NationStates Jolt Archive

Voters in Virginia and New Jersey went to the polls Tuesday to pick new governors, and Californians were giving their verdict on four ballot measures that have become a major political test for Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Pre-election polls showed close governor's contests in both Virginia and New Jersey for open seats now held by Democrats.

New Yorkers also were deciding whether to give Mayor Michael Bloomberg a second term. Polls going into Election Day suggested that Bloomberg, a Republican, would coast to victory.

Polls close at 7 p.m. in Virginia, 8 p.m. in New Jersey and 9 p.m. in New York.-CNN
Full article here (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/08/election.roundup/index.html)

So, elections are here again in the US, and observers are watching closely. NJ and VA have tight presidential elections, while Schwarzenegger has several important propositions on the ballot. Mayoral races in several large cities, like NY and Boston, although more predictable, are also tonight. It will be interesting to see the results later, and what it, if anything, it suggests for the near term politics of America( Midterm congressional elections next year and presidential ones in 08")

Arnold here might get ****ed, considering the campaign against his initiatives compeltely overshadowerd the campaigns in favor of them.

Bloomberg will win the NYC race. He'll also win by the biggest margin of any Republican Mayor in NYC history. Gerrymandering will continue to keep republicans from the city council, despite Bloomberg's huge win.

What exactly did Ahhnold put up for vote?

As a New Yorker (1 who can't vote yet, but wishes he could) Bloomberg is about the only republican I could stand as Mayor (Besides, he's left leaning anyway) as for the council, It will allways be in Democratic hands due to CITY DEMOGRAPHICS. We're more democratic by percentage than Utah is republican. :)

What exactly did Ahhnold put up for vote?


Redistricting by judges, limitations on union spending, limitations on tenure for teachers, and one other I can't even remember, having voted about 45 minutes ago. :p Shows how memorable it must've been, there.

I voted "yes" on most of them.. although I think if (of 73-77), two of them pass, it'll have been a good day for Arnold.

Redistricting by judges, limitations on union spending, limitations on tenure for teachers, and one other I can't even remember, having voted about 45 minutes ago. :p Shows how memorable it must've been, there.

I voted "yes" on most of them.. although I think if (of 73-77), two of them pass, it'll have been a good day for Arnold.
73, the one that forces minors to notify parents before having an abortion done on them, will definately pass. I can't see it not passing.

73, the one that forces minors to notify parents before having an abortion done on them, will definately pass. I can't see it not passing.

I think so too.. as liberal as we are, we still rejected gay marriage with 61% voting against.. I think 73's gonna squeak by if turnout is low, and pass by larger margins if more ordinary voters show up (that is, voters not connected to some interest group).

I think so too.. as liberal as we are, we still rejected gay marriage with 61% voting against.. I think 73's gonna squeak by if turnout is low, and pass by larger margins if more ordinary voters show up (that is, voters not connected to some interest group).
Well, this is completely different from gay marriage...

Well, this is completely different from gay marriage...

Of course it is. What I meant was that we have it in us, potentially, historically, to pass a socially conservative measure..

Yes..but people who vote that way tend to vote similarly on other issues...not to generalize, that's stupid... but if you oppose gay marriage you COULD vote along the conservative line straight through.

I wish us Neew Yorkers could vote against MSNBC's recent move to give a place in the TV news world back to :shudder: Connie Chung;)

As a New Yorker (1 who can't vote yet, but wishes he could) Bloomberg is about the only republican I could stand as Mayor (Besides, he's left leaning anyway) as for the council, It will allways be in Democratic hands due to CITY DEMOGRAPHICS. We're more democratic by percentage than Utah is republican. :)

I am not saying that there would ever be a majority, but it would be nice to think that the thirty something percent that votes republican would get more than 1-2 seats out of the available 42.

Hm.. seems like radio silence on the initiatives on local T.V. and internet.. either we didn't do exit polls or no one's gonna leak the info early.. I dunno if I'll be awake at 8.. :(

Anyway, anyone notice how heavy traffic was today? I'd call that a good sign, but it coulda been my eyes playing tricks. All I know is that the 10, 60, 91 and 57 were slow all day.. maybe that means decent turnout, but maybe not. My polling place was 30 yards from my door, but it coulda been people leaving work early or something.. seems unusual.

Long story short:

Historically? No.

This time? Who knows?

Will it be hyped either way? You bet your Pringles-eatin' ass it will.



Even though it does seem like trouble for the Republicans.

(runs.)

Actually, there are 4 non-democrats: 3 republicans, 1 working families:D

Yay my first post in the past 6 months. Anyway, it certainly looks like the 6th year rule will continue given the elections in NJ and VA. A good friend of mine in Virginia worked on Tim Kaine's campaign, so all is good.

Well, with about 90% of the votes counted, Kaine's ahead by about 84,000 votes (http://sbe.virginiainteractive.org/index.htm) which comes to nearly 5 percentage points, so he cruised.

And with nearly half the votes counted, Corzine is up by nearly 10 points (http://www.nj.com/elections/electioncoverage/), 86,000 votes, though no one's called it yet, so who knows if that will close any.

Much as I would like this to be a referendum on Bush, I'm not going to read too much into this--these are local races, and at least in VA, from what I've been reading, Kilgore ran away from Bush except at the very end, and that was more a desperation play than anything else. I hope it's a sign of what's to come in 2006, but I'm not counting on it.

UPDATE: The NJ site just called it for Corzine. and the VA site now has Kaine up by 93,000 votes.

I'm still waiting on the CA results.. tryin' to keep my eyes open. Two Democrats replacing two other Democrats ain't news.. that's the norm.. incumbents tend to do that, and Kaine was endorsed by a popular former Governor (Warner had 70+ approval).. Corzine didn't have incumbent support, but New Jersey is deep blue, so I'm not surprised.. Meh.

I agree, you can't read much into it. That said, I'm happy Democrats are gaining ground. Interestingly, The New York Times wrote a piece a few weeks back about how some people wished Codey would have ran, as he showed good leadership in his short tenure, but Corzine was the obvious canidate from the begining.

I agree, you can't read much into it. That said, I'm happy Democrats are gaining ground. Furthermore, Virginia, a state bush won by 9 points, might be especially meaningful.
Especially since there's a Senate race there next year--might be a chance for a pickup if there's some momentum going forward out of this election.

Interestingly, The New York Times wrote a piece a few weeks back about how some people wished Codey would have ran, as he showed good leadership in his short tenure, but Corzine was the obvious canidate from the begining.
Codey's a Democrat, right? I think I heard something about Corzine appointing him to be Senator once he steps down to be governor.

This (http://vote2005.ss.ca.gov/Returns/prop/00.htm) CA government site will post updates of voting results every 10 mins. starting 8pm Pacific/11pm eastern

Codey's a Democrat, right? I think I heard something about Corzine appointing him to be Senator once he steps down to be governor.
Might want to brush up on your US government facts: senators are ELECTED, not APPOINTED!

Might want to brush up on your US government facts: senators are ELECTED, not APPOINTED!
Not replacements--they're appointed until the next election rolls around, so Corzine would appoint a replacement to hold the seat until the 2006 election.

*hangs head in shame of stupidity*:)

-CNN
Full article here (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/08/election.roundup/index.html)

So, elections are here again in the US, and observers are watching closely. NJ and VA have tight presidential elections, while Schwarzenegger has several important propositions on the ballot. Mayoral races in several large cities, like NY and Boston, although more predictable, are also tonight. It will be interesting to see the results later, and what it, if anything, it suggests for the near term politics of America( Midterm congressional elections next year and presidential ones in 08")

Full update, Virginia results...

Governor: Tim Kaine [D] (51.71%)
(Won over Jerry Kilgore [R], 46.02%)

Lieutenant Governor: Bill Bollings [R] (50.66%)
(Won over Leslie Byrne [D], 49.15%)

Attorney General: [Recount]
(R. McDonnel [R] 50.04% - R. Deeds [D] 49.88% : Final results pending)

[Virginia elects Governors and Lieutenant Governors on seperate ballots... therefore we can have split power in our executive between parties]

Full update, Virginia results...

Governor: Tim Kaine [D] (51.71%)
(Won over Jerry Kilgore [R], 46.02%)

Lieutenant Governor: Bill Bollings [R] (50.66%)
(Won over Leslie Byrne [D], 49.15%)

Attorney General: [Recount]
(R. McDonnel [R] 50.04% - R. Deeds [D] 49.88% : Final results pending)

[Virginia elects Governors and Lieutenant Governors on seperate ballots... therefore we can have split power in our executive between parties]

Note that the centrist Democrat wins (Kaine) and the liberal Democrat (Byrne) is rejected in Virginia.

Kaine had to promise that he would uphold the death penalty - not something you hear from the typical liberal. He's also not going to touch Virginia's gun laws - once again, not something you hear from the typical liberal. He also is quite vocal about his belief in God - something you don't hear from a typical liberal. Both he and former governor Warner are to the right of center politically - the fact that they are Democrats is not a real indication of their policy stance.

Byrne, on the other hand, doesn't have a right arm - she cut it off because it offended her.

Note that the centrist Democrat wins (Kaine) and the liberal Democrat (Byrne) is rejected in Virginia.

Kaine had to promise that he would uphold the death penalty - not something you hear from the typical liberal. He's also not going to touch Virginia's gun laws - once again, not something you hear from the typical liberal. He also is quite vocal about his belief in God - something you don't hear from a typical liberal. Both he and former governor Warner are to the right of center politically - the fact that they are Democrats is not a real indication of their policy stance.

Byrne, on the other hand, doesn't have a right arm - she cut it off because it offended her.
You know, you might as well write the words "straw man" in place of "typical" in that post there--it would be way more accurate. And let's look at the difference in votes. the one you cast as liberal lost by 1.5 percentage points--that's a tight race by any measure. Maybe Virginia is trending more liberal than you think it is, since the moderate Kaine won resoundingly, by more than 5.5 percentage points.

Or maybe Kaine was just that much better of a candidate? Hmmmm?

You know, you might as well write the words "straw man" in place of "typical" in that post there--it would be way more accurate. And let's look at the difference in votes. the one you cast as liberal lost by 1.5 percentage points--that's a tight race by any measure. Maybe Virginia is trending more liberal than you think it is, since the moderate Kaine won resoundingly, by more than 5.5 percentage points.

Or maybe Kaine was just that much better of a candidate? Hmmmm?

Kaine is a clone of Warner, and ran solely on the promise of continuing exactly like Warner.

Warner IS popular - because he has basically turned into a moderate Republican with a Democratic label. By contrast, Republican that run against that have to move to the right, and lose votes.

Move to the left, and you lose votes.

Virginia is centrist largely because people are happy with the way the state is being run. They like their felons executed. They like carrying guns. They like the schools the way they are (more money for schools is always popular though). The state is fighting suburban sprawl. And the state is experiencing economic growth and good employment. Coming on the stage and announcing that you're going to dump the cart is a recipe for failure.

I might note that in balance to Warner, the legislature became more Republican after he was elected. Once again, balance.

Currently, by an independent study, Virginia state government is rated the 2nd most efficient in the nation - we don't have the brutal combination of taxation and lousy state government that is in place in states like New Jersey.

Kaine is a clone of Warner, and ran solely on the promise of continuing exactly like Warner.

Warner IS popular - because he has basically turned into a moderate Republican with a Democratic label. By contrast, Republican that run against that have to move to the right, and lose votes.

Move to the left, and you lose votes.

Virginia is centrist largely because people are happy with the way the state is being run. They like their felons executed. They like carrying guns. They like the schools the way they are (more money for schools is always popular though). The state is fighting suburban sprawl. And the state is experiencing economic growth and good employment. Coming on the stage and announcing that you're going to dump the cart is a recipe for failure.

I might note that in balance to Warner, the legislature became more Republican after he was elected. Once again, balance.

Currently, by an independent study, Virginia state government is rated the 2nd most efficient in the nation - we don't have the brutal combination of taxation and lousy state government that is in place in states like New Jersey.Two things--one is that in order to be considered Republican these days, you have to pledge to cut taxes. Kilgore did that, and it cost him in this election. Not exactly a rightward move. Secondly, that still doesn't explain how, if you're going to win by moving right, a person like Byrne, who you claim is sooooo liberal, comes within a hair's breadth of winning this state-wide election. How conservative can the state really be if a liberal garners over 49% of the vote?

And by the way, the Democrats gained seats in the VA legislature this election cycle as well.

Two things--one is that in order to be considered Republican these days, you have to pledge to cut taxes. Kilgore did that, and it cost him in this election. Not exactly a rightward move. Secondly, that still doesn't explain how, if you're going to win by moving right, a person like Byrne, who you claim is sooooo liberal, comes within a hair's breadth of winning this state-wide election. How conservative can the state really be if a liberal garners over 49% of the vote?

And by the way, the Democrats gained seats in the VA legislature this election cycle as well.

Byrne gets a lot of votes in Northern Virginia, which has a high population and is liberal.

You have to move more right than Byrne. You can't move as far as Kilgore (who is forced to move right because Kaine already sits in the middle).

I loved Kaine's commercials where he said he deeply believed in God, and would uphold the death penalty and execute convicts.

I had this mental picture of Democrats pulling their hair out.

Unsurprisingly Bloomberg won. My question is: will people be happy when he rolls back last call from 4am to 1am?

Unsurprisingly Bloomberg won. My question is: will people be happy when he rolls back last call from 4am to 1am?

Probably a more important issue than most.

Byrne gets a lot of votes in Northern Virginia, which has a high population and is liberal.

You have to move more right than Byrne. You can't move as far as Kilgore (who is forced to move right because Kaine already sits in the middle).

I loved Kaine's commercials where he said he deeply believed in God, and would uphold the death penalty and execute convicts.

I had this mental picture of Democrats pulling their hair out.
See, this is why I said you ought to replace "liberal" with "straw man" above. You seem to have this notion that all Democrats are opposed to the death penalty when that's simply not true. Some of us are, but it's not like there's a "be like us or get out of the party" rule on about it. Same with abortion. Same with any number of issues that opponents try to tag us with--we're not the monolithic hive mind you seem to want to make us out to be.

Kaine's statement makes perfect sense to the average Democrat--I believe this way, but I won't impose my personal beliefs on the law. In many ways, that's the pro-choice position on abortion in a nutshell.

Probably a more important issue than most.

Fuck yeah. This is a real quality of life issue for me.

One of the reasons I have stayed in NYC is that I can live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood, but when the need arises, I can walk to a decent bar at 2am on saturday morning and get loaded. If this 1 am shit gets passed, I might as well just move to Westchester.

Stupid Bloomberg. (Though he did let the liquor stores open on sunday, I will give him that).

See, this is why I said you ought to replace "liberal" with "straw man" above. You seem to have this notion that all Democrats are opposed to the death penalty when that's simply not true. Some of us are, but it's not like there's a "be like us or get out of the party" rule on about it. Same with abortion. Same with any number of issues that opponents try to tag us with--we're not the monolithic hive mind you seem to want to make us out to be.

Kaine's statement makes perfect sense to the average Democrat--I believe this way, but I won't impose my personal beliefs on the law. In many ways, that's the pro-choice position on abortion in a nutshell.

Actually, it makes perfect sense to the average centrist - Democrat or Republican.

When I refer to "Democrat" or "Republican" as a strawman, I am referring to those who are the party hacks, not the centrists.

If there were a centrist party in the US, it would do well.

However, neither party seems to tolerate a centrist once he is elected. It seems like winning the office is what counts for the hacks.

Schumer, for example, is a hack. He believes that anyone who professes a belief in God is "outside the mainstream". Well, I guess that Warner and Kaine are "outside the mainstream" for Schumer.

Contrary to his opinion, Schumer is outside the mainstream on a great many issues himself.

Note that the centrist Democrat wins (Kaine) and the liberal Democrat (Byrne) is rejected in Virginia.

Kaine had to promise that he would uphold the death penalty - not something you hear from the typical liberal. He's also not going to touch Virginia's gun laws - once again, not something you hear from the typical liberal. He also is quite vocal about his belief in God - something you don't hear from a typical liberal. Both he and former governor Warner are to the right of center politically - the fact that they are Democrats is not a real indication of their policy stance.

Byrne, on the other hand, doesn't have a right arm - she cut it off because it offended her.

Hardly rejected. It was close on all counts.... In fact, the AG and LT.G races were closer than the governors race.

1. Kaine did not promise to uphold the Death Penality.... He promised to uphold the law, and the decisions handed out by the judiciary.
2. There is no such thing as a "Typical Liberal"... You listen to too much of that crap spewed out by idiots such as Limbaugh and Savage...
3. Governors don't "touch" laws, that's what the House of Delegates and Senate does... the executive signs laws which have been passed by the aforementioned legislative bodies...
4. Many liberals talk about their beliefs... Happens all the time... You're just too busy listening to non-news commentaries from idiots like Limbaugh and Savage to hear it.
5. Virginia Democrats are actually liberal [more so than the Federal Level democrats]... You can, again, drop your "typical liberal" propaganda.
6. The primary reason Bollings beat Byrne, was that unlike Kilgore, Bollings was capable of running a "Clean" campaign... [unusualy, as it appears Bollings is now one of the handfull of Republicans who seem to have some sort of defined morality; unlike Kilgore, Bush, Allen, McDonnel, Cheyney, and the list can go on...]

Virginia is centrist largely because people are happy with the way the state is being run. They like their felons executed.

We don't execute our felons.... Strike one...


They like carrying guns.

Under specific circumstances and reasons... Strike Two...


They like the schools the way they are (more money for schools is always popular though).

Actually, no we don't... We want serious revamping of the system... Strike Three... YOU'RE OUT!


The state is fighting suburban sprawl.

NOVA is fighting sprawl... The rest of us have no had to worry about it....


And the state is experiencing economic growth and good employment.

Actually, we're reaching saturation... Several major industries have reached maximum employment capacity [including IT]... You're going to see a leveling out, unless something MAJOR is done...


Coming on the stage and announcing that you're going to dump the cart is a recipe for failure.

True...


I might note that in balance to Warner, the legislature became more Republican after he was elected. Once again, balance.

Actually, it was before he was elected. The power shift occured 2 years prior to Warner's election.


Currently, by an independent study, Virginia state government is rated the 2nd most efficient in the nation - we don't have the brutal combination of taxation and lousy state government that is in place in states like New Jersey.

I love my state's government...

We don't execute our felons.... Strike one...

We execute people who commit capital murder - that's more specific.


Under specific circumstances and reasons... Strike Two...
Virginia is one of the EASIEST states to get a carry permit.



Actually, no we don't... We want serious revamping of the system... Strike Three... YOU'RE OUT!
Outside of Northern Virginia maybe.

We execute people who commit capital murder - that's more specific.

Yes, but while all Capital Crimes are felonies not all felonies are Capital Crimes... And then, not all Capital Offenses are elligible for Capital Punishment... The system is far more complex than you have misrepresented to others...


Virginia is one of the EASIEST states to get a carry permit.

Easy? Somewhat... However, not just anyone can get one... I have one, yes... But you need to demonstrate to a judge mitigating circumstances to issue the permit.


Outside of Northern Virginia maybe.

Everywhere, including NOVA. The public school system in Virginia is still massively under-funded, more so in Democrat controled areas... But it's only a matter of fractional degrees of problematics. Republican areas are not quite as bad... But no where near "good".

Easy? Somewhat... However, not just anyone can get one... I have one, yes... But you need to demonstrate to a judge mitigating circumstances to issue the permit.

Nope. If you fill out the forms the permits are "shall issue". If you take the firearms safety course and have no criminal record (including no misdemeanors for domestic violence), the judge "shall issue".

No justification necessary. It's something that they were quite upset about in Northern Virginia, when the laws changed. Previously, no Fairfax County judge would issue one - no matter what you gave as a reason. Now you don't even appear before a judge - just fill out the paperwork, wait 30 days, and you pick up the permit.

Open carry in Virginia is also legal in most places, with the exception of the following:

Date updated: Oct 23, 2005 @ 10:09 am

* No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in §4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia, nothing herein shall prohibit any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit. NOTE: only concealed handguns are prohibited - openly carried handguns are allowed
* Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited. Violation is a trespass charge and not a firearms violation
* Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held unless you have "good and sufficient reason." There is no known definition of what a good and sufficient reason would be. Violation is a minor crime, punishible by a fine of up to $100.
* Courthouse. Violation is a high-level misdemeanor
* School property/school functions unless gun is unloaded, in an enclosed container (but NOT in the glove box or console) and in the vehicle. A car's trunk is considered an enclosed container. However, a concealed handgun permit holder can have a loaded, concealed handgun in the vehicle while in the school parking lot, traffic circle, etc. The concealed handgun and the permit holder must stay in the vehicle. Firearms are not banned from property open to the public where a school function is being held unless that property is being used exclusively for the school function. Violation of this statute is a felony
* Virginia Commonwealth University (8VAC90-10-50). Violation is a trespass charge
* Non-secure areas of airport terminals are off limits unless you are a passenger and you have your gun unloaded, in a locked container in your checked luggage, and declare the gun at the check-in counter. Violation is a high-level misdemeanor.

A handgun can be openly carried in a car (must be in full view) without a permit. However, you don't have to be on a peaceable journey to do so. Virginia does NOT have any of those silly laws that say you can only have a gun in the car if you are going to a shooting range or a gun store or any other place.


And the counties are powerless:

Localities can regulate discharge of a firearm or airgun and they can regulate hunting. That is about it. Here is the preemption law:

§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.

Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101 from acting within the scope of his duties.

The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.

B. Any local ordinance, resolution or motion adopted prior to the effective date of this act governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, other than those expressly authorized by statute, is invalid.

How to apply:
Take a class, NRA, military, security guard, police training, etc. Go to the Circuit court of your residence. Ask the Clerk of the Court for a "Concealed Weapon Permit Application." Fill out the application form and bring driver's license, DD-214 (if prior military). While the speed that each jurisdiction processes the permit application differs, by state law the permit must be issued or denied within 45 days of application.

If a permit is not issued in 45 days, the circuit court clerk must issue you a temporary 90-day permit until your regular permit is ready.

Nope. If you fill out the forms the permits are "shall issue". If you take the firearms safety course and have no criminal record (including no misdemeanors for domestic violence), the judge "shall issue".

No justification necessary. It's something that they were quite upset about in Northern Virginia, when the laws changed. Previously, no Fairfax County judge would issue one - no matter what you gave as a reason. Now you don't even appear before a judge - just fill out the paperwork, wait 30 days, and you pick up the permit.

Ahh.. you're talking about ownership permit, not carry... To get a permit to actuall carry the weapon (consealed) you need to go before a judge... To own it (merely beable to carry it) you're correct... Generally Permit to "Carry" is considered the Concealed Weapons permit... Since ownership allows you only to "carry" the weapon, if it's in plain view. I have the actual Conceales Carry Permit, so I can wear the gun holstered under my jacket.

Ahh.. you're talking about ownership permit, not carry... To get a permit to actuall carry the weapon (consealed) you need to go before a judge... To own it (merely beable to carry it) you're correct... Generally Permit to "Carry" is considered the Concealed Weapons permit... Since ownership allows you only to "carry" the weapon, if it's in plain view. I have the actual Conceales Carry Permit, so I can wear the gun holstered under my jacket.

No ownership permit is necessary.

This is the concealed carry permit.

The laws changed in Virginia in 1995 to "shall issue" for concealed carry permits.

Also, about a year ago, open carry WITH NO PERMIT became law.

NOTE: only concealed handguns are prohibited - openly carried handguns are allowed
That may be the case in law, but I'll bet there are any number of bar owners who will tell you to fuck off if you try to come in packing a weapon openly.

That may be the case in law, but I'll bet there are any number of bar owners who will tell you to fuck off if you try to come in packing a weapon openly.
They tried that in Fairfax County. The bar owner even called the police.

And the police told the bar owner to STFU and get used to it.

They tried that in Fairfax County. The bar owner even called the police.

And the police told the bar owner to STFU and get used to it.
Sorry, but I don't buy that for a second. The owner of an establishment that serves alcohol or food has the right to withhold service for any reason barring discrimination. If they don't want you in their place, you don't get to go in, and if they say that you can't come in while packing, you don't get to come in while packing.

Sorry, but I don't buy that for a second. The owner of an establishment that serves alcohol or food has the right to withhold service for any reason barring discrimination. If they don't want you in their place, you don't get to go in, and if they say that you can't come in while packing, you don't get to come in while packing.

It was in the Washington Post, and the establishment is called Champs.

Was a big deal summer before last.

Mr. Cole sponsored the legislation that created uniform open-carry laws throughout the state, which took effect July 1. The new law supercedes ordinances in cities such as Alexandria and Falls Church, where it had been illegal to carry openly within city limits.
But some police officers aren't aware of the law.
One Fairfax County officer recently confiscated guns worn by two persons at a Starbucks. When he realized his mistake, he called the men the next day and returned their guns and did not file charges, said Fairfax County Police Sgt. Richard Perez.
"Residents see people openly carrying handguns and call us, and we respond," Sgt. Perez said. "We use instances like that to continue to educate all our officers on what the laws are."
Mr. Van Cleave said there is nothing his group can do to ease the fears of a "small" group of people afraid of guns.

Here's your link, Nazz

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53084-2004Jul15.html

They tried that in Fairfax County. The bar owner even called the police.

And the police told the bar owner to STFU and get used to it.

I hope the bar-owner issued a complaint against the idiotic cop who did not enforce the law...

If the bar-owner told the person to leave... The person was guilty of tresspass...

Though, having witnessed the worthless state of affairs that is Fairfax, Virginia... I would not be surprised...

At least down here, in the real parts of the state... When we call the cops to have someone removed from our business for tresspass; they are actually compitent enought to enforce the law.

There are only a few question they will ask....

1. Did you ask the person to leave?
2. Did they refuse to leave?
3. [To the offender] Will you leave?

Yes to the first, initiates the second.... If no, they ask the third... If yes, they will escort the person off the property, and inform them if they are called again to the premises the person will be arrested without question... If no to the third, then the person will be arrested, and the owner will fill out charge of criminal tresspass (misdemeanor) against the person...

The cop in question, should be stripped of his badge... Since he is not compitent enough to actually enforce laws.

I hope the bar-owner issued a complaint against the idiotic cop who did not enforce the law...

If the bar-owner told the person to leave... The person was guilty of tresspass...

Though, having witnessed the worthless state of affairs that is Fairfax, Virginia... I would not be surprised...

At least down here, in the real parts of the state... When we call the cops to have someone removed from our business for tresspass; they are actually compitent enought to enforce the law.

There are only a few question they will ask....

1. Did you ask the person to leave?
2. Did they refuse to leave?
3. [To the offender] Will you leave?

Yes to the first, initiates the second.... If no, they ask the third... If yes, they will escort the person off the property, and inform them if they are called again to the premises the person will be arrested without question... If no to the third, then the person will be arrested, and the owner will fill out charge of criminal tresspass (misdemeanor) against the person...

The cop in question, should be stripped of his badge... Since he is not compitent enough to actually enforce laws.

Apparently, the police have been told by the local DA that open carry is a constitutional right in Virginia.

Open carry is here to stay, with the exception of places noted in the regulations. And so is concealed carry - with liberalized issue of concealed carry permits.

Well, with about 90% of the votes counted, Kaine's ahead by about 84,000 votes (http://sbe.virginiainteractive.org/index.htm) which comes to nearly 5 percentage points, so he cruised.

And with nearly half the votes counted, Corzine is up by nearly 10 points (http://www.nj.com/elections/electioncoverage/), 86,000 votes, though no one's called it yet, so who knows if that will close any.

Two points.

#1. NJ is a corrupt, inefficient crapbox, no matter who's running it.

#2. Kilgore shot himself in the foot with a late campaign ad referencing Hitler. It doesn't work in online arguments, and apparently it doesn't work in political campaigns either.Point in fact, the republican Lt. Governor got 70,000 more votes than Kilgore, which had Kilgore been able to hold on to those votes, he could have beaten out Kaine.

Two points.

#1. NJ is a corrupt, inefficient crapbox, no matter who's running it.


The highest taxed state in the nation, with the most corrupt and inefficent state government.

And to top it all off, we have the interesting combination of nanny-state laws and high crime.

73, the one that forces minors to notify parents before having an abortion done on them, will definately pass. I can't see it not passing.

Proposition 73: Minor's pregnancy

Yes 47.4
No 52.6

Here's your link, Nazz

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53084-2004Jul15.html
From what I read, it didn't sound like the owner of the restaurant tried to bar entry--the people working there called the cops and asked and the cops reminded them of the law. Not the same scenario I posited, which is that owners would say that firearms weren't welcome in their establishment and would have the right to bar people in that situation.

#2. Kilgore shot himself in the foot with a late campaign ad referencing Hitler. It doesn't work in online arguments, and apparently it doesn't work in political campaigns either.Point in fact, the republican Lt. Governor got 70,000 more votes than Kilgore, which had Kilgore been able to hold on to those votes, he could have beaten out Kaine.
Since Kaine beat Kilgore by more than 113,000 votes, hanging onto the Lt. Governor's votes wouldn't have done the trick, but I think you're right about the Hitler ad doing more harm than good. I'd also suggest that the last second entry by Bush didn't help matters either.

From what I read, it didn't sound like the owner of the restaurant tried to bar entry--the people working there called the cops and asked and the cops reminded them of the law. Not the same scenario I posited, which is that owners would say that firearms weren't welcome in their establishment and would have the right to bar people in that situation.

Champs has tried to bar entry - and called the cops.

The police have said to Champs that there's nothing they can do.

Apparently, under the Virginia Constitution, the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right, according to the police I've spoken to.

Since Kaine beat Kilgore by more than 113,000 votes, hanging onto the Lt. Governor's votes wouldn't have done the trick, but I think you're right about the Hitler ad doing more harm than good. I'd also suggest that the last second entry by Bush didn't help matters either.

I still think that Kaine being solidly centrist (forcing Kilgore to be more to the right) helped - along with the fact that he's promising only to be just like Warner, who is outrageously popular for being solidly centrist.

Apparently, the police have been told by the local DA that open carry is a constitutional right in Virginia.

Open carry is here to stay, with the exception of places noted in the regulations. And so is concealed carry - with liberalized issue of concealed carry permits.

DA? WTF state are you in? Not Virginia if you're speaking of a DA...

Open Carry, and Concealed carry may have rights... However, I still have a right to order someone [on my property] to get off... And if they do not, charge them with tresspass... You do not have ANY constitutional rights persuant to someone elses property... If they ask you to leave.... You're either going to leave, or you're guilty of tresspass...

"If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee... he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor."

Your "constitutional" rights exist on your land, and on public lands... Not private lands.... Places of business are "private" lands... At least the Commonwealth's Attorney and the Police here can enforce the law... If you come in packing, and I ask you to leave, and you do not... You better expect to be arrested...

Also, Intelligent designers on Dover PA school board were thrown out like moldy bread by the voters. Eight Dems replaced eight fundamentalists.

Tucson Arizona, saw Dems taking out two Republicans, reverting the city council to Democratic control.

In Washington State (where I live), a measure to repeal the state's fuel tax closely, one being watched by anti-tax zealots, was narrowly defeated.(yes, I voted not to repeal the tax)

In Maine, an anti-gay ballot initiative actually failed. Nice!

DA? WTF state are you in? Not Virginia if you're speaking of a DA...

Open Carry, and Concealed carry may have rights... However, I still have a right to order someone [on my property] to get off... And if they do not, charge them with tresspass... You do not have ANY constitutional rights persuant to someone elses property... If they ask you to leave.... You're either going to leave, or you're guilty of tresspass...

"If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee... he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor."

Your "constitutional" rights exist on your land, and on public lands... Not private lands.... Places of business are "private" lands... At least the Commonwealth's Attorney and the Police here can enforce the law... If you come in packing, and I ask you to leave, and you do not... You better expect to be arrested...


Champs, evidently, is powerless to stop open carry in its restaurants/bars.

Commonwealth's Attorney

Champs has tried to bar entry - and called the cops.

The police have said to Champs that there's nothing they can do.

Apparently, under the Virginia Constitution, the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right, according to the police I've spoken to.
All I'm saying is that the article you linked to does not say what you're saying here, and Tekania has made the same point. I reread the article just to make sure I didn't miss anything, and I didn't--in that article. The article says nothing about Champs trying to bar entry and not being allowed to do so--only that cops responded to a call from the restaurant, determined the law was not being violated, and went on their way. There's a major difference between the two scenarios we're talking about here.

All I'm saying is that the article you linked to does not say what you're saying here, and Tekania has made the same point. I reread the article just to make sure I didn't miss anything, and I didn't--in that article. The article says nothing about Champs trying to bar entry and not being allowed to do so--only that cops responded to a call from the restaurant, determined the law was not being violated, and went on their way. There's a major difference between the two scenarios we're talking about here.

I guess that explains why I wear my gun into Champs for lunch, and the staff doesn't do anything.

They complain, of course. But apparently, they've been unable to get the police to throw anyone out.

I guess that explains why I wear my gun into Champs for lunch, and the staff doesn't do anything.

They complain, of course. But apparently, they've been unable to get the police to throw anyone out.
God damn--are you dense? It's obvious that the management of Champs has decided they don't care, and if they don't care, then you get to wear your piece. But if the owner cares, if the owner posts a sign that says "No firearms allowed" alongside the "No shoes, No shirt, No service" sign, then they can bar you. They can bar you for being rude if they want to--it's a private establishment.

Now before you reply to this posting look very closely at the word "can" up there. I used it for a reason. I used it because it's not the same as "must." I used it because it's a synonym for "may." Get it?

Champs, evidently, is powerless to stop open carry in its restaurants/bars.

Because the police and Commonwealth's Attorney seem to be unwilling to enforce the law up there in FUBAR'ed NOVA...

If I tell you that you may not enter my place of business... Or, If I inform you that you must leave my place of business; if you remain, you are breaking the law... WERE the Commonwealth's Attorney and police actually enforcing the laws as they stand, they would have asked the people to leave, or arrested them for tresspass. And you can expect the local police here, to actually ARREST you... Not for carrying a weapon, but for tresspassing... If I say no weapons can be carried in my place of business, and I tell you to leave for carrying it... and you refuse to leave... You are, under the Laws of this Commonwealth, TRESSPASSING... You have a right to carry a weapon yes... On your property or on public property... You do not have a right to carry a weapon on someone elses property if they tell you that you can't...

It's retarded stuff like this, going on in NOVA, that really shows me how stupid the people near Washington D.C. are..

God damn--are you dense? It's obvious that the management of Champs has decided they don't care, and if they don't care, then you get to wear your piece. But if the owner cares, if the owner posts a sign that says "No firearms allowed" alongside the "No shoes, No shirt, No service" sign, then they can bar you. They can bar you for being rude if they want to--it's a private establishment.

Now before you reply to this posting look very closely at the word "can" up there. I used it for a reason. I used it because it's not the same as "must." I used it because it's a synonym for "may." Get it?

I've had the manager tell me himself that he can't throw us out for wearing the guns.

If we were drunk or belligerent...

but he complained to me that the police are unwilling to touch the issue with a ten foot pole. Regardless of the trespass laws.

Yes, I understand what you wrote. But the police around here aren't going to bother.

Yes, I understand what you wrote. But the police around here aren't going to bother.
They would if the manager made a trespassing complaint, as Tekania noted.

They would if the manager made a trespassing complaint, as Tekania noted.
He's evidently tried that, and the police who respond ask, "is this about the guns?" and he says, "Yes" and they say, "Forget it."

I've had the manager tell me himself that he can't throw us out for wearing the guns.

If we were drunk or belligerent...

but he complained to me that the police are unwilling to touch the issue with a ten foot pole. Regardless of the trespass laws.

Yes, I understand what you wrote. But the police around here aren't going to bother.

Then the entire police department should be replaced, along with the Commonwealth's Attorney.... if the law-enforcement arm is not going to do their job, then they need to be replaced by people who will...

Outside of NOVA [where the police are compitent enough to enforce the law], you would be arrested for tresspassing... Does not matter if you run around cursing, are carrying a weapon, or screaming religious propaganda... If I ask you to leave, you'll leave, or be arrested when the police arrive... My business, my rules of conduct.... [I even had one of my own ex-employees arrested for tresspass, after I fired him for cursing out several customers, he refused to leave the building.... The cops came and removed him from the building, by force, since he did not want to move voluntarily]... Notification of ban from private property, need only be verbal...

DK has done it again! It's amazing how this thiread is titled 2005 Elections: Harbringer to 06'/ 08' ?, and he's got you guys talking about guns. DK, I simultaniously despise, and praise you. Now, get your damn head in the game!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4417560.stm

Says pretty much everything of importance, but one thing I'd like to point out which bodes poorly for Mr. Bush is at the very bottom:

Eight school board members in Pennsylvania who supported an alternative to Darwin's theory of evolution lost their seats to evolution supporters.

Apparently evolutionists aren't giving up just because Bush thinks God's gonna back his non-theory ID agenda. :P

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4417560.stm

Says pretty much everything of importance, but one thing I'd like to point out which bodes poorly for Mr. Bush is at the very bottom:

Eight school board members in Pennsylvania who supported an alternative to Darwin's theory of evolution lost their seats to evolution supporters.

Apparently evolutionists aren't giving up just because Bush thinks God's gonna back his non-theory ID agenda. :P

Add to that, the entire Schwarzenegalian aganda going down in big huge red/orange flames, while trailing foul black smoke. It's all a wonderful thing to behold :D

Add to that, the entire Schwarzenegalian aganda going down in big huge red/orange flames, while trailing foul black smoke. It's all a wonderful thing to behold :D
That was indeed nice. Makes me wish I still lived in San Francisco so I could have helped kick his teeth in (electorally speaking, of course).:D