NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/national/09dover.html

Not that I really wanted to start another intelligent design thread, but I thought you might be interested in learning that the people of Dover have rejected teaching intelligent design in science classrooms. Even if the schoolboard wins the case, the new schoolboard will likely overturn the teaching of intelligent design in science class.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/national/09dover.html

Not that I really wanted to start another intelligent design thread, but I thought you might be interested in learning that the people of Dover have rejected teaching intelligent design in science classrooms. Even if the schoolboard wins the case, the new schoolboard will likely overturn the teaching of intelligent design in science class.

As far as I know there hasnt been a vote on intelligent design by the people of Dover. Therefore, how could they have rejected teaching intelligent design in science classrooms?

Reminds me that Pensylvania isn't totally a Bush state. That's good, ID or Creationism was thrown out again. At least some people know what's up. :)

And its good to know they are willing to compromise, as in not having ID in bio, but willing to consider it being taught. Something I thought should happen ever since this whole thing first started. I just hope that if it does pass, its not mandatory to attend the class. They could even make a non-mandatory religious or multi-cultural study out of it, studying how different people think they came about. I'd take that.

And the source seems perfectly legit to me, the only problem is, you could generalize that New York is too liberal. But whatever.

As far as I know there hasnt been a vote on intelligent design by the people of Dover. Therefore, how could they have rejected teaching intelligent design in science classrooms?
They got rid of the people who introduced it.


This is excellent news, that the people actually showed that they were not pleased with what the school board did and ousted them in a democratic fashion. Now, hopefully the intelligent design side of the debate will still lose in the courtroom. I hope this is the death rattle of pseudoscience in a science classroom. :) But that may be too much to hope for.

Well Kansas is going the other way

(do not know if this has already been mentioned in one of the multitude threads on ID here)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9967813/

These are my two faves from the article


In addition, the board rewrote the definition of science, so that it is no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena.
That's right - the supernatural is now an accepted part of Kansas science.

Another board member who voted in favor of the standards, John Bacon, said the move “gets rid of a lot of dogma that’s being taught in the classroom today.”
Huh :confused:

That's right - the supernatural is now an accepted part of Kansas science.


Now that's really nice.

Soon they'll be teaching magic, Tarrot and Astrology. :rolleyes:

Like we're not already falling behind the rest of the world in science education. Jeez. I wonder what would happen if, say, the Ivy League schools came out and said that they'd stop accepting students from Kansas unless they got their science classes in order?

^^

Wasn't there a thread on this a while ago about some college refusing to recognise high school science qualifications from some religious schools and there being some uproar over it.

Can't remember how it turned out.

Reminds me that Pensylvania isn't totally a Bush state. 'Course not. I'm registered there (although I've never been to Pennsylvania).:p

Now that's really nice.

Soon they'll be teaching magic, Tarrot and Astrology. :rolleyes:Don't be silly. Those are obviously work of the Devil...:p

Don't be silly. Those are obviously work of the Devil...:p

Then it should probably read:

Kansas now accepts the supernatural as a part of science, unless it's obviously the work of the devil or simply heathen.


:p

Like we're not already falling behind the rest of the world in science education. Jeez. I wonder what would happen if, say, the Ivy League schools came out and said that they'd stop accepting students from Kansas unless they got their science classes in order?
Just think of it this way At least job compition in fields that require any sort of thinking will ease up

and so the fight back begins

for any 'intelegent design' folks out there be warned the forces of science are mobilising again

oooohh scary run away from the scary biologists you reactionary fools

and so the fight back begins

for any 'intelegent design' folks out there be warned the forces of science are mobilising again

oooohh scary run away from the scary biologists you reactionary fools
I would
Who do you think develops new wepons including biowepons :p

Then it should probably read:

Kansas now accepts the supernatural as a part of science, unless it's obviously the work of the devil or simply heathen.


:p

in as much as I am disappointed that kansas has decided to return to the dark ages, the above is particularly humorous. subjective science - an oxymoron.

even as funny as this is, the reality is that it is a very sad day for the united states of america. prepare to be ridiculed by the rest of the world.

Just think of it this way At least job compition in fields that require any sort of thinking will ease up
Or more likely, it'll get outsourced as well.

Or more likely, it'll get outsourced as well.

Outsourced to where? India? On the other side of the "globe"? ;)

Or more likely, it'll get outsourced as well.
Some ... though in my field I dont have to worry about such foolishness

There is no way to properly network administer out of the state much less out of the country lol

Some ... though in my field I dont have to worry about such foolishness

There is no way to properly network administer out of the state much less out of the country lol

Just get Kansas to rewrite the definition of "network administrator" so that you can

Reminds me that Pensylvania isn't totally a Bush state. That's good, ID or Creationism was thrown out again. At least some people know what's up. :)

I'm in Philadelphia and often forget that it wasn't entirely a Kerry state. The people here aren't just liberal they are all fanatics. But maybe I only think so because I grew up in Ohio.

Like we're not already falling behind the rest of the world in science education. Jeez. I wonder what would happen if, say, the Ivy League schools came out and said that they'd stop accepting students from Kansas unless they got their science classes in order?

The head of at least one department at MIT (from what I heard) has already said that no student from a school that teaches ID as science will get into MIT. (although I can't find the article right now).

And the National Academy of Science is apparently planning on refusing to let them use their books (which they have to use to meet No Child Left Behind requirements):

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,69512,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2

Last week, the National Academy of Sciences, or NAS, joined with the National Science Teachers Association, or NSTA, to tell the Kansas State Board of Education that it would not grant the state copyright permission to incorporate its science education standards manuals into the state's public school science curriculum because Kansas plans to teach students that "intelligent design" is a viable alternative theory to evolution. Kansas is scrambling to rewrite its proposal to win over the NAS and NSTA.

As far as I know there hasnt been a vote on intelligent design by the people of Dover. Therefore, how could they have rejected teaching intelligent design in science classrooms?

because they not only tossed the incumbents who put the IDiotic standards in place, but voted for people who explicity ran to oppose those standards.

http://www.dovercares.org/

The head of at least one department at MIT (from what I heard) has already said that no student from a school that teaches ID as science will get into MIT. (although I can't find the article right now).

And the National Academy of Science is apparently planning on refusing to let them use their books (which they have to use to meet No Child Left Behind requirements):

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,69512,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_2
That is damn good news.

That is damn good news.

I think so too. But, this will, of course be twisted in order to be construed as an "attack on people of faith". Total bullshit IMO, but political hacks will run it into the ground. The war on brains will continue...

I think so too. But, this will, of course be twisted in order to be construed as an "attack on people of faith". Total bullshit IMO, but political hacks will run it into the ground. The war on brains will continue...

Wait a tic, I thought ID had nothing to do with the faith of these people who wanted it...

The war on brains will continue...

Until people will be reduced to zombies no doubt. But instead of going "braaaaiiinssss", they'll be going "goooooooooooooodddd"

Beware the shambling masses of unthinking faithful. :p

Wait a tic, I thought ID had nothing to do with the faith of these people who wanted it...
Of course it doesn't.

Right now I'm flashing on that Family Guy episode where Peter and Lois are at the condo sales meeting where the salesman keeps saying "absolutely no flesh eating ogres." And then Peter takes the mystery box instead of the boat.

I have no idea where that was going.

Of course it doesn't.

Right now I'm flashing on that Family Guy episode where Peter and Lois are at the condo sales meeting where the salesman keeps saying "absolutely no flesh eating ogres." And then Peter takes the mystery box instead of the boat.

I have no idea where that was going.

But, I make dumb decisions all the time. Remember the time I could've had the boat?

But, I make dumb decisions all the time. Remember the time I could've had the boat?
A boat is a boat. But the mystery box could be anything. It could even be a boat!

A boat is a boat. But the mystery box could be anything. It could even be a boat!

You know how much the kids have wanted a boat.

Like we're not already falling behind the rest of the world in science education. Jeez. I wonder what would happen if, say, the Ivy League schools came out and said that they'd stop accepting students from Kansas unless they got their science classes in order?
I bet the schoolboards in Kansas try taking the Ivy League schools to court. And I bet they lose, too.

because they not only tossed the incumbents who put the IDiotic standards in place, but voted for people who explicity ran to oppose those standards.

http://www.dovercares.org/

You are assuming that an election on board members is the same as a refferendum on Intelligent Design. It is not. There were other issues voters had to consider. Im willing to bet that most people cared alot more about the refusal to raise teacher salaries or spend money on books than on the debate over Intelligent Design. You are acting like the people who claim that George Bush's election is proof that most people in the US were in favor of the Iraq war. They are separate issues. If I were a voter, Id be much more interested in the quality of the education than in the ID debate. In fact, I may be inclined to vote against the current school board, not because I disapprove of teaching ID in science class (I do not), but because with so many far more important issues, they are wasting time and resources on this petty legal squabble.

You are assuming that an election on board members is the same as a refferendum on Intelligent Design. It is not. There were other issues voters had to consider. Im willing to bet that most people cared alot more about the refusal to raise teacher salaries or spend money on books than on the debate over Intelligent Design. You are acting like the people who claim that George Bush's election is proof that most people in the US were in favor of the Iraq war. They are separate issues. If I were a voter, Id be much more interested in the quality of the education than in the ID debate. In fact, I may be inclined to vote against the current school board, not because I disapprove of teaching ID in science class (I do not), but because with so many far more important issues, they are wasting time and resources on this petty legal squabble.
I hate to put it this way, but the teaching of ID in a science classroom is directly related to the quality of the education those children will receive. You can't separate the two--they are the same issue. If those kids are taught ID as science, they will not be receiving a quality education.

I hate to put it this way, but the teaching of ID in a science classroom is directly related to the quality of the education those children will receive. You can't separate the two--they are the same issue. If those kids are taught ID as science, they will not be receiving a quality education.

Evolution typically comprises one chapter of high school level biology, that's all. It is done in anywhere from one to 5 lessons. The core of high school level biology is cell structure, mitosis, meiosis, and cellular respiration. The quality of education you recieve will not be noticeably affected by minor changes to one chapter.

Evolution typically comprises one chapter of high school level biology, that's all. It is done in anywhere from one to 5 lessons. The core of high school level biology is cell structure, mitosis, meiosis, and cellular respiration. The quality of education you recieve will not be noticeably affected by minor changes to one chapter.
It will if it introduces the idea of the supernatural into what is an empirical education. It digs at the very foundation of the scientific method.

ID has a place in the schools--in a humanities curriculum, in a comparative religions class, alongside the Genesis story, Native American creation myth, Egyptian creation myth, etc. But it's not science, and doesn't belong in a science curriculum.

It will if it introduces the idea of the supernatural into what is an empirical education. It digs at the very foundation of the scientific method.


Sorry, but that simply isnt significant compared to the other things the school board should be dealing with. Books, technology, teacher salaries, smaller classrooms, help for ESL kids, help for special needs kids, school violence, teen pregnancy, drug awareness. Those are the types of things that have a real, empirical impact on the quality of education. A few changes to one chapter of a science book used in only grade is more important than these things? I dont think so.

Sorry, but that simply isnt significant compared to the other things the school board should be dealing with. Books, technology, teacher salaries, smaller classrooms, help for ESL kids, help for special needs kids, school violence, teen pregnancy, drug awareness. Those are the types of things that have a real, empirical impact on the quality of education. A few changes to one chapter of a science book used in only grade is more important than these things? I dont think so.

When those few changes undermine one of the four main areas of study, yes, it's that important.

And, since when did it become the school board's responsibility to take care of pregnant teens?

When those few changes undermine one of the four main areas of study, yes, it's that important.

And, since when did it become the school board's responsibility to take care of pregnant teens?

Since student's babies started interfering with their education.

Since student's babies started interfering with their education.
So that makes it the responsiblity of the school board?

If a parent dies and the oldest child has to take care of his/her siblings, is that the school board's responsibility?

So that makes it the responsiblity of the school board?

If a parent dies and the oldest child has to take care of his/her siblings, is that the school board's responsibility?

Depends what you mean by "that". The simple answer is Yes. It is their responsability to make sure that the student is able to continue his/her education regardless of the added responsabilities.

Depends what you mean by "that". The simple answer is Yes. It is their responsability to make sure that the student is able to continue his/her education regardless of the added responsabilities.

Wouldnt that be the responsibility of the remaining parent?

And here I was under the impression that the school board was only supposed to deal with curriculum changes and what's on the cafeteria menu, etc. and not the personal lives of the students...but, I guess I was wrong about how much of an effect over my life the local gov't is supposed to have...

Evolution typically comprises one chapter of high school level biology, that's all. It is done in anywhere from one to 5 lessons. The core of high school level biology is cell structure, mitosis, meiosis, and cellular respiration. The quality of education you recieve will not be noticeably affected by minor changes to one chapter.Actually, by setting a trend in direction of worse education instead of setting a trend in direction of a better education, those changes, while minor, have a big effect.

Wouldnt that be the responsibility of the remaining parent?

And here I was under the impression that the school board was only supposed to deal with curriculum changes and what's on the cafeteria menu, etc. and not the personal lives of the students...but, I guess I was wrong about how much of an effect over my life the local gov't is supposed to have...

It is the parent's responsability as well. Responsability isnt an all or nothing concept. It isnt like a token that you pass around and say "well, since he has it, its not mine". Responsability is often shared among many people.

Yes, you were wrong. Even teachers should pay attention to the lives of their students. The great teachers know what to expect from each kid and how best to deal with them based on their situation (which has a great deal to do with their home life). If I know that student A has to cook for and take care of his younger siblings when he gets home, it is going to affect my expectations about the amount of homework he should be expected to turn in and how much of an impact not turning an assignment in should have on his grades. If I know that student B is lazy, I may call his parents, but not if I know his parents would beat him.

Actually, by setting a trend in direction of worse education instead of setting a trend in direction of a better education, those changes, while minor, have a big effect.

Of course, but a trend is the general direction in which something moves. One single item does not constitute a trend. If you saw a trend, then you should be concerned, but seeing one instance of something does not constitute a trend.

...If I know that student A has to cook for and take care of his younger siblings when he gets home, it is going to affect my expectations about the amount of homework he should be expected to turn in and how much of an impact not turning an assignment in should have on his grades...

So, it should be easier for a poor student to get good grades? Damn, if I would have known that, I would have knocked up a bunch of girls, moved out, and lived on the street. Then I would have gotten that scholarship to Harvard I wanted.

Sarcasm aside, grades are supposed to be completely objective. First you give a student that's poor or has a bad home life a break, then it's the student with the better attitude, next thing you know, the hot little girls who wear skirts and sit in the front row will be the only ones getting good grades. Damn, maybe I need to be a teacher...

It is the parent's responsability as well. Responsability isnt an all or nothing concept. It isnt like a token that you pass around and say "well, since he has it, its not mine". Responsability is often shared among many people.

Yes, you were wrong. Even teachers should pay attention to the lives of their students. The great teachers know what to expect from each kid and how best to deal with them based on their situation (which has a great deal to do with their home life). If I know that student A has to cook for and take care of his younger siblings when he gets home, it is going to affect my expectations about the amount of homework he should be expected to turn in and how much of an impact not turning an assignment in should have on his grades. If I know that student B is lazy, I may call his parents, but not if I know his parents would beat him.

So, the school board should be calling the parents of students who are having problems?

While a teacher (or teachers) might be interested in the well-being of their students, they have little to no responsibility to be that student's psuedo-parent. While they are free to do so, they are not forced to do so and thus are not responsible in that manner. Kudos to you for going above and beyond.

The school board is even futher removed from the students' lives and thus have no responsibility to ensure a child's education outside of the school system they are responsible for. If my daughter gets pregnant, drops out of school, and homeschools, is it still the school board's responsibility to ensure my daughter gets the proper education? Hell no.

It is not the school board's responsibility to ensure anything other than to ensure the schools they govern are providing the best education possible - not to make sure that all the kids in their district are properly educated and at school (this is why truancy is handled by the Police dept, not the school board). Hell, the school board doesnt even have the responsibility to make sure a student does their homework or passes a test. All the school board has the responsibility to do is make sure the resources are available.

Quite frankly, I'm apalled that you believe educators and the school board have the right to invade my home. While I appreciate the concern of teachers, they have no right to invade my home. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Generally speaking, the line should be drawn at the door to the school.

Of course, but a trend is the general direction in which something moves. One single item does not constitute a trend. If you saw a trend, then you should be concerned, but seeing one instance of something does not constitute a trend.There is a trend that's been going on for quite some time. American public education is one of the worst for a developed country. Continuing along that path and by refraining from stopping that trend would be bad, continuing along that trend would be worse.

So, the school board should be calling the parents of students who are having problems?


No. But the school boards do look at data gathered through studies to pinpoint the problems in their community and find ways to deal with them. For example, some communities have a big problem with latchkey kids (kids who go home to an empty house and their parents dont get there until much later), such schools could benefit from implementing afterschool programs. Other schools have a major problem with teen pregnancy and they could benefit from things like daycare programs, more flexible schedules, better birth control information in health class (or teaching health class earlier, or whatever the situation may be). Some schools suffer from a drug epidemic and need to boost afterschool programs and drug awareness. Others may have a problem with violence and need to boost security. Etc.


The school board is even futher removed from the students' lives and thus have no responsibility to ensure a child's education outside of the school system they are responsible for. If my daughter gets pregnant, drops out of school, and homeschools, is it still the school board's responsibility to ensure my daughter gets the proper education? Hell no.


No, because she is home schooled. Although in a lot of jurisdictions this still falls under school board jurisdiction, assuming home schooling programs do not fall under their jurisdiction in your community, it is no longer their problem. However, it is their responsability to make sure that your daughter could continue to enjoy from her right to public education if she wanted to do so. This would include things like: implementing more flexible policies so that she can continue going to school while pregnant, taking work home with her when shes too sick to go to school, etc.


It is not the school board's responsibility to ensure anything other than to ensure the schools they govern are providing the best education possible - not to make sure that all the kids in their district are properly educated and at school (this is why truancy is handled by the Police dept, not the school board). Hell, the school board doesnt even have the responsibility to make sure a student does their homework or passes a test. All the school board has the responsibility to do is make sure the resources are available.


It is their responsability to make sure that youth can enjoy the benefits of public education regardless of their home situation or personal problems. They are in charge of the public school system in their region, therefore they are the ones responsible for making sure that the public school system in their region caters to the type of students they have in their community (with whatever problems and/or home lives they have).

Quite frankly, I'm apalled that you believe educators and the school board have the right to invade my home. While I appreciate the concern of teachers, they have no right to invade my home. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Generally speaking, the line should be drawn at the door to the school.
Who said anything about invading anything? They simply need to cater the services they offer to their community. Every entity that wants to provide a service should do this, whether they be a business, a non-profit, or a government agency. Every entity should cater the services they offer to the realities of the community they are serving. If they do not, they cannot be effective.

There is a trend that's been going on for quite some time. American public education is one of the worst for a developed country. Continuing along that path and by refraining from stopping that trend would be bad, continuing along that trend would be worse.

As measured by what? The US education system continues to consistently produce highly competitive professionals in every field. Nearly half of the Nobel Prize winners this year hail from the USA.

As measured by what? The US education system continues to consistently produce highly competitive professionals in every field. Nearly half of the Nobel Prize winners this year hail from the USA.That blurs the fact that the US education system sucks on average. While the US is good at getting the gifted what they need, the average masses are left far behind. Those Nobel Prize winners do not make up for the gross deficiencies in the US education system.

That blurs the fact that the US education system sucks on average. While the US is good at getting the gifted what they need, the average masses are left far behind. Those Nobel Prize winners do not make up for the gross deficiencies in the US education system.

Of course, I mean, if we were to take LazyHippies word for it, there'd be no need for "No Child Left Behind."


As for the jurisdiction of the school board, it is their sole responsibility to ensure the availability of a good education. Nothing further. Anything further than that is an invasion of parental rights - however well-meaning the school board is. Same goes for teachers. It is none of the teachers' business what home life a student has unless it spills over into the classroom. That's where the line should be drawn. But I suppose that it's the Government's responsibility to coddle every citizen as much as possible? Heaven forbid people work through their own problems and the choices they make in life...

Of course, I mean, if we were to take LazyHippies word for it, there'd be no need for "No Child Left Behind."


As for the jurisdiction of the school board, it is their sole responsibility to ensure the availability of a good education. Nothing further. Anything further than that is an invasion of parental rights - however well-meaning the school board is. Same goes for teachers. It is none of the teachers' business what home life a student has unless it spills over into the classroom. That's where the line should be drawn. But I suppose that it's the Government's responsibility to coddle every citizen as much as possible? Heaven forbid people work through their own problems and the choices they make in life...I'd be very interested to see the kind of superhuman that would be capable of dealing with 20 to 30 individual students' needs anyway... I had enough trouble helping 8 children with their homework.

Like we're not already falling behind the rest of the world in science education. Jeez. I wonder what would happen if, say, the Ivy League schools came out and said that they'd stop accepting students from Kansas unless they got their science classes in order?

Actually, your latter point is already kinda true. It's not an Ivy League, but the University of California refuses to recognize high school classes that teach "intelligent design" or creationism as actual science classes, meaning that said class would not fulfill the science requirement for a student to be eligible to be accepted by a UC.

I'd be very interested to see the kind of superhuman that would be capable of dealing with 20 to 30 individual students' needs anyway... I had enough trouble helping 8 children with their homework.

I doubt anyone could. But I didnt say their non-schoolwork needs needed to be dealt with by teachers. They need to be considered (taken into account), not dealt with.

I doubt anyone could. But I didnt say their non-schoolwork needs needed to be dealt with by teachers. They need to be considered (taken into account), not dealt with.

We've been over this already. A students situation cannot be taken into account because that would be inherently unfair, put succinctly my allcoolnamesaretaken:


So, it should be easier for a poor student to get good grades? Damn, if I would have known that, I would have knocked up a bunch of girls, moved out, and lived on the street. Then I would have gotten that scholarship to Harvard I wanted.



My mother is a teacher and kids situations are not taken into account when grades are being issued. Due to the current climate of what a teacher is supposed to do however, they are expected to help deal with many of the kids problems as the parents cant be bothered to do it so its more work for the teachers. As someone in this thread has already mentioned, yes it is ridiculous to expect one teacher to help with the personal problems of 30 students, but thats maybe why teachers (at least the ones I know) work very hard, for little pay and are very underappreciated.

You are assuming that an election on board members is the same as a refferendum on Intelligent Design. It is not. There were other issues voters had to consider. Im willing to bet that most people cared alot more about the refusal to raise teacher salaries or spend money on books than on the debate over Intelligent Design. You are acting like the people who claim that George Bush's election is proof that most people in the US were in favor of the Iraq war. They are separate issues. If I were a voter, Id be much more interested in the quality of the education than in the ID debate. In fact, I may be inclined to vote against the current school board, not because I disapprove of teaching ID in science class (I do not), but because with so many far more important issues, they are wasting time and resources on this petty legal squabble.

I'm inclined to agree that ID wouldn't be my top issue in voting, and you are right that we can't know for certain that the people were voting specifically to get rid of ID. But since when do most voters vote for things based on the reasoning of what's most important? People vote based on sensationalized issues. Such as all the people who voted for Bush because of gay marriage. Why on earth should that be someone's number one issue with the state of our nation? Or all the people that worry more about the person supporting affirmative action then actually doing something about the causes of inequality (such as school quality, etc).

And I'd like to point out some other things. For one, most people don't usually bother to vote for school boards. Most people have no idea what their school board is doing and don't care. In my expeirence most people only vote in these elections because of a strong motivator to do so, such as a nationalized debate over the schools position on something. Also usally incombants are reelected, so whats the likelyhood of them voting all of the ID supporters out, but retaining the sensible members? And if it is anything like my home town, suggesting raising salery (or anything else that may lead to increased taxes) is a sure way not to get elected. Besides, I bet most of them were more worried about their town being the laughingstock of the entire country rather then quality of education.

I'd be very interested to see the kind of superhuman that would be capable of dealing with 20 to 30 individual students' needs anyway... I had enough trouble helping 8 children with their homework.
20 to 30? Naw, class sizes in my school are 40 and the Japanese teachers DO take an interest in their students individual needs, as is the role of a Japanese school teacher.

Thankfully I don't have to do the same (well, not quite, I still take an interest in their lives as it relates to English), but then again I see ALL the students and getting to know all 500 would be a bit much. ;)

We've been over this already. A students situation cannot be taken into account because that would be inherently unfair, put succinctly my allcoolnamesaretaken:





My mother is a teacher and kids situations are not taken into account when grades are being issued. Due to the current climate of what a teacher is supposed to do however, they are expected to help deal with many of the kids problems as the parents cant be bothered to do it so its more work for the teachers. As someone in this thread has already mentioned, yes it is ridiculous to expect one teacher to help with the personal problems of 30 students, but thats maybe why teachers (at least the ones I know) work very hard, for little pay and are very underappreciated.

Okay, I agree that grades should be objective. A stundent needs to learn to work through their personal problems to get good grades. That's what the real world is like. It's also inherently unfair that some people are smarter and don't need to work as hard, but we don't grade them differently because of it.

That said I think you are missing the point about helping students with needs. I don't think anyone in here is suggesting that you involve yourself deeply into the personal life of each student. But look at things broadly. If you have 15 teenagers with babies a daycare program makes sense. The individual teachers don't have to personally involve themselves in these students lives. You just need to get someone to run the daycare and your set.

Schools need to be aware of these problems. The goal of public education is public education after all. If the public isn't being educated shouldn't we find out why and deal with it? Some school districts are so full of problems that are not directly linked to education that if they weren't dealt with nobody would learn anything.

If I were at a school where half the students were getting high in the bathroom, stabings were occuring at recess, and a significant portion of the girls where pregnant I doubt I would be able to focus even if I didn't have any of these problems.

Oh applying your logic there is no need to make accomidations for the handicaped. Who cares if they can't physically get up the stairs in order to get to class? Why is that the school boards problem? The school board should focus on books and resources, not helping this one student, right? Just like the handicaped can't help being so, students where one parent is dead and the other is working 80 hours a week so they have to help take care of their siblings can't help being in that situation.

Evolution typically comprises one chapter of high school level biology, that's all. It is done in anywhere from one to 5 lessons. The core of high school level biology is cell structure, mitosis, meiosis, and cellular respiration. The quality of education you recieve will not be noticeably affected by minor changes to one chapter.

It's just that the changes would not be minor. Do you know how many creation myths are out there? You cannot allow one and skip all the others, so you'd probably have to cut back on other essential parts of biology. Would you like your children to be tough about Norse creation mythology instead of photosyntheses? In a biology class?

Besides, allowing the supernatural to be part of science simply does undermine the very meaning of science. The role of science is to explain things we don't understand and when we add the supernatural, we would be explaining things we don't understand with things we don't understand.

Would you like your children to be tough about Norse creation mythology instead of photosyntheses? In a biology class?


We might as well whip out Tolkein's Silmarillion and read it as well... LOL