NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051103/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting_24

AULNAY-SOUS-BOIS, France - A week of riots in poor neighborhoods outside Paris gained dangerous new momentum Thursday, with youths shooting at police and firefighters and attacking trains and symbols of the French state.

Facing mounting criticism, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin vowed to restore order as the violence that erupted Oct. 27 spread to at least 20 towns, highlighting the frustration simmering in housing projects that are home to many North African immigrants.

Police deployed for a feared eighth night of clashes, after bands of youths lobbing stones and petrol bombs ignored President Jacques Chirac's appeal for calm a day earlier.

Sounds like the French are unable to handle this - it's getting worse.

Of course, surrender is always a viable option...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051103/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting_24



Sounds like the French are unable to handle this - it's getting worse.

Of course, surrender is always a viable option...

Wow, another person with a french-surrendur joke.

Real fucking original, jackass.

Wow, another person with a french-surrendur joke.

Real fucking original, jackass.
Did you know that a google search reveals about 600 instances of the phrase "Real fucking original"? Come up with a more original way of expressing other's deficiencies, jackass.

Waaaaaaaait.... Black people rioting in a French named area.... CONSPIRACY!

Did you know that a google search reveals about 600 instances of the phrase "Real fucking original"? Come up with a more original way of expressing other's deficiencies, jackass.

If a search engine is only finding 600 instances of something, thats pretty fucking original.

Which side, the French police or the French citizenry?

In any case, if the French government calls in the CRS (State Security Police Force), the riots will probably get crushed very quickly. Besides, Britain suffered its own riots of late in the North, and the US didn't do so well during the Hurricane Katrina violence, so I wouldn't downplay the nature of the situation without knowing the broader causes for those riots in the first place.

Where is the LA police when you need them? I think a good beatdown and some California national gaurd troops are in order. BTW Chellis take a downer. Your way to uptight about anyone talking smack about the French.

If a search engine is only finding 600 instances of something, thats pretty fucking original.
"Pretty fucking original" comes up 260 times, just so you know. And if your criteria for originality walls out any french surrender jokes, then using "fucking" as an adjective/adverb when there is no fucking going on is obscenely unoriginal.
Fuck is one of the most overused words in the English language, and people need to stop abusing the fuck (<--Purposeful irony) out of Fuck.

Wow, another person with a french-surrendur joke.

Real fucking original, jackass.

He probably wasn't joking. But just to repair your reputation, you could pretend these Muslim teens are Ivory Coast residents, or something.

For the sake of France I do hope that Mr. Chirac remembers that martial law is a legitimate option in circumstances such as this. Mercy is best shown only after dominance has been established.

yay for uprisings!

sadly it probably won't do much good in the way of improving anyones situation.

I thin the govt should surrender and make promises to help those in the ghettos

Where is the LA police when you need them? I think a good beatdown and some California national gaurd troops are in order...
To be honest, I don't know why they didn't just end this already. They've been fooling around for a week now, I think at some point the state needs to step up and end this, if only for the people who have to live in those neighbourhoods.
Just yesterday they burned down a big car-lot, that's several dozen or more jobs lost for the time being. It's just not helping, calling the demonstrators "scum", but then not actually doing anything about it.

yay for uprisings!

sadly it probably won't do much good in the way of improving anyones situation.

I thin the govt should surrender and make promises to help those in the ghettos
I'm not really sure how you surrender to a largely leaderless group. At the moment the situation is a few people being tossers and breaking stuff becuase they can, and while that may be the origin of most revolts, you have to have someone with the sack and charisma to lay claim to the title of Leader before you can fully shift into an uprising and accept surrenders.

I'll take the position of leader then. who do I contact to demand surrender?

I'll take the position of leader then. who do I contact to demand surrender?
What's with the surrender talk again?
Show me the nation on the planet that didn't surrender itself, or had at least parts of its forces surrender. When you lost, you give up - that simple. No one is making fun for the Confederacy for surrendering once they lost.
No one is making fun of the US forces on the Phillipines for giving themselves up to the Japanese.

Shit happens, and you people need to get over it.

Stotzy or whatever his Spaz arsed name is should just run them over with Tanks and then export them to Idaho where their bodies can be used to feed the Bovine.

What's with the surrender talk again?
Show me the nation on the planet that didn't surrender itself, or had at least parts of its forces surrender. When you lost, you give up - that simple. No one is making fun for the Confederacy for surrendering once they lost.
No one is making fun of the US forces on the Phillipines for giving themselves up to the Japanese.

Shit happens, and you people need to get over it.
The main thing is just that the French surrendered twice in such a short span of time, and everyone is still bitter about Napoleon (WHO WASN'T EVEN A FUCKING FRENCHMAN, YOU ASSWIPES!! *ahem*) kicking their collective behinds for as long as he did.

What's with the surrender talk again?
Show me the nation on the planet that didn't surrender itself, or had at least parts of its forces surrender. When you lost, you give up - that simple. No one is making fun for the Confederacy for surrendering once they lost.
No one is making fun of the US forces on the Phillipines for giving themselves up to the Japanese.

Shit happens, and you people need to get over it.
Because they all fought.
France didnt. -_-

What's with the surrender talk again?
Show me the nation on the planet that didn't surrender itself, or had at least parts of its forces surrender. When you lost, you give up - that simple. No one is making fun for the Confederacy for surrendering once they lost.
No one is making fun of the US forces on the Phillipines for giving themselves up to the Japanese.

Shit happens, and you people need to get over it.

lol - I actually like france - I'm just messing around.

I'll take the position of leader then. who do I contact to demand surrender?
Wait, I'll take the position of the government. (puts on false moustache) Hang on, where's that accent... Hokay den, m'sieu.

We will not tolerate this ehm... ludicrous rioting any longer, enh? Go on back to your 'omes now hand watch some TV. You don't want to make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry, enh.

What do you mean zey are not going 'ome? Quoi? Well, they can watch their neighbours' TVs. Tabernaque!

Over to you, Sumamba.

The main thing is just that the French surrendered twice in such a short span of time...
1871 was an unfortunate incident that they had to surrender that quickly. If your emperor is captured, the country can do little (except that plenty of Frenchmen didn't think so and kept fighting, both the commune and various irregulars).
1940 was simply a leadership failure. The French soldier fought bravely, but there is little he can do if the command structure collapses.

But still, that's 69 years.

Compare to Germany 1918-1945...much shorter time span, but no one is going on about it, because in both cases the country was beaten. They held on for longer, but that didn't serve any purpose.

Compare to Germany 1918-1945...much shorter time span, but no one is going on about it, because in both cases the country was beaten. They held on for longer, but that didn't serve any purpose.
Yes, but everyone has to admit that the Germans are t3h pwn4g3 in modern warfare. They got the shit kicked out of them everytime, but they were back a couple decades later fresh and prepared to almost win and then get the shit kicked out of them again.

Anyway, I'm going to stick to the second reason I listed, that everybody rubs in the French surrenders becuase they remember that Napoleon Bonaparte led the French to run roughshod over the rest of the world. Further, there is the fact that the Brits resent the French from when the French took over, and British attitudes played a major role in shaping USian attitudes, and USian attitudes now shape international ones to about the same extent. Basically, everyone is tickled pink that the French are no longer the superpower they once were, and aren't going to let anyone forget it because the French spent so long pissing on everybody back when they were the big shits.
That really isn't the topic though, so you can have the last word if you want it, but I'm going to stop before I hijack the thread.

That really isn't the topic though, so you can have the last word if you want it, but I'm going to stop before I hijack the thread.
Agreed. Simply a few enlightening remarks for everyone again being confronted with the usual snide comments in the OP.

To come back to the topic, this is what the German paper "Spiegel" writes about this.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,383067,00.html
One of Sarkozy's most vocal critics has been Francois Hollande, the head of the opposition Socialists. In reference to Sarkozy's hard-line policy, Hollande says, "Well, zero tolerance for Sarkozy then. Zero tolerance for verbal provocation, the disappearance of neighborhood policing and the absence of any preventive policies. In fact, (Sarkozy) is obsessed only by his own candidacy. He is no longer interior minister, but minister for himself."

Azouz Begag, minister for equal opportunity, is likewise critical of Sarkozy, saying the interior minister has left him mostly in the dark about his plans to address the current rioting. Begag insists that in order to create order, one has to first combat discrimination.

"Sarkozy talks too much," says 13-year-old Mohamed. He is standing at an intersection in Clichy-sous-Bois and watching the Paris police pull over cars to the side of the road. Each car is approached by five policemen lighting up the vehicle with their heavy-duty flashlights. "They are only pulling over blacks and Arabs," says Mohamed. But the youth quickly gets bored and disappears into the night -- but not before imparting a small piece of advice. "If you want to see more," he says, "just go up the street a bit and take a right at the next light."
Doesn't really address the issue of getting this to stop now, does it.

My understanding is that all this started when three teens were fleeing from the Police and they ran though an electrical substation and two of the kids were killed. Now, why this would spark rioting was beyond me until I noticed the three major elements, police + black people + accidental death of black youths = Major rioting costing upwards of millions of dollars. That formula is as reliable as, umm, hell I don't know, but that's what it is. We have cases like this America quite often and they never fail to make the news, the difference is that we don't send police out into the neighborhoods where this happened just asking for them to be harrassed, we let things cool down, keep the police on stand by, if something happens send them in to bust skulls but don't send them as a precaution, that is egging on the already dangerously unstable mobs.

My understanding is that all this started when three teens were fleeing from the Police and they ran though an electrical substation and two of the kids were killed. Now, why this would spark rioting was beyond me until I noticed the three major elements, police + black people + accidental death of black youths = Major rioting costing upwards of millions of dollars. That formula is as reliable as, umm, hell I don't know, but that's what it is. We have cases like this America quite often and they never fail to make the news, the difference is that we don't send police out into the neighborhoods where this happened just asking for them to be harrassed, we let things cool down, keep the police on stand by, if something happens send them in to bust skulls but don't send them as a precaution, that is egging on the already dangerously unstable mobs.
Except I think that the Police have denied that there was actually a chase. So unless the French police are a lot pussier then the USian ones, then there probably wasn't even a chase. I don't think that that much really matters, riots are never really about the supposed "start." Riots happen because people want to tear shit up, for whatever reason, and if this hadn't started the Riots, then another incident would have.

BTW, if my previous post sounds racist I won't apologize because A.) I am not racist, I judge by the individual, not the group and B.) Racism appears to be at the heart of the issue here, I did not realize that France had any race problems but I have been told that the French are very arrogant and look down on everyone else. That is irrelevant though because I have been told that Russians, Germans, Americans, Brits, Italians, Iranians, Chinese, Japanese, South Africans and Inuits are the same so I am thinking that can just be described as being ethnocentric. (a slightly longer word for arrogance/nationalism)

Except I think that the Police have denied that there was actually a chase. So unless the French police are a lot pussier then the USian ones, then there probably wasn't even a chase. I don't think that that much really matters, riots are never really about the supposed "start." Riots happen because people want to tear shit up, for whatever reason, and if this hadn't started the Riots, then another incident would have.

I think the theme song for this incident could be Sublime - April 29, 1992. ;)

BTW, if my previous post sounds racist I won't apologize because A.) I am not racist, I judge by the individual, not the group and B.) Racism appears to be at the heart of the issue here, I did not realize that France had any race problems but I have been told that the French are very arrogant and look down on everyone else. That is irrelevant though because I have been told that Russians, Germans, Americans, Brits, Italians, Iranians, Chinese, Japanese, South Africans and Inuits are the same so I am thinking that can just be described as being ethnocentric. (a slightly longer word for arrogance/nationalism)
I don't think that the French problem is race, as it is Religion and Nationality. I believe someone mentioned that most of the rioters are first or second generation muslim immigrants. Then you combine that with some rather not happy French laws directed at Muslims, and you have people who are going to start getting a bit pissy. Which nicely connects with my last post, about how that would make them look for an excuse to start tearing shit up.

I don't think that the French problem is race, as it is Religion and Nationality. I believe someone mentioned that most of the rioters are first or second generation muslim immigrants. Then you combine that with some rather not happy French laws directed at Muslims, and you have people who are going to start getting a bit pissy. Which nicely connects with my last post, about how that would make them look for an excuse to start tearing shit up.

Possibly harsh feelings about being booted out of Algeria?

Possibly harsh feelings about being booted out of Algeria?
Any number of things, alot of emmigrants aren't exactly happy people. Generally, they are fleeing oppression or are living with exile that sends them out of the country. If the country you go to isn't exaclty inviting to them, then they aren't going to be happy. Especially if you were fleeing oppression at home, and then you start seeing shades of oppression at the place you ran too.

First Rule of Muslim Warfare; "We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux.

Somehow I feel that quote is entirely irrelevent to this topic, but hey, the opening post of this topic, which should set the tone for all those that follow, contained some France Bashing, so I had to continue on in the spirit of the topic.

BTW, if my previous post sounds racist I won't apologize because A.) I am not racist, I judge by the individual, not the group and B.) Racism appears to be at the heart of the issue here, I did not realize that France had any race problems but I have been told that the French are very arrogant and look down on everyone else. That is irrelevant though because I have been told that Russians, Germans, Americans, Brits, Italians, Iranians, Chinese, Japanese, South Africans and Inuits are the same so I am thinking that can just be described as being ethnocentric. (a slightly longer word for arrogance/nationalism)

You described North Africans and African-Americans collectively as "black people". Any fool knows that the two peoples are nothing alike. Nobody would mistake Oprah Winfrey or Michael Jordan for an Algerian.

Plus, he who goes out of his way to point out how "I am not a racist but..." is usually racist. It's just a little psychological indicator. Perhaps it means that you are subconsciously aware of your racism and seek to defuse its negative reception with public disclaimers.

You described North Africans and African-Americans collectively as "black people". Any fool knows that the two peoples are nothing alike. Nobody would mistake Oprah Winfrey or Michael Jordan for an Algerian.

Plus, he who goes out of his way to point out how "I am not a racist but..." is usually racist. It's just a little psychological indicator. Perhaps it means that you are subconsciously aware of your racism and seek to defuse its negative reception with public disclaimers.

Ok, fine, I hate every black person I have not met, does that work?

How about this. I am not racist but if someone makes a good racist joke I will laugh at it and share it with others.

I am not an anti-semite but if someone tells me a good holocaust joke I will laugh and it and share with others.

I don't hate Democrats but I don't agree with some of their policies.

I don't hate Republics but I don't agree with some of their polices.

I don't hate members of the KKK but..... wait, I guess I kind of do, nevermind that.

I don't hate Packer's fans but that doesn't mean I won't give them death threats when they play the Vikings.

I don't hate gays but that doesn't mean I won't laugh at and share a good gay-bashing joke.

I don't hate women but that doesn't mean I think they are equal in terms of driving.

I guess I really do hate blacks, whites, jews, muslims, christians, women, gays, packer fans, democrats, republicans then?

Oh yeah, and you forgot one thing, I also described Americans and Frenchmen together as white people. Any fool knows that they are nothing alike even if the LA Race Riots and these riots are very similar in many ways.

Yeah i say ship them back to Algieria.

Oh yeah, and you forgot one thing, I also described Americans and Frenchmen together as white people.

No you didn't. Reread your post.

Any fool knows that they are nothing alike even if the LA Race Riots and these riots are very similar in many ways.

Really? Which parts of these riots are similar in ways that don't characterize every other race riot?

Look, you obviously figured that your original post would come across as racist, otherwise you wouldn't have posted the subsequent disclaimer. I'm just offering an explanation for why you are behaving this way.

You described North Africans and African-Americans collectively as "black people". Any fool knows that the two peoples are nothing alike. Nobody would mistake Oprah Winfrey or Michael Jordan for an Algerian.

Plus, he who goes out of his way to point out how "I am not a racist but..." is usually racist. It's just a little psychological indicator. Perhaps it means that you are subconsciously aware of your racism and seek to defuse its negative reception with public disclaimers.

No, I think that a little disclaimer, especially on this touchy liberal forum is extremely necessary to protect you from a swarm of flames a mere eight seconds later. However, perhaps you are in fact talking culturally instead of actual race. As, as far as I’m aware, the Algerian race is in fact African, fair enough there are a lot of Persian and Arab immigrants, but just because people move from one continent to another does not mean that their genome alters.

In regards to my “I’m not a racist” disclaimer, I will not put one down, because, I am a racist. I personally believe that everyone in the world is a racist at some point in their lives, and to deny it is sheer hypocrisy. Race whether the liberal front wishes to admit it or not will continue to differentiate the human race from the corners of the globe for centuries to come. As long as differences exist, persecutions will follow, and if the persecutions persevere, then so with the differentiation between race.

No you didn't. Reread your post.



Really? Which parts of these riots are similar in ways that don't characterize every other race riot?

Look, you obviously figured that your original post would come across as racist, otherwise you wouldn't have posted the subsequent disclaimer. I'm just offering an explanation for why you are behaving this way.

Now I think you’re trying to offer a flame war instead, by trolling West Pacific on one post. Let it drop, jeeesh.

First, there seems to be a lot of ignorance on the matter here.

1. The riots are getting worse now, not better. If the crisis calms down, it will not be quickly resolved.

Riots spread to Dijon, Seine-Maritime region and the Bouches-du-Rhone (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051104/wl_afp/franceriots)

2. Government policies to deal with Algerian (and other North African) emigrants have been problematic (http://barthes.ens.fr/clio/revues/AHI/articles/english/geneng.html) since the 1920s. Algerian-born French author Albert Camus (http://www.geocities.com/clintonbennett/Lectures/Camus.html) was famous for dealing with Algeria in his writing. His writings reflected a general disregard for Islam, and the state of Algeria was pictured idealistically to be like France -- modern and secular. That colonial view fell apart with Algerian independence, along with various social programs (http://barthes.ens.fr/clio/revues/AHI/articles/english/lyons.html) for Algerians living in France.

3. Even with the removed social programmes, emigration only increased, especially since the terribly violent Algerian War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War_of_Independence), which resulted in somewhere greater than 350,000 dead (estimates vary to a high figure of 1.5 million), and more recently the Algerian Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_Civil_War), which cost the lives of 100,000-150,000 or more people.

3. While there are many cosmopolitan attitudes in France, there has been an undeniable insolvable issue with Islam, including prejudice (http://www.albalagh.net/current_affairs/0044.shtml), which recently led to banning hijab (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/EC19170B-C19E-4BFF-88E2-30B646271824.htm) (the headdress Muslim women wear). You can call it racial phobia if you want, but it is more the issues with Islam itself. The French purportedly saw the hijab as repressive of women's rights and a violation of church and state. Then again, the same law also barred Jewish yarmulke (the small skull cap) and even Christian crosses in schools. However, the latter two groups did not take to riot.

4. Poverty. Unlike the Christians and Jews, the Algerian-born and Algerian-descended population is extremely poor. They are also segregated by neighborhoods. This problem is a significant percentage of France's population and constitutes millions of people.

A century-long issue is not going to get better overnight.

Which is why i would boot them out and the Socialist that let them in in the first place.

Only Zouaves would be welcome.

Then you combine that with some rather not happy French laws directed at Muslims, and you have people who are going to start getting a bit pissy..
But remember the reaction when they kidnapped those French journalists and demanded the laws to be changed. The entire Muslim population of France immediately stood behind their government.
Many may not be happy with the laws, but few if any would use violence as a means for change.
Plus you'd have to add that Muslim leaders all over France have condemned the riots and urged parents to keep their kids at home.

...The French purportedly saw the hijab as repressive of women's rights and a violation of church and state. Then again, the same law also barred Jewish yarmulke (the small skull cap) and even Christian crosses in schools. However, the latter two groups did not take to riot.
See above.
But you're right, this is a complex issue that'll need grassroot work to be solved. But nonetheless, they can't keep letting it happen. First they need to end the violence, then they can concentrate on the causes.
And that's why I'm so amazed that they haven't sent in the National Guards etc to keep people inside. Believe me, most rioters wouldn't want to f*ck with them.

What's with the surrender talk again?
Show me the nation on the planet that didn't surrender itself, or had at least parts of its forces surrender. When you lost, you give up - that simple. No one is making fun for the Confederacy for surrendering once they lost.
No one is making fun of the US forces on the Phillipines for giving themselves up to the Japanese.

Shit happens, and you people need to get over it.

Yes, and we were abused during the War of 1812, but we didn't surrender our nation.

First, there seems to be a lot of ignorance on the matter here.

1. The riots are getting worse now, not better. If the crisis calms down, it will not be quickly resolved.


I think I made this point at the start...

It will be interesting to see how the French deal with it and how the press deals with France . Socialist...:rolleyes:

Yes, and we were abused during the War of 1812, but we didn't surrender our nation.

That's because you haven't exactly had an invasion to date. Declaring independence and beating off the current government is one thing. Being invaded by a foreign power once you're already established as a nation is another thing entirely.

After all, how could you surrender a nation when you didn't have one in the first place as in the case of pre-1812? Rebellions don't have a nation to lose. Their lives maybe, but not a nation, since that is what they usually don't have in the first place.

That's because you haven't exactly had an invasion to date. Declaring independence and beating off the current government is one thing. Being invaded by a foreign power once you're already established as a nation is another thing entirely.

After all, how could you surrender a nation when you didn't have one in the first place as in the case of pre-1812? Rebellions don't have a nation to lose. Their lives maybe, but not a nation, since that is what they usually don't have in the first place.

Ahem - we had a nation prior to 1812. Read your history books.

Wait, I'll take the position of the government. (puts on false moustache) Hang on, where's that accent... Hokay den, m'sieu.

We will not tolerate this ehm... ludicrous rioting any longer, enh? Go on back to your 'omes now hand watch some TV. You don't want to make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry, enh.

What do you mean zey are not going 'ome? Quoi? Well, they can watch their neighbours' TVs. Tabernaque!

Over to you, Sumamba.

Non! *hand to mouth popping action*
Vive La Revolucion

To arms mon bruhtheirs and seesteirs! Wait, first we eat chees' and dreenk zee wine.

Now go home, before we empty our chamberpots on your heads and make castanets out of your testicles already! You don't frighten us!

Is it just me or do the French continually riot?

Is it just me or do the French continually riot?

Its just you.

Is it just me or do the French continually riot?

No, they continually go on strike. Especially the garbage workers and the transit workers.

I think the govt should surrender and make promises to help those in the ghettos
Considering that these ghettos are government-funded housing districts, I don't see that as viable

That's because you haven't exactly had an invasion to date. Declaring independence and beating off the current government is one thing. Being invaded by a foreign power once you're already established as a nation is another thing entirely.

After all, how could you surrender a nation when you didn't have one in the first place as in the case of pre-1812? Rebellions don't have a nation to lose. Their lives maybe, but not a nation, since that is what they usually don't have in the first place.

Crack is bad for you .

No, they continually go on strike. Especially the garbage workers and the transit workers.

Yeah, they do strike a lot... pesky farmers :headbang:

But riot? No more than most Western countries.

Woooow... yet another Bushevik Masturbatory Celebration of French misfortune.

If you're going to crack Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkey jokes at the riots, don't get all pissy whenever someone celebrates 9-11 like it was the Super Bowl, okay?

Woooow... yet another Bushevik Masturbatory Celebration of French misfortune.

If you're going to crack Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkey jokes at the riots, don't get all pissy whenever someone celebrates 9-11 like it was the Super Bowl, okay?

It's hardly just the Busheviks. I was just at the mall food court and overheard some teenagers who were watching the overhead TV - CNN was on showing the riots in France.

These teenagers were hardly Busheviks - and yet they thought the idea of France being hoisted by their own petard was the laugh riot of the week.

I can see France doing the equivalent of a Patriot Act after these riots - rounding up youth and detaining them indefinitely.

Cheese eating surrender monkeys ...thats a good one . I want to see how they handle things ...maybe we can learn something..:D

Am I wrong, or could the French Interior Minister give the Bush Administration lessons in true right-wing thuggery?

Apparently, he thinks that the riots are all a well-organized plot, and he's going to find out who organized it.

Well, as was said in the movie Casablanca, "round up the usual suspects!"

...thats a good one . I want to see how they handle things ...maybe we can learn something..

Actually the French have been handling the islamism issue a lot better than other European countries. Certainly better than the UK.

Woooow... yet another Bushevik Masturbatory Celebration of French misfortune.

If you're going to crack Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkey jokes at the riots, don't get all pissy whenever someone celebrates 9-11 like it was the Super Bowl, okay?


Man-looks who is talking about "pissy".

How did President Bush get dragged into this? Besides you feeling the need to intoroduce him here?

I guess it is about that time for another French revolution.

off with his head !

Man-looks who is talking about "pissy".

How did President Bush get dragged into this? Besides you feeling the need to intoroduce him here?

Obviously, some people don't want any threads posted here that aren't "Bush Sucks". If you post something bad happenning somewhere else, or done by someone else, they either deny it's happenning, minimize it, or say "OMFG you Busheviks you kiss Bush's ass you neocon".

I can see the french over-reacting and doing something utterly OTT if this continues.

Though that would make me laugh.

I can see the french over-reacting and doing something utterly OTT if this continues.

Though that would make me laugh.

I'm expecting water cannon, police beatings, police shooting unarmed people (with those nifty plastic coated bullets that still kill you), people from the Interior Ministry torturing suspects to "find out who organized the riots", etc.

And all this is going to do is increase racial/religious/social tensions there.

Not many people are going to say" Oh, those poor people. How awful it is that they were forced to destroy thier own neighborhoods and burn hundreds of cars to shed light on their situation."

More likely it will be " Morons, but what can you expect from (insert racial/religious epitaph here).. "

I am expecting the CRS to be unleashed.

I am expecting the CRS to be unleashed.

Does the SDECE or its successor (I think they renamed it) have any ability to operate inside France?

Obviously, some people don't want any threads posted here that aren't "Bush Sucks". If you post something bad happenning somewhere else, or done by someone else, they either deny it's happenning, minimize it, or say "OMFG you Busheviks you kiss Bush's ass you neocon".

I have yet to hear anyone on the left here in NationStates of all places enjoy a good laugh at the expense of the French. If anything most of the biggest Francophobes are Bush lovers or at the very least on the right.

I have yet to hear anyone on the left here in NationStates of all places enjoy a good laugh at the expense of the French. If anything most of the biggest Francophobes are Bush lovers or at the very least on the right.

You don't have to be a Francophobe to laugh at the French.

All you have to be is from one of their former colonies.

Disabled Woman set on fire (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13457760,00.html)

That's just wrong on so many levels. Police should've shut this thing down days ago.

You don't have to be a Francophobe to laugh at the French.

All you have to be is from one of their former colonies.

Funny, I could swear America was a British colony and the French actually lended financial aid to the Continental Army.

Funny, I could swear America was a British colony and the French actually lended financial aid to the Continental Army.
I am alluding to places like Vietnam.

I was there last summer, and my friend and I were sitting with our driver on the beach at night drinking heavily.

We asked the driver what people thought of the French, and what they thought of the Americans.

He said they were generally pleased to see Americans and felt no hard feelings over the war - Americans are good for business. But they still think the French suck. And we encountered this attitude everywhere we went.

Yes, and we were abused during the War of 1812, but we didn't surrender our nation.

Doesn't mean some didn't want to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartford_convention

The americans basically surrendured in the war of 1812 anyways, they knew they couldn't win a war against a britain unopposed in europe, while the east coast was already being blockaded. A few good battles at the end were that which allowed america to get the conditions it got. It knew it would have lost in the long run, so it sued for peace. The only thing that makes it not a surrendur, is because britain knew it wasn't strong enough to occupy the country, which germany had the ability to do to france.

If the US and britain had been bordered...

Ahem - we had a nation prior to 1812. Read your history books.

I stand corrected. 1812 apparently was one of those minor wars of American conquest of Canada in which they were paid back for with an attempted invasion correct?

Has anybody else picked up on the fact that these riots were sparked in government-subsidised housing projects? Forgive my lack of compassion here, but it could just be that since the government is paying for the housing (in part), that the residents don't know any better but to continue the lives they currently lead?

These being immigrants. I cant help to think that France should ship them back to there home nations if they dont like it. I mean really if you hate being in a place so much to light it on fire. Then maybe its time to go? Make sense?

These being immigrants.
But most of them ain't. They're the kids, and sometimes even the grand-kids of immigrants, who just never got a chance.
There is so much wrong with that...but I still think before you can tackle that SEND IN THE GODDAMNED TROOPS ALREADY!

These being immigrants. I cant help to think that France should ship them back to there home nations if they dont like it. I mean really if you hate being in a place so much to light it on fire. Then maybe its time to go? Make sense?
Thats the way i feel.

So what if one of these Guys could be the next Zinadine Zidan or that other guy they are all preaching their Hatred of France so just give them a bit of a taste of jack Boots as you send them packing.

I stand corrected. 1812 apparently was one of those minor wars of American conquest of Canada in which they were paid back for with an attempted invasion correct?
No it was because Britain thought it could stop our ships at sea and kidnap our sailors to work aboard their ships and also because of restraint of free trade. And the US did not want to surrender and did very well against the world super power at the time , read the treaty of Ghent . It was signed BEFORE the Battle of New Orleans ..when the British were destroyed .

But most of them ain't. They're the kids, and sometimes even the grand-kids of immigrants, who just never got a chance.
There is so much wrong with that...but I still think before you can tackle that SEND IN THE GODDAMNED TROOPS ALREADY!

Watch out, you sound just like Donald Rumsfeld!

If the French would have steped in at the begining with riot cops and established a curfew like a normal police force would have then you would not have this spread of idiocy . Are they friggin nuts ? How long is this going on ? What about the people in those areas that are not rioters and just want to live their lives..dont they deserve protection ? Fucking socialism and liberalism at its root and further proof its a bankrupt policy . This leave them be shit is disgusting , they let a bunch of idiots take over the ares and put the residents that live there under seige..FOR WHAT ? What are they trying to prove ? Who's ass are they kissing ? Put this down under the heading " How never to handle riots and public disorder " .

Has anybody else picked up on the fact that these riots were sparked in government-subsidised housing projects? Forgive my lack of compassion here, but it could just be that since the government is paying for the housing (in part), that the residents don't know any better but to continue the lives they currently lead?

No. They live in those houses (though I am not sure, if its like in my country, they still have to pay a bit of the house) because they aren't given an opportunity to work in any place that allows them to gain more money, to get out of those places. They are shunned not because they are unwilling to work (hell, again in my country, immigrants work hard, not doubts about that), but because they are black, muslim and so on. Its a racism thingy.

If the French would have steped in at the begining with riot cops and established a curfew like a normal police force would have then you would not have this spread of idiocy . Are they friggin nuts ? How long is this going on ? What about the people in those areas that are not rioters and just want to live their lives..dont they deserve protection ? Fucking socialism and liberalism at its root and further proof its a bankrupt policy . This leave them be shit is disgusting , they let a bunch of idiots take over the ares and put the residents that live there under seige..FOR WHAT ? What are they trying to prove ? Who's ass are they kissing ? Put this down under the heading " How never to handle riots and public disorder " .


They do need to get in there and get down and dirty really quick. Stop dispersing them with tear gas and start rounding them up. Curfews and zero tolerance in the hot zones. There are ringleaders organizing the rioters-thats why they have to start arresting people, getting them into a secured, controlled location and process them there. The tear gas aint working too good.
How about the families that live there peacefully,like you said? They DO deserve protection. Are they hiding inside praying that their building isnt burned down? Hoping their place of employment or where they buy their food,etc... isnt destroyed?
Those rounded up- if they are there illegally, deport them immediately. The legal citizens participating in the rioting will now have there state supplied housing and income questioned. Protesting is one thing-rioting is another. You dont fight police and damage property, endangering life and livelihood and get to stay on the public dole. Fuck them. They need to be shackled and put to work, cleaning up the mess they took part in.
Now-its like a gang-bang free for all. People that are ordinarily civil may get sucked in to participate in a little mayhem just because it looks like some fun and there are no reprecussions.
They need a swift and hard lesson.

Now-its like a gang-bang free for all. People that are ordinarily civil may get sucked in to participate in a little mayhem just because it looks like some fun and there are no reprecussions.
They need a swift and hard lesson.

While I agree with you, I'm waiting for some of the Bush-whackers on this forum to say the same thing - I'm waiting for them to sound like Donald Rumsfeld.

Fucking socialism and liberalism at its root and further proof its a bankrupt policy.

If you think Sarkozy is a socialist, your ignorance is really showing. He's one of the most right-wing politicians we've ever had.

If you think Sarkozy is a socialist, your ignorance is really showing. He's one of the most right-wing politicians we've ever had.
Arrgh but surely it was bloody socialist that let them in in the first place!

While I agree with you, I'm waiting for some of the Bush-whackers on this forum to say the same thing - I'm waiting for them to sound like Donald Rumsfeld.

It doesnt look as if its going to die out on its own. Its really gaining momentum.
I shudder to think of being trapped in a neighborhood like that with a family. I would likely go out and quell rioters with an axe handle. My block would be clear. If you can have an axe handle in France. Mine wouldnt be registered.
Rioting so often goes from a protest with a purpose right to all out hooliganism and wilding. The perpetrators need to have the wind knocked out of their sails immediately.

If the French would have steped in at the begining with riot cops and established a curfew like a normal police force would have then you would not have this spread of idiocy . Are they friggin nuts ? How long is this going on ? What about the people in those areas that are not rioters and just want to live their lives..dont they deserve protection ? Fucking socialism and liberalism at its root and further proof its a bankrupt policy . This leave them be shit is disgusting , they let a bunch of idiots take over the ares and put the residents that live there under seige..FOR WHAT ? What are they trying to prove ? Who's ass are they kissing ? Put this down under the heading " How never to handle riots and public disorder " .

socialism? liberalism? I would like to inform you that the French government does not have those two qualities, minister Sarkozy said they needed to clean out the suburbs with a pressure-cleaner (before the riots started) with such a government attitude, does it surprise you that these kids are angry?

socialism? liberalism? I would like to inform you that the French government does not have those two qualities, minister Sarkozy said they needed to clean out the suburbs with a pressure-cleaner (before the riots started) with such a government attitude, does it surprise you that these kids are angry?

The truth does hurt and make people angry. And an intelligent response from some one on the dole is to go out and fight police and destroy property.

The truth does hurt and make people angry. And an intelligent response from some one on the dole is to go out and fight police and destroy property.

These people have been repressed all their lives, they are confronted with racism every day, they are treated like scum, it creates a negative spiral, call someone a rat for long enough and he will start growing a tail, they are pissed off and are showing it, how would you be?

Also, these riots show that the government does not have the ability to protect it's citizens and thus has outlived it's use, there is now a full justification to overthrow it!

These people have been repressed all their lives, they are confronted with racism every day, they are treated like scum, it creates a negative spiral, call someone a rat for long enough and he will start growing a tail, they are pissed off and are showing it, how would you be?

Also, these riots show that the government does not have the ability to protect it's citizens and thus has outlived it's use, there is now a full justification to overthrow it!


They are scum. They arent peacefully protesting to make a point and get attention. They are wilding for the sake of excitement.
I saw this first hand in LA after the Rodney King bullshit. Half the scumbags destroying property and looting were only doing so because they felt they could get away with it.
They do need to be pressure washed away. I guess the free housing and handouts make people bored. So they act like animals. Mayeb the government should be responsible to entertain them too.

They are scum. They arent peacefully protesting to make a point and get attention. They are wilding for the sake of excitement.
I saw this first hand in LA after the Rodney King bullshit. Half the scumbags destroying property and looting were only doing so because they felt they could get away with it.
They do need to be pressure washed away. I guess the free housing and handouts make people bored. So they act like animals. Mayeb the government should be responsible to entertain them too.

Same with the looters in New Orleans, the rioters in Ohio recently.

They are scum. They arent peacefully protesting to make a point and get attention. They are wilding for the sake of excitement.
I saw this first hand in LA after the Rodney King bullshit. Half the scumbags destroying property and looting were only doing so because they felt they could get away with it.
They do need to be pressure washed away. I guess the free housing and handouts make people bored. So they act like animals. Mayeb the government should be responsible to entertain them too.

They are not scum (ok, some may be), they are dissafected people with no prospects of life. You ever suffered racism? Did you ever had problems finding a job because of who you were? You can't exactly run away from yourself. They are rioting as protest, hell, they are french, they are feisty, perhaps it is american protests that are to light, and you don't know what protest is.

What needs to be done, is to have Chirac (the politicians) come down from is palace, and actually go down and talk to that people. Tell them that they are human beings too, and listen them a bit.

They are not scum (ok, some may be), they are dissafected people with no prospects of life. You ever suffered racism? Did you ever had problems finding a job because of who you were? You can't exactly run away from yourself. They are rioting as protest, hell, they are french, they are feisty, perhaps it is american protests that are to light, and you don't know what protest is.

What needs to be done, is to have Chirac (the politicians) come down from is palace, and actually go down and talk to that people. Tell them that they are human beings too, and listen them a bit.

I'm not sure that talking will do much at this point. It's easier and more fun to loot and burn.

I'm not sure that talking will do much at this point. It's easier and more fun to loot and burn.

That is the difference between European and american mentality: you always think that everyone that is poor is also scum.

That is the difference between European and american mentality: you always think that everyone that is poor is also scum.

Hardly. Did I say anywhere in this thread that they are scum?

pansis...just call in the fuking army then see if those punk bitchs want to riot......serves those french right....the french PM accused the americans of not acting swiftly enough during the 1992 LA riots,bush is probably laughing his ass of right now like i am!

What needs to be done, is to have Chirac (the politicians) come down from is palace, and actually go down and talk to that people. Tell them that they are human beings too, and listen them a bit.



he is right...sacrafise that chirac prick to the dogs :)

That is the difference between European and american mentality: you always think that everyone that is poor is also scum.

I would add that America, by tradition, has a better system for taking in immigrants and making them successful. Sinuhue posted a link the other day that showed that even illegal immigrants succeed here. And with a minimum of government assistance.

When you consider that everyone in the US except for the native tribes are immigrants or descendants of immigrants, perhaps you should try our model.

Putting people in subsidized housing blocks and putting them on the dole is a one way ticket to institutionalized indolence - the Great Society programs of the 1960s in America proved it - and the way that France handled its immigrants is yet another proof that it doesn't work.

I live in a town with thousands of successful illegal immigrants. No welfare being spent in this town on immigrants - and they all work, and they all make money, and they spend money - there's even a massive set of stores built here by private investors just to cater to their shopping needs (I like the grocery store because they have fresh spices I can't get anywhere else).

Instead of waiting for the government to always fix things, before or after, why not give the people a way to help themselves - without government interference?

[QUO[FONT="Century Gothic"]TE=Gauthier]I have yet to hear anyone on the left here in NationStates of all places enjoy a good laugh at the expense of the French. If anything most of the biggest Francophobes are Bush lovers or at the very least on the right.[/QUOTE]
I am french and Right winged, i believe our governement should send in tanks like the russians used to, to quell the riots nothing calms down an arab punk like 12tons of steel on their face.
I don't live in france any more, but i was told by my brother that goths have been fighting the chavs in the nicer parts of paris, and skinheads and right wing neo-fascist militia have been fighting them in the poorere white community.
If the army doesn't interven quickly goth and skin heads will quell the rebellion, and it won't be with rubber bullets but chains and hunting rifles.

They are not scum (ok, some may be), they are dissafected people with no prospects of life. You ever suffered racism? Did you ever had problems finding a job because of who you were? You can't exactly run away from yourself. They are rioting as protest, hell, they are french, they are feisty, perhaps it is american protests that are to light, and you don't know what protest is.

What needs to be done, is to have Chirac (the politicians) come down from is palace, and actually go down and talk to that people. Tell them that they are human beings too, and listen them a bit.
yep the cure for it is to burn down your neighborhood and riot like morons. that will teach 'em .

yep the cure for it is to burn down your neighborhood and riot like morons. that will teach 'em .


LMFAO!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051103/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting_24



Sounds like the French are unable to handle this - it's getting worse.

Of course, surrender is always a viable option...

Looks like it. All because of 2 young muslims fleeing the goddamn cops.

Comeon Chirac, call in the troops. Its needed.

Which side, the French police or the French citizenry?

In any case, if the French government calls in the CRS (State Security Police Force), the riots will probably get crushed very quickly. Besides, Britain suffered its own riots of late in the North, and the US didn't do so well during the Hurricane Katrina violence, so I wouldn't downplay the nature of the situation without knowing the broader causes for those riots in the first place.

You have a problem about the United States. Its called hierarchy of control. The feds can't do nothing without the Governor's permission in a situation such as this.

Also, we had a lot of street flooding that prevented the feds to get there. Once the feds and the troops got in there, the situation quieted down.

Yes, and we were abused during the War of 1812, but we didn't surrender our nation.

Come to think of it, the Brits didn't either but the French did Surrender to the Brits though :D

Looks like it. All because of 2 young muslims fleeing the goddamn cops.

Comeon Chirac, call in the troops. Its needed.

No, all because of a social program that concentrates immigrants in housing blocks and puts them all on the dole. If you want to intentionally keep people in ghettos, at least admit that's what you are doing, instead of calling it social welfare.

That policy itself is institutionalized racism.

That's because you haven't exactly had an invasion to date. Declaring independence and beating off the current government is one thing. Being invaded by a foreign power once you're already established as a nation is another thing entirely.

Invaded in 1812 (Brits)

1862 (Confederate States)

Invaded in 1941 & 1942 (Japan by invading Guam and Alaska)

Yep we have been invaded.

After all, how could you surrender a nation when you didn't have one in the first place as in the case of pre-1812? Rebellions don't have a nation to lose. Their lives maybe, but not a nation, since that is what they usually don't have in the first place.

Someone really needs to go back and re-read what Sierra posted: "Yes, and we were abused during the War of 1812, but we didn't surrender our nation"

This is what Sierra said so where did talk of rebellion come from? That took place in 1775-1783.

No, they continually go on strike. Especially the garbage workers and the transit workers.

Sounds like Philadelphia :D

Disabled Woman set on fire (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13457760,00.html)

That's just wrong on so many levels. Police should've shut this thing down days ago.

The French don't know how to handle a riot. They haven't even called in the troops yet or invoked martial law.

What are they trying to show but not doing that?

Has anybody else picked up on the fact that these riots were sparked in government-subsidised housing projects? Forgive my lack of compassion here, but it could just be that since the government is paying for the housing (in part), that the residents don't know any better but to continue the lives they currently lead?

You aren't the only one to notice this Super-power. I have noticed it too.

Maybe the unhappy people should leave France and come to America. In America, rioting and unhappiness the the patriotic way to show you're happy.
They must not understand that in France...


I'M KIDDING!:p

No it was because Britain thought it could stop our ships at sea and kidnap our sailors to work aboard their ships and also because of restraint of free trade. And the US did not want to surrender and did very well against the world super power at the time , read the treaty of Ghent . It was signed BEFORE the Battle of New Orleans ..when the British were destroyed .

You are indeed 100% correct. However, people around here don't care for historical facts anymore :(

The probable reason the riot's haven't been put down is that the same people who are mad at the U.S. because 2 civilians died in a massive bomb raid are running the French operation.

Througout history the French have rioted regularly for reasons ranging from oppressive regimes, to food shortages, to shockingly new pieces of classical music. These riots could actually be proof of improving integration of 2nd generation muslim population.

Seriously tho, this has a less to do with France's model of government and more to do with Chiracs corrupt retrograde administration. The whole head scarfs debacle is just one example. He is neither a socialist nor a liberal. He's an idiot.

While I think the Iraq war was all sorts of a bad idea, Chirac's opposition was almost certainly based on realpolitking, electoral gain, and France being owed quite alot of money by Saddam.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/

When you read crap like this, you know its time to bring out France's equivilant of the National Guard. End the violence and put the offenders in jail!

Wow, another person with a french-surrendur joke.

Real fucking original, jackass.

The reason it's such a cliche is because it's true. When was the last time France won a war without outside help? I think you have to go all the back to the Franco-Austrian War of 1859, when they barely managed to defeat the crumbling Austrian Empire. Even then they had help from Sardinia.

The reason it's such a cliche is because it's true. When was the last time France won a war without outside help? I think you have to go all the back to the Franco-Austrian War of 1859, when they barely managed to defeat the crumbling Austrian Empire. Even then they had help from Sardinia.
French Military History in a Nutshell

Gallic Wars: Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian.

Hundred Years War: Mostly lost, saved at last by a female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare - "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchmen."

Italian Wars: Lost. France becomes the first and only country ever to lose two wars when fighting Italians.

Wars of Religion: France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots.

Thirty Years' War: France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.

War of Devolution: Tied; Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.

The Dutch War: Tied.

War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War: Lost, but claimed as a tie. Deluded Frogophiles the world over label the period as the height of French Military Power.

War of the Spanish Succession: Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved ever since.

American Revolution: In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare: "France only wins when America does most of the fighting".

French Revolution: Won, primarily due to the fact that the opponent was also French.

The Napoleonic Wars: Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.

The Franco-Prussian War: Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

WWI: Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States.

WWII: Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.

War in Indochina: Lost. French forces plead sickness, take to bed with Dien Bien Flu.

Algerian Rebellion: Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a Western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare -"We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese, and Eskimos.

War on Terrorism: France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe.

No why can't us Americans have done that last August or whenever the 'Pubbie Convention was...

It is getting worse.
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/051105/1/3w7xz.html

Nearly 900 vehicles were torched and 250-plus people arrested as French police desperately battled the country's worst rioting for decades, which has now raged for nine consecutive nights.

Again, the bulk of the violence on Saturday hit deprived suburbs with large immigrant populations on the fringes of Paris, although rioting again spread to several cities elsewhere in France, following a pattern seen in recent nights.

With authorities seemingly powerless to stem the tide of violence despite the mobilisation of hundreds of riot police, gangs of youths set cars on fire around Paris, especially in the northern suburbs where the trouble began.

A hundred people were evacuated overnight from two apartment blocks in one northern suburb after an arson attack set dozens of cars alight in an underground garage.

Two textile warehouses and a car showroom were also torched to the northeast of the city.

A total of 253 people were detained for questioning, some of them minors caught with fire-bombs, police said.

Paris prosecutor general Yves Bot said that 897 vehicles had been burnt overnight Friday, including 656 in the Paris region.

Questioned on Europe 1 radio, Bot spoke of "organised violence" but did not say by whom.

"If I could give an exact answer, those people would already be under arrest," he said. "But we can see organised actions, a strategy."

Bot said that weblogs were asking other French cities to join the rioting in the Paris region.

I think this is more evidence for my hypothesis that leaders of nations usually use their heads only as hat racks.

Algerian Rebellion: Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a Western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare -"We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese, and Eskimos.


Ok you got me curious. What are the first rules of the other nations you mentioned?

I think we need an allied expeditionary force assembled to help the French fight off this problem. Anyone care to join in helping our allies. I mean they did help us in the American revolution, WWI, WWII, Gulf War I. This is the least we can do.

Ok you got me curious. What are the first rules of the other nations you mentioned?

Ummm, There is only one.

Ok you got me curious. What are the first rules of the other nations you mentioned?

"We can beat the french" LOL

Ummm, There is only one.

Ok now I get it:headbang:

Drank a bit last nite after months.:p

Ok you got me curious. What are the first rules of the other nations you mentioned?
"We can always beat the French"

Algerian Rebellion: Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a Western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare -"We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese, and Eskimos.


Whats your point? The Italians were wooped soundly by the Ethiopians before this marking the first time any Western country had been beaten by an African state.

The British got slaughtered as Isalandwala (sp) by the Zulus, then later got taught nasty lessons by the Boers, then get shunted at home by an irregular force in Ireland.

The Russians got their asses handed to them by the Japanese- marking the first time a Western power had been defeated squarly by an Asian force.

The Americans got their asses handed to them by a guerrilla army mixed with North Vietmanese troops.

Everyone loses sometimes Sierra.

I'd rather a French soldier at my back, then a grunt..... at least I know the French soldier can read the tag 'Safety OFF' :p

The Americans got their asses handed to them by a guerrilla army mixed with North Vietmanese troops.

You will note that no battle in Vietnam was ever lost by US forces. Quite unlike the French.

We came home because some wags here didn't want to go fight there.

You will note that no battle in Vietnam was ever lost by US forces. Quite unlike the French.

We came home because some wags here didn't want to go fight there.

So what, you were there for 10,000 days on vacation?

Isn't that the entire point of guerrilla war? The British never lost a single battle against the IRA.... still lost the war though.

So what, you were there for 10,000 days on vacation?

Isn't that the entire point of guerrilla war? The British never lost a single battle against the IRA.... still lost the war though.

Who said we lost Vietnam? The last I checked, Vietnam was TWO NATIONS when we pulled out fully.

As for losing the war with the IRA, are you 100% sure of that?

So what, you were there for 10,000 days on vacation?

Isn't that the entire point of guerrilla war? The British never lost a single battle against the IRA.... still lost the war though.

If there had been no protests back here, and if LeMay had been given permission to do what he wanted to do, we would have won the Vietnam War.

Sometimes, though, winning is not everything, as long as you don't surrender your own nation.

Who said we lost Vietnam? The last I checked, Vietnam was TWO NATIONS when we pulled out fully.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!... Dude.... give... it... up!

As for losing the war with the IRA, are you 100% sure of that?

Eh.... yeah. 1920.

If there had been no protests back here, and if LeMay had been given permission to do what he wanted to do, we would have won the Vietnam War.

Sometimes, though, winning is not everything, as long as you don't surrender your own nation.

Hmmm. Thats a very interesting and intriging view of it. Debatable- but here is probably not really the place ;)

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!... Dude.... give... it... up!

Nope. Sorry I won't. Amazing what happens when you actually learn to study things in more detail.

Eh.... yeah. 1920.

If that was the case then why where British Troops still in Northern Ireland?

Nope. Sorry I won't.

Thats quite alright. Apology accepted. :D


If that was the case then why where British Troops still in Northern Ireland?

I said the IRA. Not the Provisional IRA. THe IRA has existed since... 1916ish. Culminating in the War of Independence against Britian. A guerrilla war that in every 'large' scale battle with British troops, Britian won..... but lost the war.

Where is the LA police when you need them? I think a good beatdown and some California national gaurd troops are in order. BTW Chellis take a downer. Your way to uptight about anyone talking smack about the French.

yes, absolutely

this sucks.

rather than move on (cripes, the kids thought the police were chasing them? whose fault is that if they're morons?) and see it for what it was -- an infortunate incident -- these poor people are putting their energy (of which they must have plenty since the unemployment rates in those areas are so high) into negative actions and blaming others for their problems... rather than putting their energy into bettering their lot the honest way -- by going out, finding a job, working hard at it and moving up.

violence can't be allowed to act as an elixir; the lesson must be taught that the way to advance in life is through honesty, hard work, creativity, etc.

Thats quite alright. Apology accepted. :D



I said the IRA. Not the Provisional IRA. THe IRA has existed since... 1916ish. Culminating in the War of Independence against Britian. A guerrilla war that in every 'large' scale battle with British troops, Britian won..... but lost the war.

Ahh I see we are talking about the Republic of Ireland with the capitol at Dublin. Seems that the Brits have a hard time with independence movements :D

The reason it's such a cliche is because it's true. When was the last time France won a war without outside help? I think you have to go all the back to the Franco-Austrian War of 1859, when they barely managed to defeat the crumbling Austrian Empire. Even then they had help from Sardinia.

When was the last time the US won a war without outside help? 1898, defeating the weakest european colonial power... Then the mexican-american war of 1848.

So the US can beat people who are of spanish decent. Out of the 20 or so wars we've been in, its not a great record either. Same can be said for the british, germans, italians, russians, etc... If you want to go by records, hell, vietnam might be one of the best militaries in the world.

Hmmm. Thats a very interesting and intriging view of it. Debatable- but here is probably not really the place ;)

It is funny to win every tactical battle, and have your country lose the political will to follow through. That much is not debatable.

It is getting worse.
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/051105/1/3w7xz.html

Nearly 900 vehicles were torched and 250-plus people arrested as French police desperately battled the country's worst rioting for decades, which has now raged for nine consecutive nights.

Again, the bulk of the violence on Saturday hit deprived suburbs with large immigrant populations on the fringes of Paris, although rioting again spread to several cities elsewhere in France, following a pattern seen in recent nights.

With authorities seemingly powerless to stem the tide of violence despite the mobilisation of hundreds of riot police, gangs of youths set cars on fire around Paris, especially in the northern suburbs where the trouble began.

A hundred people were evacuated overnight from two apartment blocks in one northern suburb after an arson attack set dozens of cars alight in an underground garage.

Two textile warehouses and a car showroom were also torched to the northeast of the city.

A total of 253 people were detained for questioning, some of them minors caught with fire-bombs, police said.

Paris prosecutor general Yves Bot said that 897 vehicles had been burnt overnight Friday, including 656 in the Paris region.

Questioned on Europe 1 radio, Bot spoke of "organised violence" but did not say by whom.

"If I could give an exact answer, those people would already be under arrest," he said. "But we can see organised actions, a strategy."

Bot said that weblogs were asking other French cities to join the rioting in the Paris region.


Ahhhhhh let them eat cake .

Ahhhhhh let them eat cake .

Someone has been listening to too much Allan Sherman :D

*breaks into the rendition of "you went the wrong way ole king louis"*

Does this mean we get to see Beer and Guns go up on the chopping block soon?

Off with his head !:D

All joking aside..how the hell do you let a riot last for over a week ? :D

This is a record is it not ? Ten days running ? WTF are they thinking ?

Off with his head !:D

All joking aside..how the hell do you let a riot last for over a week ? :D

This is a record is it not ? Ten days running ? WTF are they thinking ?

I don't know.

I would've declared martial law and called in the troops along time ago.

I don't know.

I would've declared martial law and called in the troops along time ago.

Whats wrong with a curfew and riot cops ? WTF dont they have any ?:D
Or did they surrender ?

Whats wrong with a curfew and riot cops ? WTF dont they have any ?:D
Or did they surrender ?

I think they got overwhelmed. Not to mention, this thing has spread so you need a wider range of control. That means military troops.

I think they got overwhelmed. Not to mention, this thing has spread so you need a wider range of control. That means military troops.

France use it's military?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!:D

That is TOO Funny!:)

France use it's military?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!:D

That is TOO Funny!:)

Well they are in the Ivory Coast so yea they do use them :D

While I agree with you, I'm waiting for some of the Bush-whackers on this forum to say the same thing - I'm waiting for them to sound like Donald Rumsfeld.
What do you expect me to say? I don't want anyone to get hurt, and I expect that they won't try anything once the National Guard or something moves in.
Just because I disagree with "kill 'em all" tactics doesn't mean that I close my eyes to it when it's necessary to demonstrate force.

Ultimately, the constitutional state needs to make clear that violence is not the answer when you're after political change. It's that simple. Yes I think Sarkozy needs to resign, but that doesn't change anything in the short run either.

The reason it's such a cliche is because it's true. When was the last time France won a war without outside help? I think you have to go all the back to the Franco-Austrian War of 1859, when they barely managed to defeat the crumbling Austrian Empire. Even then they had help from Sardinia.
And you don't think that has anything to do with the fact that wars aren't being fought one-on-one anymore?

France use it's military?
Do your research, and you'll find that France is quite happy to use its forces to protect its interests and to help the UN along if necessary.
French troops are also currently serving alongside the US in Haiti and French Special Forces are helping taking out the remaining Taliban in Afghanistan.
Add to that the Kosovo as well as pretty much every other Peacekeeping Operation on the planet and you're pretty close.

And, by the way, France is (I believe) on 2nd place on the list of "Countries involved in the most wars in the 20th century" - right after Britain.

Well they are in the Ivory Coast so yea they do use them :D
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/sites/defense/english_contents/the_ministry_of_defence/operational_capabilities_and_action/operations_abroad/
It doesn't look like they count that as official French Military Operation, since it's running under the UN flag. But I'll be damned if I understood.

At any rate, France has plenty of capability to put this thing down in no time, they just have to send in a few tanks and I guarantee you that most rioters will stay at home for the night.

================================================

For Holy Womble and Aryavartha I have something nice today:
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-11-05T162619Z_01_SCH558991_RTRUKOC_0_UK-FRANCE-RIOTS-BLAME.xml
With every night that France's rundown suburbs burn, officials grow increasingly convinced that drug traffickers and Islamist militants are using frustrated youths to challenge law and order here.

And you don't think that has anything to do with the fact that wars aren't being fought one-on-one anymore?

Hey! Leave the facts at home! All we care about here is more ranting and more bullshit! Now jam a q-tip into your ear and stop making sense.

Do your research, and you'll find that France is quite happy to use its forces to protect its interests and to help the UN along if necessary.
French troops are also currently serving alongside the US in Haiti and French Special Forces are helping taking out the remaining Taliban in Afghanistan.
Add to that the Kosovo as well as pretty much every other Peacekeeping Operation on the planet and you're pretty close.

And, by the way, France is (I believe) on 2nd place on the list of "Countries involved in the most wars in the 20th century" - right after Britain.


http://www.defense.gouv.fr/sites/defense/english_contents/the_ministry_of_defence/operational_capabilities_and_action/operations_abroad/
It doesn't look like they count that as official French Military Operation, since it's running under the UN flag. But I'll be damned if I understood.

At any rate, France has plenty of capability to put this thing down in no time, they just have to send in a few tanks and I guarantee you that most rioters will stay at home for the night.

================================================

For Holy Womble and Aryavartha I have something nice today:
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-11-05T162619Z_01_SCH558991_RTRUKOC_0_UK-FRANCE-RIOTS-BLAME.xml

I couldnt help it ...:D

French Military History in a Nutshell

Gallic Wars: Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian.

Hundred Years War: Mostly lost, saved at last by a female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare - "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchmen."

Italian Wars: Lost. France becomes the first and only country ever to lose two wars when fighting Italians.

Wars of Religion: France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots.

Thirty Years' War: France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.

War of Devolution: Tied; Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.

The Dutch War: Tied.

War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War: Lost, but claimed as a tie. Deluded Frogophiles the world over label the period as the height of French Military Power.

War of the Spanish Succession: Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved ever since.

American Revolution: In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare: "France only wins when America does most of the fighting".

French Revolution: Won, primarily due to the fact that the opponent was also French.

The Napoleonic Wars: Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.

The Franco-Prussian War: Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

WWI: Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States.

WWII: Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.

War in Indochina: Lost. French forces plead sickness, take to bed with Dien Bien Flu.

Algerian Rebellion: Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a Western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare -"We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese, and Eskimos.

War on Terrorism: France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe

Riots underway for over 10 days, massive burning, wild violence - isn't this LA? This cannot POSSIBLY be a such a civilized nation as old France! No, everyone knows all those Europeans are so superior, cultured, and incapable of violence, (which I why we barbarous Americans have to save them every 50 years or so), and could not POSSIBLY commit such heinous acts! I call BS - must be photoshopped images of the LA riots sprinkled with Chernobyl!
BTW, shots fired at the French police, too - gun control sure works, doesn't it...

Bomb-making factory found by police...
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051106/D8DN0R7O0.html

1000 cars torched in one night...
http://reuters.myway.com/article/20051106/2005-11-06T121732Z_01_MAR227625_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-FRANCE-RIOTS-DC.html

Rioting now in the city center...
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/051106/1/3w86l.html

France told America that the US was pissing off Muslims with the "War on Terror", but which country is pissing Muslims off within its own borders enough to make home-brew jihadists?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9938333/site/newsweek/

"It's Baghdad here," the rioters shouted.

Very nice.

Well, if it's Baghdad there, the French should take the advice they gave us, and get out of Baghdad - get out of their own country and let the Islamic immigrants alone.

As an anti french Dutchie (I mean, the language! It sucks major ass!) I can just laugh. The French make a fool of themselves. Anyone remembers the French May?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_May

As an anti french Dutchie (I mean, the language! It sucks major ass!) I can just laugh. The French make a fool of themselves. Anyone remembers the French May?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_May

Yes, I remember it. Even in the United States, with our ostensibly mediocre education system, I learned about French May in elementary school.

Wow, and I thought only Americans had this L. Ron Hubbard-esque paranoid obcession to see France driven to marginalization and extinction. At least I'll know who'll be cheering if France gets bombed.

Wow, and I thought only Americans had this L. Ron Hubbard-esque paranoid obcession to see France driven to marginalization and extinction. At least I'll know who'll be cheering if France gets bombed.

I'll give you a hint - it's already happenning. Maybe the fact that the typical Frenchman seems not to have noticed - or at least not reacted in a way that would bring the rioting to a stop - is indicative of that upcoming extinction.

Great job on your policy with Muslims, though. Bring them by the millions to your own country, treat them with French racism, warehouse them in public housing, deny them jobs, and watch them set your country on fire.

Which side, the French police or the French citizenry?

In any case, if the French government calls in the CRS (State Security Police Force), the riots will probably get crushed very quickly. Besides, Britain suffered its own riots of late in the North, and the US didn't do so well during the Hurricane Katrina violence, so I wouldn't downplay the nature of the situation without knowing the broader causes for those riots in the first place.

Wait, why are you bringing Katarina's violence into this? Those guys were trying to survive and most of the populace sympathized and are STILL pissed off that our government boned people over hardcore.

This is more akin... but far worse than the L.A. riot situation. It calmed down after a while though. I think this may to unless it gets far more organized yet de-centralized. This riot thing is a whole different animal, but similar to the civil rights era in the US.

The good thing that may come out of these riots, is French citizenry may finally get rid of the racist crap they pull. I have to say, I agree with the rioters. If I was in their crappy position, revolution is your only real recourse. Because in their situation, your damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Wow, and I thought only Americans had this L. Ron Hubbard-esque paranoid obcession to see France driven to marginalization and extinction. At least I'll know who'll be cheering if France gets bombed.

I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know who your referencing, but I think in a larger sense, this riot thing is going to be beneficial down the line for France because of the change it will force. So some cars are being burned by the french elite or middle class. Wow. Such a huge national investment there that will take centurys to replace. Yes, people are dying, but a lot of the french citizenry drove such anger to murderous levels similar to any other country who treats people like crap.

I shouldn't need to remind you that the America's civil rights era was an age of huge racial turmoil similar to these riots. And that wasn't even nearly as bad as the US civil war which it survived. I SERIOUSLY doubt France is going to be going extinct or marginalized because of this. That is ludicrous bs'ing on your part. The country survived WW2, WW1, Hundred years war, french/indian, and other etc wars that it miraculously survived. This is NOWHERE nearly as threatening to the country's future because it is by French citizens upset but injustice and racial problems that are bred into french citizens.

Just because they are burning national symbols doesn't mean they are going to annihiliate the country of France. People burn national symbols in protest ALL THE GODDAMNED TIME. Seriously, you can't go 2 seconds without someone in the world burning the US flag all over the world, including protests in the US.

Great job on your policy with Muslims, though. Bring them by the millions to your own country, treat them with French racism, warehouse them in public housing, deny them jobs, and watch them set your country on fire.

Of course America did the same thing with blacks in the history of its existence and the same thing pretty much happened (Watts, Los Angeles) but the United States is nowhere near being ashes now is it? Sorry to disappoint but France has been around longer than America and it's not about to go extinct for a very, very long time.

Of course America did the same thing with blacks in the history of its existence and the same thing pretty much happened (Watts, Los Angeles) but the United States is nowhere near being ashes now is it? Sorry to disappoint but France has been around longer than America and it's not about to go extinct for a very, very long time.

Oh blast.. seems I need to read the whole thread. Ah, to hell with it. Sorry about the mix up there.

I think it's got to the point where they need need to change tactics. Tear gas and plastic bullets aren't working. I think the only way to deal with this now is to send troops in and use live ammunition. I'm sure just a handful of dead rioters would go a long way to deter anybody else.

I think it's got to the point where they need need to change tactics. Tear gas and plastic bullets aren't working. I think the only way to deal with this now is to send troops in and use live ammunition. I'm sure just a handful of dead rioters would go a long way to deter anybody else.

And if the French did that, there will be even more outrage in the streets and around the world too. Shooting "civilians" :eek:

I agree with you 100% though.

Of course America did the same thing with blacks in the history of its existence and the same thing pretty much happened (Watts, Los Angeles) but the United States is nowhere near being ashes now is it? Sorry to disappoint but France has been around longer than America and it's not about to go extinct for a very, very long time.

None of the US riots have ever been on this scale. None of them ever lasted this long either, or occurred in such a widespread area over such a long period of time.

Care to try again to make a comparison?

None of the US riots have ever been on this scale. None of them ever lasted this long either, or occurred in such a widespread area over such a long period of time.

Care to try again to make a comparison?

Watt's riots were worse.

Watt's riots were worse.
I beg to differ. My family lived in the suburbs of LA at the time.

The Watts riots lasted six days. The current French riots are now at 10.

It was confined to the Watts neighborhood - it didn't spread over Southern California. The Paris rioting is spreading.

During the riots, 34 people were officially reported killed, 1,100 people were injured, 4,000 people were arrested, 600 buildings were damaged or destroyed, and an estimated $100 million in damage was caused.

We don't have damage estimates yet from the French riots, but you've had several nights were buildings were burned, people set on fire, and thousands of cars burned.

I beg to differ. My family lived in the suburbs of LA at the time.

The Watts riots lasted six days. The current French riots are now at 10.

It was confined to the Watts neighborhood - it didn't spread over Southern California. The Paris rioting is spreading.

During the riots, 34 people were officially reported killed, 1,100 people were injured, 4,000 people were arrested, 600 buildings were damaged or destroyed, and an estimated $100 million in damage was caused.

We don't have damage estimates yet from the French riots, but you've had several nights were buildings were burned, people set on fire, and thousands of cars burned.


If they keep burning shopping centers and schools at this rate every night, you've going way over the damage level of Watts already.

In the Normandy city of Evreux, five police officers and three firefighters were injured when two schools, a post office, a shopping center and 50 cars were burned, Hamon said. A child care center was burned in Lille in northern France.

Two schools in Grigny, south of Paris, were set ablaze and firefighters responded to 30 reports of arson in Toulouse, in southern France, the Interior Ministry said. Several cars were on fire and several trash cans were burning outside public buildings.

A cultural center in the central city of Nantes was destroyed by fire, and a youth hostel burned in Paris, the ministry said.

As I've indicated before, this is all a cunning french plan. They are letting this escalate out of control, so when they finally intervene with extreme force, they'll be able to claim that they had no other choice.

Don't be fooled by the gitane smoking ennui that the french affect. They know what they are doing.

As I've indicated before, this is all a cunning french plan. They are letting this escalate out of control, so when they finally intervene with extreme force, they'll be able to claim that they had no other choice.

Don't be fooled by the gitane smoking ennui that the french affect. They know what they are doing.

I always thought it was those blue pack Gauloise - the ones that crackle like kindling when you light them and make your clothes smell like a dog's ass.

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/051106/w110626.html

I'm sure the French feel safer already. Chirac has "called a meeting".

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/051106/w110626.html

I'm sure the French feel safer already. Chirac has "called a meeting".

Is he taking a page from the UN Playbook? If there's trouble call a meeting to decide what to do next since your original plan failed?

Is he taking a page from the UN Playbook? If there's trouble call a meeting to decide what to do next since your original plan failed?
Well, they could just go in and shoot everyone... and then be lambasted on here for being 'hypocritical', shooting civilians... blah blah blah. Martial law, sending in the army etc are last resorts. Not the first. Shoot first ask questions later eh?

Well, they could just go in and shoot everyone... and then be lambasted on here for being 'hypocritical', shooting civilians... blah blah blah. Martial law, sending in the army etc are last resorts. Not the first. Shoot first ask questions later eh?

Since these riots have been going on for a week and a half, I think we are past talking.

It is time for martial law to be declared and the troops to come in.

Since these riots have been going on for a week and a half, I think we are past talking.

It is time for martial law to be declared and the troops to come in.

And then what do you think will happen?

A: A lot of people will die- innocents and policemen too.
B: Alienation, percieved ethnic targeting and heavy handedness.
C: Resentment.
D: Growth of extremism and some minorities truning moreso to extreme groups- religious probably, to vent this resentment.

Good solution Corneliu!
'But the riots will stop'
"Yeah, for now. Worse things will happen in a few years."
'Not my problem, deal with it then'.

Like I said. Good solution.

And then what do you think will happen?

A: A lot of people will die- innocents and policemen too.
B: Alienation, percieved ethnic targeting and heavy handedness.
C: Resentment.
D: Growth of extremism and some minorities truning moreso to extreme groups- religious probably, to vent this resentment.

Good solution Corneliu!
'But the riots will stop'
"Yeah, for now. Worse things will happen in a few years."
'Not my problem, deal with it then'.

Like I said. Good solution.

Ok then! How would you stop the rioting? The Riot Police and their equipment are doing a crappy job of stopping it so how would you stop it?

Ok then! How would you stop the rioting? The Riot Police and their equipment are doing a crappy job of stopping it so how would you stop it?

Meh... if I was in charge? Well, a lot would be different :p :p
Listen. Riots are the last outburst of the unheard.

Violence only begets violence.

Meh... if I was in charge? Well, a lot would be different :p :p
Listen- riots are the last outburst of the unheard.

Violence only begets violence.

In other words, you have no idea short of what I and others have been saying.

Meh... if I was in charge? Well, a lot would be different :p :p
Listen. Riots are the last outburst of the unheard.

Violence only begets violence.
How about starting by clamping down on ghettorization?
And racism?
What about at least trying to mix the ethnic representation in the schools?
Or how about doing something drastic to employ people in the suburbs?
What about repealing all the atheist-by-force initiatives?

There's a long-ass list of things that can be done & they will work if a significant part of them are done & done now.

In other words, you have no idea short of what I and others have been saying.
Beating the living shit out of people solves nothing. It only creates problems, if not now- in the very near future.

I point to the Troubles in Northern Ireland as an example. If you send in the troops to conduct security- innocent people die- and creates a whole heap o' shit later on.

Find out what caused the riots- not the spark- the root causes. Redress the poverty and ghettoisation of immigrants. This will also help the fight against the propagation of extremist groups.

Begin treating them like you say everyone should be treated- like equals.

Alienated people are dangerous.

Tim McVeigh is an example of this alienation.

Beating the living shit out of people solves nothing. It only creates problems, if not now- in the very near future.

I point to the Troubles in Northern Ireland as an example. If you send in the troops to conduct security- innocent people die- and creates a whole heap o' shit later on.

Find out what caused the riots- not the spark- the root causes. Redress the poverty and ghettoisation of immigrants. This will also help the fight against the propagation of extremist groups.

Begin treating them like you say everyone should be treated- like equals.

Alienated people are dangerous.

Tim McVeigh.

We're in a middle of a Riot in Paris that is SPREADING!!!!! Riot police are overwhelmed. They haven't stopped the rioting. The only thing left to do is to establish a curfew and declare Martial Law. That is the only option left from what I'm seeing coming out of Paris.

Once the Rioting ends then they should all talk. Right now, I wouldn't want to talk to anyone in a middle of a riot. I would end it first before doing that.

And why would you want to stop the riots?
You've already chosen your side, but try to think a little more democratically and listen before you go to war.
Those youngsters (not all immigrants BTW) may have a point.

The BBC reports are misleading. Yes those riots happens mainly (not only) in immigrant areas, but not all rioters are immigrants.

And why would you want to stop the riots?
You've already chosen your side, but try to think a little more democratically and listen before you go to war.
Those youngsters may have a point.

You don't get your point across with violence. Its a good way to turn people off of what your trying to bring attention too.

You don't get your point across with violence. Its a good way to turn people off of what your trying to bring attention too.

Yet you advocate violence as a response!:confused:

You don't get your point across with violence. Its a good way to turn people off of what your trying to bring attention too.
And yet you are suggesting using violence against rioters.
Violence is the only way to bring your point across. Why would anyone listen to some young scum singing hip hop in their ghetto?
Note those riots are a response to police violence in the first place.

Yet you advocate violence as a response!:confused:

Apparently you know absolutely nothing about riot control.

And yet you are suggesting using violence against rioters.
Violence is the only way to bring your point across. Why would anyone listen to some young scum singing hip hop in their ghetto?

You have riots that are spreading. Riot police can't seem to stop it. How would you stop the riots that is going on?

Apparently you know absolutely nothing about riot control.

The irony of your previous statement seems to have shot totally over your head, hasn't it?! :eek:

You have riots that are spreading. Riot police can't seem to stop it. How would you stop the riots that is going on?
Why would you want to stop it?
The feodal system ended thanks to riots in the french revolution in 1789.
The french people like riots as a way to move things. It is our culture. And we don't like orders coming from the top.

You have riots that are spreading. Riot police can't seem to stop it. How would you stop the riots that is going on?
You know, you're right.

Send in the troops- and lets hope this doesn't happen again....

http://www.mapageweb.umontreal.ca/brodeuj/documents/images/bloody%20sunday%202.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/sceptred_isle/images/bloody_sunday.jpg
http://www.infosatellite.com/images/articlepics/bloodysunday.gif

Why would you want to stop it?

Maybe perhaps it is to protect those that are caught in the middle of the rioting that have nothing to do with what is going on? To protect property as well perhaps?

The feodal system ended thanks to riots in the french revolution in 1789.

AKA the French Revolution that was actually inspired by the American Revolution.

The french people like riots as a way to move things. It is our culture. And we don't like orders coming from the top.

I don't like seeing people who have nothing to do with this get hurt and I don't like destruction of private property either. It is time to end this madness.

You know, you're right.

Send in the troops- and lets hope this doesn't happen again....

Sometimes it is the only way to stop violence is to send in the troops.

Sarkozy should resign. He is the one responsible for the "violence". The rioters didn't kill anybody. Sarkozy did. We have had enough of him. He is an immigrant himself. He should go back to where he come from (but they wouldn't want him). Immigrants are welcome, but we don't need that kind of scum here.

Brutally repress the fools, oh, and imprison some as an example. They have broken the law, caused considerable property damage, and transgressed upon the lives of innocents. I have no concerns for their "disadvantaged" position, it is hardly oppressive, and they ought to be suppressed with contempt.

Sarkozy should resign. He is the one responsible for the "violence". The rioters didn't kill anybody. Sarkozy did. We have had enough of him. He is an immigrant himself. He should go back to where he come from (but they wouldn't want him). Immigrants are welcome, but we don't need that kind of scum here.

Sure! Blame it on one person and not those that are actually doing the rioting. :rolleyes:

Sometimes it is the only way to stop violence is to send in the troops.

In reference to those pictures, you're an idiot Corneliu. I had some respect for you- you argue well.

But arguing that Bloody Sunday was justified- you're an out and out idiot.

I say send in teh troops, they arent doing anything else except training to my knowledge, finally a good reason that the french didnt go to war with iraq! send them in adn end it quick!

In reference to those pictures, you're an idiot Corneliu. I had some respect for you- you argue well.

But arguing that Bloody Sunday was justified- you're an out and out idiot.

Frankly, I don't care about the past (which is saying something since I am a history major) WHat I care about right now is the Fact that these riots are SPREADING!!! Is that not getting through your skull?

When riots spread as they have in France, it means the situation is now out of control. It is one thing to have it localized (paris) its another thing to have it spread. Since it has spread, it is time to take drastic measures to quell it.

So I'll ask you one more time! How would you stop the riots?

Maybe perhaps it is to protect those that are caught in the middle of the rioting that have nothing to do with what is going on? To protect property as well perhaps?And what do you think about those who don't have private property? Who is to protect them?
People dying everyday and what you care about is the cars?

AKA the French Revolution that was actually inspired by the American Revolution.WTF is this shit? Don't bring your american ultra-nationalism here please. America didn't exist as a country before the revolution.

I don't like seeing people who have nothing to do with this get hurt and I don't like destruction of private property either. It is time to end this madness.
Yes it's high time to end this shit. Let Sarkozy resign. We're sick of his anti-social politics.

It is one thing to have it localized (paris) its another thing to have it spread. Since it has spread, it is time to take drastic measures to quell it.
As far as I know, they didn't start out in Paris to begin with. It was in the suburbs, and it is very likely that these riots will stay there - in the poor neighbourhoods.
However, I don't believe it is possible to stop the riots with the troops, after all it is a 'free' country (imagine what people's reactions would be if the army were to take over your town because some people decided to start putting cars on fire.
That said, I have no idea how to put an end to the riots.

And what do you think about those who don't have private property? Who is to protect them?

That would be the government. However when their lives are endanger due to the riots, it is the Government's responsibility to DEFEND HER CITIZENS!!!! Chirac isn't doing that in case you haven't been following. Instead of getting better, the situation has worsen.

People dying everyday and what you care about is the cars?

:confused: where did this come from?

WTF is this shit? Don't bring your american ultra-nationalism here please. America didn't exist as a country before the revolution.

True. And I thank the French for helping us achieve our independence. However, the French Revolution of 1789 was inspired by the American Revolution of 1775-1783. Just like the Haitian Slavery revolt was also inspired by it.

Yes it's high time to end this shit. Let Sarkozy resign. We're sick of his anti-social politics.

It is time to stop the rioters. A resignation isn't going to stop the rioting and you damn well know it.

Sure! Blame it on one person and not those that are actually doing the rioting. :rolleyes:
You don't get it at all coz you're blind. I don't blame Sarkozy for the rioting. I blame him for his criminal antisocial politics which is actually killing many people everyday (unlike the rioters who are just burning cars to protest).
But you only care about that "private property" you only talk about. People dying is secondary.

That said, I have no idea how to put an end to the riots.

I, however, do. The military. Try setting fire to an advancing tank, bloody immigrants.

As far as I know, they didn't start out in Paris to begin with. It was in the suburbs, and it is very likely that these riots will stay there - in the poor neighbourhoods.

It has spread to other cities.

However, I don't believe it is possible to stop the riots with the troops, after all it is a 'free' country (imagine what people's reactions would be if the army were to take over your town because some people decided to start putting cars on fire.

I'd welcome them. I know that those troops will protect me from the hooligans who are doing the rioting.

That said, I have no idea how to put an end to the riots.

Well riot police aren't doing it and that is their job. Since they can't. What is the next option?

You don't get it at all coz you're blind.

Actually no. I'm not the one that is blind. I'm an outsider looking in. That gives me a somewhat better perspective than an insider.

I don't blame Sarkozy for the rioting. I blame him for his criminal antisocial politics which is actually killing many people everyday (unlike the rioters who are just burning cars to protest).

And yet you blame those that are getting killed out there on him. You can't have this both ways. Either he is responsible or he isn't.

But you only care about that "private property" you only talk about. People dying is secondary.

I guess you didn't read what I want. Not surprising really.

"Maybe perhaps it is to protect those that are caught in the middle of the rioting that have nothing to do with what is going on?"

That would be the government. However when their lives are endanger due to the riots, it is the Government's responsibility to DEFEND HER CITIZENS!!!!

Now I will ask politely for an apology.

:sniper: He sniped you there.

That would be the government. However when their lives are endanger due to the riots, it is the Government's responsibility to DEFEND HER CITIZENS!!!! Chirac isn't doing that in case you haven't been following. Instead of getting better, the situation has worsen.In case you don't know, Chirac's responsibilities are mainly foreign politics (and naming ministers). Sarkozy is interior minister.

:confused: where did this come from?
Poverty is killing people everyday in many countries. Sarkozy closed Sangatte and is applying an anti-immigrant/antisocial policy which is killing people. His repressive policy is also killing. The two young who were fleeing police thought they were safer in the electric station that at the hand of the police.

It is time to stop the rioters. A resignation isn't going to stop the rioting and you damn well know it.
You damn don't know what you are talking about.
The familly of the 2 people you died refused to meet Sarkozy and most rioters are asking for Sarkozy to resign.

In case you don't know, Chirac's responsibilities are mainly foreign politics (and naming ministers). Sarkozy is interior minister.

That he maybe however it doesn't matter if he is or is not the interior minister. Since Chirac is the head of the country, it is his responsibility as well as that of the Interior Minister.

Poverty is killing people everyday in many countries. Sarkozy closed Sangatte and is applying an anti-immigrant/antisocial policy which is killing people. His repressive policy is also killing. The two young who were fleeing police thought they were safer in the electric station that at the hand of the police.

And there deaths is what sparked the rioting. It wasn't anything Sarkozy did. The rioters took an incident of 2 young muslims fleeing the cops and got fried because of their stupidity. Now you have a riot that has been going on for 10 days with no end in sight.

You damn don't know what you are talking about.

Actually I do. Your just to blind to understand it.

The familly of the 2 people who died refused to meet Sarkozy and most rioters are asking for Sarkozy to resign.

I wouldn't resign because of this incident. It isn't his fault that the riots occured. About time you figure that out.

Actually no. I'm not the one that is blind. I'm an outsider looking in. That gives me a somewhat better perspective than an insider.
I don't think so.

And yet you blame those that are getting killed out there on him. You can't have this both ways. Either he is responsible or he isn't.
The problem is not the riot. The problem is his policy.

I guess you didn't read what I want. Not surprising really.
Now I will ask politely for an apology.
The rioters are burning cars. There has been no killing from the side of the rioters.

In case you don't know, Chirac's responsibilities are mainly foreign politics (and naming ministers). Sarkozy is interior minister.
Poverty is killing people everyday in many countries. Sarkozy closed Sangatte and is applying an anti-immigrant/antisocial policy which is killing people. His repressive policy is also killing. The two young who were fleeing police thought they were safer in the electric station that at the hand of the police.

My word, the first European minister to actualy discern that the majority of the populace are opposed to an influx of degenerate immigrants who fail to contribute to society. Can you contend one reason, beyond the nauseating one of altruism, why any nation should now acept immigrants upon a wide scale?

You damn don't know what you are talking about.
The familly of the 2 people you died refused to meet Sarkozy and most rioters are asking for Sarkozy to resign.

A state does not, nor should it, acquiese to the demands of strikers and rioters, since it ilustrates its incompetance and weekness. The greatest British prime minister since the wartime churchill, Thatcher, opposed and suppressed the miners for the good of the nation. One does not pander to rioting r strikes, one crushes them.

Well heres another example of the [SIZE="7"]FUCKING="Arial Black"][/FONT] french being the little sissies that they are!!!!! Well next thing you know the french will be calling the americans for because they can't kill those little BASTARDS themselves!!!:sniper: :mp5: :gundge: The stupid prime minister should kick his own ASS for bad-mouthing because we won't send nobody to help nobody in FUCKING france.:headbang:

I don't think so.
The problem is not the riot. The problem is his policy.

The problem sure is hell is the rioting.

The rioters are burning cars. There has been no killing from the side of the rioters.

That you know of.

I'm still waiting for my apology.

That he maybe however it doesn't matter if he is or is not the interior minister. Since Chirac is the head of the country, it is his responsibility as well as that of the Interior Minister.
As an outsider, you don't like Chirac. I have no problem with him. Sarkozy is the one who is incompetent.

And there deaths is what sparked the rioting. It wasn't anything Sarkozy did. The rioters took an incident of 2 young muslims fleeing the cops and got fried because of their stupidity. Now you have a riot that has been going on for 10 days with no end in sight.

Actually I do. Your just to blind to understand it.

I wouldn't resign because of this incident. It isn't his fault that the riots occured. About time you figure that out.
It not only about the two people who died. You may not know it but there was violence in Paris suburbs long before this incident. They burnt buses in Toulouse 2 years ago as well. People are protesting since Sarkozy is minister.
That incident is only the latest and the riots are only bigger.

As an outsider, you don't like Chirac. I have no problem with him. Sarkozy is the one who is incompetent.

Your right. I don't and now he is giving me another reason why. However, he must see that the riot police haven't quelled the riots yet. That only leaves one option left.

It not only about the two people who died. You may not know it but there was violence in Paris suburbs long before this incident.

So I have been following. However, now you have a full fledge riot because of 2 deaths.

They burnt buses in Toulouse 2 years ago as well. People are protesting since Sarkozy is minister.
That incident is only the latest and the riots are only bigger.

And on a much wider scale. It is nice to see you enjoy public disorder and don't want to see this quelled. I'm hoping Chirac sees reason and stops this with the only option he has left.

The problem sure is hell is the rioting.That not a problem as big as Sarkozy.

That you know of.WTF? Are you aware of someone who died in the riots?

I'm still waiting for my apology.
For what?

That not a problem as big as Sarkozy.
WTF? Are you aware of someone who died in the riots?

We're dealing with a government that doesn't want bad press. Do you honestly think they'll let a death toll out?

For what?

For your inaccurate statement regarding property being number 1 over citizens. I'm still waiting for an apology.

Your right. I don't and now he is giving me another reason why. However, he must see that the riot police haven't quelled the riots yet. That only leaves one option left.

So I have been following. However, now you have a full fledge riot because of 2 deaths.

And on a much wider scale. It is nice to see you enjoy public disorder and don't want to see this quelled. I'm hoping Chirac sees reason and stops this with the only option he has left.
Which order are you talking about? Fascism? No thanks. I'd rather have some cars burning and some freedom than clean streets in rich areas and mass killing in poor areas.

Which order are you talking about? Fascism? No thanks. I'd rather have some cars burning and some freedom than clean streets in rich areas and mass killing in poor areas.

Who said anything about Fascism? Not me nor anyone else on this thread. However, I do believe in law and order and right now, you don't have that where the rioters are at. The Riot Police haven't been able to stop it.

So tell me, do you support the rioters?

We're dealing with a government that doesn't want bad press. Do you honestly think they'll let a death toll out?

And that the least they can do. We don't have a democracy yet, but if the government didn't even care about what the people think that would be outright fascism.
There has been no death from the rioters. If there is death, it will be from the police.

For your inaccurate statement regarding property being number 1 over citizens. I'm still waiting for an apology.
Apologies for whatever I misunderstood.

Who said anything about Fascism? Not me nor anyone else on this thread. However, I do believe in law and order and right now, you don't have that where the rioters are at. The Riot Police haven't been able to stop it.

So tell me, do you support the rioters?
I do support the rioters and that law we have I don't believe in.
BTW Chirac has never been elected. Sarkozy even less than Chirac.

I do support the rioters and that law we have I don't believe in.

That's all I needed to know. So you are supporting the chaos that is running rampant. You support vandalism that is taking place. You support the fact that civilians are endanger because of their rioting.

That's all I needed to know. So you are supporting the chaos that is running rampant. You support vandalism that is taking place. You support the fact that civilians are endanger because of their rioting.

Am I the only person that imagines that if the rioters were french, and upper class, Psylos would deplorwe them.

In case you don't know, Chirac's responsibilities are mainly foreign politics (and naming ministers). Sarkozy is interior minister..

Which means that Chirac is responsible for everything Sarkozy does.

That's all I needed to know. So you are supporting the chaos that is running rampant. You support vandalism that is taking place. You support the fact that civilians are endanger because of their rioting.
That's not what I said. I want apoligies.
There is chaos since Sarkozy is minister. He condemned the police in Toulouse for trying to help the youngters to integrate. He said it was not the mission of the police and that they should do the represion instead (that is his policy).

There has been no death from the rioters....

...That you *know* of! Wait until this is over before you say that.

Am I the only person that imagines that if the rioters were french, and upper class, Psylos would deplorwe them.
The rioters are mostly french. And you are probably right about the upper class. They have nothing to riot about. They have all the privileges.

That's not what I said. I want apoligies.

You support the rioters. Since you do, you are, in essence, supporting what they are doing.

Not to mention the fact that you stated that they shouldn't be put down.

Which means that Chirac is responsible for everything Sarkozy does.
You are probably right. Chirac was never elected anyway.
But it is more a UMP problem. You may not know but Sarkozy is the enemy of Chirac. He just doesn't know how to get rid of him (because he is popular in his party).

The rioters are mostly french. And you are probably right about the upper class. They have nothing to riot about. They have all the privileges.

Are first generation and second generation immigrants who make no attempt to ingratiate themselves with French culture French?

I am willing to wager that the degenerate fools could find employment if they wanted, merely not precisely what they envisaged. Why should we accept and condone such transgressions, merely due to a little poor circumstance? The middle classes our oppressed econmically by Gordon Brown, yet do they riot and burn cars? No

You support the rioters. Since you do, you are, in essence, supporting what they are doing.

Not to mention the fact that you stated that they shouldn't be put down.
I don't agree that they are making chaos. The chaos was there before.

I don't agree that they are making chaos. The chaos was there before.

Do cars generally spontaneously combust in France then?

I don't agree that they are making chaos. The chaos was there before.

*sighs*

and you call me blind.

They sure as hell are causing chaos.

Are first generation and second generation immigrants who make no attempt to ingratiate themselves with French culture French?First off the rioters are not necessarily immigrants. You are getting that from your biased press. And you biased press is saying that the riots started in immigrant-domminated area, not that the immigrants started the riots. And the riots spreaded long beyond that area.
Anyway yes they are french. And even if they weren't that wouldn't make a difference. They have their rights and those rights are universal.

I don't agree that they are making chaos. The chaos was there before.

They are americans. They won't understand.

Do cars generally spontaneously combust in France then?Some cars burning is not chaos. People dying of hunger after the closing of Sangatte is chaos.

They are americans. They won't understand.

I understand riots and this statement is inflamatory.

Well this just goes to show something. What it shows I have no idea but it shows it all right.:confused:

Yes, I remember it. Even in the United States, with our ostensibly mediocre education system, I learned about French May in elementary school.
The reason u were told about the french student insurection of "Mai 68", is simply a way for america, led by our enlightened leader Mr Bush, to compensate for the sheer shiteness of our education system. The only way we can trick ourselves ito belieing that we are not a third world contry for about 30% of our population is to look at other contries ( not just Canada) and make fun of them.
it is pathetic!!!!
The way we are made to think that our contry is the best in the world is only an illusion of the successiv governements. Let's face it within 50 years China will be pooping on our face...
U fail at life (when applicable)

I understand riots and this statement is inflamatory.
As opposed to the last 12 pages of anti french racism of the poorest quality...

As opposed to the last 12 pages of anti french racism of the poorest quality...

French Racism? Oh brother! This couldn't be so far from the truth.

The rioters are mostly french. And you are probably right about the upper class. They have nothing to riot about. They have all the privileges.

They have cake .

They have cake .

"We're going to take you and the Queen. Down to the guatine. And when that fella there is through, with what he's gonna do, you'll have no place to wear your crown" :D

"We're going to take you and the Queen. Down to the guatine. And when that fella there is through, with what he's gonna do, you'll have no place to wear your crown" :D


What the hell is a guatine?

What the hell is a guatine?

Gilitine? I can't spell it.

French Racism? Oh brother! This couldn't be so far from the truth.

"We're going to take you and the Queen. Down to the guatine. And when that fella there is through, with what he's gonna do, you'll have no place to wear your crown" :D

Wow, just contradicting yourself on the same page.

I, however, do. The military. Try setting fire to an advancing tank, bloody immigrants.
Chris, uhm, with some easily available supplies and a little bit of knowledge, you can build a set of weapons and use them so as to set not only an armored vehicle but its crew on fire, as well. Armor doesn't fight well when its crew is buttoned up, especially in an urban area. And France isn't going to Grozny-ize its own territory the way Russia did, so urban warfare it must be.

It's all too easy for a tank to be damaged or crippled in close combat, if the people fighting are dedicated. I've seen nothing to indicate that they are tactically stupid (strategically stupid, yes). And we've seen, all over the world, what happens to the crew of a fighting vehicle when they dismount into a crowd of people who have been just trying to kill them. They get ripped limb from limb. (Hell, some places that happens to people who make a wrong turn, to say nothing of driving a tank through a rioting neighborhood.)

I'm a lover of peace and all that, and nonetheless there are times that a nation's got to bring lethal force to bear on its own people. It's tragic, not only because of what it says about the relationship between a government and its populace, but also because of the sheer number who will die, among the rioters and among the soldiers.

Popular insurgencies are always horrible.

Now, the fact that it happened to the French doesn't bother me so much. I may be left of center here in the US, but my time spent in France was laden with religious discrimination. It's gotten bad enough that I have to admit that Ariel Sharon (no matter how much I despise him as a human being) was right when he said, "France is becoming a haven for anti-semitism." It's also a haven for other kinds of religious discrimination. Plus, Muslim kids have been going around beating up people in local Jewish communities, and the police haven't lifted a finger. Hating Jews has always been a popular Continental pastime, so this is nothing new.

So on the one hand I feel pity and sympathy for the people caught up in this. But on the other hand, I can think only that they, living in a more or less free culture of ideas and politics, have brought it upon themselves. The only thing I'll grant them is that I won't cheer while parts of France burn.

Edit: it's "guillotine".

They have cake.
Is it worth noting that what they have is not cake but brioche?

....
You forgot to say that the french hate america and your freedom and that they are Saddam lovers.

I'm not sure if you are trolling or just stupid.

Wow, just contradicting yourself on the same page.

Apparently someone doesn't like comedy!