amalgamation of large ethnic groups that have been living amongst each other for sometimes up to several thousand years at one end of the scale, and a thousand at the other end of the scale. Again, the basic flaw in the argument is taking 'EUROPE' as a single entity with 1 response to everything. Pick 1 country to compare with 1 country.

Europeans reached even western China, I'm not denying this. What I'm denying is that the Europeans have originated in Central Asia, as you claim. Some proof would be interesting. Not proof that Europeans lived in Asia, because I'm not contesting this fact. Evidence that the Europeans originated in Asia.
Aah. I wasn't fast enough.

That a lot of people have the same bad taste I did when I was younger. :p

There's plenty of talkshows and *cringe* Big Brother over here that feed their opiate to the masses, but US talkshows are distinctly meaner than German ones, for one.

But seriously, if the polarization is so superficial, why is the US the only Western country to still heavily debate evolution?

I have never had a debate over evolution that was not on the internet. And, that was just out of fun, not because I felt strongly about it.

I have never heard a debate over evolution that was not on radio, television, or the internet.

The "80%" that I mentioned earlier just don't care all that much.

Just talked to several recent immigrants (they work in my office). Russian, Indian, Egyptian.

They all say that the US is far more welcoming than Europe, and here they feel they can actually become Americans. They are also enjoying more economic success than their previous experiences in Europe.

The Russian woman said that she has friends who emigrated to Sweden and France. And although people there are polite, you are constantly reminded that you will never be Swedish and never be French, no matter how well you speak the language or adopt the local customs.

They don't see any of the polarization you seem to see.

That is the diffrence between Europe and America. Europe is the homeland of the European peoples. America is the homeland of the Indians whom the settlers did to a large part push out, to the point that Anglo-Saxon Protestantism became the American norm. I've been reading Samuel Huntington's "Who are we?" about the national identity of America and its more than revealing in this idea. Europeans know that imigrants will never be fully European in many cases, but we dont ask them to be.

United States: 1 country, amalgamation of individuals and small ethnic groups growing over time

Europe: 25 countries, amalgamation of large ethnic groups that have been living amongst each other for sometimes up to several thousand years at one end of the scale, and a thousand at the other end of the scale. Again, the basic flaw in the argument is taking 'EUROPE' as a single entity with 1 response to everything. Pick 1 country to compare with 1 country.

We have a winner!

Well the local Muslim popualtion in my area of England often refuses to integrate. Women here now wear the full veil and refuse to be examined by male doctors. We have people who refuse to remove their veil to collect the benefits we provide them with so that we can check we give them to the right person. The Muslim community in my town complained last year when we raised the English falg of St. George over the town hall to mark the annual saint's day. Some shops have been forced to take down Christmas decorations to avoid offending local Muslims. Politcal correctness has got out of hand. Until the Muslim community does more to integrate, they should expect negativity from the mainstream in society.

What do you mean by integrate? Why can't women wear what they like?
Women (and men) often have preferences on which doctor to see whether you're Muslim or not. There's no law against X-Mas Decs so was the pressure a matter of economics - loss of business?
Political correctness like capitalism is so bastardised it's not even remotely recognisable from its origin. Not everyone wants to be white, middle class, non-Islamic, English (whatever that means?).
Would you have the same attitude towards Scots speaking only Gaelic?

Well the local Muslim popualtion in my area of England often refuses to integrate. Women here now wear the full veil and refuse to be examined by male doctors. We have people who refuse to remove their veil to collect the benefits we provide them with so that we can check we give them to the right person. The Muslim community in my town complained last year when we raised the English falg of St. George over the town hall to mark the annual saint's day. Some shops have been forced to take down Christmas decorations to avoid offending local Muslims. Politcal correctness has got out of hand. Until the Muslim community does more to integrate, they should expect negativity from the mainstream in society.

We in the US are way ahead of you on the political correctness around Christmas. Seems the atheists were offended long before we knew about Muslims.

A local town here had to cancel a Christmas parade, and cancel the appearance of Santa Claus for politically correct reasons. Some atheists claimed that closing a public road for a "Christian" parade was mightily offensive. Especially with "Santa".

And there are those like Cat-Tribe on this forum who will explain that we do so out of a sense of our Constitution. So perhaps our country was molded to take in immigrants from the start. Not that we're perfect at it - but we have a head start.

A local town here had to cancel a Christmas parade, and cancel the appearance of Santa Claus for politically correct reasons. Some atheists claimed that closing a public road for a "Christian" parade was mightily offensive. Especially with "Santa".


So I suppose closing off part of a public road to anti-capitalist demonstrators is insulting to all the pro-capitalists? :rolleyes:

So I suppose closing off part of a public road to anti-capitalist demonstrators is insulting to all the pro-capitalists? :rolleyes:

Here in the US, it's a matter of "religion".

As an example:

Let's say I'm a politician, and I announce that I believe in God.

Now, after being elected as Lieutenant Governor, I decide to oppose the death penalty, and I cite that aside from all the other reasons, my religion prevents me from killing anyone.

There would be a hue and cry, and attack ads, saying that I am pushing my religion on everyone. It would be a big deal. Tim Kaine, the recently elected Governor of Virginia, went through this. He had to put up an advert saying that he would absolutely execute people who were sentenced to death - change his position because people wagged his "religion" in his face.

On the other hand, if someone opposed or supported the death penalty, and cited some school of political thought, there would be far less for the typical American political hack to get upset about - because you can push being a Republican or Democrat on people, but you can't mention your religion.

Ideas from religion in the US, even if they are the exact same ideas from another school of thought, are not politically correct in the US if you mention them in any religious context.

Here in the US, it's a matter of "religion".

As an example:

Let's say I'm a politician, and I announce that I believe in God.

Now, after being elected as Lieutenant Governor, I decide to oppose the death penalty, and I cite that aside from all the other reasons, my religion prevents me from killing anyone.

There would be a hue and cry, and attack ads, saying that I am pushing my religion on everyone. It would be a big deal. Tim Kaine, the recently elected Governor of Virginia, went through this. He had to put up an advert saying that he would absolutely execute people who were sentenced to death - change his position because people wagged his "religion" in his face.

On the other hand, if someone opposed or supported the death penalty, and cited some school of political thought, there would be far less for the typical American political hack to get upset about - because you can push being a Republican or Democrat on people, but you can't mention your religion.

Ideas from religion in the US, even if they are the exact same ideas from another school of thought, are not politically correct in the US if you mention them in any religious context.

Basically, sepration of Church and State (although Church just means religion.) Thats a given for a lot of European states.... not all mind, most.

Another do it like us thread.
The US is underpopulated, has underexploited natural ressources, speacks english and has two oceans on east and west. Its neightbours are Canada and mexico.
Europe is on the other side of the Ocean. It has an overcrowded population, resources are limited, its neightbours are the Middle east, Russia and Africa and talks several hundred languages.

Another do it like us thread.

that's what non-US posters keep telling us about foreign policy - "do it like us".

that's what non-US posters keep telling us about foreign policy - "do it like us".
You don't listen to them enough if that's what you hear.

Europeans reached even western China, I'm not denying this. What I'm denying is that the Europeans have originated in Central Asia, as you claim. Some proof would be interesting. Not proof that Europeans lived in Asia, because I'm not contesting this fact. Evidence that the Europeans originated in Asia.
Ever wondered why white people are called Caucasian?

Europe, like every other continent except Africa, was populated through a series of waves of human migration, each one changing, building on, and sometimes destroying, the previous one. Modern European peoples are descendants from other people from Central Asia that were pushed to the West by hordes of Mongols where they met the Roman Empire.

Most notable the Ostrogoths, Huns, and Vandals, who in their turn also pushed the Germanic tribes further West. These migrations directly contributed to the fall of the Western Roman Empire although they took a lot of their culture. That latest migratory wave ended about 1500 years ago, so it's very different to the American continent.

Eventually, everybody came from Africa, with the first modern humans arriving in Europe around 60 - 80,000 years ago. But modern Europeans will have very little if anything in common with them.

Here's a nice map of the Barbarian Invasions: http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~atlas/europe/interactive/map21.html

You don't listen to them enough if that's what you hear.

You've already made the assertion that you don't want to hear "do it like us".

What's good for you in that regard, is good for everyone.

Ever wondered why white people are called Caucasian?

Europe, like every other continent except Africa, was populated through a series of waves of human migration, each one changing, building on, and sometimes destroying, the previous one. Modern European peoples are descendants from other people from Central Asia that were pushed to the West by hordes of Mongols where they met the Roman Empire.

Most notable the Ostrogoths, Huns, and Vandals, who in their turn also pushed the Germanic tribes further West. These migrations directly contributed to the fall of the Western Roman Empire although they took a lot of their culture. That latest migratory wave ended about 1500 years ago, so it's very different to the American continent.

Eventually, everybody came from Africa, with the first modern humans arriving in Europe around 60 - 80,000 years ago. But modern Europeans will have very little if anything in common with them.

Here's a nice map of the Barbarian Invasions: http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~atlas/europe/interactive/map21.html
Oh puleaseeeeee.........The Ostrogoths and the Vandals were Germanic tribes. Yeeazz....Research is not high on peoples lists these days.
Honestly though. I expected this bull claim alot earlier.

What do you mean by integrate? Why can't women wear what they like? Women (and men) often have preferences on which doctor to see whether you're Muslim or not. There's no law against X-Mas Decs so was the pressure a matter of economics - loss of business?

Firstly, By integrate I mean respecting and abiding by local traditions and culture, as opposed to opposing and protesting against them. People should be free to do as they wish within reason but people coming into this country have no right whatsoever to supplant and criticise existing traditions.
Secondly, no people don't have the right to demand a female doctor on the NHS. You are entitled to medical treatment and that it is. Muslims have no right to second treatment. That is favouritism and dsrupts and already-failing system.

Political correctness like capitalism is so bastardised it's not even remotely recognisable from its origin. Not everyone wants to be white, middle class, non-Islamic, English (whatever that means?).
Would you have the same attitude towards Scots speaking only Gaelic?

Capitalism, despite your warped views, is not the issue here. Political Correctness is a socialist brainchild. You don't have to be white and middle-class. Nobody argues that. But when some members of immigrant communities disrupt the traditions and ceremonies of the majority, they deserve all they get. People cannot expect to get what they want instantly. Our tolerance would not be repaid in a Muslim nation. Tolerance only seems to work one way. Why can't women wear what they want in Saudi-Arabia? Why can't they even go out of the house without a man? That is ignorance. Also, Gaelic-Speaking Scots are a group of people who have lived in this country for many centuries. Their culture should be preserved too.

Oh puleaseeeeee.........The Ostrogoths and the Vandals were Germanic tribes. Yeeazz....Research is not high on peoples lists these days.
Honestly though. I expected this bull claim alot earlier.
Yes. But Germanic tribes are not called Germanic because they come from Germany, but because they share some common cultural elements and, in some form of another, have contributed to the modern cultures of Central Europe. Some of the Germanic tribes might have originated in Scandinavia, some in Northern Europe, some in the Balkans, and some in the Baltic and Caucasus.

The definition of Germanic used by an anthropologist has nothing to do with our definition of German.

Yes. But Germanic tribes are not called Germanic because they come from Germany, but because they share some common cultural elements and, in some form of another, have contributed to the modern cultures of Central Europe. Some of the Germanic tribes might have originated in Scandinavia, some in Northern Europe, some in the Balkans, and some in the Baltic and Caucasus.

The definition of Germanic used by an anthropologist has nothing to do with our definition of German.

He's right you know!

Yes. But Germanic tribes are not called Germanic because they come from Germany, but because they share some common cultural elements and, in some form of another, have contributed to the modern cultures of Central Europe. Some of the Germanic tribes might have originated in Scandinavia, some in Northern Europe, some in the Balkans, and some in the Baltic and Caucasus.

The definition of Germanic used by an anthropologist has nothing to do with our definition of German.
I never said they originated in Germany. Scandinavians are Germanic but certainly not German. Not even the German Germanic tribes were `German`. But non of them originated in the Balkans. But they moved there coming from the north. Point is they were most definatly not of Asian origin like you claimed.

I never said they originated in Germany. Scandinavians are Germanic but certainly not German. But non of them originated in the Balkans. But they moved there coming from the north. Point is they were most definatly not of Asian origin like you claimed.
Not all of the Germanic tribes originated in Asia. But a few did, like the Huns (edit: oops! meant Ostrogoths). Granted, they didn't come all the way from China, and were rather more in what we now consider the border of Asia and Europe, although I'm pretty sure they couldn't care less. But the point is more that what are now the cultures of Western Europe are a product of human migration themselves. Not new migration, but migration.

Not all of the Germanic tribes originated in Asia. But a few did, like the Huns. Granted, they didn't come all the way from China, and were rather more in what we now consider the border of Asia and Europe, although I'm pretty sure they couldn't care less. But the point is more that what are now the cultures of Western Europe are a product of human migration themselves. Not new migration, but migration.
LOL You are the first one I´ve seen to claim the Huns were a Germanic tribe. What load of bull. The Huns were the Huns and are related to the Mongol tribes and possibly the Turks. But never in a gazillion years are they in any way related to the Germanic tribes.

LOL You are the first one I´ve seen to claim the Huns were a Germanic tribe. What load of bull. The Huns were the Huns and are related to the Mongol tribes and possibly the Turks. But never in a gazillion years are they in any way related to the Germanic tribes.
Yeah. See the correction I made before you posted.

Sorry to dissappoint you again. But the Ostrogoths didn´t originate in Asia either. They were the part of the Goths which stayed behind in the Ukraine after the other part of the tribe, the Visigoths, left in Plus minus 295 AD.
They originally came from south Sweden. In 150 AD they left the shores of the baltic sea and drifted across eastern Europe for roughly 30 years before setteling down on the shores of the black sea and the Crimean peninsula. On which Gothic tribes lived for over 1000 years after the Ostrogoths departed.
Causing the first migration of nations.

Granted, the US might be better at integrating individuals, but society is also far more polarized than most European societies I've seen. I'm not sure if that's really worth the price...
American society is not as polarized you might think. Its only the politicians that are.

American society is not as polarized you might think. Its only the politicians that are.
Yeah. We had the opportunity to admire the non polarization in 1992.

Izatepopotla, I'm absolutelly horrified of your low level of historical knowledge. But if you don't master a subject well enough, then at least don't post.

Firstly, By integrate I mean respecting and abiding by local traditions and culture
That's not integration.

People coming into this country have no right whatsoever to supplant and criticise existing traditions.
Why not? The beauty of free speech and right of protest.

Secondly, no people don't have the right to demand a female doctor on the NHS.
Wrong. My local surgery has 8 GP's of which i can choose to see any.

PC thinking originated with the idea that extreme language such as ****** or faggot are probably not the nicest things to call someone who's black or homosexual. Over the years its come to mean (and be used unfortunately) as something else entirely.

Our tolerance would not be repaid in a Muslim nation.
In no way would i compare British and Saudi society. We thankfully don't live in Saudi and as such people, whether immigrants or not, are perfectly entitled to their opinions. And if that means grumbling about Christmas or supporting Al queda then so be it.

Anyway i'm glad there's been a bit of debate :D and not just endless to-ing and fro-ing about where we all came from.

Yeah. We had the opportunity to admire the non polarization in 1992.
You got the wrong impression. LA 92 does not represent the real US.

You got the wrong impression. LA 92 does not represent the real US.
Of course not.

Sorry to dissappoint you again. But the Ostrogoths didn´t originate in Asia either. They were the part of the Goths which stayed behind in the Ukraine after the other part of the tribe, the Visigoths, left in Plus minus 295 AD.
They originally came from south Sweden. In 150 AD they left the shores of the baltic sea and drifted across eastern Europe for roughly 30 years before setteling down on the shores of the black sea and the Crimean peninsula. On which Gothic tribes lived for over 1000 years after the Ostrogoths departed.
Causing the first migration of nations.
And those Goths also came from somewhere else. The Ostrogoths had been living in Eastern Europe, the nearer parts of Asia, where they mixed a bit with the locals, developed their own distinct culture, and befriended the Alans, and they had come from the Goths who lived in Scandinavia, and those Goths came from somewhere else too, who also came from somewhere else. That is the point, everybody comes from somewhere else.

And the Ostrogoths are not the only people that make up Europe, just the latest wave. If we go back another 2000 years we find human migration from around the Black Sea and northern Iran moving into Greece, and Phoenician sailors settling in Italy, pushing out even older neolithic tribes that also came from somewhere else. And those Indo-europeans and Phoenicians also came from somewhere else before that.

Izatepopotla, I'm absolutelly horrified of your low level of historical knowledge. But if you don't master a subject well enough, then at least don't post.
If that was a requirement to post in this forum, it would be deserted. :)

Besides, one of the things that makes forums like this (when it works nicely) is that through healthy debates you get to learn things, change misconceptions, and diversify your thought.

Especially when you don't master a subject.

If that was a requirement to post in this forum, it would be deserted. :)
You have a point here. :)

Speaking of the migrations now... There have been many migrations into Europe and out of Europe, but none of them changed the race of the people living in Europe, for the very simple reason that the migrators were much less numerous than the population they were invading. For example, the Bulgarians and Serbians are Slavs, because they speak Slavic languages, yet racially they differ from the Russians (most of them have brown eyes and black hair). The migration of Slavic tribes into the Balkan Peninsula changed the language of its inhabitants, but it didn't change the inhabitants themselves.

I'm not a white supremacist or some other sh*t, I'm just stating facts. Everybody comes from somewhere else, but the Europeans have come from somewhere else a reeeeeaaaaly long time ago. :)

Speaking of the migrations now... There have been many migrations into Europe and out of Europe, but none of them changed the race of the people living in Europe, for the very simple reason that the migrators were much less numerous than the population they were invading.

That and the fact that Europe is not a single homogeneous entity, if one part of Europe collapses, say when Spain fell to the Moors, the rest keep on ticking.


I'm not a white supremacist or some other sh*t, I'm just stating facts. Everybody comes from somewhere else, but the Europeans have come from somewhere else a reeeeeaaaaly long time ago. :)
And I think that was part of my point, too, and why it's not entirely comparable to the situtation in the US right now. Although, to be honest, I already forgot what I was trying to get at :(

Damn distracting boss!

And those Goths also came from somewhere else. The Ostrogoths had been living in Eastern Europe, the nearer parts of Asia, where they mixed a bit with the locals, developed their own distinct culture, and befriended the Alans, and they had come from the Goths who lived in Scandinavia, and those Goths came from somewhere else too, who also came from somewhere else. That is the point, everybody comes from somewhere else.
The Goths as I already said in my previouse post originally came from Sweden. The distinction of Ostro and Visigoths didnt occur until the late 3rd century. So the Ostrogoths did not originate in Asia nor were they a new tribe. And they din't didn't mix a little with the locals. They ruled over them. From the baltic coast to the black see from what is now eastern Poland to the Caucasus. As for the Alans. They didn't come as a tribe to Europe until after they were overrun by the Huns in 370 AD. Before that they were mostly mercenaries in the Roman army.
And the Ostrogoths are not the only people that make up Europe, just the latest wave. If we go back another 2000 years we find human migration from around the Black Sea and northern Iran moving into Greece, and Phoenician sailors settling in Italy, pushing out even older neolithic tribes that also came from somewhere else. And those Indo-europeans and Phoenicians also came from somewhere else before that.
If we go back far enough we all come from trees.

Several French politicians I've heard speak on NPR say that multiculturalism in France would be a national disaster.

I'd be very curious to hear which politicians.

It's generally accepted here in France that we are a multicultural society. It's very difficult to find any French person, at least here in the Paris region, who isn't a descendant of immigrants. Of my four best friends, two (unrelated) are of Tunisian Jewish descent, one is of Italian descent, and only the fourth is 'purely' French, in the sense that all his grandparents were French. I myself am of British descent (my mother is English, and my father's father's father was Welsh).

As an example, when I was still at lycée, quite a few years ago now, in my last year all the boys in the class were of immigrant descent (Polish, Arab, Italian, Portuguese, Armenian, from Benin, etc...).

In 2002, during demos against the National Front, the most recurring slogan was "Première, deuxième, troisième génération: nous sommes tous des enfants d'immigrés".

Simply, France's multiculturalism is different from, say, that of the US. We have a more ancient history than the US, and traditions we all hold to. Politicians harp on about "les valeurs de la République". But most immigrants integrate without giving up their own culture. Remember when French journalists were kidnapped in Baghdad? The leaders of France's Muslim communities spoke up in support of French laws and customs, and said that French Muslims were French and integrated. Which they are, for the most part, at least those I happen to know. Likewise when Sharon called for the "Jews in France" to move to Israel, Jews here replied that they were not "Jews in France" but "French Jews".

We are already a multicultural society, simply because we each hold to our diverse cultural backgrounds. We live our multicultural identity every day. Our system isn't perfect, obviously, but just because it doesn't mimick the US doesn't mean it needs a radical copycat-style overhaul.