NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9967813/

TOPEKA, Kan. - Revisiting a topic that exposed Kansas to nationwide ridicule six years ago, the state Board of Education approved science standards for public schools Tuesday that cast doubt on the theory of evolution.

The board’s 6-4 vote, expected for months, was a victory for intelligent-design advocates who helped draft the standards. Intelligent design holds that some aspects of the universe are so complex that their development must have been directed by an superintelligent agent.

This pretty much sums up my views:
"This is a sad day. We're becoming a laughingstock of not only the nation, but of the world, and I hate that," said board member Janet Waugh, a Kansas City Democrat.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051108/ap_on_re_us/evolution_debate

If I were the intelligent designer, pigs would now fly..

Jeez, you would have thought they'd have learnt a thing or two from the debacle that is the Dover ID defense. I wonder if we'll see a similair case being filed in Kansas now.

:rolleyes: Great. Here, we go. Pile on Kansas a little more, why don't you? I disagree with the decision by the school board. Many Kansans disagree. And we're not the only state dealing with this issue right now.

Olara']:rolleyes: Great. Here, we go. Pile on Kansas a little more, why don't you?
With pleasure. Go grow some hills or something.

A lot of people in Kansas must be clappnig very hard to keep the I.D. faerie this powerful.

Intelligent design holds that some aspects of the universe are so complex that their development must have been directed by an superintelligent agent.

I've always wondered why a designer so "complex" as to be able to create such a "complex" universe does not him/her/itself need a designer even more complex, and he/she/it in turn, and so on...

I've always wondered why such a designer so "complex" as to be able to create such a "complex" universe does not him/her/itself need a designer even more complex, and he/she/it in turn, and so on...
You don't want to know the answer, believe me. It will incense in you the distinct need to punch one of them in the nose.

"In addition, the board rewrote the definition of science, so that it is no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena."

They proceeded to rewrite the definition of "hill" to mean "knoll."

I've always wondered why a designer so "complex" as to be able to create such a "complex" universe does not him/her/itself need a designer even more complex, and he/she/it in turn, and so on...
The universe came in a flat pack from the big yellow and blue place. That's my theory anyway.

I've always wondered why a designer so "complex" as to be able to create such a "complex" universe does not him/her/itself need a designer even more complex, and he/she/it in turn, and so on...
The answer is that the Universe's designer wasn't complex at all.
Read Genesis, the whole project was a matter of God saying, "Wouldn't this be fun?" Throwing around stars or otters or some other shit with no concern for the results, patting himself on the back, and then wandering off for a nap.

"In addition, the board rewrote the definition of science, so that it is no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena."

They proceeded to rewrite the definition of "hill" to mean "knoll."
With that rewriting they redefined "hill" as "bump on the ground."

The universe came in a flat pack from the big yellow and blue place. That's my theory anyway.

Ingvar Kamprad is god? I suspected it. Certainly anal and frugal enough.

The answer is that the Universe's designer wasn't complex at all.
Read Genesis, the whole project was a matter of God saying, "Wouldn't this be fun?" Throwing around stars or otters or some other shit with no concern for the results, patting himself on the back, and then wandering off for a nap.
This fully explains the confused look on otters faces.
http://otter.trebone.cz/images/heather_baby.jpg

If they try this bullshit in North Carolina, I'm going to take up arms against both the local school board and my State government! Jesus! Grrrrrr! :mad: :headbang:

The universe is far too complex to have been designed. The only viable way to make something this complicated is something like an evolutionary algorithm, or other methods with emergent properties.
If designers could make easily make complex things, chip designers wouldn't be looking to evolutionary algorithms to improve their chips.

Ingvar Kamprad is god? I suspected it. Certainly anal and frugal enough.
Yes, an unpatriotic tax-dodger.

Yes, an unpatriotic tax-dodger.

Hey! There's nothing wrong with being unpatriotic.

Topeka, Kansas; on the cutting edge of education since 1954.

Topeka, Kansas; on the cutting edge of education since 1954.
While they're certainly on something, I don't think that it is called "The cutting edge of education."

The answer is that the Universe's designer wasn't complex at all.
Read Genesis, the whole project was a matter of God saying, "Wouldn't this be fun?" Throwing around stars or otters or some other shit with no concern for the results, patting himself on the back, and then wandering off for a nap.

So he's gonna have one of those "Oh...shit" moments when he wakes up I take it.

Olara']:rolleyes: Great. Here, we go. Pile on Kansas a little more, why don't you? I disagree with the decision by the school board. Many Kansans disagree. And we're not the only state dealing with this issue right now.

Cry a little bit more. The loudest amongst us define us all. I've long since gotten used to the perception that we're all immoral godless elitist commies up here in Massachusetts, and I recommend you get used to the new image of Kansas.

we're all immoral godless elitist commies up here in Massachusetts

You say that like it's a bad thing.

The universe is far too complex to have been designed

Damor, you get today's Sowibian shiny medal for special NS General accomplishments.

I always found the "the world is too complex to have evolved at random/to NOT have been created" argumentation somewhat suspicious. My own irrelevant experience has so far nearly always shown that whenever something gets really complex, it's usually not gotten that way by planning but by coincidence..

I've long since gotten used to the perception that we're all immoral godless elitist commies up here in Massachusetts
You missed the Pan-New England meeting last week. We voted to live up to the souths standards for us.

"In addition, the board rewrote the definition of science, so that it is no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena."

Let me guess. Science is now called mythology? Facts will become fiction. And students will throw themselves off cliffs to prove "Intelligent Falling"

Actually, I would rather see all them ID'ers throw themselves off cliffs but seeing it as it is unlikely, I'll just have to imagine it.

Olara']:rolleyes: Great. Here, we go. Pile on Kansas a little more, why don't you? I disagree with the decision by the school board. Many Kansans disagree. And we're not the only state dealing with this issue right now.
As a Nebraskan that now lives in Missouri, I can't help but smile about Kansas living down to it's reputation.

Seriously, If Kansans would VOTE they wouldn't have this problem. The last time this happened, they turned out at the Next election to vote--once. Then what did they do? Forgot to show up at the next election. The ID people VOTE. The other people don't. Sorry Kansas, you get exactly the abuse you deserve.

*waits for Bobby Henderson (http://www.venganza.org) to sue the Kansas school board*

With pleasure. Go grow some hills or something.
Oh, clever, were it not for the fact that clearly you've never been to Kansas, having said that.

Next you're going to say that we don't have trees....? Wrong again.

Anyway, I can't wait for the first round of firings in the Kansas City area by teachers who will refuse to teach ID. This is going to be very interesting.

As a Nebraskan that now lives in Missouri, I can't help but smile about Kansas living down to it's reputation.

Seriously, If Kansans would VOTE they wouldn't have this problem. The last time this happened, they turned out at the Next election to vote--once. Then what did they do? Forgot to show up at the next election. The ID people VOTE. The other people don't. Sorry Kansas, you get exactly the abuse you deserve.
Actually, it's mostly the rural freaks who take the time to get out and vote, much to the chagrin of the civilized people in real cities. They make a fucking holiday out of it. You get a bunch of farm boys packed up in the back of a pickup truck, driving to the Big City with their Sunday best on, because it's votin' time.....whereas everybody else is going "Shit shit shit I've got work and a doctors appointment and I've got to pick up the kids and get them to soccer practice, I guess I could drop in the school and vote then, unless the lines are too long....maybe I could try to squeeze it into my lunch break, if I get enough time today...." because we have better things to do. I think the only ones who really care enough to vote about ID specifically NOT being taught are the ones with school-age kids, and sadly enough, those are also the busy ones.

*Shrug* I voted on it. I also voted on maintaining higher sales tax in my county to support the schools. Big whoop.

Can't wait til scientologists join ranks with the IDers and claim that the superintelligent designer was some alien race. :D

Can't wait til scientologists join ranks with the IDers and claim that the superintelligent designer was some alien race. :D

You should invent your own religious cult, and get rich.

You should invent your own religious cult, and get rich.The religion I'd invent is already around: Baha'i. (Someone beat me too it...)

The religion I'd invent is already around: Baha'i. (Someone beat me too it...)

No, no, you're not going to get rich with a religion like that...

The religion I'd invent is already around: Baha'i. (Someone beat me too it...)
So change the name and add two holidays, they'll never know the difference.

So how do these School Boards work in the States? Is there no government department to regulate standards?

So how do these School Boards work in the States? Is there no government department to regulate standards?

That's part of the problem in the states. We have school boards on top of school boards. Since socialist education was forced on us in the mid 1960's education has been a political tool used very effectivley by the left. That is now being threatened by returning education to a local level.
What is being seen in Kansas right now really has nothing to do with evolution or ID in truth. It is a political solution to an education system loaded with leftist idealogues and unqualified teachers who have managed to con people into believing that they should have the power to decide what is best for our children. Attacking evolution being taught as fact instead of theroy will drive a large percentage of these individuals to leave the system and once they do they will find they cannot get a job elsewhere, thanks to "no child left behind"
The most often not mentioned and most hated part of those laws require teachers to actually be qualified for the job. They cannot test out of subjects they teach, they have to demonstrate that they know what they are talking about.
Within the next 5 years 40% of the teachers in the US are being replaced with teachers in second careers who have been working in the fields that they will teach so this is just a fast track to making room.

Near as I can tell, "intelligent design" is basically this 'argument':

"Look. Look at this eye. Look at this flagellum attached to my sperm. Look at this EYE, man! I mean, wow! Dude! It's so fucking complicated! It's like a digital sportswatch! What are the probabilities of something so amazingly intricate to have just come about by pure random chance? The chances are so remote. Therefore, God did- er, I mean, Intelligence was behind all living things. Ame- I mean, I rest my case."

That's part of the problem in the states. We have school boards on top of school boards. Since socialist education was forced on us in the mid 1960's education has been a political tool used very effectivley by the left. That is now being threatened by returning education to a local level.
What is being seen in Kansas right now really has nothing to do with evolution or ID in truth. It is a political solution to an education system loaded with leftist idealogues and unqualified teachers who have managed to con people into believing that they should have the power to decide what is best for our children. Attacking evolution being taught as fact instead of theroy will drive a large percentage of these individuals to leave the system and once they do they will find they cannot get a job elsewhere, thanks to "no child left behind"
The most often not mentioned and most hated part of those laws require teachers to actually be qualified for the job. They cannot test out of subjects they teach, they have to demonstrate that they know what they are talking about.
Within the next 5 years 40% of the teachers in the US are being replaced with teachers in second careers who have been working in the fields that they will teach so this is just a fast track to making room.

What do you mean by "socialist"?

Teachers can, in fact, get jobs elsewhere. They can teach at a private school if they so choose. Most would prefer public school for many varied reasons, but to teach at a private school, you are not even required to have a degree of any kind

Come up to CT or MA and tell me that its easy to become a teacher and that the people passing these tests are incompetent. Sadly, due to the fact that teachers aren't paid well for a comprable education time, there is a severe teacher shortage, and those standards are about to be more lax.

Oh, and your stat is misleading. In the next 5 years, most of those teachers are retiring. We are moving into an extreme teaching shortage which shows little sign of lessening.

The issue in Kansas and other places is about the fact that ID has no place in a science classroom. at all. ID and NCLB are perfect examples of right wing manipulation of the school system. Both sides do it, not just the left. Maybe one day we'll stop having politicians and "experts" making education policy, maybe listen to teachers (big surprise, people actually teaching know what will work better than any survey or study could ever) and something will actually get done to fix education. And personally, I don't think any single group should have the power to dictate education. This is the point of PTA/PTO groups and such. Parents should have a say in the education process, but so should teachers. Students spend a much higher ammount of time with teachers than parents, and as a result, teachers know better than anyone what is and is not lacking. Does that give them authority to say what needs to be emphasized? Damn right it does. Does it give them the right to total power? hell no.

This is why no one on the east coast thinks there is anything between us and the west coast...nothing except highway and gas stations anyway...

Cry a little bit more. The loudest amongst us define us all. I've long since gotten used to the perception that we're all immoral godless elitist commies up here in Massachusetts, and I recommend you get used to the new image of Kansas.
Wonder why...
This is why no one on the east coast thinks there is anything between us and the west coast...nothing except highway and gas stations anyway...

Seriously, If Kansans would VOTE they wouldn't have this problem.
Rest assured, this decision will be reversed after the next round of elections in '06. Even apart from the science standards, this board has done plenty to piss people of all stripes off. It happened in '99, and it will happen again. I just hope the ID people will let it die this time.

If God exists then he's probably laughing his heads off. Silly Christians.. Can't you see!? He's fucking with you!

That's part of the problem in the states. We have school boards on top of school boards. Since socialist education was forced on us in the mid 1960's education has been a political tool used very effectivley by the left. That is now being threatened by returning education to a local level.
What is being seen in Kansas right now really has nothing to do with evolution or ID in truth. It is a political solution to an education system loaded with leftist idealogues and unqualified teachers who have managed to con people into believing that they should have the power to decide what is best for our children. Attacking evolution being taught as fact instead of theroy will drive a large percentage of these individuals to leave the system and once they do they will find they cannot get a job elsewhere, thanks to "no child left behind"
The most often not mentioned and most hated part of those laws require teachers to actually be qualified for the job. They cannot test out of subjects they teach, they have to demonstrate that they know what they are talking about.
Within the next 5 years 40% of the teachers in the US are being replaced with teachers in second careers who have been working in the fields that they will teach so this is just a fast track to making room.

I'm sorry but this is insane.

So how do these School Boards work in the States? Is there no government department to regulate standards?

Actually there is. THe US department of education, run by people to support the No Child Left Behind Act, an act induced by GWB with a bunch of crap that actually lowers standards.

I'm sorry but this is insane.

Watch and see.

Watch and see.
Do you/your kids go to school in OP?

With pleasure. Go grow some hills or something.

Don't tell me you're one of those leftist round-earthers. After all, a round earth is just a theory.

Watch and see.
I was not referring to your predictions. I was referring to your entire tirade.

So how do these School Boards work in the States? Is there no government department to regulate standards?
I'll try to give you a short answer to a complicated process.

Basically, Schools are under the control of local boards. The boards are elected locally and hire, fire, spend tax money, make policy, etc. BUT, the states also have a great deal of control in saying what will be taught. Different states handle this in different ways. Most have a Department of Education, under the governor and state legislature, that gives out state money and insures equal (well, there is no such thing as equal, maybe basic would be a better word) education for all the children. In some states such as Kansas, there is a State Board of Education. This board, or the Dept. of Ed, set basic pollicy for all of the schools in the state. They say what the minimum standards will be---How much math, science, language, etc., must be taught. Of course the local board can offer MORE but not Less than the state standards. Now the Feds. About 30 years ago the Feds jumped into the mix. For the most part they just help with money. But under GW they have started to put stipulations on the money. For instance, they now require testing to determine if the school is improving and if the students are learning anything.

As I said, it's complicated, but that's the basics.

Don't tell me you're one of those leftist round-earthers. After all, a round earth is just a theory.
True because the earth is actually a oval not round.

This is similar but not the same. But the earth being Oval is a fact not a theory. One of te differences between the earth's shape and evolution: one is 100% proven(earth's shape) another is partially proven(evolution).

But your making a joke I take it :D


This is why no one on the east coast thinks there is anything between us and the west coast...nothing except highway and gas stations anyway...

Don't worry some of us know you guys exist. I've seen Wizard of Oz :cool:

True because the earth is actually a oval not round.

This is similar but not the same. But the earth being Oval is a fact not a theory. One of te differences between the earth's shape and evolution: one is 100% proven(earth's shape) another is partially proven(evolution).

But your making a joke I take it :D

Yes, I am.

That being said, though, the fact that the earth is round (or to be even more precise, ovoid) is just a theory, albeit one with a hell of a lot of empirical data to support it. There is nothing logically necessary about a planet being round (or ovoid), or of earth being round (or ovoid). As such, there is no way of deductively concluding that the earth is in fact not flat.

What we have instead is a lot of inductive evidence that provides us with a very high likelihood that we are in fact living on a rounded planet. But very high likelihood and certainty are not the same thing: we may have a great deal of empirical evidence that the sun will rise tomorrow, because it has every day thus far in our lives and we see no evidence why this will change, but we would be unable to say that it is a fact that the sun will rise tomorrow. Same principle applies to a rounded earth. Ironically, same principle also applies to evolution. All three (the theory that the sun will rise tomorrow, the theory that the earth is rounded, and the theory of evolution) are merely posits that have a lot of inductive basis for us to think so, but are not deductively valid logical arguments.

If they try this bullshit in North Carolina, I'm going to take up arms against both the local school board and my State government! Jesus! Grrrrrr! :mad: :headbang:
Whoo somthing we agree on!

Urge to riot rising. That's it America needs to riot! That'll shut everyone up.

Actually there is. THe US department of education, run by people to support the No Child Left Behind Act, an act induced by GWB with a bunch of crap that actually lowers standards.

Of course, in this case, NCLB could be a help:

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/13011305.htm

IIRC, you have to use books approved by the NAS to get approval for federal funding under the act....


That's part of the problem in the states. We have school boards on top of school boards. Since socialist education was forced on us in the mid 1960's education has been a political tool used very effectivley by the left. That is now being threatened by returning education to a local level.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

What is being seen in Kansas right now really has nothing to do with evolution or ID in truth. It is a political solution to an education system loaded with leftist idealogues and unqualified teachers who have managed to con people into believing that they should have the power to decide what is best for our children. Attacking evolution being taught as fact instead of theroy will drive a large percentage of these individuals to leave the system and once they do they will find they cannot get a job elsewhere, thanks to "no child left behind"

My dear, no one has any problem with teaching evolution as theory. Why? Because that is what it is. The first chapter of any middle or high school textbook makes it clear that all of science is composed of hypotheses, testing, and theories.